Hi everyone
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Bringing 'presence' to it, like everything will be seen when light shines into a dark room. So all pre-conscious identifications will be revealed and destroyed. But yet it is not really "doing", because it is not by effort.Originally posted by Cenarious:What can you do about something pre-conscious? -
Not exactly so. For explanation sake, I will call it a ‘bond’ (7th consciousness).Originally posted by An Eternal Now:on one hand, it is true as spiritual development unfolds, one becomes less caught up by thoughts. But the bondage that binds us - like a hypnotic bond - is subtle and pre-conscious (meaning it is there whether we think or not). In fact in john's stage one experience, the sense of 'i am' is a sense of self that is beyond thoughts. It is very subtle, like i said, 7th consciousness is pre-conscious. The rest of the journey is deepening the realisation, loosening the bond.
That moment, that experience, that pure sense of existence is not 'Self', there is no 'Self'. That 'bond' is temporary suspended, it is not in operation for a while. Then very quickly recognition came, the act of recognition due to the subtle bond makes us think that it is a 'self'. It becomes "I AM".
It is pre-conscious but it is not unbreakable, it only blinds. It is just a seed. You can also plant other seeds through visualization, concentration...and so forth.
Don't have to worry too much about naturalness first. When the 'bond' loosens, it naturally shines. 'I' is the root cause of all artificialities.
The 'bond' operates through symbols and labels. Mindfulness is the technique of going beyond this layer.
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I see..Originally posted by Thusness:Not exactly so. For explanation sake, I will call it a ‘bond’ (7th consciousness).
That moment, that experience, that pure sense of existence is not 'Self', there is no 'Self'. That 'bond' is temporary suspended, it is not in operation for a while. Then very quickly recognition came, the act of recognition due to the subtle bond makes us think that it is a 'self'. It becomes "I AM".
It is pre-conscious but it is not unbreakable, it only blinds. It is just a seed. You can also plant other seeds through visualization, concentration...and so forth.
Don't have to worry too much about naturalness first. When the 'bond' loosens, it naturally shines. 'I' is the root cause of all artificialities.
The 'bond' operates through symbols and labels. Mindfulness is the technique of going beyond this layer. Sorry i phrased v. badly.. i wanted to say that it is believed that there is an "i am" that is beyond thought, i.e the eternal watcher (but the thought 'i am' is already a thought). Because the 7th consciousness is still not completely destroyed even after the experience of 'pure sense of existence'.. -
i hav heard such explanation from a monk during one of the dharma talk .ThnksOriginally posted by Thusness:Not exactly so. For explanation sake, I will call it a ‘bond’ (7th consciousness).
That moment, that experience, that pure sense of existence is not 'Self', there is no 'Self'. That 'bond' is temporary suspended, it is not in operation for a while. Then very quickly recognition came, the act of recognition due to the subtle bond makes us think that it is a 'self'. It becomes "I AM".
It is pre-conscious but it is not unbreakable, it only blinds. It is just a seed. You can also plant other seeds through visualization, concentration...and so forth.
Don't have to worry too much about naturalness first. When the 'bond' loosens, it naturally shines. 'I' is the root cause of all artificialities.
The 'bond' operates through symbols and labels. Mindfulness is the technique of going beyond this layer.
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Dear Thusness,
Hi JonLS,
I am completely overwhelmed with what you wrote here.
Whatever you experienced and whatever you said is right. It is the degree of clarity. Do not have doubt about these experiences. The way Presence is unfolding in you is amazingÂ…Perhaps your life experiences has helped in the rapid unfolding. It is the thoroughness of being nobody.
For the purpose of discussion, I would like to introduce you one concept, it is the "seed of pre-conscious propensities";. It is a layer of ‘bond’ that prevents us from ‘seeing’ something…it is very subtle, very thin, very fine…it goes almost undetected. What this ‘bond’ does is it prevents us from ‘seeing’ what “WITNESS” really is and makes us constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center . Every moment we want to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is habitual and almost hypnotic.
But what exactly is this “witness” we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It is the appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source! Including the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is really it. There is nothing to choose.
There is no mirror reflecting
Manifestation alone IS.
There is no invisible witness hiding anywhere. Whenever we attempt to fall back to this “an invisible transparent image “, it is again the mind game of thought. It is the ‘bond’ at work. I wonder this make sense to you.
