"soul" rebirth lifespan
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Totally agree with you.
And what is no self?
No self means right now, sensation of touch on keyboard!
Sound of keyboard typing!
Words appearing on screen!
But no separate experiencer. Just that.
To understand No-Self is not to think in terms of existence or non existence.
It is to live fully in this very moment, as the pure action without doer, as the pure sensation without perceiver.
It is Alive, it is NOT dead.
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BTW I have to add, realisation No-Self is not just living fully in this very moment.
An insight has to occur, a quantum shift of perception. Then one will realise that all along, there has never been a separate self, perceiver, or doer. It is not a stage to enter, no effort is necessary, only natural luminosity shining everywhere.
That is why diligent practice of mindfulness, with right views, is necessary to uncover our true nature.
Our Moderator Thusness:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
4. Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity
I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the experience of ‘Presence’ but rather the teaching of impermanence syncs deeply with what I experience in life. I am faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by financial crisis. At that point in time I have no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on the aspect of ‘Presence’. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I seek for a refuge in Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis but it turned out to be the missing key towards experiencing total presence.
I wasn’t that resistant then about the doctrine of ‘no-self’ but the idea that all phenomenon existence is empty of an inherent ‘self’ or ‘Self’ did not quite get into me. Are they talking about the ‘Self’ as a personality or ‘Self’ as ‘Eternal Witness’? Must we do away even with the ‘Witness’ itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
There is thinking, no thinker
There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer
I was meditating the above stanza deeply…about its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of “I AM”….it is without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between…What is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not ‘I AM’, it is not asking ‘who am I’, it is not the pure sense of “I AM”, it is ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
The heart beats…..
the Scenery…
There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise…
There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed
There is no entry and exit point…
There is no Sound out there or in here…
There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…
The manifold of Presence….
Moment to moment Presences unfolds…Presence is the Crystal Bright Clarity
Updated comments: Insight into no-self has arisen but non-dual experience is still not stabilized. The tendency to experience as a clear mirror reflecting still persist, however, the attention is shifted to experiencing pure presence rest in being authenticated by mere phenomenon. There is no more resistance towards phenomena manifestation, the ‘illusion’ of a background is seen and effort to sink back to a void background diminishes substantially.
Edited by An Eternal Now 06 Jun `08, 6:17PMBTW, the many Zen Masters get enlightened after hearing a sound, perhaps something breaks. Or through seeing something.
And suddenly got enlightened.
Because the illusion of duality between the perceiver and the sound has dissolved.
Like a famous Zen Master said when he got his enlightenment, "When I heard the bell ring, suddenly there was no 'I' and no 'bell,' just the ringing."
And also, the pure compassion of the Bodhisattva for sentient beings, even though he never views sentient beings them as entities and concepts 'to be saved'.
There is simply pure compassion going forth towards these sentient beings, even though he never sees beings as separate from from himself. No internal and external. Just pure love and compassion. And pure action arising spontaneously out of compassion.
This will explain why a Bodhisattva can have compassion. Only the conceptualized mind sees contradiction. It thinks 'no-self' in terms of concepts, in terms of non-existence or existence. And miss the essence.
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Vimalakirti Sutra:
Thereupon, Manjusri, the crown prince, addressed the Licchavi Vimalakirti: "Good sir, how should a bodhisattva regard all living beings?"
Vimalakirti replied, "Manjusri, a bodhisattva should regard all livings beings as a wise man regards the reflection of the moon in water or as magicians regard men created by magic. He should regard them as being like a face in a mirror; like the water of a mirage; like the sound of an echo; like a mass of clouds in the sky; like the previous moment of a ball of foam; like the appearance and disappearance of a bubble of water; like the core of a plantain tree; like a flash of lightning; like the fifth great element; like the seventh sense-medium; like the appearance of matter in an immaterial realm; like a sprout from a rotten seed; like a tortoise-hair coat; like the fun of games for one who wishes to die; like the egoistic views of a stream-winner; like a third rebirth of a once-returner; like the descent of a nonreturner into a womb; like the existence of desire, hatred, and folly in a saint; like thoughts of avarice, immorality, wickedness, and hostility in a bodhisattva who has attained tolerance; like the instincts of passions in a Tathagata; like the perception of color in one blind from birth; like the inhalation and exhalation of an ascetic absorbed in the meditation of cessation; like the track of a bird in the sky; like the erection of a eunuch; like the pregnancy of a barren woman; like the unproduced passions of an emanated incarnation of the Tathagata; like dream-visions seen after waking; like the passions of one who is free of conceptualizations; like fire burning without fuel; like the reincarnation of one who has attained ultimate liberation.
"Precisely thus, Manjusri, does a bodhisattva who realizes the ultimate selflessness consider all beings."
Manjusri then asked further, "Noble sir, if a bodhisattva considers all living beings in such a way, how does he generate the great love toward them?"
Vimalakirti replied, "Manjusri, when a bodhisattva considers all living beings in this way, he thinks: 'Just as I have realized the Dharma, so should I teach it to living beings.' Thereby, he generates the love that is truly a refuge for all living beings; the love that is peaceful because free of grasping; the love that is not feverish, because free of passions; the love that accords with reality because it is equanimous in all three times; the love that is without conflict because free of the violence of the passions; the love that is nondual because it is involved neither with the external nor with the internal; the love that is imperturbable because totally ultimate.
"Thereby he generates the love that is firm, its high resolve unbreakable, like a diamond; the love that is pure, purified in its intrinsic nature; the love that is even, its aspirations being equal; the saint's love that has eliminated its enemy; the bodhisattva's love that continuously develops living beings; The Tathagata's love that understands reality; the Buddha's love that causes living beings to awaken from their sleep; the love that is spontaneous because it is fully enlightened spontaneously; the love that is enlightenment because it is unity of experience; the love that has no presumption because it has eliminated attachment and aversion; the love that is great compassion because it infuses the Mahayana with radiance; the love that is never exhausted because it acknowledges voidness and selflessness; the love that is giving because it bestows the gift of Dharma free of the tight fist of a bad teacher; the love that is morality because it improves immoral living beings; the love that is tolerance because it protects both self and others; the love that is effort because it takes responsibility for all living beings; the love that is contemplation because it refrains from indulgence in tastes; the love that is wisdom because it causes attainment at the proper time; the love that is liberative technique because it shows the way everywhere; the love that is without formality because it is pure in motivation; the love that is without deviation because it acts from decisive motivation; the love that is high resolve because it is without passions; the love that is without deceit because it is not artificial; the love that is happiness because it introduces living beings to the happiness of the Buddha. Such, Manjusri, is the great love of a bodhisattva."
