A True Modern-Day Story of Karma

• Uncreated

  25 Jun 08, 01:33

   This true story is taken from the Chinese Buddhist
  book"Xian Dai Yin Guo Shi Lu"(True Stories of Karma in
  Modern Times)printed by Guo Ying Publishers(AMK)for free
  distribution.
     Mr.B was a young,well-educated male Chinese who had
   just received his Green Card.Everything,including career,
  courtship and marriage were looking promising for him
  when one day......
     "My colleague is shooting invisible rays at me to
  harm me.Luckily,I know some qigong which protect me,"
  he said to his family members.
     In fact,it was this colleague who had helped him to
  get into the company.Mr.B became so paranoiac and fearful
  that he quitted his job.He stayed at home,but still felt
  anxious.
     "He is at it again.He wants to kill me,"he said.
     To better protect himself,he constructed a crude metal
  contraption that could cover his body but not his face.He
  would then sleep inside it each night.Even so,he felt
  restless and tense and his sleep was poor.
     His family,worried sick by his bizzare behaviour,managed
  to get into contact with Venerable Miao Fa,a Buddhist monk.
  He told the family members about the karmic causes of Mr.B's
  mental illness.He said that a great grandfather or a great
  great grandfather of Mr.B wrote and published ghost stories
  in his times.Those stories had frightened many readers,some
  of whom became terrified of walking alone in the dark.The
  monk then instructed them to check their family tree for an
  ancestor around the Qing period to find out if he was an
  author.
     However,the family was skeptical about this so-called
  karma of Mr.B.They wanted to know how his mental condition,
  which had turned a happy family topsy-turvy,could be cured.
  The monk instructed the family members to print and
  distribute the Surangama Sutra(Shurangama Sutra)to counter
  the karmic effects of those unwholesome books of the ancestor.
  These ghostly materials,by striking fear into sentient beings,
  had produced mental karmic effects which strike the descendant/
  descendants of the writer.Venerable Miao Fa assured them that
  if they carried out his instructions and dedicate the merits
  to Mr.B,he would gradually lose his irrational fear.
     In this book,True Stories of Karma in Modern Times,the
  names of persons and places have been altered,but the
  accounts are true,as they have been recorded by a personal
  assistant of this"Miao Fa".
  
                                     The Little Wooden Hut
                                     Of
                                     Madhyamaka-Yogacara
  
  
  
  
  

• An Eternal Now

  25 Jun 08, 01:38

  I do not believe, and do not think think this is supported by the scriptures, that your descendents have to suffer for your karma.

  Unless that guy is himself the 'old great grandfather' in his past life.

  p.s. what does this mean:
                                     The Little Wooden Hut
                                     Of
                                     Madhyamaka-Yogacara

• Uncreated

  25 Jun 08, 02:20

  It seems that this monk"Miao Fa" had some sort of psychic power which he uses to help others.As to cross-generational karmic effects,personally I do think they exist,though I can't find any scriptural support yet.It may have something to do with bloodline,maybe like certain hereditary diseases(haemophilia?)that pass down from generation to generation in a bloodline.If one has done a considerable amount of good works in one's lifetime,I don't think  the descendants do not benefit one iota at all.If there is collective karma,perhaps there is bloodline karma too.What is more important is that this monk could help others ,with concrete results.I also don't think he would lie as a monk,or utter something that he himself had not experientially known to be true.

    The Wooden Hut?

   I live there.lol

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

• Uncreated

  25 Jun 08, 06:38

  There are some Buddhist references of cross-generational karma,though they are not

  found in the Canon.Below is one in Chinese:

  http://www.jiexieyu.cn/bbs/redirect.php?fid=27&tid=7860&go

• Uncreated

  25 Jun 08, 06:42

  Sorry.

  Here it is:

  父造�业，儿媳堕入畜�（信�录）

  �兰墅先生说：康熙丙�年，�州油烛桥猪行���德甫，�猪�肉三�多年，一儿一媳，六月里接连死了。�月里，德甫夫妻， 梦�儿媳归家，儿�穿的白衣，腰巾黑带，媳妇穿�色衣，说到闲�镇�家投狗，求二��看我们，认衣�的颜色。德甫夫妻惊醒，第二日到�家去看。�家夫妻， 夜里也�样作了这梦，在梦中问他二人，你是�家的�媳，为什么到这里�？答说：�投胎，求你们�怜。��两男一女闯进�，�家夫妻惊醒。早晨�德甫夫妻� 问：你家媳妇生产么？�家回说：两个媳妇都没怀孕，�有�狗，生了几��狗。一看三�雄，两�雌；内有两狗，�梦中儿媳衣�的颜色。�家夫妻，哭诉他儿媳 托梦的情形，都很惊奇。两狗离了�乳时，由�家带回家去。