When I was reading this the first time, I read the phrase "the Appearance is the Source!" and all hell broke loose within. There was instant recognition of what was written and a simultaneous explosive expansion of energy. This was quite painful, but the pain was totally irrelevant. It took me at least 15 minutes to recover from the initial event, there was a great deal of crying and an overwhelming sense that there was a tremendous "letting go".
I knew before reading this that there was no witness, I had heard Tony Parsons speak of this, but your post somehow opened the floodgates and for that I truly thank you.
The witness is the appearance is the source.
All is One.
Nothing could be more simple.
Thank you again.
Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are One. -
Wow.. congrats.. that must have been a tremendous insight.Originally posted by JonLS:Dear Thusness,
I am completely overwhelmed with what you wrote here.
When I was reading this the first time, I read the phrase "the Appearance is the Source!" and all hell broke loose within. There was instant recognition of what was written and a simultaneous explosive expansion of energy. This was quite painful, but the pain was totally irrelevant. It took me at least 15 minutes to recover from the initial event, there was a great deal of crying and an overwhelming sense that there was a tremendous "letting go".
I knew before reading this that there was no witness, I had heard Tony Parsons speak of this, but your post somehow opened the floodgates and for that I truly thank you.
The witness is the appearance is the source.
All is One.
Nothing could be more simple.
Thank you again.
Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are One.
there was a great deal of crying and an overwhelming sense that there was a tremendous "letting go".
I was just telling a friend a quote by Ajahn Chah a while ago,
Do not try to become anything.
Do not make yourself into anything.
Do not be a meditator.
Do not become enlightened.
When you sit, let it be.
What you walk, let it be.
Grasp at nothing.
Resist nothing.
If you haven't wept deeply, you haven't begun to meditate.
- Ajahn Chah -
Just for sharing
From “A Brief History of Everything (Second Edition)”, Ken Wilber:
Page 205-207
The Nondual
Q: So this casual unmanifest – is that the absolute end point? Is this the end of time, the end of evolution, the end of history? The final Omega point?
KW: Well, many traditions take this state of cessation to be the ultimate state, the final end point of all development and evolution, yes. And this end state is equated with full Enlightenment, ultimate release, pure nirvana.
But this is not the “final story,” according to the Nondual traditions. Because at some point, as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of being a Witness “in here” completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed. The causal gives way to the Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism. “Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.”
Technically, you have dis-identified with even the Witness, and then integrated it with all manifestation – in other words, the second and third phases of fulcrum-9, which leads to fulcrum-10, which is not really a separate fulcrum or level, but the reality or Suchness of all levels, all states, all conditions.
And this is the second and most profound meaning of Emptiness - it is not a discrete state, but the reality of all states, the Suchness of all states. You have moved from the causal to the Nondual.
Q: Emptiness has two meanings?
KW: Yes, which can be very confusing. On one hand, as we just saw, it is a discrete, identifiable state of awareness – namely, unmanifest absorption or cessation (nirvikalpa Samadhi, ayn, jnana Samadhi, nirodh, classical nirvana). This is the causal state, a discrete state.
The second meaning is that Emptiness is not merely a particular state among other states, but rather the reality or suchness or condition of all states. Not a particular state apart from other states, but the reality or condition of all states, high or low, sacred or profane, ordinary or extraordinary. Recall that on figure 9-1 we had Spirit as both the highest level (“causal”) and the ever-present Ground of all levels (“nondual”).
Q: We already discussed the discrete state; now the Nondual.
KW: Yes, the “experience” of this nondual Suchness is similar to the nature unity experience we earlier discussed, except now this unity is experienced not just with gross Form out there, but also with all of the subtle Form in here. In Buddhist terms, this is not just the Nirmanakaya – gross or nature mysticismland not just the Sambhogakaya – subtle or deity mysticism; and not just the Dharmakaya – causal or formless mysticism. It is the Svabhavikakaya – the integration of all three of them. It is beyond nature mysticism, beyond deity mysticism, and beyond formless mysticism – it is the reality or the Suchness of each, and thus integrates each in its embrace. It embraces the entire spectrum of consciousness – transcends all, includes all.
Q: Again, rather technical. Perhaps thereÂ’s a more direct way to talk about Nondual mysticism?
