Originally posted by rokkie:Because non-duality of subject and object is not a stage, it is the nature of reality at all times.
But for most people we do not see the nature of reality as it is, so finally by reading sutras or meditation, we finally see the nature as it is, for us, the subject and object reunify, because it seperate for long time, because of our delusion, æ— æ˜Žï¼Œi think unification of subject and object, is just a "plain english" way to say non duality of subject and object,
Nonduality is not the goal but the path to achieve ultimate joyfullness and peacefulness, see reality as it is, even see reality as it is, is not the top concern, as like some pop star, they are being 包装，so he whom appear to us may not be who he is, but never mind , we just want to be entertained. I think the ultimate goal of practising buddhism is to maximize the joyfullness,minimize the suffering, just like 4圣谛，苦 ç� 集 é�“，is it? We pratise buddhism all because of suffering, and we want to minimize it by practising it.
When the person realises non-duality, it's not that subject and object reunify, it's that they see it has never been separated all along. All along the sense that subject and object are separate is false -- there never has been a subject and object! So what is there to unify? The false is seen to be false, that's all. Nondual reality presents itself in every moment effortlessly as an insight into what 'Always Is So'.
Non-duality is neither the goal nor the path, it is what Always Is. The insight into the 'Always Is' is necessary to end all sufferings.
It is the subject-object split, the separation that causes suffering as well the arising of desire. Without the insight that there is no-split, the mind continues to divide. Desire is an inner deficiency of the mind created to bridge the gap of separation. Aversion is the inner deficiency of the mind created that negatively reacts with or seeks to escape from a perceived object due to falsely projecting reality on 'external objects'.
When Anatta and Anicca is fully seen, it is seen there is no phenomena graspable nor is there a separate subject/self that can pursue or reject appearance, because there is in reality only transient appearances, with no experiencer/no one at its center that can escape or have a relation with appearances or be at the mercy of pain. Hence freedom from suffering is achieved, illusion of separation and split ended. The three poisons of desire, aversion, and ignorance is ended.
Originally posted by rokkie:already no self, is for someone who enlightened already, not for ordinary people, so i on behalf of some ordinary people, we still attached to self, say 'everything in buddhism we have to take middle way thinking, we stay away from self, but not extinguish self.' because your emphasize on nonduality of subject and object seems imply that we should stay away from self.
'Already no self' is not applicable only to enlightened persons -- it is applicable to everyone's experience. It is a fact of our experience at all times and can be experienced. It is a Dharma Seal. (法å�°) It's like saying everything is already impermanent! 诸行 is already æ— å¸¸, 诸法 is already æ— æˆ‘. In fact, what the Buddha taught is to observe in our direct experience the fact of no self in our every moment of experience. It is simply to re-discover a fact of existence that we have not understood. It is not about achieving a stage of egolessness, enlightenment is not a stage, it is only a 'rediscovery' of a fact that was all along so but we have never noticed due to our ignorance. The practice to re-discover this through observation of our moment-to-moment experience is called Vipassana or 'guan1'. Heart Sutra say,
观自在�� 行深般若波罗蜜多时
照�五蕴皆空 度一切苦厄.
If we mentally know 5 skhandas are empty, but we don't 照�, if we don't 观, then it is no use... we will not be 自在, we will still be attached to 5 skhandas. 观自在�� is not 观世音��, many people misunderstand. 观自在 means you must 修观, 观 then 照�五蕴皆, then 度一切苦厄, then is truly 观 - 自在. Everyone can and should become 观自在��.
So there is this saying,
修行�诀
一�四○年大愚法师给长女仪庄留诗一首
寂照照寂　切忌用力
æˆ�ä½›ä½œç¥–ã€€æ— ä»–ç§˜å¯†
Next, the fact of non-duality of subject and object has also nothing to stay away from self.
In the first place is there a 'self' to stay away from? Nothing to stay away! There is really only thoughts, sensations and feelings, there is no self -- no thinker, experiencer, doer, watcher, etc.
So there is only thoughts, sensations, feelings, and no separate self, and non-duality does not ask you to stay away from thoughts, sensations and feelings.
In the first place, there is no 'self' that can 'stay away' from thoughts, sensations and feelings.