• Display Name

  25 Jun 08, 11:14

  This story sounds like telling people that ancestor's karma pass to descendants.
  My opinion is if the ancestor make some bad karma and deem to suffer from it, for example bankrupt for many lifes.
  Then the condition will be that only those beings that has similar karma or habitual tendency will be born as his children. 所谓物以类�. Just like people who like to have fun talk more often with fun loving people. Coz they click. Of coz these beings must have some karmic relationship with this guy in order to be naturally attracted to his family.
  
  However, this can be overriden if the person to be born has strong vow. For example a bodhisatva who want to go to a poor family to help the people. Or let's say a being that want to take revenge vow to born in his enemy's family to destroy what he has. Sometimes they don't need to make any "official" vow, they just deeply feel it, that's it.
  That's why purelanders should abolish their hatred and greed on worldly stuffs.
  
  Our mind is a very powerful tool. There was a research done in a university, and it shows that when a person think something, this can affect people around him even without any word spoken. The effect multiply if more people have same thinking at the same time. If I remember correctly the formula, it is like 100 * (mind * number of people) square.
  Got this time I chat face to face with some high venerables, I just feel that they very compassion and nice, don't know why.
  
  So back to the story, the bad karma that his ancestor done is in a loop coz there are still people who read this ghost stories. That's why my master told me if one so strongly hates a person and think about it everyday, the bad karma can be more serious than killing a person.

• Forrest_Gump

  25 Jun 08, 13:34

  where can i find this venerable. maybe can solve my problem

• sinweiy

  25 Jun 08, 13:48

  i was abt to write but it seem Display Name wrote wat i was going to write.

  ...these beings(children) must have some karmic relationship with this guy(parent) in order to be naturally attracted to his family.

  i also feel karma is very complicated, it can work both ways. i use to have this query.

  A little bit responsible for others actions?, considering collective karma:-
  http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=15081&hl=

  not just u reap wat u sow..our action also influence wat people reap & sow.

   

  btw, i posted

  Yin Guo Shi Lu (Real Karma records)(chinese mp3s downloads) before:-

  http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/289150

  /\

• sinweiy

  25 Jun 08, 13:56

  Originally posted by Forrest_Gump:

  where can i find this venerable. maybe can solve my problem

  
  i know the author used an "imaginary" place in Mount Wu Tai, to protect Ven "Miao Fa". the audio is dated 1993. Ven "Miao Fa" could also not be His real name.

  /\

• An Eternal Now

  25 Jun 08, 16:50

  In my understanding, karma cannot be passed down from ancestor to descendent.

  Karma is individual, and karma means actions/volition or a momentum that forms imprint in our 8th consciousness. If the seed is not there, committed by the individual through his action from mind/speech/action in his past life or a past time, he will not have such karma at all. And he will not have such karmic ripening.

  First of all we must understand that there is no such thing as a collective 8th consciousness. There is only individual streams of 8th consciousness, individual mindstreams, no collective mind. A collective mind/consciousness is a non-Buddhist, 外� concept. This does not mean that supernatural powers and mind reading (and so on) cannot occur, they occur due to the non-locality/emptiness/dependent arising nature of consciousness, but has nothing to do with a collective mind... and the true nature of all being's consciousness is luminous and empty.

  Conventionally speaking, we MUST take it that mindstream, karma, and various physical-mental conditionings are separate, individual streams, (i.e. not 'collective') even though ultimately they are empty of self and phenomena, merely dependently arisen appearances, each moment is spontaneous and absolute in itself, and inseparable from causes and conditions. Why do I say they are individual? Because there are different sets of causes and conditionings, producing different sets of experiences. There is no shared entity or consciousness of any sorts -- consciousness is inseparable from causes and conditionings. Due to karmic vision, human sees red flower, dog sees black and white, ghost sees river as fire, and so on. Nothing 'shared' at all -- only causes and conditionings producing illusory appearances, fundamentally empty, yet a vivid appearance of luminosity. Every experience is different due to different conditionings, there is no such thing as a 'same' or 'shared' consciousness, even though all diverse phenomena have one taste -- luminous-emptiness.

  However, it is possible that a group of people, committing the same deeds, plant the same kind of seeds, and as a result create what we call collective karma.

