where do we go after we die?
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Originally posted by longchen:
Just my opinion only...
The dark space is the infinite, borderless and all-pervading quality of Dharmakaya. The luminosity is.. well... the 'brightness' aspect of Dharmakaya. I have experienced both aspects.... perhaps different situation will create a different emphasis.
As for Kabbalah, i am not an expert on it. Bob, is the real expert... but he doesn't come up to my forum nowadays.
regards
I see.. thanks for the clarifications :) I get what you mean...
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Not so relevant, but nevertheless interesting... actually certain portions also applies to the topic of A True Modern-Day Story of Karma
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http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes22.html
Philosophical questions on Creation
Select a link to find the Dalai Lama's answer.
- "You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God?"
- "...Like all spiritual traditions, Buddhism conveys a cosmogonic myth. And yet Buddhism rejects the idea of creation. Why?...Would you [also] ... speak to us about consciousness in its relation to matter and the universe?"
Q: You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God?
A: I understand the Primordial Buddha, also known as Buddha Samantabhadra, to be the ultimate reality, the realm of the Dharmakaya-- the space of emptiness--where all phenomena, pure and impure, are dissolved. This is the explanation taught by the Sutras and Tantras. However, in the context of your question, the tantric tradition is the only one which explains the Dharmakaya in terms of Inherent clear light, the essential nature of the mind; this would seem imply that all phenomena, samsara and nirvana, arise from this clear and luminous source. Even the New School of Translation came to the conclusion that the "state of rest" of a practitioner of the Great Yoga--Great Yoga implies here the state of the practitioner who has reached a stage in meditation where the most subtle experience of clear light has been realized--that for as long as the practitioner remains in this ultimate sphere he or she remains totally free of any sort of veil obscuring the mind, and is immersed in a state of great bliss.
We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein. But we must be careful in speaking of this source, we must not be led into error. I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level.
Likewise, when we speak of karma as the cause of the universe we eliminate the notion of a unique entity called karma existing totally independently. Rather, collective karmic impressions, accumulated individually, are at the origin of the creation of a world. When, in the tantric context, we say that all worlds appear out of clear light, we do not visualize this source as a unique entity, but as the ultimate clear light of each being. We can also, on the basis of its pure essence, understand this clear light to be the Primordial Buddha. All the stages which make up the life of each living being--death, the intermediate state, and rebirth--represent nothing more than the various manifestations of the potential of clear light. It is both the most subtle consciousness and energy. The more clear light loses its subtlety, the more your experiences take shape.
In this way, death and the intermediate state are moments where the gross manifestations emanating from clear light are reabsorbed. At death we return to that original source, and from there a slightly more gross state emerges to form the intermediate state preceding rebirth. At the stage of rebirth, clear light is apparent in a physical incarnation. At death we return to this source. And so on. The ability to recognize subtle clear light, also called the Primordial Buddha, is equivalent to realizing nirvana, whereas ignorance of the nature of clear light leaves us to wander in the different realms of samsaric existence.
This is how I understand the concept of the Primordial Buddha. It would be a grave error to conceive of it as an independent and autonomous existence from beginningless time. If we had to accept the idea of an independent creator, the explanations given in the Pramanavartika, the "Compendium of Valid Knowledge" written by Dharmakirti, and in the ninth chapter of the text by Shantideva, which completely refutes the existence per se of all phenomena, would be negated. This, in turn, would refute the notion of the Primordial Buddha. The Buddhist point of view does not accept the validity of affirmations which do not stand up to logical examination. If a sutra describes the Primordial Buddha as an autonomous entity, we must be able to interpret this assertion without taking it literally. We call this type of sutra an "interpretable" sutra.
Q: Interest im the discoveries of modern astrophysics and the "Big bang" theory reveal both a great fascination in the cosmos and a probing interrogation by members of our generation into their origins, their destiny and the meaning of their existence. The "Big bang" theory has had a significant impact on our way of looking at matter and nature; it has introduced considerable conceptual innovations. The formation of the structures of the universe, which function in interdependence, and which new research continues to reveal, is a seemingly endless source of wonder. Like all spiritual traditions, Buddhism conveys a cosmogonic myth. And yet Buddhism rejects the idea of creation. Why?
Most Western scientists think that life and consciousness are a magnificent result of the universe's material evolution, and yet they know neither how nor why matter emerged in such a way as to fulfill the conditions necessary to engender life and consciousness. What they do know is that these conditions are very strict, yet have nevertheless been fulfilled in our universe in an astonishing way. You have a very different point of view on this subject. Would you therefore speak to us about consciousness in its relation to matter and the universe?
A: Why is there no creation possible in Buddhism? It has been said that one cannot find living beings at the becoming of the universe for the essential reason that causes have no beginning. If there were a beginning to the universe, there would also have to be a beginning to consciousness. If we accepted a beginning to consciousness, we would also have to accept that its cause has a beginning, a sudden cause which would have instantly produced consciousness; this would lead to a great many other questions. If consciousness had arisen without cause, or from a permanent cause, that cause would have to exist on. a permanent basis, always, or not exist at all, ever. The fact that a phenomenon exists intermittently proves that it depends on causes and conditions. When all the conditions are met, the phenomenon is produced. When those conditions are absent or incomplete, the phenomenon does not appear. As causes have no beginning and stretch back to infinity, the same thing must apply for living beings. Creation is therefore not possible.
