Discrimination Against Homosexuality
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i post this b4...n i decide to post it again.....Originally posted by the Bear:you guys don't get it do you?
it is a sin to me.. does it make it a sin to a person who does not share my faith?
read the 1st commandment... does it mean i must discriminate everyone who is a Taoist, Hindu, Animist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Agnostic, Atheist... the list goes on....
i have friends who are a lot of these.. do i tell them that i will not help them if they are in trouble because i do not share their faith?
THAT is what you are advocating...
this arguement will b looping ....i shall end it here.....
Homosexuality:
The Christian Perspective
by
Lehman Strauss, Litt.D., F.R.G.S. -
did the first commandment says that? not to help others in need?Originally posted by the Bear:you guys don't get it do you?
it is a sin to me.. does it make it a sin to a person who does not share my faith?
read the 1st commandment... does it mean i must discriminate everyone who is a Taoist, Hindu, Animist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Agnostic, Atheist... the list goes on....
i have friends who are a lot of these.. do i tell them that i will not help them if they are in trouble because i do not share their faith?
THAT is what you are advocating...
the first commandment says that you cannot have any other gods before me. but we are asked to be the salt and light of the world. tts 2 different issues.
what i am advocating, is that encouraging them to continue to be like this isn't the answer, instead, while accepting them, and letting them know that this isn't God's work, to hv relationships between man and man, exchanging what is good for something bad.
i'm not asking for a total ku klux clan wipeout. but i am putting a point across that first making them feel like they are right, and that what the bible says is wrong, is the first step to decline morality. soon, the clean clear line of right and wrong relationships will simply be blurer and blurer. till it doesn't even matter anymore. this is not what we want, i don't think thats what you want, yet, this will happen as phrophesied.
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Originally posted by Icefalcon:
of course the bible cannot be taken out of context. where u just simply grab a sentence and make a point. but i'd like to quote this whole paragraph
I do not believe that the bible can be taken literally, word for word. Therefore, its intepretation is up to the reader. As nobody thinks the same way, whenever anyone quotes the bible to me, I listen, but I do not comment.
I do not believe homosexuality itself is wrong. It, too is a kind of love, and caring for others.
It is hard to agree on what sin is, so I shall not comment on that. However, when I think about it carefully, I feel that it is wrong to [b]deliberately harm yourself or others. (Note that I'm not saying everything else is right.) Now, I do not believe homosexuals are harmful, or will do anything wrong to me. They can't even have children, therefore, they will always be in the minority. Therefore, they do not bother me, and I do not bother them, or go out of my way to bother them.
Why do I defend them? Well, I'm not too sure myself. I'm straight, in case anyone's wondering.
Maybe I just feel that it's wrong to bother people who have done nothing wrong to us, except that they're different.
I have heard that homosexuals "undermine society's moral fabric". Well, I feel that there is nothing to undermine.
All immorality springs from ourselves. Nobody can make you change your mind about anything, as long as you are strong enough not to give in to peer pressure. No one can make me gay, because I prefer ladies, and no one can make me smoke or take drugs because I know that they will harm me and people around me. In fact, smokers cause more harm to people around them than gays, I don't hear anyone reacting the same way to smokers.
However, all this is my own, personal views, which I have come to, after careful thought, and thinking things out. I have no bible to quote from, but I hope I have presented my views in a logical, reasonable fashion.
I conclude by saying that homosexuals should be left alone. They do not harm the society.[/b]
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
i'm not taking out of context cause this whole paragraph shows us how my God sees it, remembering that He hates sin, not the sinner, and longs to set things right.
smoking is wrong, i do not know about other churches, but my pastor preaches against smoking as well, not just about this impending issue.
like i said, ignoring them, merely just accepting them isn't the complete answer. in every one of us, there is a conscience given by God, we already know what is right and wrong, but we still choose to do wrong, due to our sinful nature of course, but use that conscience to think, if your child is gay, would u feel happy about it? ignore your child? or show your child, whom you love, what is wrong? this is how God sees them. as well as us, since we are all sinners. -
Originally posted by Icefalcon:
of course the bible cannot be taken out of context. where u just simply grab a sentence and make a point. but i'd like to quote this whole paragraph
I do not believe that the bible can be taken literally, word for word. Therefore, its intepretation is up to the reader. As nobody thinks the same way, whenever anyone quotes the bible to me, I listen, but I do not comment.
I do not believe homosexuality itself is wrong. It, too is a kind of love, and caring for others.
It is hard to agree on what sin is, so I shall not comment on that. However, when I think about it carefully, I feel that it is wrong to [b]deliberately harm yourself or others. (Note that I'm not saying everything else is right.) Now, I do not believe homosexuals are harmful, or will do anything wrong to me. They can't even have children, therefore, they will always be in the minority. Therefore, they do not bother me, and I do not bother them, or go out of my way to bother them.
Why do I defend them? Well, I'm not too sure myself. I'm straight, in case anyone's wondering. Maybe I just feel that it's wrong to bother people who have done nothing wrong to us, except that they're different.
I have heard that homosexuals "undermine society's moral fabric". Well, I feel that there is nothing to undermine.
All immorality springs from ourselves. Nobody can make you change your mind about anything, as long as you are strong enough not to give in to peer pressure. No one can make me gay, because I prefer ladies, and no one can make me smoke or take drugs because I know that they will harm me and people around me. In fact, smokers cause more harm to people around them than gays, I don't hear anyone reacting the same way to smokers.