  That means, in each individual 8th consciousness mindstream, through the same sort of actions they performed together, they each form the same kind of imprints in their 8th consciousness. As a result, some time in the future when conditions are ripen, they will 'collectively' ripen together.

  HOWEVER, this has nothing to do with ancestors passing down karma into descendents. This is because the ancestor and the descendent are separate mindstreams, and if the descendents have not had the same karmic seed as the ancestor in their 8th consciousness, they cannot possibly have the same sort of occurences.

  But, it is possible that through the karma of an individual, i.e. the conditions are there, to conceive a child with illnesses and things like that due to the karma of his own action. This is not because his own karma caused the child to have illness, but because somehow the causes and conditions are there, both the parent and child have the same resonating causes and conditions to be born in the same family.

  For example, there is a true story about two parents who had been good in their whole life, but conceived a retarded child. They found a venerable to ask about the karmic causes, the venerable told him that this child was a druglord in his past life. The parents ask why do they have to be born in my family? The venerable answered that you two were his accomplice in his past life. So now you have to take care of him for your whole life. Because of the various karmic conditionings, they all appear in the same family. It is not because of their ancestors, or not because of one person's personal actions, but due to every single person's karma that such congregation is possible.

  Therefore good ancestors can get good descendents, but in the case of a 'great grandfather' or 'great great grandfather', I can't really see how that is possible. It could be possible that the person himself is the great great grandfather in his past life.

• sinweiy

  25 Jun 08, 17:22

  i was wondering,

  let's say this cult leader, preaching/influencing his unwholesome idea to his followers. and then his followers accepted this idea, go and commit unwholesome action. yes, the unwholesome Karma is commit individual by the followers. they'll reap what they sowed. yet, the cult leader having also responsible for the unwholesome Karma commited by his followers, will too have his karma reap in the lowest realms.  so cult leader reap what he sowed.

  i think a group of individual (ie individual +individual +individual ..) makes a collective. and within collective, there's individuals. collective does not negate individual, non do individual negate collective.
  the idea of individual and collective are non-dual.

  /\ 

• An Eternal Now

  25 Jun 08, 19:38

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  i was wondering,

  let's say this cult leader, preaching/influencing his unwholesome idea to his followers. and then his followers accepted this idea, go and commit unwholesome action. yes, the unwholesome Karma is commit individual by the followers. they'll reap what they sowed. yet, the cult leader having also responsible for the unwholesome Karma commited by his followers, will too have his karma reap in the lowest realms.  so cult leader reap what he sowed.

  i think a group of individual (ie individual +individual +individual ..) makes a collective. and within collective, there's individuals. collective does not negate individual, non do individual negate collective.
  the idea of individual and collective are non-dual.

  /\ 

  Yes that is what I said.

• yamizi

  25 Jun 08, 20:46

  Good books are hard to come by and usually not cheap

• Uncreated

  30 Jun 08, 15:52

  So this monk was wrong?

  But from the book ,it does appear that the "remedies" he prescribes are efficacious.

  Wouldn't he have broken the precepts if he utters false words as a monk?

  This particular monk proves that he is not a mere Dharma theoretician,but can actually

  help people with day-to-day troubles.

     Anyway,I happened to pick up this book from a public book rack,and browsed through

  it.Friends here can read the original Chinese version posted in this thread by sinweiy.I think such books do have value as they teach aspiring Dharma leaners not to create

  bad karma in their thoughts and acts.

• Uncreated

  30 Jun 08, 16:22

     My translation above has some errors.

    Such Buddhist literature are not canonical,but for beginners,they are valuable as they can nudge them to delve deeper into the Dharma.

  For the convenience of readers here who can read Chinese,I have cut and paste sinweiy's post.I hope AEN don't mind.(This is supposed to be an English forum.)

  �之过
  
  �久�，我的一�移居�国的朋�，田女士夫妇回国探亲。她忧心忡忡地对我讲述了她弟弟田�在美国患病的情况，希望此次回国我能带她拜�妙法�和尚，请教病因。（田女士一家早在93年就皈�了佛陀，一�支�弘法事业。）
  
  �到师父�，田女士详细介�了她弟弟的病情。
  
  田�到�国获得了绿�之�，与当地的一个�人女�结了婚。起�生活比较幸�。��，�知何故，竟怀疑起与他�好的一个�事，使用电�手段远�离伤害他，造 �他头痛，浑身难�。所以他就�敢�去上�，呆在家里。�是他�然感觉到�事在用电�仪器�自己进攻。他说如果�是以�练过气功，有点功夫，早就被害死 了。当别人问， �事为什么�害他时，他说是嫉妒他的�能。而实际上他的电脑水平还是得益于那个人的帮助。
  
