Don't place any teachers above scrutiny
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Often, it is possible that an individual is seeking hero or idol worship, sense of wanting to be accepted, searching for an identity or whatever, where common sense does not prevail? The sincerity of one's quest open one's vulnerability! Gurus are worshipped like popstars! There so much seeking for sense of meaning of life,or feeling of emptiness we want filled, that some of us started this quest but do not really know what we really want until we've actually found it!
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
sorry don't quite understand... if we keep mute, wouldn't others be in harm's way...?
Would it be better to feedback to the Sangha community and let them decide the best course of action...?
miss out this?但是有一个例外，这个人ä¸�ä½†ç ´æˆ’ï¼Œè¿˜ç ´è§�，那这个è�©è�¨è¦�å‡»é¼“è€Œæ”»ä¹‹äº†ã€‚å› ä¸ºä»–ä¸�是ç§�下行为有问题而已，他宣
说的法是错误的，开始在误导众生，一盲引众盲，相牵入ç�«å�‘ã€‚ä»–è¯´ï¼Œä¸–é—´ä¸Šæ²¡æœ‰å› æžœï¼Œä»–è¯´æ²¡æœ‰æž�ä¹�世界的å˜åœ¨ï¼Œå¤§ä¹˜ä½›æ³•é�žä½›è¯´ã€‚这个时候他所释放出æ�¥çš„å·²ç»�ä¸�是对众生产生引导的力é‡�，那这个就跟这æ�¡æˆ’ä¸�ä¸€æ ·äº†ã€‚æ‰€ä»¥æˆ‘ä»¬å¿…é¡»åŽ˜æ¸…ç ´æˆ’è·Ÿç ´è§�的差别。
i think for general buddhist follower like u and me, a few breaking of precepts is fine, as nobody is perfect. not that it's harming others. like if u break precept, it doesn't harm me.
in the thread, from Ven Jing Jie, precept is not about those who know the law and breaks it, double the punishment. but precept does have its power in slowly lead them to enlightenment. (however Extreme view is a bit different from breaking precept. )
what old MCK suggest is not to belittle your buddhist "peers" in public, but rather talk to them nicely in Private. if they listen in the first time, good! if not, do it another time or two. if still they do not listen, Forget it. we don't want to become enermy in the future. master to master can also communicated privately rather than in public.
but if it involve stubborn Extreme view that the "master" is teaching others, then i think HHDL is right to make known to public, as this is harming other people.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
in the thread, from Ven Jing Jie, precept is not about those who know the law and breaks it, double the punishment. but precept does have its power in slowly lead them to enlightenment.for Buddhist precepts. the common misunderstanding is if one know the law and break them, commit even more serious offense. 知法犯法 ç½ªåŠ ä¸€ç‰. No. the precepts work the other way round. offen a remorse is felt, after the offense is commited, and when one seek forgiveness, the karma is reduce or even cleared. it is as if ur car is crashing into the wall, but u press the brake to reduce the impact. ordinally person without the precepts only crash into the wall without braking.
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Originally posted by Weychin:
The difference I,ve noticed between the Chinese and Tibetan monks, is that most chinese monks show reserve, and a lot tibetan monks has a child like quality. The body language may interpreted as such, but then, only you can make your assessment with more in depth observations!I have spoken to both. Tibetan monks are practising their own tibetan buddhism. The one I spoke to does not understand or know the buddhist words I told him. These few tibetan monks no doubt are nice.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Of course, it is very bad to criticize your guru in normal circumstances. But if the "Guru" is sexually abusing people etc, what do you do? If you need to criticize him *for the right motivation: to protect others*, I say do it. As stated,
"Guru" is a role, not a person. The role as certain obligations, just as the role "student" has certain obligations. The sooner people sort this out, the better.Of course, this does not give us license to criticize the "guru"'s every perceived mistake etc. Most of the time, for all those minor stuff, we are better to mind our own business. But every now and then, if some so called "guru" comes to bring great harm to others, then something must be done to stop the harm from continuing unchecked.