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Yes, a fully enlightened being will not view what that is being see as external.
There is no inner and outer. Likewise there is no separate persons and things out there.
There is no out there. There is no inside. All is one reality.
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Originally posted by longchen:
Yes, a fully enlightened being will not view what that is being see as external.
There is no inner and outer. Likewise there is no separate persons and things out there.
There is no out there. There is no inside. All is one reality.
Nicely said :)
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Originally posted by longchen:
The answer is actually very simple...
The "thing" is consciousness.. The "thing" is what you experience as yourself now.
When the physical body dies, the conscoiusness changes state, but it is still consciousness. There is no some 'thing' beyond you... it is all just change of state according to conditions.
Consciousness will go on forever.
I agree with you... but would like elaborate on the inseparability of conditions and consciousness and its relation to rebirth.
Your post clearly explains the inseparability of conditions and presence. But consciousness is very easily misunderstood as the experiencer or transmigratory entity of rebirth.
It's very long, but the essence are on top, and alot are elaboration.
I wanted to summarize at first but my wisdom just cannot compare to Buddha. ;)
Majjhima Nikaya 38
Mahatanhasankhayasuttam
The Longer Discourse on the Destruction of Craving
Thus have I heard:Once the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's grove, Anathapindika's park. At that time a pernicious view had arisen in a bhikkhu named Sati, the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else." Then many bhikkhus heard that this pernicious view had arisen in the bhikkhu named, Sati the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."
Then those bhikkhus approached the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, and asked: "Friend, Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"
"Yes, friends, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."
Then those bhikkhus thinking to dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, cross examined him, asked for reasons and discussed with him: "Friend, Sati do not say that, do not misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say that. The Blessed One has shown in various ways, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness." Even when so much was said, he held on to his pernicious view tenaciously and would not give it up and said: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."
When the bhikkhus could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, they approached the Blessed One, paid homage, sat to one side and said: "Venerable sir, this pernicious view has arisen in a bhikkhu named Sati, the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else." Then we approached the bhikkhu Sati and asked him: "Friend, Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"
"Venerable sir, the bhikkhu Sati said to us: "Yes, friends, ‘as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’." Then we bhikkhus, thinking to dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, cross examined him, asked for reasons and discussed with him: 'Friend, Sati do not say that, do not misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say that. The Blessed One has shown in various ways, that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness'." Even when we cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his pernicious view tenaciously and would not give it up. As we could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, we came to inform you about it."
Then the Blessed One addressed a certain bhikkhu and said, "Come bhikkhu, in my name, call the bhikkhu Sati, tell him the Teacher wants him." That bhikkhu consented and approached the bhikkhu Sati and told him, "Friend, the Teacher wants you." The bhikkhu Sati said "Yes, friend" and approached the Blessed One, paid homage and sat to one side.
Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness tansmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"
"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."
"Sati, what is that conscciousness?"
"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."
"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."
Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, what do you think, has this this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, learned anything from this dispensation?" "No, venerable sir."
When this was said the bhikkhu Sati became silent, unable to reply back, and sat with drooping shoulders and eyes turned down. Then the Blessed One, knowing that the bhikkhu Sati had become silent, unable to reply back, and was sitting with drooping shoulders and with eyes turned down, told him: "Foolish man, you will be known on account of this pernicious view; now I will question the bhikkhus on this."
Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, do you too know of this Teaching, the wrong view of the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, on account of which he misrepresents us and also destroys himself and accumulates much suffering?"
"No, venerable sir. In various ways we have been taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness."
"Good, bhikkhus! Good that you know the Dhamma taught by me. In various ways I have taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, by holding to this wrong view, misrepresents us and destroys himself and accumulates much demerit, and it will be for his suffering for a long time.
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose conscioussness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness.
"Bhikkhus, do you see, This has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir". "Do you see it arises supported by That?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, Do you see if the support ceases, the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Bhikkhus, when you are not sure whether something has arisen do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "When you are not sure why something has arisen, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when you are not sure that with ceasing of a certain support, that the arisen too would cease, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something arises with a support?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you sees with right wisdom that with the cessation of its supports, the arisen also ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Bhikkhus, This has arisen - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, This has arisen with That as support - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when that support ceases, the arising too ceases - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, as it really is, with right wisdom, this is arising?." "Yes,venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that this arises supported?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that when the support ceases the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Bhikkhus, these are the four finds of supports for the maintence of beings that have arisen and as help for those seeking birth. What four? First is material food, coarse or fine; the second is contact; mental volition is the third and consciousness is the fourth.
"Bhikkhus, from what do these four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"These four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop from craving.
"Bhikkhus, from what does craving originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"Craving originates, rises, takes birth and develops from feelings.
"Bhikkhus, from what do feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"Feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop from contact.
"Bhikkhus, from what does contact originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"Contact originates, rises, takes birth and develops from the sixfold sense base.
"Bhikkhus, from what does the sixfold sense base originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"The sixfold sense base originates, rises, takes birth and develops from name and form.
"Bhikkhus, from what do name and form originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"Name and form originate, rise, take birth and develop from consciousness.
"Bhikkhus, from what does consciousness originate, rise, take birth and develop?.
"Consciousness originates rises, takes birth and develops from [volitional] formations.
"Bhikkhus, from what do [volitional] formations originate, rise, take birth and develop?
"[Volitional] Formations originate, rise, take birth and develop from ignorance.
"Thus bhikkhus, from ignorance arise [volitional] formations, from [volitional] formations consciousness, from consciousness name and form, from name and form the sixfold sense base, from the sixfold sense base contact, from contact feelings, from feelings craving, from craving clinging, from clinging being, from being birth, from birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of dukkha.