Let us now consider a particular phenomenon, a glacier for example: it does indeed have a beginning. How was it created? The outside world appears as a result of the acts of sentient beings who use this world, These acts, or karmas, in turn originate in the intentions and motivations of those beings who have not yet taken control of their minds.
The "creator of the world," basically, is the mind. In the Sutras, the mind is described as an agent. It is said that consciousness has no beginning, but we must distinguish here between gross consciousness and subtle consciousness. Many gross consciousnesses appear as dependents of the physical aggregates, of the body. This is evident when you consider the different neurons and the functioning of the brain, but just because physical conditions are met does not mean that this is enough to produce a perception. In order for a perception which will have the faculty to reflect and know an object to arise, it must have a consubstantial cause. The fundamental consubstantial cause, of the same substance as its result, will in this case be the subtle consciousness. It is this same consciousness or subtle mind which penetrates the parental cells at the moment of conception. The subtle mind can have no beginning. If it had one, the mind would have to be born of something that is not the mind. According to the Kalacakra Tantra, one would have to return to the particles of space to find the fundamental consubstantial causes of the external physical world as well as of the bodies of sentient beings.
Buddhist cosmology establishes the cycle of a universe in the following way: first there is a period of formation, then a period where the universe endures, then another during which it is destroyed, followed by a period of void before the formation of a new universe. During this void, the particles of space subsist, and from these particles the new universe will be formed. It is in these particles of space that we find the fundamental consubstantial cause of the entire physical world. If we wish to describe the formation of the universe and the physical bodies of beings, all we need do is analyse and comprehend the way in which the natural potential of different chemical and other elements constituting that universe was able to take shape from these space particles. It is on the basis of the specific potential of those particles that the structure of this universe and of the bodies of the beings present therein have come about. But from the moment the elements making up the world begin to set off different experiences of suffering and happiness among sentient beings, we must introduce the notion of karma -- that is, positive and negative acts committed and accumulated in the past. It is difficult to determine where the natural expression of the potential of physical elements ends and the effect of karma -- in other words, the result of our past acts -- begins. If you wonder what the relation might be between karma and this external environment formed by natural laws, it is time to explain what karma is.
Karma means, first of all, action. We distinguish one type of karma which is of a mental nature, a mental factor of volition or intention. There also exist physical and oral karmas. To understand the connection between these physical, oral, or mental karmas and the material world, we must refer to the tantric texts. The Kalacakra Tantra in particular explains that in our bodies there are to be found, at gross, subtle, and extremely subtle levels, the five elements which make up the substance of the external world. It is therefore in this context, I believe, that we must envision the connection between our physical, oral, and mental karmas, and the external elements.
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The material on this page has been collected from the recent book, "Beyond Dogma: The Challenge of the Modern World", (c) 1996 North Atlantic Books, translated by Alison Anderson and Marianne Dresser from talks given during His Holiness's visit to France end 1993.
E-MAIL: All enquiries, comments and suggestions welcome. -
Dalai Lama: ...We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein....
...All the stages which make up the life of each living being--death, the intermediate state, and rebirth--represent nothing more than the various manifestations of the potential of clear light...
Jesus Christ, from the Gospel of Thomas:
77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
50 Jesus said,
"If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'
If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'
If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"
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Originally posted by longchen:
Just my opinion only...
The dark space is the infinite, borderless and all-pervading quality of Dharmakaya. The luminosity is.. well... the 'brightness' aspect of Dharmakaya. I have experienced both aspects.... perhaps different situation will create a different emphasis.
As for Kabbalah, i am not an expert on it. Bob, is the real expert... but he doesn't come up to my forum nowadays.
regards
Also, the brightness aspect can differ in intensity and 'expansiveness' right?
It reminds me of a quote from Zen Master Han Shan:
57. The clearer the body, the brighter one’s Buddha Nature shines. In the beginning, we still need the body. It’s like a lamp. The Buddha Nature is this flame. But we may still be conscious of shadows. As we progress we feel that the body is the universe itself and that our Buddha Self shines throughout it like the sun.
http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/HanShan/hanshan-maxims.html
This also reminds me of something by Thusness many years back, he said something like, Clarity is the inverse proportion of Self. (i.e. identification with body/mind)
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Found it:
Yes there is no beyond and everything is merely 'This'. When we tok about awareness it has to be only One, this is what Awareness is and it has to be so, non-dual by nature. Therefore opening up is to give up all and everything relating to 'self'. No-self and just 'the everything', clarity and Self is an inverse relationship. The mathematical formula for it:
Clarity = 1/Self
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Struggles, confusions, sufferingsÂ….there is no escape. Before the arisen of unarisen factor of enlightenment, progress will not be stable. After that, wonder, bliss, and clarity will springs from nowhere to everywhere -- the fruition of simplicity and ordinariness.