I understand your POV, however samayas are not flexible based on situational needs. If a student criticises, then he / she breaks his samaya and this entails its consequences... Full stop
This is not like the Bodhisattva vehicle where good intention overrides everything. Guru is not just a role. Once a person receives a Guru's transmission, he is forever linked to this teacher and transmission. This is not just a role that can be put on and removed.
What to do in a difficult situation like this? In life, there are many situations that put you between a rock and a hard place. I have no perfect advice on this. However, note that breaking samaya can derail you for many lives... and the consequences are farreaching
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Originally posted by Weychin:
Often, it is possible that an individual is seeking hero or idol worship, sense of wanting to be accepted, searching for an identity or whatever, where common sense does not prevail?
The sincerity of one’s quest open one’s vulnerability!
Gurus are worshipped like popstars! There so much seeking for sense of meaning of life,or feeling of emptiness we want filled, that some of us started this quest but do not really know what we really want until we’ve actually found it!yes, many people are Guru - chasing for the wrong reasons... this can lead very easily to the sexual abuses and other problems...
therefore it is important to be clear about our own motivations as well.
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actually, i should add that my own convictions are largely derived from my own experiences, which i have had some quite intense ones in the past.
in the dharma, it is not advisable to make decisions based on usual human way of thinking or judgement, rather in the long run, it is advisable to abide by what is stated in the teachings. Always, you will find that these wisdoms in the teachings will always prevail in the end.
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Originally posted by Dharmadhatu:
I understand your POV, however samayas are not flexible based on situational needs. If a student criticises, then he / she breaks his samaya and this entails its consequences... Full stop
This is not like the Bodhisattva vehicle where good intention overrides everything. Guru is not just a role. Once a person receives a Guru's transmission, he is forever linked to this teacher and transmission. This is not just a role that can be put on and removed.
What to do in a difficult situation like this? In life, there are many situations that put you between a rock and a hard place. I have no perfect advice on this. However, note that breaking samaya can derail you for many lives... and the consequences are farreaching
If a "guru" continues abusing students and one is prevented by fear to do anything about it or even leave the teacher, then I think it is no different from a cult worship. This is the kind of "corrupted understanding of samaya" that Namdrol warned about. This is not Buddhism as I know it. Anyway the Dalai Lama is right to encourage people to speak out when necessary and even write to the press.
As Namdrol pointed out:
On whether you should stay with a teacher who has acted in a way that is not in accord with Dharma, simply examine page 51 of Buddhist Ethics where it clearly says that one should immediately sever one's relationship with such a person. On whether it is necessarily a breakage of samaya to criticize one's guru, examine the six criteria Kongtrul lists for samaya breakage to exist when criticizing one's guru, page 257. It depends primarily on one's motives.
No one is ever going to feel good about it, but sometimes, for the protection of others, it is necessary. -
btw to call samaya a social contract is quite apt. firstly samaya is sanskrit for agreement or contract. secondly samaya is two ways: both student and guru has obligation.
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There's a Buddhist saying "�法��人" (follow the Dharma and not the teacher)。I'm not sure whether this phrase was originated from Buddha but my Dharma friend told me that Buddha knew that this will happen, that's why Buddha said "�法��人" (follow the Dharma and not the teacher)。
I believe respect is to be earned not by enforcement. I agree with AEN that it is necessary to speak out for the sake of others and Buddhism. I ever argued with a monk from China but I stopped short. Feel like telling him not to bring in all the bad practices from China which are against the Dharma but I did not as I understand that I have to respect the robe that he's wearing.
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Dawn...u r an upright lady with a conscientious heart and sensitivity towards others...no matter how wrong they are...
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Originally posted by Fcukpap:
Dawn...u r an upright lady with a conscientious heart and sensitivity towards others...no matter how wrong they are...
Thanks to Buddha's teachings.
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its not just the teachings...but also your own diligence and awakenings...
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..and the consequences are farreaching
indeed farreaching consequences, me (and MCK) are more on the side of keeping the faith of your teacher. there was once, people were criticing MCK for using a commentry book(Infinity Life Sutra) of Xia Lian. MCK listen to his teacher that the book is good. now the book is getting recognition. if MCK disobey his teacher, he will be cap with 背师��.