  因为�心�胆，�食难安，他就把房间的墙上全都贴满了锡纸，说是能阻挡电�干扰。并�了一个留有通气孔的大�箱，�觉时躺进去，还�盖上盖�。好�了几 天，�然感觉抵挡��电�干扰，于是就把金属盆扣在头上，躲在墙角或床下，�时处在�度�惧中，精神几近崩溃。医生说他患了妄想型精神病，给他开了�，� 他�决��，说自己没有病。
  
  然而田女士心里��分害怕弟弟的病�严�下去，�果�堪设想。因为她知�堂�和三�家的一个孩�，早些年就患上了�样的妄想型精神病，堂�早已自�，三� 的孩�虽然活�，�长年�在安定医院，虽生犹死。现在�样的病��在自己弟弟身上，一定也�是打针��就能解决的。她想求教妙法�和尚，这究竟是�的过 错？为什么父兄两代，三�人都患了�样的病。将�会�会�传给下一代？
  
  妙法è€�和尚对田女士说：“你祖父那一辈儿人中，有一ä½�喜欢以写鬼怪æ��怖å°�说为消é�£çš„文人。他写的å°�说让人看了心惊肉跳，疑神疑鬼，夜ä¸�能å¯�。有的é�’少年， 在看了这ç§�å°�说å�Žï¼Œå†…心留下æ��怖的阴影。有的人害怕黑暗，ä¸�敢走夜路。有的人甚至在特殊的环境中，被æŸ�ç§�现象ã€�声音惊å�“致病ã€�致死。如是因，如是果，因为 å°�说æµ�传人间，贻害一代å�ˆä¸€ä»£çš„读者，而最终祸害到自己的å�Žä»£å­�孙。
  
  “越是被人喜欢阅读的å°�说，æµ�传越久。好的书ç±�，给人带æ�¥çŸ¥è¯†ã€�å¿«ä¹�，甚能催人上进，教导人å­�亲尊师，奉公守法。比如孔è€�夫å­�，贫寒一生，致力于ä»�义礼智 信的教育，虽然当时并没有被政æ�ƒæ‰€æŽ¥å�—，å�¯æ˜¯è¶Šå¾€å�Žè¶Šè¢«é‡�视，乃至历æœ�历代都尊孔å­�为圣人，炎黄å­�孙世世代代都å�—到儒家文化的滋养。孔家相传至今已七å��几 代，代代å�—人尊崇，这å�«å–„有善报。å��之，写那些æ��怖ã€�色情ã€�诲淫诲盗的å°�说ã€�æˆ�剧ã€�电视ã€�电影等，既祸害当今社会，å�ˆè´»æ‚£å�Žä»£ã€‚我们ä¸�妨回忆一下，媒体报 导过的一些自æ�€ã€�被æ�€ã€�或出车祸æ„�外的编剧ã€�导演，甚至演员，他（她）们都有过哪些作å“�出现于世，å�ˆæœ‰å“ªäº›è¡Œä¸ºè§�诸报端，就能知é�“因果报应ä¸�毫ä¸�爽。所以 拿笔æ�†å­�的人一定è¦�明因识果， ä¸�è¦�å�ªä¸ºæ�žå�–金钱，贪图一时的快ä¹�，给å­�孙留下无尽的å�Žæ‚£ã€‚è¦�知é�“：纵有å�ƒèˆ¬å¿«ä¹�，无常终归到æ�¥ï¼Œä¸€åˆ‡å¸¦å°†ä¸�去，é�—害å­�å­™å�Žä»£ã€‚害人如害已嘛。请问田女 士，你的祖辈是å�¦æœ‰å†™æ��怖å°�说的人？”
  
  “我家的背景比较å¤�æ�‚。我å°�的时候很少知é�“爷爷的情况，一是天å�„一方，二是政治原因。至于祖辈情况，知之更少，å�ªæ˜¯é•¿å¤§å�Žå�¶å°”å�¬æ¯�亲讲过一点儿。我知é�“我 父亲出身在书香门第的大家æ—�，祖父和曾祖父都是清æœ�的学士，最åˆ�把‘莎士比亚’还是哪一ä½�大作家的å°�说翻译æˆ�中文的，就是我本家的一ä½�姑姑。至于是è°�写过 æ��怖å°�说我ä¸�知é�“，但是在那样世代从文的家庭里，这是æž�有å�¯èƒ½çš„事。我深信您刚æ‰�讲的é�“ç�†ï¼Œä¸�然怎么我家接连出了三个精神失常的人呢。我现在心里很害怕， è°�知é�“那些鬼怪ã€�æ��怖å°�说什么时候æ‰�会在世上消失呢？这ç§�å�¯æ€•çš„病，岂ä¸�是è¦�代代é�—传下去ï¼�请教师父有没有办法救救我弟弟，有没有办法终止这ç§�é�—传？”
  