Kw: Across the board, the sense of being any sort of Seer or Witness or Self vanishes altogether. You don’t look at the sky, you are the sky. You can taste the sky. It’s not out there. As Zen would say, you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, you can swallow the Kosmos whole – precisely because awareness is no longer split into a seeing subject in here and a seen object out there. There is just pure seeing. Consciousness and its display are not-two.
Everything continues to arise moment to moment – the entire Kosmos continues to arise moment to moment – but there is nobody watching the display, there is just the display, a spontaneous and luminous gesture of great perfection. The pure Emptiness of the Witness turns out to be one with every Form that is witnessed, and that is one of the basic meanings of “nonduality.”
Q: Again, could you be even more specific?
Kw: Well, you might begin by getting into the state of Witness – that is, you simply rest in pure observing awareness – you are not any object that can be seen – not nature, not body, not thoughts – just rest in that pure witnessing awareness. And you can get a certain “sensation” of that witnessing awareness – a sensation of freedom, of release, of great expanse.
While you are resting in that state, and “sensing” this Witness as a great expanse, if you then look at, say, a mountain, you might begin to notice that the sensation of the Witness and the sensation of the mountain are the same sensation. When you “feel” your pure Self and you “feel” the mountain, they are absolutely the same feeling.
In other words, the real world is not given to you twice – one out there, one in here. That “twiceness” is exactly the meaning of “duality”. Rather, the real world is given to you once, immediately – it is one feeling, it has one taste, it is utterly full in that one taste, it is not severed into seer and seen, subject and object, fragment and fragment. It is a singular, of which the plural is unknown. You can taste the mountain; it is the same taste as your Self; it is not out there being reflected in here – that duality is not present in the immediateness of real experience. Real experience, before you slice it up, does not contain that duality- real experience, reality itself, is “nondual.” You are still you, and the mountain is still the mountain, but you and the mountain are two sides of one and the same experience, which is the one and only reality at that moment.
If you relax into present experience in that fashion, the separate-self sense will uncoil; you will stop standing back from life; you will not have experience, you will suddenly become all experience; you will not be “in here” looking “out there” – in here and out there are one, so you are no longer trapped “in here.”
And so suddenly, you are not in the bodymind. Suddenly, the bodymind has dropped. Suddenly, the wind doesn’t blow on you, it blows through you, within you. You are not looking at the mountain, you are the mountain – the mountain is closer to you than your own skin. You are that, and there is no you – just this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found.
The entire sensation of “weight” drops altogether, because you are not in the Kosmos, the Kosmos is in you, and you are purest Emptiness. The entire universe is a transparent shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else.
(More to be found in the book itself) -
Hi An Eternal Now,
Technically, you have dis-identified with even the Witness, and then integrated it with all manifestation
I recognize what he is saying here but my own experience is of oneness, his description is breaking it into two discreet ideas and that is misleading because the mind will read into this...And this is the second and most profound meaning of Emptiness - it is not a discrete state, but the reality of all states, the Suchness of all states. You have moved from the causal to the Nondual.
Yes, there is only Oneness.
But saying the reality of "all" states is again implying duality, as if there are different states, that is just appearance.KW: Yes, the “experience” of this nondual Suchness is similar to the nature unity experience we earlier discussed, except now this unity is experienced not just with gross Form out there, but also with all of the subtle Form in here. In Buddhist terms, this is not just the Nirmanakaya – gross or nature mysticismland not just the Sambhogakaya – subtle or deity mysticism; and not just the Dharmakaya – causal or formless mysticism. It is the Svabhavikakaya – the integration of all three of them. It is beyond nature mysticism, beyond deity mysticism, and beyond formless mysticism – it is the reality or the Suchness of each, and thus integrates each in its embrace. It embraces the entire spectrum of consciousness – transcends all, includes all.
Wow!!! Talk about a lot of concepts!!!
The only sentence that makes sense to me is the last one. All is One.but there is nobody watching the display, there is just the display, a spontaneous and luminous gesture of great perfection. The pure Emptiness of the Witness turns out to be one with every Form that is witnessed, and that is one of the basic meanings of “nonduality.”
This sounds great!!!And you can get a certain “sensation” of that witnessing awareness – a sensation of freedom, of release, of great expanse.
This sounds very good too.
While you are resting in that state, and “sensing” this Witness as a great expanse, if you then look at, say, a mountain, you might begin to notice that the sensation of the Witness and the sensation of the mountain are the same sensation. When you “feel” your pure Self and you “feel” the mountain, they are absolutely the same feeling.