"Bhikkhus, it is said, decay and death arise from birth. Do decay and death arise from birth or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, decay and death, arise from birth. We understand it thus: Decay and death arise from birth."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, birth arises from being. Does birth arise from being or not or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, birth arises from being. We understand it thus: Birth arises from being."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, being arises from clinging. Does being arise from clinging or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, being rises from clinging. We understand it thus: Being arises from clinging."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, clinging arises from craving. Does clinging arise from craving or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from clinging. We understand it thus: Craving arises from clinging."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, craving arises from feelings. Does craving arise from feelings or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from feelings. We understand it thus: Craving arises from feelings."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, feelings arise from contact. Do feelings arise from contact or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, feelings arise from contact. We understand it thus: Feelings arise from contact."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, contact arises from the sixfold sense base. Does contact arise from the sixfold sense base or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, contact arises from the sixfold sense base. We understand it thus: Contact arises from the sixfold sense base."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, the sixfold sense base arises from name and form. Does the sixfold sense base arise from name and form or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, the sixfold sense base arises from name and form. We understand it thus: the sixfold sense base arises from name and form."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, name and form arise from consciousness. Do name and form arise from consciousness or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, name and form arise from consciousness. We understand it thus: Name and form arise from consciousness."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, consciousness arise from [volitional] formations. Does consciousness arise from [volitional] formations or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, consciousness arises from [volitional] formations. We understand it thus: Consciousness arises from [volitional] formations."
"Bhikkhus, it is said, [volitional] formations arise from ignorance. Do [volitional] formations arise from ignorance or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, [volitional] formations arise from ignorance. We understand it thus: [Volitional] Formations arise from ignorance."
"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Beccause of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, being arises. Because of being, birth arises. Because of birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.
"But with the complete cessation of ignorance, [volitional] formations cease. With the complete cessation of [volitional] formations, consciousness ceases. With the cessation of consciousness, name and form cease. With the cessation of name and form, the sixfold sense base ceases. With the cessation of the sixfold sense base, contact ceases. With the cessation of contact, feelings ceases. With the cessation of feelings, craving ceases. With the cessation of craving, clinging ceases. With the cessation of clinging, being ceases. With the cessation of being, birth ceases. With the cessation of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress cease. Thus is the complete cessation of dukkha.
"'When birth ceases old age, sickness and death cease' so it was said. Bhikkhus, do old age, sickness and death cease when birth ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen." "Venerable sir, when birth ceases, old age, sickness and death cease. Thus we understand it: 'when birth ceases, old age, sickness and death cease.'"
"'When being ceases, birth ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does birth cease when being ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when being ceases, birth ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When being ceases, birth ceases.'"
"'When clinging ceases, being ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does clinging cease when being ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when clinging ceases, being ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When clinging ceases, being ceases.'"
"'When craving ceases, clinging ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when clinging ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when craving ceases, clinging ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When craving ceases, clinging ceases.'"
"'When feeling ceases, craving ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when feeling ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when feeling ceases, craving ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When feeling ceases, craving ceases.'"
"'When contact ceases, feeling ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does feeling cease when contact ceases or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when contact ceases, feeling ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When contact ceases, feeling ceases.'"
"'When the sixfold sense base ceases, contact ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does the sixfold sense base cease when contact ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when the sixfold sense base ceases, contact ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When the sixfold sense base cease, contact ceases.'"
"'When name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does the sixfold sense base cease when name and form cease or does it not, or how do they happen?" "Venerable sir, when name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases.'"
"'When consciousness ceases, name and form cease' so it was said. Bhikkhus, do name and form cease when consciousness ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when consciousness ceases, name and form cease. Thus we understand it: 'When consciousness ceases, name and form cease.'"
"'When [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does consciousness cease when [volitional] formations cease or does it not, or how does it happen?." "Venerable sir, when [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases. Thus we understand it: 'when [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases.'"
"'When ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease' so it is said. Bhikkhus, do [volitional] formations cease when ignorance ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease. Thus we understand it: 'when ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease.'"
"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Beccause of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, being arises. Because of being, birth arises. Because of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.
"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would your mind run to the past: 'Was I in the past or was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus, run to the future: 'Will I be in the future, or will I not be in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus have doubts about the present: 'Am I, or am I not? What am I? How am I? Where did this being come from? Where will it go?'" "No, venerable sir."
"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'We have reverence for the Teacher. We say it out of reverence to the Teacher'?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'Our recluse said it, these are the recluse’s words. But we do not say that'?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you acknowledge another teacher?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you seek meaning in religious rites, ceremonies or festivals of other recluses and brahmins?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, is it that you youself knowing, seeing and experiencing this speak thus?" "Yes, venerable sir."
"Good, O, Bhikkhus, I have led you in this Dhamma which is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves. It was in reference to this that it was said: 'Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves'."
"Bhikkhus, a descent to the womb comes about with the coming together of three things: If there is the union of mother and father, but it is not the season of the mother and the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb. If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother but the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb. If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother and the one to be born is present - then there is a descent to the womb.
"The mother carries the embryo in her womb for nine or ten months with great anxiety and trouble. After nine or ten months she gives birth with great anxiety and trouble. She supports the newborn with her own blood; for in the Noble Ones’ dispensation mother’s milk is called blood.
"Bhikkhus, that child grows and his faculties mature and he plays games that children play, such as playing with toy ploughs, turning somersaults, making toy wind mills with palm leaves, making small carts and bows. Bhikkhus, that child grows and his faculties mature [further] and the youth enjoys the five strands of sense pleasures; he lives enticed by pleasing and agreeable forms cognisable by eye consciousness, agreeable sounds cognisable by ear consciousness, agreeable smells cognisable by nose consciousness, agreeable tastes cognisable by tongue consciousness and agreeable touches cognisable by body consciousness.
"On seeing a form with the eye he becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. He abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. He does not know the deliverance of mind nor the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. He follows the path of agreeing and disagreeing and experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those [pleasant] feelings he appropriates them. This arouses interest in those feelings. That interest for feelings is clinging. From clinging, there arises being, from being arises birth, from birth old age, sickness and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.
"Hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he becomes greedy for a pleasant experience, or averse to a disagreeable one. He abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. He does not know the deliverance of mind nor the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. He follows the path of agreeing and disagreeing and experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those [pleasant] feelings he appropriates them. This arouses interest in those feelings. That interest for feelings is clinging. From clinging, there arises being, from being arises birth, from birth old age, sickness and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.
"Bhikkhus, a Tathagata arises in the world, a worthy one, perfectly enlightened, endowed with clear knowledge and conduct, accomplished, a knower of the world, unsurpassed trainer of men to be tamed, teacher of gods and men, enlightened and exalted. Having realized by his own direct knowledge this world with its gods, its Maras, and its Brahmas, this generation with its recluses and brahmins, its rulers and people, he makes it known to others. He teaches the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, possessing meaning and phrasing; he reveals the holy life that is fully complete and purified.