  师父微笑ç�€ç­”é�“：“ä½ ä¸�用害怕，既然说破此事，如果没有解决的办法岂ä¸�是å�ˆè®©ä½ ä»¬å¢žæ·»äº†ä¸€å�—心病？刚æ‰�我讲的是大的因果，具体到患有这ç§�病的个人，他的å‰� 世一定也造过å�Œæ ·çš„æ�¶å› ï¼Œæ¯”如惊å�“别人致病致死，今生æ‰�投胎到这么一个家庭，èž�入到这个家æ—�大的因果报应里é�¢æ�¥ã€‚因为你é�‡åˆ°ä½›æ³•è€Œèƒ½ç›¸ä¿¡ï¼Œå¹¶ä¸”还能尽已所 能护æŒ�佛教，所以为你的家人积累了ç¦�报，结下了佛缘。因此你弟弟是有希望康å¤�的。你是ä¸�是还没有å�ƒå…¨ç´ ï¼Ÿ”
  
  “是，师父。”
  
  “那你回去å�Žï¼Œèƒ½ä¸�能å�‘心å�ƒé•¿æ–‹ï¼Ÿ”
  
  “没问题，师父。”
  
  “好，你å�¯ä»¥åœ¨å¯ºé™¢ä¸¾è¡Œä¸€ä¸ªæ³•ä¼šï¼Œè¶…度所有因看过æ��怖å°�说å�—到惊å�“ã€�伤害的人，并代替你写过这ç§�å°�说的先人å¿�悔。然å�Žï¼Œè‡ªå·±å�¯ä»¥åœ¨å®¶é‡Œè¿žç»­å¿µå��部《楞严 ç»�》回å�‘法界众生，以此功德，消除先人的罪业。今å�Žå®¶æ—�内å†�ä¸�会有人患此病。å�¦å¤–，æ¯�天在佛å‰�供一æ�¯æ¸…水，让你弟弟æ¯�天诚心念《观世音è�©è�¨æ™®é—¨å“�》一é��， 念大悲咒三é��，然å�Žé¥®ç”¨ï¼Œä½ å¼Ÿå¼Ÿçš„的精神会é€�æ¸�好转。现在ä»�存于世间的少é‡�æ��怖å°�说，在佛力的加æŒ�下，将因æŸ�ç§�缘故而消失，病因断除了，疾病也就彻底根治 了。”
  
  田女士��敬敬记下了妙法�和尚指点的事项。
  
  现在田女士已�回去了。她弟弟病情有没有好转，我还�清楚。因为我所�到的故事里，还没有这方�的因果事例，所以我把它先写出�，以利�修们�阅。 �时也希望通过这段文字，使大众获得�迪。谨以此功德回�田�先生，�他早日康�。

   

   

• yamizi

  1 Jul 08, 10:32

  Hi Uncreated,

  Had read through the chinese text that you had posted, I don't see it inspiring in anyway. Rather it seems to cross the fine-line from pre-conditioning to predetermined.

  And there's no ISO certificate or whatsoever that gives guarantee that monks don't lie.

  Especially coming to Mahayana tradition where sometimes the characteristic of expedient means may be abused.

  Just to say upfront, I'm not saying whether this monk is lying or not, however I believe buddhists who know the proper Buddha-Dhamma would know how kamma actually works.

  But of course, some would actually enjoy such stories.

  Regards.

• jacqn

  1 Jul 08, 20:57

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  I do not believe, and do not think think this is supported by the scriptures, that your descendents have to suffer for your karma.

  Unless that guy is himself the 'old great grandfather' in his past life.

  p.s. what does this mean:
                                     The Little Wooden Hut
                                     Of
                                     Madhyamaka-Yogacara

  yah, personally, i agree that one has to suffer the effect passed down by generation. But its quite not believable that Mr B is the one suffer, why not the ones immediately after the ancestor who wrote the book? Maybe Mr B has not done enough good deeds to shield himself from the effect?