背师�� say it all, disobey your teacher is as good as rebelling the way.
not many understood or saw the deeper concern of obeying the teacher. MCK did. if u notice, it's shown in our educational system. any little mistreating of the child, they complain to parent. like this, how can teachers keep up a good standard.
this is similar to Buddhism. obeying the teacher top much higher than criticing the teacher. why so? the deeper concern is that criticing end the entire system of Buddhism or any educational system! As people looses faith in the teaching. Slowly it will lead to dharma ending. faith is very important. 信為�元功德�
read: Faith in Mahayana Buddhism
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/185175i mean not getting the view right is not as serious as not having faith. getting right view is not easy too. you still can get it right in the future if one has faith. but if no faith, then it's even hard to get people believe again in the future.
consider comparing a bad teacher teaching a group of student, with student no longer interested in learning. which weight more? student no longer interested in learning! the teaching become no use at all!
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
indeed farreaching consequences, me (and MCK) are more on the side of keeping the faith of your teacher. there was once, people were criticing MCK for using a commentry book(Infinity Life Sutra) of Xia Lian. MCK listen to his teacher that the book is good. now the book is getting recognition. if MCK disobey his teacher, he will be cap with 背师��.
背师�� say it all, disobey your teacher is as good as rebelling the way.
not many understood or saw the deeper concern of obeying the teacher. MCK did. if u notice, it's shown in our educational system. any little mistreating of the child, they complain to parent. like this, how can teachers keep up a good standard.
this is similar to Buddhism. obeying the teacher top much higher than criticing the teacher. why so? the deeper concern is that criticing end the entire system of Buddhism or any educational system! As people looses faith in the teaching. Slowly it will lead to dharma ending. faith is very important. 信為�元功德�
read: Faith in Mahayana Buddhism
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/185175i mean not getting the view right is not as serious as not having faith. getting right view is not easy too. you still can get it right in the future if one has faith. but if no faith, then it's even hard to get people believe again in the future.
consider comparing a bad teacher teaching a group of student, with student no longer interested in learning. which weight more? student no longer interested in learning! the teaching become no use at all!
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What I'm going to say happens in reality. The bad students will stay but the good students who really wish to practice the true Dharma lose faith in temples. I told them that if this temple is not suitable for you, just go to another temple as there are many good temples around. However, they said they have no more faith in temples, many choose to practice at home. This is a sign of Dharma ending age which Buddha said the maras will chase the true Buddhists away from the temples. They chase the true Buddhists away by playing politics in the temple.
A good teacher like Ven. Hui Lu 慧律法师will not allow playing politics in his temple, he did say that he chased a troublemaker away for the sake of everyone. Whereas a bad teacher will condone their actions and turn a blind eye as they are the big donors or afraid to offend these people. Instead of reprimanding these people, the bad teacher praise them.
There's a popular Venerable who said that he had never and will never encourage Buddhists to donate money to build temples as once they are built, they will be occupied by maras. He said he will only encourage Buddhists to print Dharma books and other charity deeds. However, I feel that there are still many good practice temples around so I still feel that it is good to donate for building temples.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
What I'm going to say happens in reality. The bad students will stay but the good students who really wish to practice the true Dharma lose faith in temples. I told them that if this temple is not suitable for you, just go to another temple as there are many good temples around. However, they said they have no more faith in temples, many choose to practice at home. This is a sign of Dharma ending age which Buddha said the maras will chase the true Buddhists away from the temples. They chase the true Buddhists away by playing politics in the temple.
i mean the good students didn't loose faith in the teaching, only that particular temple. and neither did the 'bad' student loose faith, although they practice wrongly and go to lower realms or something. they come out still can be guided back on track. but what i am pointing is new people from outside see the bad commotion within buddhist community will loose faith in buddhism. and take even longer time for them to learn the way per se.anyway yea i agree, it's the working of "mara" to disrupt buddhism from the inside. the whole image of buddhism is already been effected. people are confuse with who to follow.
i see the topic "Don't place any teachers above scrutiny". perhaps this is applicable in dharma ending age. as people had already "spoiled the market." if not the basic is still have utmost respect to one's teacher. and i think why it's in the vajrayana do have it's reason. devotion does help one learn faster. and it's a 'risk' one have to take.