"A householder, or a householder's son, or one born into some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith, he reflects: 'The household life is crowded, a path of dust. Going forth is like the open air. It is not easy for one dwelling at home to lead the perfectly complete, perfectly purified holy life, bright as a polished conch. Let me then shave off my hair and beard, put on saffron robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness.'
"After some time he abandons his accumulation of wealth, be it large or small; he abandons his circle of relatives, be it large or small; he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on saffron robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness.
"When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the Patimokkha, possessed of proper behavior and resort. Abandoning the taking of life, he abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.
"Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He takes only what is given, accepts only what is given, lives not by stealth but in honesty with a pure mind.
"Abandoning incelibacy, he lives a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way.
"Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.
"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.
"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large.
"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, and the Discipline. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.
"He abstains from damaging seed and plant life.
"He eats only in one part of the day, refraining from food at night and from eating at improper times.
"He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from witnessing unsuitable shows.
"He abstains from wearing garlands and from beautifying himself with scents and cosmetics.
"He abstains from high and luxurious beds and seats.
"He abstains from accepting gold and silver.
"He abstains from accepting uncooked grain... raw meat... women and girls... male and female slaves... goats and sheep... fowl and pigs... elephants, cattle, steeds, and mares... fields and property.
"He abstains from accepting fields and lands.
"He abstains from running messages... from buying and selling... from dealing with false scales, false metals, and false measures... from bribery, deception, and fraud.
"He abstains from mutilating, executing, imprisoning, highway robbery, plunder, and violence.
"Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is a bhikkhu is content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along.
"On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he experiences within himself an unblemished happiness.
"In going forward and returning, a bhikkhu acts with clear comprehension. In looking ahead and looking aside, he acts with clear comprehension. In bending and stretching his limbs, he acts with clear comprehension. In wearing his robes and cloak and using his almsbowl, he acts with clear comprehension. In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, he acts with clear comprehension. In defecating and urinating, he acts with clear comprehension. In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, he acts with clear comprehension.
"Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling - a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meal, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.
"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and worry, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and worry. Abandoning doubt, he dwells having crossed over doubt, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of doubt.
"Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and remains in the first Jhana which is filled with rapture and happiness born of seclusion and is accompanied by initial and sustained attention [to the meditation subject].
"With the stilling of initial and sustained attention, by gaining inner tranquillity and unification of mind, he enters and remains in the second Jhana which is free from initial and sustained attention and is filled with rapture and happiness born of concentration.
"With the fading away of rapture, remaining imperturbable, mindful, and clearly aware, he enters the third Jhana and experiences within himself the joy of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Happy is he who dwells with equanimity and mindfulness.'
"With the abandoning of pleasure and pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of joy and sorrow -- he enters and remains in the fourth Jhana which is beyond pleasure and pain; and purified by equanimity and mindfulness.
"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasureable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no being; no being, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.
"On hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he does not become greedy for pleasant experiences, or averse to disagreeable ones. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasureable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no being; no being, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.
"Bhikkhus, remember this deliverance through the destruction of craving as taught in brief by me. But the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, is caught in a net of much craving."
The Blessed One said this and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
I agree with you... must would like elaborate on the inseparability of conditions and consciousness and its relation to rebirth.
Yes, yes... inseparability of conditions and consciousness is very important.
Thanks.
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forget ur soul la
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Here's a good thread: What is it that is reborn?Here's the reply by Dhammanando, the monk who debated on the Thai Forest Tradition Ajahns claim in a different thread.---------------------------QUOTE(Darkknight @ Jan 8 2007, 06:17 AM)Q. So there is no self (Atman). so what exactly is it that is reborn, and how does what is reborn pass from one body to another?
Thanks in advance for any answers received.
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The question is wrongly put and the Buddha's reponse when asked such a question was to reject it as an improper question. Having rejected the question he would then inform the questioner of what he ought to have asked: "With what as condition is there birth?"
The reason that it is an improper question is that rebirth is taught as the continuation of a process, and not as the passing on of any sort of entity. For a more complete exposition of the subject see Mahasi Sayadaw's Discourse on Paticcasamuppada.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu -
Another reply by Dhammanando:
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QUOTE(Avalokiteshvara @ Jan 8 2007, 09:11 AM)
Wrongly put or not the answer is still the same.
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The "what?" in the question takes for granted the very thing that the Buddha rejects — that there is some real entity in this life that is transferred to the being in the next life. Since this assumption is wrong, the question as phrased has no answer and must be rejected.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu -
Here's a reply by Loppon Namdrol:
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QUOTE(Daisychain @ Jan 7 2007, 08:35 PM)
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QUOTE(Darkknight @ Jan 8 2007, 08:17 AM)Q. So there is no self (Atman). so what exactly is it that is reborn, and how does what is reborn pass from one body to another?There is no self to be found within the aggregates
Thanks in advance for any answers received. :bow:
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(Namdrol:)
Or apart from them -
Another reply by Loppon Namdrol:
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QUOTE(Avalokiteshvara @ Jan 7 2007, 11:02 PM) I understand what you are saying but the "what" doesnt necessarily have to mean one thing like some real entity it could also mean many things. I dont think any assumptions were being made it is just a question anyway nothing right or wrong about it. * *
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The point is that the question is phrased wrong requiring at best an ambigious answer that will confuse more than edify.
Buddha in fact discussed this with Sharputra saying that if he answers the question "yes there is something that undergoes birth" people will become confused and assuem there is a permanent self that undergoes retribution of action and so on. Likewise, if he answers the question "no, there is nothing which undergoes rebirth" likewise there are those who will assume there are no consequences of action and so on and will therefore feel no compelling need observe the principles of karma and so on.
Therefore when asked the question "what takes rebirth" he points out that question itself is flawed.
The question should be "Why is there birth?" The answere to that question is easy. There is birth, i.e. suffering, because of affliction and action.
As long as the aggregates are afflicted, afflicted aggregates will continue to be appropriated.
In Madhyamaka it is explained there is birth because of the innate self-grasping "I am" appearing to the afflicted mind. It is asserted that what appropriates birth in a new series of aggregates is the mental habit "I am." That "I am" is baseless, has no correspondence in the aggregates or seperate from them or in any one of them, just as a car is not found in its parts, seperate from them, or in any one of the parts. Nevertheless, the imputation "car" allows us to use cars effectively. Likewise, the mental habit "I am" is proper as both the agent of action and the object upon which it ripens even though it is basically unreal and has no basis in the aggregates, outside the aggregates, or in any one of them, but allows us to treat the aggreates as a nominally designated "person". -
Originally posted by Bodhi hut:
Woa so many replies..i am in a rush now, but read abit here and there...