The essence, the Presence can be hardly termed ‘Self’. The degree of clarity is the inverse function of Self:
Clarity = (1/Self).
Practice no-self and mindfulness, it is safest. It is difficult not to be egoistic when one attains.
Originally so, nothing attained nothing gained.
DonÂ’t move, nothing within, nothing without, spontaneity everywhere.
Mysterious gate opens, valley spirit seen.
Self So.
Ant bites, ouch! Â… Â… Â… Â… Â… Â… Â…
Â… -
Furthermore, he is told to awaken to the fact that all these fearsome creatures are not real, but are merely illusions emanating from his own mind. If he can recognize this, they will vanish and he will be liberated. If he can't, he eventually wanders down to the third bardo.
I had a lucid nightmare yesterday.
Was in this room, and suddenly a strong bout of fear came into me, and I had feeling that a monster or a ghost is going to come out of the alley. True enough, a tall fearsome shadowy figure came out of the alley and towards me, and my fear intensify even further.
But suddenly there was this awareness that all these are just the projections of my mind! And I became so present, so aware, and just abide as that present awareness... I did not suppress the fearsome feelings, there's still this feeling arising but theres a recognition that all these are illusion, and if you do not believe in your fear how can it affect you? They also quickly subsided.
Immediately as I become so present and aware, the image of the room and the monster disappears and there was just this bright white light. The tensions continue to arise a while even in this state, but they also slowly subsided.. Because I stopped projecting all the thoughts, only staying as awareness. Soon, I woke up.
I have a feeling that this might be what happens when death comes, except more intense. The dream is almost like a form of bardo state.
Also, a lot of fear are conceptual... we have to be completely present, aware, in order not to continue projecting them or believing in the projections as separate fearful entities. The experience gave me a kind of confidence of the possibility of remaining fearless in the midst of 'fearful situations', though of course I am far from living in that state continously.
I remember I was asking Longchen the other day I met him, I asked something like... does an enlightened person feel fear when watching horror movies? His answer was something like, that if you do not believe in the story, the conceptual fear can subside.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Furthermore, he is told to awaken to the fact that all these fearsome creatures are not real, but are merely illusions emanating from his own mind. If he can recognize this, they will vanish and he will be liberated. If he can't, he eventually wanders down to the third bardo.
I had a lucid nightmare yesterday.
Was in this room, and suddenly a strong bout of fear came into me, and I had feeling that a monster or a ghost is going to come out of the alley. True enough, a tall fearsome shadowy figure came out of the alley and towards me, and my fear intensify even further.
But suddenly there was this awareness that all these are just the projections of my mind! And I became so present, so aware, and just abide as that present awareness... I did not suppress the fearsome feelings, there's still this feeling arising but theres a recognition that all these are illusion, and if you do not believe in your fear how can it affect you? They also quickly subsided.
Immediately as I become so present and aware, the image of the room and the monster disappears and there was just this bright white light. The tensions continue to arise a while even in this state, but they also slowly subsided.. Because I stopped projecting all the thoughts, only staying as awareness. Soon, I woke up.
I have a feeling that this might be what happens when death comes, except more intense. The dream is almost like a form of bardo state.
Also, a lot of fear are conceptual... we have to be completely present, aware, in order not to continue projecting them or believing in the projections as separate fearful entities. The experience gave me a kind of confidence of the possibility of remaining fearless in the midst of 'fearful situations', though of course I am far from living in that state continously.
I remember I was asking Longchen the other day I met him, I asked something like... does an enlightened person feel fear when watching horror movies? His answer was something like, that if you do not believe in the story, the conceptual fear can subside.
Very good dream.
The lucidity allows one to see the illusion. The dream monster disapears means that the spell is broken at that time. This will translate into the waking hours. We will see how conceptual thinking (narrative of the mind) can bind us into a spell-like state.
Also, the dream monster symbolise a certain aspect of our karmic habit that is still not fully known yet. But you will discover it in due time when the karmic habit appear during the waking hours.
regards
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Originally posted by longchen:
Very good dream.
The lucidity allows one to see the illusion. The dream monster disapears means that the spell is broken at that time. This will translate into the waking hours. We will see how conceptual thinking (narrative of the mind) can bind us into a spell-like state.
Also, the dream monster symbolise a certain aspect of our karmic habit that is still not fully known yet. But you will discover it in due time when the karmic habit appear during the waking hours.
regards
I see... thanks for the sharing. "Spell-like state" is the word. When I first had this lucidity and recognised that all that was the projection of my mind, the tendency to project was still there. I understood that I could either remain in present awareness and then all will subside or if I lose mindfulness I would fall back into the dream. I just stayed in present, naked non-reactive awareness and refuse to 'give in' to the illusions.
The same case goes for waking hours... I have to practice being in thoughtfree awakeness to be liberated from all spell-like states
p.s. what kind of karmic habit? lol