Thoughts, sensations, and feelings will arise whenever there is condition for them to arise -- whether you want it to! There is no 'you' at the center who can escape from these appearances even if you wanted to. There is no escape because there is no self to escape, there is only what is arising according to conditions.
"There is only ever the present appearance of life, with no individual at its core who could ever escape even if they wanted to. Indeed, all attempts to escape merely serve to reinforce suffering and separation."
In fact the practice of Buddhism has nothing to do with escaping anything -- but rather become totally intimate, to feel and experience in clarity everything that is arising. This is the practice of Mindfulness. It's like 觉照，观照. It is bare, naked, non-conceptual awareness. Trying to escape, trying to push away thoughts and experience is counter-productive -- 切忌用力. Through total mindfulness of our bare experience, we can then begin to penetrate its nature: impermanence, suffering, no-self. It's nature is empty. Then insight can arise in that way, leading to liberation.
Originally posted by rokkie:
If i do not get u right, maybe because i always cannot understand this sentence "no-self means there is no self apart from or within every arising and ceasing". what is arising , what is ceasing?
Sight/scenery arise and cease as soon as it arises.
Sound also arise and cease as soon as it arises.
Smell also arise and cease as soon as it arises.
Taste also arise and cease as soon as it arises.
Feeling also arise and cease as soon as it arises.
Thought also arise and cease as soon as it arises.
That is all 'we' are, which is to say, there is no 'self'. But no 'self' does not mean nothing or non-existence -- sight, sound, smell, taste, feeling, thought arises, but they are completely impermanent and are not self. And there is no self separate/apart from those impermanent arising either. These impermanent appearances/arisings are all there is.
Originally posted by rokkie:
"In the moment of hearing, there is just sound, not a hearer. There is just thoughts, no thinker" here also seems also imply that, then your explanation afterward,
"It does not mean you don't exist (non-existence is one of the 4 extremes rejected by the Buddha, along with existence, both existence and non-existence, neither existence nor non-existence), or that you will cease to exist upon realisation (can't be done -- already no self, how to cease) -- it is only the illusion of the subject-object split that needs to be seen through."
Seems that illusion of subject-object split, so we seems have to take suject and object to be one, same thing, so if say apple is same thing to orange, so you mean apple is not a non existence, it's same thing to orange, so why need the two different name? As a result of the Nonduality of orange and apple, there seems no necessity to use the two name refering the same thing, if they are exactly the same thing. IT's confusing, that's go back to the topic, if you and the world are non dual, taking you as object and the world as subject, you become the world, then there is two world you disappear, or another way, the world become you, then there is two you, the world disappear. But the world is out there it cannot change, so probably you change to world, so you disappear,
Is that a proof of the non existence of self, when nonduality of subject and object is achieved
No, non-duality is not about apple being same as orange. The non-duality I'm talking about is strictly the non-duality of subject (self/perceiver) and object (perceived).
Apple and orange are different manifestation, due to different conditions.
Vision of apple as red and orange as orange in colour appear as our awareness.
We are able to distinguish that there are differences in colour -- one is red, one is orange. This is because Awareness is always manifesting in the Manifold according to specific/varying conditions, and never stays the same even for one moment, completely empty.
What is Non-Duality/No-Self saying?
There is no watcher/seer that is looking at the apple. When seeing a red apple, the 'seeing' and the 'colour' cannot be separated -- the seeing is the colour. Seeing and colour is in fact 'one thing', but due to the limitations of our inherently dualistic system of language, we speak as if they are two separate things. In actuality there is no seer apart from seen! We can't meaningfully speak of seeing apart from colour, or colour apart from seeing -- in the act of seeing colour, there is just colour, the manifestation. The closest we can describe verbally is, there is just Isness, Thusness, Suchness. This is the meaning of 真如本性.
In other words, all sensations/feelings/thoughts are aware where they are, and there is nothing/no separate self split off from that sensation, watching that sensation. The sensation/feeling/thought is self-aware, self-luminous, and also empty. That is itself Buddha-Nature. The sense of a center/agent/Self that is apart from that sensation, watching that sensation, is an illusion all along, that needs to be seen through by deep insight into Anatta (No-Self).