Actually my question can be mislead to some replies...
Let me put in simple terms..or maybe when i am back i use chinese better..
What do you call the "thing" that go to the releam and rebirth...
if one is unable to enlighten....does he remain to rebirth n rebirth..the so call"the thing" does it has a expiring lifespan...
What happen to the sentinent beings whom are unable to enlighten after Mitreya arrive....where they end...of end with this world..
I read some replies above and some already out of the question i asked..pardon me
Maybe AEN you can use chinese to answer..i am more comfy in reading chinese especially related to buddhism stuffs...
Thanks
I have replied plenty above, but I'm going to summarise one for you right now. It replies all your questions asked.
In fact this is an old post I did months ago. Just updated a bit only.
It is a bit difficult for me to translate to Chinese but if you do not understand any parts, please feel free to clarify.
Oh and btw, after Maitreya, there are still countless Buddhas to come. So there's always this opportunity, but it all depends on whether the yuan for the sentient being has arisen to meet, cultivate and realise the dharma.
And also... after the end of this universe, there will be countless universes to follow. Never ending cycles of birth and destruction. But this is only talking about relative truths, Ultimate Reality is that there is no universe out there, the universe is empty, and of course no 'birth and destruction' (Empty). As Longchen said, "There is no some 'thing' beyond you... it is all just change of state according to conditions." That means all there is is an experiential reality (consciousness) that is empty, arising and changing according to conditions.
To answer your question, "What is reborn?"
The basis of this question is the false assumption that there is 'something' or an entity that is reborn.
The question 'what' or 'who' is exactly pointed out by Buddha to be irrelevant, false from the beginning.
In other words -- the question cannot be asked that way, because to say 'what' or 'who' presumes there must be an existent entity or self behind birth, but in reality no such entity can be found. In Buddhism, there is no such thing as an existing soul or atman that 'passes on' to the next life, or an agent that is the subject of birth and suffering.
Rather, the Buddha say, it should be correctly asked 'Why', or "With what as condition is there birth and suffering?'
And the answer for that is very simple. There is birth, i.e. suffering, because of affliction and action. As long as the aggregates are afflicted, afflicted aggregates will continue to be appropriated.And the primary affliction/delusion is the conceit of 'I am'. This conceit is false and delusional.
And when ignorance is removed through awakening of Insight, until all fetters and afflictions are dissolved, there will be no more conditions for Birth to arise. This is Nirvana.
Birth will arise moment to moment, again and again until and only until enlightenment.
There is no such thing as a "soul expiry date" or even a "soul" in the first place. Birth will arise whenever there is condition for it to arise, and the conditions for birth will perpetuate only until enlightenment and liberation.
There is consciousness but it must not be misunderstood as an experiencer or transmigratory entity of rebirth, otherwise it will end up like Sati's false views. But if it is as explained by longchen, the essence of emptiness is there. But it may be misunderstood by the reader.
Regarding birth, the Buddha taught the 12 Dependent links of Origination which is founded on the principle of Dependent Arising.
Note how in each case the Buddha rejects the question of 'Who' or 'What' as an assumption that is fundamentally wrong, and instead, inform the questioner of what he ought to have asked: "With what as condition...?" and finally "With what as condition is there birth/suffering?" (note that birth = 'becoming' in Pali terms)
The full sutra is here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn...2.012.nypo.htmlQUOTEPhagguna Sutta
"There are, O monks, four nutriments for the sustenance of beings born, and for the support of beings seeking birth. What are the four? Edible food, coarse and fine; secondly, sense-impression; thirdly, volitional thought; fourthly, consciousness."
After these words, the venerable Moliya-Phagguna addressed the Exalted One as follows:
"Who, O Lord, consumes1 the nutriment consciousness?"
"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he consumes.'2 If I had said so, then the question 'Who consumes?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be: 'For what is the nutriment consciousness (the condition)?'3 And to that the correct reply is: 'The nutriment consciousness4 is a condition for the future arising of a renewed existence;5 when that has come into being, there is (also) the sixfold sense-base; and conditioned by the sixfold sense-base is sense-impression.'"6
"Who, O Lord, has a sense-impression?"
"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One.
"I do not say that 'he has a sense-impression.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who has a sense-impression?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of sense-impression?' And to that the correct reply is: 'The sixfold sense-base is a condition of sense-impression, and sense-impression is the condition of feeling.'"
"Who, O Lord, feels?"
"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he feels.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling; and feeling is the condition of craving.'"
"Who, O Lord, craves?"
"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he craves.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who craves?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of craving?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Feeling is the condition of craving, and craving is the condition of clinging.'"
"Who, O Lord, clings?"
"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One, "I do not say that 'he clings.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who clings?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of clinging?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Craving is the condition of clinging; and clinging is the condition of the process of becoming.' Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering.7
"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;8 through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering." -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Here's a good thread: What is it that is reborn?Here's the reply by Dhammanando, the monk who debated on the Thai Forest Tradition Ajahns claim in a different thread.---------------------------QUOTE(Darkknight @ Jan 8 2007, 06:17 AM)Q. So there is no self (Atman). so what exactly is it that is reborn, and how does what is reborn pass from one body to another?
Thanks in advance for any answers received.-----------------------------
The question is wrongly put and the Buddha's reponse when asked such a question was to reject it as an improper question. Having rejected the question he would then inform the questioner of what he ought to have asked: "With what as condition is there birth?"
The reason that it is an improper question is that rebirth is taught as the continuation of a process, and not as the passing on of any sort of entity. For a more complete exposition of the subject see Mahasi Sayadaw's Discourse on Paticcasamuppada.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando BhikkhuI think this passage summarises very nicely.
The problem with the I AM experience is that it makes a person assume that there is a part of him/her (that is beyond the personality) that will go on forever. And more often then not, either this "I AM" or the alaya is mistaken as a permanent soul.
However, to a person who experiences non-duality (and emptiness), he understands that 'this is it!' and there is nothing beyond this. There is no self-existing soul that is apart from the personality. All are just changes according to the condition at that precise moment. To a non-dual person, there is no preference towards an assumed permanent part that is beyond the thoughts and personality. It is non-dual (not two), there is no seeing in terms of separate parts. That also means, there is no seeing 'any body' as a person out there. All are just perceptions and the amazing power of cognition discriminates and see many things, persons and object outside of the self.