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
i mean the good students didn't loose faith in the teaching, only that particular temple. and neither did the 'bad' student loose faith, although they practice wrongly and go to lower realms or something. they come out still can be guided back on track. but what i am pointing is new people from outside see the bad commotion within buddhist community will loose faith in buddhism. and take even longer time for them to learn the way per se.anyway yea i agree, it's the working of "mara" to disrupt buddhism from the inside. the whole image of buddhism is already been effected. people are confuse with who to follow.
i see the topic "Don't place any teachers above scrutiny". perhaps this is applicable in dharma ending age. as people had already "spoiled the market." if not the basic is still have utmost respect to one's teacher.
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i see the topic "Don't place any teachers above scrutiny". perhaps this is applicable in dharma ending age. as people had already "spoiled the market." if not the basic is still have utmost respect to one's teacher.
Yes, you are correct. If we read the sutras, all the sutras said we must repsect one's teacher. One's teacher was placed in utmost important position and must have utmost respect to one's teacher. When one is taking the 8 precepts, the sutra asked whether did we take good care of our teacher when he was unwell. We have to answer yes or no before taking the 8 precepts. From here, we can tell that in the olden days, before the dharma ending age, teachers were of great importance.
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teacher is of great importance even today, but devotion and faith should be earned, blind devotion is no good. i.e. they must be a good teacher who is highly qualified in many ways, well learned and well trained in precepts, samadhi and wisdom, in such a way that it naturally inspires faith and devotion even without the teacher needing to demand it from the student.
most teachers are ok (in the sense that their character is ok, does not abuse students etc, however whether they are greatly enlightened or their penetration of dharma is deep or complete is a different question as deeply enlightened teachers are rare these days), but there are always rotten apples, the black sheep
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blind devotion is like the blind leading the blind, or a wolf leading a pack of sheep.
you need to be very clear yourself the character and qualities of the teacher who is leading you
blind faith and devotion is useless and even harmful (imagine the disasterous consequence of a sheep led by a wolf). i recommend, as buddha had recommend, a reasonable and clear sighted faith
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regarding on different kind of faith, found an old topic from 2007:
http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/273281
for pureland (especially non-or lower educated)(and or guru devoting technique of tibetan buddhism which normally involve young and innocent kid)(most or all good masters start from very young.)(they would not know who to follow. their parent or lama send them to follow a good teacher.) , they do just start with "good" faith. i.e.
"When you buy a loaf of bread, you expect it does not contain poison, that is based on good faith."
Kalama got kalama method. higher educated got higher educated method. lower educated got lower educated method. non educated got non educated method. just different med for different illness. cannot fix the kalama method on the non educated. won't work. to me the lowest and innocent is the highest and fastest, though risky method, straight away rid ignorance/doubt and arrogance. while the clever one think too much wandering thoughts. �明�被�明误. blind by own arrogance.
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yes as long as the faith is being invested for the right thing, with the right person guiding, i.e. good faith, faith will be a powerful strength that propels us on the path to enlightenment. Good faith is faith that is not blind (in the case of wolf leading sheep) but a faith that is rightly directed with the right teacher, right teaching, right goal, and so on.
without a foundation of faith, it is difficult to have progress
even those of great capacity like thusness, who was able to awaken without being personally guided by a teacher, attributed his progress to his faith in buddha. if he did not take the buddha's teaching seriously, there is no way he could have attained great realization. without taking buddha's teachings on anatta, emptiness and dependent origination seriously, he would have been stuck with the non-buddhist level of enlightenment.