Thanks for the post!
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Yup.. Ken Wilber's books are mostly on theory (i.e the one I quoted above) on various field that not only covers spirituality (he calls it integral theory because it integrates different aspects of our world into one integrative theory), except his "Simple Feeling of Being" and "One Taste" where he talks more on his own (spiritual) experienceOriginally posted by JonLS:Wow!!! Talk about a lot of concepts!!!
The only sentence that makes sense to me is the last one. All is One. In fact I planned to get "Simple Feeling of Being" tomorrow. -
Originally posted by JonLS:Dear Thusness,
I am completely overwhelmed with what you wrote here.
When I was reading this the first time, I read the phrase "the Appearance is the Source!" and all hell broke loose within. There was instant recognition of what was written and a simultaneous explosive expansion of energy. This was quite painful, but the pain was totally irrelevant. It took me at least 15 minutes to recover from the initial event, there was a great deal of crying and an overwhelming sense that there was a tremendous "letting go".
I knew before reading this that there was no witness, I had heard Tony Parsons speak of this, but your post somehow opened the floodgates and for that I truly thank you.
The witness is the appearance is the source.
All is One.
Nothing could be more simple.
Thank you again.
Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are One.
That is no-mirror relfecting. Everything is unfolding! You are on your own!
From blinking your eyes, raising a hand...jumps...flowers, sky, chirping birds, footsteps...every single moment...nothing is not it! There is just IT. The instantaneous moment is total intelligence, total life, total clarity. Everything Knows, it's it. There is no two, there is one.
Good Luck!
Help me to pay homage to the Blessed One.... -
Stage 6.Originally posted by JonLS:Ps: At one point today I had the distinct feeling/impression/insight that you and I are One.
I drink the coffee, u get the taste.
Don't even think about it! It is for Total Presence to know. -
I drink the coffee, u get the taste
.
Could you add a little more sugar please!
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Originally posted by JonLS:
Nope...I drink with little sugar...
[b].
Could you add a little more sugar please! [/b] -
Nope...I drink with little sugar...
Why are you resisting the present moment?
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The 'bond' is greatly loosen after "no mirror reflecting". During the process of transition from 'Witness' to 'no Witness' some experience the manifestation as itself being intelligence, some experience it as immense vitality, some experience it as tremendous clarity and some, all 3 qualities explode into one single moment. Even then the 'bond' is far from being completely eliminated, we know how subtle it can beOriginally posted by JonLS:Why are you resisting the present moment? 
. The principle of conditionality might help if you face problem in future (I know how a person feel after the experience of non-duality, they don't like 'religion'... Just simply 4 sentences).
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
Not for scientists, more crucial for the experience of the totality of our Pristine Awareness. -
The 'who' is gone, the 'where' and 'when' isn't.
Find delights in -- this is, that is. -
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Anyway congratulations again to JonLS for making such great breakthroughs, and thanks for bringing much lively discussion to this forum
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Yes, I think in Buddhism, it is stated by the Buddha that for one to even have entered the stream to the ocean of nirvana (i.e stream enterer, first out of 4 stages of Arhantship) have removed three fetters:Originally posted by Thusness:(I know how a person feel after the experience of non-duality, they don't like 'religion'... Just simply 4 sentences).
1. Belief in an existing self
2. Skeptical doubt
3. Superstition, or attachment to rules and rituals based on a misunderstanding of their real purpose.
(more info: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/arhat_way.html)
Nevertheless, I believe they will like Truth -
bond what to what?
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Bond means a kind of indentification, for example subconsciously you hold on to a belief in a self. Or you hold on to the belief that mind and body is yourself.This subconscious bond prevents you from direct perception of truth.Originally posted by Cenarious:bond what to what? -
Hi everyone,
I have some great news today.
I'm totally lost.
I love it when that happens.
When the scaffolding is pulled out from under me.
Nothing to hang on to. -
let goOriginally posted by JonLS:Hi everyone,
I have some great news today.
I'm totally lost.
I love it when that happens.
When the scaffolding is pulled out from under me.
Nothing to hang on to. -
nothing to hang on, so nothing to let goOriginally posted by LinYu:let go -
Enjoy the HAPPENING...Mr. Transparent.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi everyone,
I have some great news today.
I'm totally lost.
I love it when that happens.
When the scaffolding is pulled out from under me.
Nothing to hang on to.