This truth of no-self and non-separation may sound very scary or disturbing to a person who only understand it mentally or conceptually. But the actual experience is not so. To the non-dual person, permanent or impermanence, things and objects are just concepts... if one don't get bothered by it... it is not an issue at all.
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Originally posted by longchen:
I think this passage summarises very nicely.
The problem with the I AM experience is that it makes a person assume that there is a part of him/her (that is beyond the personality) that will go on forever. And more often then not, either this "I AM" or the alaya is mistaken as a permanent soul.
However, to a person who experiences non-duality (and emptiness), he understands that 'this is it!' and there is nothing beyond this. There is no self-existing soul that is apart from the personality. All are just changes according to the condition at that precise moment. To a non-dual person, there is no preference towards an assumed permanent part that is beyond the thoughts and personality. It is non-dual (not two), there is no seeing in terms of separate parts. That also means, there is no seeing 'any body' as a person out there. All are just perceptions and the amazing power of cognition discriminates and see many things, persons and object outside of the self.
This truth of no-self and non-separation may sound very scary or disturbing to a person who only understand it mentally or conceptually. But the actual experience is not so. To the non-dual person, permanent or impermanence, things and objects are just concepts... if one don't get bothered by it... it is not an issue at all.
I see.. thanks for the post.. very gd explanation
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业力是指有情众生（动物）使æ¯�一桩或善或æ�¶çš„行为，åƒ�å�„ç§�çš„é¢œè‰²ä¸€æ ·ï¼Œç»§ç»ä¸�æ–地薰染到生命的主体——识田ä¸åŽ»ï¼Œå†�从识田之ä¸ï¼Œç‰å¾…外缘的诱导而è�ŒèŠ½ç”Ÿé•¿ï¼Œæ£åƒ�æ’ç§�在泥土ä¸ï¼Œç‰å¾…日光ã€�空气ã€�水的诱导而è�ŒèŠ½ç”Ÿé•¿ï¼Œè¿™åœ¨ä½›æ•™ç§°ä¸ºä¸šåŠ›çš„çŽ°è¡Œã€‚ä¸šçš„é€ ä½œæ˜¯ä¸šåŠ›çŽ°è¡Œçš„å› ï¼Œä¸šåŠ›çš„çŽ°è¡Œï¼Œæ˜¯ä¸šæ‰€é€ ä½œçš„æžœï¼Œæ‰€è°““å–„æ�¶åˆ°å¤´ç»ˆæœ‰æŠ¥”，就是这个æ„�æ€�的说明。
业，有个人å�•ç‹¬é€ 作的，也有与他人共å�Œé€ 作的；有的虽然å�•ç‹¬é€ 作，但也å�¯ä»¥å’Œä»–人相å�Œï¼Œæœ‰çš„虽与他人共å�Œé€ 作，但也å�„有轻é‡�ä¸�å�Œã€‚å› æ¤ï¼Œä¸šçš„ç§�类，从大体上说，分有“共业”å�Š“ä¸�共业”的两大类。