only a pratyekabuddha or buddha is able to awaken completely without an existing buddha's teachings. and such beings are nonexistent until the end of the current buddha's dispensation
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i was just telling someone the sutta i often quote:
and here is the relevant part to this topic:
"14. "Bhikkhus, when a Tathagata, accomplished and fully enlightened, claims to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging, he completely describes the full understanding of all kinds of clinging: he describes the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self.[9]
15. "Bhikkhus, in such a Dhamma and Discipline as that it is plain that confidence in the Teacher is rightly directed, that confidence in the Dhamma is rightly directed, that fulfillment of the precepts is rightly directed, and that the affection among companions in the Dhamma is rightly directed. Why is that? Because that is how it is when the Dhamma and Discipline is well proclaimed and well expounded, emancipating, conducive to peace, expounded by one who is fully enlightened.
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Anyway my msg to her was this: Yes, X teacher has not realized anatta. I have seen his writings before, they are not bad on Awareness teachings but only point to the I AMness and then progressing into One Mind. I rarely see experiential realization of anatta and emptiness being described nowadays... Not nonexistent but quite rare. Most are talking about I AM, one mind, etc. This is probably a reason why the Buddha listed "overcoming doctrine of Self" as the main/crucial difference separating his teaching and those of other teachers (would imply that clarity of view and realization about this is truly rare): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.011.ntbb.html I have to thank Thusness, just earlier today I told him that if I haven't known him, my understanding and experience would probably have peaked at the I AMness insight (there are others who told him the same thing) since the others around me I know personally have only gotten as far as that. Many people I personally know are stuck there for decades, many are stuck for their whole life. I am sharing what I know with whoever I have the condition to speak to... but it is not very easy for them to understand and see what I am saying (they may "agree" but not truly understand it), as the truth is often subtle and profound and many have their own experience and understanding, it is hard to put aside their views and investigate/challenge everything they thought they knew.
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re-qoute from Ven Jing Jie again regarding the 'Gem' of Sangha. Ven Hai Tao also i heard he said before:
所以在律上说，一个è�©è�¨åƒ§å®�，å�³ä½¿ä»–犯了错，就åƒ�什么呢？è¬å¦‚æ»å°¸ï¼ŒçŠ¹èƒ½åº¦äººã€‚这个人身体æ»æŽ‰äº†ï¼Œä»–æ»æŽ‰æ˜¯ä»–çš„å› æžœå˜›ï¼�但是我们抱ç�€æ»å°¸ï¼Œæˆ‘们还是å�¯ä»¥åˆ°å½¼å²¸å˜›ï¼�è¬å¦‚æ»å°¸ï¼ŒçŠ¹èƒ½åº¦äººã€‚就是说，这个è�©è�¨æœ‰è¿‡å¤±ï¼Œæˆ‘ä¸�èƒ½å®£è¯´ï¼Œå› ä¸ºä»–è®²çš„æ³•è¿˜æ˜¯æ£æ³•ï¼Œå¾ˆå¤šå¼Ÿå�è·Ÿä»–å¦ä¹ ，还是å�¯ä»¥æ ½åŸ¹å–„æ ¹ï¼Œè¿˜æ˜¯äº§ç”Ÿå¢žä¸Šï¼Œè¿™ä¸ªæ»å°¸è¿˜æ˜¯å�‘挥了把这个人从æ¤å²¸åº¦åˆ°å½¼å²¸çš„效果，虽然他自己牺牲掉了。所以å�³ä¾¿ä»–的身å�£æ„�有过失，è�©è�¨ä¸ºäº†æŠ¤æŒ�æ£æ³•çš„缘故，ä¸�应该æ�¥å®£è¯´ã€‚
considering the teacher teaches good dharma(not extreme view) to student but however commited some wrong deeds. a log/dead body in a sea, even though is blind itself, one can still use it to go to the other shore.
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Originally posted by winsomeea:
I have spoken to both. Tibetan monks are practising their own tibetan buddhism. The one I spoke to does not understand or know the buddhist words I told him. These few tibetan monks no doubt are nice.
I think there is a list of controversial sects listed in this forum, maybe you can check whether the temple you visited is one of them!