But this is just part of the story. This is talking about No-Self. The next aspect is Emptiness, and is even deeper. You cannot understand Emptiness properly without first understanding No-Self.
What does Emptiness mean?
When you are looking at a red apple, All you see is all there is -- Empty of inherent redness of the apple, or orange-ness of orange, apple and orange are empty of inherent existence. It's only because of your specific karmic conditioning that produce the vision/appearance of redness -- not everyone sees the same shapes and colours. Dogs are colour blind, and other realm beings can see something totally different. If you look from quantum perspective it's mostly (99.9999%) void. Hence all perceptions/consciousness is inseparable from conditioning -- and thus Empty of inherent/objective reality 'out there' apart from this moment's arising perception, complete as it is. There is no apple/orange out there with inherent shapes and colours and attributes. Nothing observed has a separate reality apart from the observer, and no observer has a separate reality apart from the observed. Because the observer and the observed cannot be separated, it's meaningless to even speak of an observer or (something) observed -- there is just a nondual reality of What Is, which is pure appearances/awareness.
Originally posted by rokkie:if you and the world are non dual, taking you as object and the world as subject, you become the world, then there is two world you disappear, or another way, the world become you, then there is two you, the world disappear. But the world is out there it cannot change, so probably you change to world, so you disappear,
Is that a proof of the non existence of self, when nonduality of subject and object is achieved
There is no 'me' and 'world', nor a me to become one with universe, there is only what Is, there is only 真如.
There is no 'world' out there -- just like there is no red apple out there (explained in previous post), but the Appearance of red apple manifest according to conditions.
There is no 'me' in here watching either. There is no watcher, only experiencing without an experiencer. In hearing the sound, there is just the sound, no hearer. And these sounds, scenery, thoughts, all appear according to conditions, they are inseparable from conditions... when causes and conditions meet, the sensations/feelings/thoughts 'can't help' but manifest as our awareness. Pristine Awareness is inseparable from conditions.
There is only Appearances of the Manifold, appearing as red flower, appearing as orange, as words appearing on screen, all that is As It Is, all that is self-luminous and empty Awareness, Buddha-Nature.
If you think that there are objects and the world exist in a 'really-out-there' kind of way, you can read the article The `No-Self' Nature of People and Things
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You have an altruistic view and tried to link no-self with morality.
However you have to understand that in Buddhism, No-Self is not related to morality, non-attachment to self, non-egotism, selflessness, or any of such notions. All these are important, but are not the teaching of No-Self in Buddhism, and these practices do not lead to liberation or enlightenment, though they can build up good karma and thus good rebirths.
So we should not misunderstand that No-Self is good conduct -- it is not a conduct, it is the nature of reality at all times. And it is only the arising of insight into the ever-present nature of reality that liberates.
In Buddhism, No-Self is one of the 三法� (Three Dharma Seals/Three Characteristics of Existence).
The implication that No-Self is a Seal of Reality means that at all times, all phenomena and at all times our experience exhibits the characteristic of No-Self.
This means that all along, there never was a self, even if you are un-enlightened, or if you are selfish, or egotistic, etc, there is still no self. Not a moment is there actually a 'separate self'...
Ordinary unenlightened beings think that there is a fixed self, an observer. But in actuality this is not the case. Our experience is momentary and does not constituted a fixed and inherent self or soul.
As Thusness wrote before:
Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
Furthermore, there is no separate agent/self/observer/doer apart from moment to moment manifestation. That means in Hearing, there is just Sound, just the Tonggg -- no Hearer or Bell ringing.
All these are not just a concept. If we can observe our experience at all moments we can realise/discover the fact of no-self in all our every moment experience, as a seal of reality, not to be mistaken as an altruistic state of egolessness.
my bad, in fact what i mean is buddhism is a good thing, i misuse "conduct",
san fayin, è¯¸æ³•æ— æˆ‘,è¯¸è¡Œæ— å¸¸, 涅槃寂é�™. because there are two different wuwo, one is äººæ— æˆ‘, one is æ³•æ— æˆ‘, there first è¯¸æ³•æ— æˆ‘, emphasize on æ³•æ— æˆ‘