由于共业，所以感得å�Œæ ·çš„业报；地ç�ƒï¼Œä¾¿æ˜¯ç”±äºŽåœ°ç�ƒä¸–界的众生——过去ã€�现在ã€�未æ�¥çš„æ— æ•°ä¼—ç”Ÿçš„å…±ä¸šæ‰€æ„Ÿï¼Œè€Œæœ‰å�„ç±»ä¸�å�Œçš„共业，所以也感得å�„ç§�ä¸�å�Œçš„世界，太空之ä¸ï¼Œå®‡å®™ä¹‹é—´ï¼Œæœ‰ç�€æ— æ•°æ— é‡�的世界，它们的æˆ�å› ï¼Œéƒ½æ˜¯ç”±äºŽå�„ç±»ä¸�å�Œçš„æ— æ•°ä¼—ç”Ÿï¼Œæ‰€é€ å�„ç±»ä¸�å�Œçš„共业而æˆ�。所以，ç�«æ˜Ÿä¸Šå¦‚果真的有人，ç�«æ˜Ÿäººçš„形体，未必也和地ç�ƒäººçš„å½¢ä½“ä¸€æ ·ã€‚è‡³äºŽé‚£äº›æ— äººçš„æ˜Ÿç�ƒï¼Œä¹ƒè‡³é‚£äº›æ²¡æœ‰ç”Ÿç‰©å˜åœ¨çš„星ç�ƒï¼Œè™½ä¸�是众生活动的舞å�°ï¼Œä½†å�´ä¹Ÿæ˜¯ä¸ºäº†ä¼—生活动的舞å�°è€Œå˜åœ¨ï¼›å®‡å®™ä¹‹é—´ï¼Œä¸‡äº‹ä¸‡ç‰©ï¼Œæ²¡æœ‰ä¸€ç§�现象没有其å˜åœ¨çš„ç�†ç”±ã€‚比如，太阳上ä¸�å�¯èƒ½æœ‰ç”Ÿç‰©ï¼Œä½†å¦‚没有太阳的è¯�，地ç�ƒä¸Šçš„ç”Ÿç‰©ä¹Ÿå°†æ— æ³•ç”Ÿå˜ï¼›è™½ç„¶æœ‰è®¸å¤šçš„äº‹ç‰©ï¼Œæ— æ³•ç”¨ç§‘å¦çš„观点è¯�明其å˜åœ¨çš„ç�†ç”±ï¼Œä½†åœ¨ä½›æ•™çš„解释，一切都是由于众生的业力所感，那就是它们å˜åœ¨çš„ç�†ç”±ã€‚
至于生命在地ç�ƒä¸Šæœ€åˆ�的出现，佛教相信是由å�˜åŒ–而æ�¥ï¼Œä¸‹è‡³å�•ç»†èƒžçš„ç”Ÿç‰©ï¼Œä¸Šè‡³äººç±»ï¼Œéƒ½æ˜¯ä¸€æ ·ã€‚åœ°ç�ƒå½¢æˆ�之å�Žæœ€åˆ�的人类，是由色界第å…天的光音天而æ�¥ï¼Œä»–们是飞空而æ�¥çš„ï¼Œé‚£æ˜¯ç”±äºŽä»–ä»¬çš„å •è�½ï¼Œè´ªçˆ±äº†åœ°ç�ƒä¸Šçš„一ç§�天然食物，å�ƒäº†ä¹‹å�Žï¼Œèº«ä½“ç²—é‡�ä¸�能飞行了，就在地上安居下æ�¥ï¼ˆä¸–è®°ç»�ã€�大楼ç‚ç»�ã€�起世ç»�ç‰ï¼‰ã€‚实际上，那也是出于他们的业报所致，天ç¦�享尽之时，必须è¦�æ�¥åœ°ä¸Šéš�业å�—报。æ£åƒ�以å�Žæ‰€æœ‰çš„ä¼—ç”Ÿä¸€æ ·ï¼Œæ—¢ç„¶å…ˆç”±å…±å�Œçš„业力，感æˆ�了一个地ç�ƒï¼Œå²‚能ä¸�æ�¥æŽ¥å�—地ç�ƒç”Ÿæ´»çš„果报？一旦在地ç�ƒä¸–界的业报å�—完，å�ˆå°†å¾€ç”Ÿåº”往的他方世界ä¸åŽ»ã€‚
å�ˆç”±äºŽä¸�共业的ç�†ç”±ï¼Œè™½ç„¶å�Œæ ·ç”Ÿåœ¨åœ°ç�ƒä¸–界，å“�类的高下，也就ä¸�å�Œï¼Œä¸‹è‡³æ˜†è™«ï¼Œä¸Šè‡³äººç±»ï¼Œäººç±»ä¹‹ä¸ï¼Œè´«å¯Œè´µè´±ï¼Œä¸Šæ™ºä¸‹æ„šï¼Œä¹Ÿæœ‰å�ƒå·®ä¸‡åˆ«ã€‚
事实上，共业，也是ä¸�共业的分类，比如地ç�ƒä¼—生的共业与他方世界众生的共业相比，便æˆ�了ä¸�共业；å�Œæ ·çš„，ä¸�共业，也是共业的分类，比如é�žæ´²çš„黑ç§�人与亚洲的黄ç§�人，是由ä¸�å…±ä¸šæ‰€æ„Ÿï¼Œä½†å› å½¼æ¤éƒ½æ˜¯åœ°ç�ƒä¸–界的人类，所以ä»�由共业所感。以æ¤ç±»æŽ¨ï¼Œå�Œåœ¨ä¸€ä¸ªå›½å®¶çš„人民，也有å�ƒä¸‡å·®åˆ«ï¼Œä¹ƒè‡³å�Œåœ¨ä¸€ä¸ªå®¶åºï¼Œå…„弟姊妹，也是å�„有å�„çš„æ€§æ ¼ï¼Œå�„有å�„çš„æˆ�就，å�„有å�„的生活感å�—。
source:http://www.purelandsect.com/zhxfj/crfm_yzhshcnlld.htm
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Okie i read most of the replies...
I prompt these question because sometime ago a friend asked me something similar beyond what i asked, i did gave an answer to his question with some reading material, these question i asked is a transformation of his question, which i am curious.
Q1..the thing is called consciousness...let me put it in chinese(精神世界/æ„�识）do not know if i use the correct chinese term.In other religion it is said to be é‚é„。
Q2.No expiring date...continue rebirth..(this one i agreed)
Q3.This one got a few saying...as personally i believe mankind will be lesser in population due to their doing...and there is a burning core in centre of earth, it is predicted that this core of the earth will be overheated and burst out the geotermal heart or maybe explode...
Anyway, thanks for the above replies...appreciated
Extracted
å�Žä¸¥ç»�：‘世界之åˆ�å…ˆæˆ�虚空，次æˆ�æ— è‰²ç•Œï¼Œå†�æˆ�色界，å†�次æˆ�欲界。’佛教常讲‘空’，但椑空’（如色ä¸�异空，色å�³æ˜¯ç©ºï¼‰å¹¶ä¸�是‘虚空’，佛教的‘空’是指‘如æ�¥è—�’或‘自性’，是一ç§�‘ç»�对的境界’，而‘虚空’是‘å› è‰²è€Œæœ‰’的相对境界，佛教认为世界ã€�众生皆æº�于宇宙之本体（å�³è‡ªæ€§ï¼‰ï¼Œè™šç©ºäº¦ä¸�例外，由自性起‘æ— æ˜Ž’（å�³å¾®å°�的执著）然å�Žå°±å…ˆæœ‰‘虚空’ï¼ˆå› åˆ†åˆ«è€Œæœ‰ï¼‰ï¼Œç„¶å�Žå†�生出结构简å�•ï¼ˆä¹Ÿå°±æ˜¯æ‰§è‘—很å°�ï¼Œä¸šåŠ›å¾ˆè½»çš„ï¼‰çš„æ— è‰²ç•Œä¼—ç”Ÿï¼Œè¿™äº›ä¼—ç”Ÿæ²¡æœ‰é¢œè‰²æˆ–ç‰©è´¨ï¼Œå�ªæœ‰‘æ„�念’（也就是由‘识’å½¢æˆ�的生命），我们人类若禅定修得很好，到达‘空定’，æ»å�Žå°±å�¯èƒ½ç”Ÿåˆ°è¿™ç§�天界。执著ç¨�深一点就有色界众生出现，这些众生å�ªæœ‰è‰²ç›¸ï¼Œä½†æ²¡æœ‰æ·«ã€�食二欲，在人间修禅定到四禅天以下，æ»å�Žä¼šç”Ÿåˆ°è‰²ç•Œè¯¸å¤©ã€‚梵天就是色界的åˆ�禅天。执著ã€�业力å†�大的众生就出生在欲界，欲界天的众生有食欲ã€�淫欲与ç�¡çœ ，æ¤ç•Œæœ‰ç²¾ç¥žå¢ƒç•Œçš„欲界å…天（å�³å››å¤©çŽ‹å¤©ï¼Œä»žåˆ©å¤©ï¼Œå¤œæ‘©å¤©ï¼Œå…œçŽ‡å¤©ï¼Œä¹�å�˜åŒ–天与他自在天），有物质界与神识å�ˆä¸€çš„‘人’与‘畜生’，亦有很苦的‘æ�¶é¬¼’与‘地狱’é�“众生。这一些ä¸�å�Œå¢ƒç•Œçš„ä¼—ç”Ÿæ˜¯å› ä¸º‘心的状æ€�ä¸�å�Œ’而产生的。以上是就大乘佛教的‘心’的观点æ�¥è¯´ä¼—生的起生次第，而å°�乘的阿å�«ç»�就以较‘实际’的观点æ�¥è¯´ï¼Œå¦‚起世ç»�：‘世间转已，如是æˆ�时，诸众生ç‰ï¼Œå¤šå¾—生于光音天上，是诸众生生彼天时，喜悦为食，自然光明，å�ˆæœ‰ç¥žé€šï¼Œé£žè¡Œè‡ªåœ¨ï¼Œå¯¿å‘½ä¹…è¿œ……，尔时世间转å��å·²æˆ�ï¼Œç©ºæ— æœ‰ç‰©ï¼Œè¯¸æ¢µå®«ä¸ï¼Œæœªæœ‰ä¼—生，光音天上，ç¦�业尽者，乃从下生梵宫殿ä¸ï¼Œä¸�从胎生，自然化生’，这段说明ç¦�业尽的诸众生会由较高的天界下生到较低的天界。当然也暗示著会下生到更低的欲界，如人ã€�ç•œç‰ã€‚
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Two more:
ç¬¬äºŒç« é‡‘èƒŽä¸¤éƒ¨
一�两部
æ¤å®—ä¹‹æ ¹æœ¬æ•™ä¹‰ï¼Œä¸ºå�³äº‹è€ŒçœŸå½“相å�³é�“，以为宇宙法界，当体å�³æ˜¯å¤§æ—¥å¦‚æ�¥ã€‚æ¤å¤§æ—¥å¦‚æ�¥ï¼Œå…·ç�†æ™ºäºŒå¾·ã€‚ç�†è€…，摄æŒ�ä¸�散平ç‰ä¹‹æ„�ï¼Œå½“æ ¹æœ¬ä¸¤æ›¼è�¼ç½—ä¸èƒŽè—�界。智者，决æ–简择差别之æ„�，当金刚界，是为金胎两部曼è�¼ç½—。曼è�¼ç½—者，论圆具足义，旧译，就体译为å�›ï¼Œå�³ç‘方圆土å�›ä¾›å…»è¯¸å°Šï¼ˆä¿®æ³•å�›ï¼‰ï¼Œæ–°è¯‘就义译为轮圆具足。æ¤å�›ä¸å…·è¶³è¯¸å°Šè¯¸å¾·ï¼Œæˆ�一大法门，如毂è¾�辋，具足圆满，æˆ�一车轮，表圆满具备法界海所有万德。如大ç–�云：今æ¤ä¸å¦™æ³•èŽ²å�Žæ›¼è�¼ç½—义，毗å�¢é�®é‚£æœ¬åœ°å¸¸å¿ƒï¼Œå�³æ˜¯å�Žå�°å…·æœ¬ã€‚四佛四è�©è�¨é†�é†�果德，如众实俱æˆ�。å��世界微尘数金刚密慧差别智å�°ï¼ŒçŠ¹å¦‚须□。å��世界微尘数大悲万行波罗密门，犹如å�Žè—�。三乘å…é�“æ— é‡�åº”èº«ï¼ŒçŠ¹å¦‚æ ¹èŒŽæ�¡å�¶å�‘晖相间，以如是众德轮圆周备，故å��曼è�¼ç½—也。å�ˆäº‘：曼è�¼ç½—，是具ç§�ç§�德义，å�³æ˜¯å¦‚æ�¥ç§˜å¯†ä¹‹å¾·ã€‚如是秘密之德，如莲å�Žå¼€æ•·è€Œè‡ªåº„严，是故金胎两部曼è�¼ç½—者，诸佛ç�†æ™ºä¹‹ä½“性，众生色心之实相也。如å��ä½�心论云：秘密庄严ä½�心者，å�³æ˜¯ç©¶ç«Ÿå¦‚实觉知自心之æº�底，如实è¯�悟身之数é‡�，所谓胎è—�界会曼è�¼ç½—，金刚界会曼è�¼ç½—，金刚顶å��八会曼è�¼ç½—，是也。å�ˆå¤§ç–�云：佛从平ç‰å¿ƒåœ°å¼€å�‘æ— å°½åº„ä¸¥è—�大曼è�¼ç½—已，还用开å�‘众生平ç‰å¿ƒåœ°æ— 尽庄严è—�大曼è�¼ç½—。诚以诸佛法性身心，众生具缚色心，皆ç�†ç�†æ— æ•°æ™ºæ™ºæ— è¾¹ä¹‹é‡‘èƒŽä¸¤éƒ¨ï¼Œè€Œä¼—ç”Ÿç‹‚é†‰ï¼Œä¸�觉ä¸�知，为开å�‘众生自心所具万德故，建立两曼è�¼ç½—。所谓金刚界者，金刚有二义，一å�šå›ºä¹‰ï¼Œè‡ªä½“å�šå›ºã€‚ä¸�å�¯ç ´å��，故云å�šå›ºï¼Œå�ˆåˆ©ç”¨ä¹‰ï¼Œèƒ½æ‘§ç ´ä¸€åˆ‡ç‰©ï¼Œæ•…云利用。智体亦尔，沉沦生æ»æµ·ä¸ï¼Œä¸�朽ä¸�å��ï¼Œè¿˜èƒ½æ‘§ç ´ä¸€åˆ‡çƒ¦æ�¼ï¼Œæ•…å��金刚。所谓胎è—�界者，约胎è—�为喻。胎è—�有二义，一å�«è—�义，如æ¯�胎内，å�«è—�å�体。ç�†ä½“亦尔，能具足一切功德，å�ˆéš�覆义，如人在æ¯�胎，覆è—�其体。ç�†ä½“亦尔，éš�烦æ�¼ä¸ã€‚æ¤åº”译胎è—�法，对金刚界故，å��胎è—�界，å�³é‡‘刚界者，智差别之法门。胎è—�界者，ç�†å¹³ç‰ä¹‹æ³•é—¨ã€‚æ¤äºŒäºŒè€Œä¸€ï¼Œä¸€è€ŒäºŒï¼Œå¯†æ•™è°“之二而ä¸�二。兹列表如下：
金刚界 智 差别 心法 竖 识大 大智 佛
二 �二
胎è—�ç•Œ ç�† å¹³ç‰ è‰²æ³• 横 五大 大悲 众生
元��智者，一法之二义，�二而二。故云法体�分，义门得别。
source:http://bookgb.bfnn.org/books2/1312.htm
This one pictorial:
http://www.kaiwu.com/jcxs/hzsj.htm
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