However, all this is my own, personal views, which I have come to, after careful thought, and thinking things out. I have no bible to quote from, but I hope I have presented my views in a logical, reasonable fashion.
I conclude by saying that homosexuals should be left alone. They do not harm the society.[/b]
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
you say everyone interprets the bible differently, you tell me what does this whole chapter says, according to your interpretation?
i'm not taking out of context cause this whole paragraph shows us how my God sees it, remembering that He hates sin, not the sinner, and longs to set things right.
smoking is wrong, i do not know about other churches, but my pastor preaches against smoking as well, not just about this impending issue.
like i said, ignoring them, merely just accepting them isn't the complete answer. in every one of us, there is a conscience given by God, we already know what is right and wrong, but we still choose to do wrong, due to our sinful nature of course, but use that conscience to think, if your child is gay, would u feel happy about it? ignore your child? or show your child, whom you love, what is wrong? this is how God sees them. as well as us, since we are all sinners.
and in a way, i agree, acceptence is important. but it cannot be confused and lead them to believe they are alright.
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Originally posted by Icefalcon:
of course the bible cannot be taken out of context. where u just simply grab a sentence and make a point. but i'd like to quote this whole paragraph
I do not believe that the bible can be taken literally, word for word. Therefore, its intepretation is up to the reader. As nobody thinks the same way, whenever anyone quotes the bible to me, I listen, but I do not comment.
I do not believe homosexuality itself is wrong. It, too is a kind of love, and caring for others.
It is hard to agree on what sin is, so I shall not comment on that. However, when I think about it carefully, I feel that it is wrong to [b]deliberately harm yourself or others. (Note that I'm not saying everything else is right.) Now, I do not believe homosexuals are harmful, or will do anything wrong to me. They can't even have children, therefore, they will always be in the minority. Therefore, they do not bother me, and I do not bother them, or go out of my way to bother them.
Why do I defend them? Well, I'm not too sure myself. I'm straight, in case anyone's wondering. Maybe I just feel that it's wrong to bother people who have done nothing wrong to us, except that they're different.
I have heard that homosexuals "undermine society's moral fabric". Well, I feel that there is nothing to undermine.
All immorality springs from ourselves. Nobody can make you change your mind about anything, as long as you are strong enough not to give in to peer pressure. No one can make me gay, because I prefer ladies, and no one can make me smoke or take drugs because I know that they will harm me and people around me. In fact, smokers cause more harm to people around them than gays, I don't hear anyone reacting the same way to smokers.
However, all this is my own, personal views, which I have come to, after careful thought, and thinking things out. I have no bible to quote from, but I hope I have presented my views in a logical, reasonable fashion.
I conclude by saying that homosexuals should be left alone. They do not harm the society.[/b]
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
you say everyone interprets the bible differently, you tell me what does this whole chapter says, according to your interpretation?
i'm not taking out of context cause this whole paragraph shows us how God sees it, remembering that He hates sin, not the sinner, and longs to set things right.
smoking is wrong, i do not know about other churches, but my pastor preaches against smoking as well, not just about this impending issue.
like i said, ignoring them, merely just accepting them isn't the complete answer. in every one of us, there is a conscience given by God, we already know what is right and wrong, but we still choose to do wrong, due to our sinful nature of course, but use that conscience to think, if your child is gay, would u feel happy about it? ignore your child? or show your child, whom you love, what is wrong? this is how God sees them. as well as us, since we are all sinners.
and in a way, i agree, acceptence is important. but it cannot be confused and lead them to believe they are alright.
what is sin? sin is simply anything that falls short from God's perfectness. from a small lie, to rape and murder, is sin. even anger, hatred and unforgiveness is murder. -
sorry abt the multipostings, lagged.
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simple, it goes something like this:
The MOST vocal Homophobes are closet homosexuals who are unable to come to terms with their own sexuality.
The largest concentration of gays are found in the Catholic church as Priests.
Therefore, it would only make sense that most Catholics are homophobes. -
Christians gather in Churches to pray likewise. Do we complain? no.Originally posted by chguy:bear you dont need to read gay's manifesto. Its action is already big enuf for all of you to notice. It's happening in Europe, US, Canada, Australia.
I know about a gays group gathering in Holland V. to worship satanic symbols so that gays lifestyle is promoted in SG. They are there to chant whatever charm to the SG minister to open up gay lifestyle. -
they're not your kidsOriginally posted by dumbdumb!:i'd like to use this anology, say u, if u hv kids, saw yr kid fall down and cut his knee, and it becomes infected, would u just simply say "sayang, sayang, its ok, i still love you, u're accepted" or would u say that sentence, AND also clean up his wound? the process of cleaning the wound will hurt, those who hv scraped knees will know, but u know its for the child's own good. of course christians would find it hard to be tactful and firm about their faith together. but basically this anology is how we see it. -
thats why i said "yr kids". not some other kids that isn't yr flesh and blood. some humane actions that even you should be able to comprehend
and notice i meant that ur kid is already alive, not aborted. -
hmm i agree to a certain extent, let me give u my theory. no offence to anyone of course. during the course of time, before the reformation, thus the existance of protestants, when the bible was brought into rome, it appeared that the people have strayed again, mixing the roman's believes with christianity, thus human wisdom( not God's wisdom) began to make their own laws, like for example, that those who wants to serve God must not marry and stuff like that. thus many priests do not marry. the people who defend this anti marrage thing, is quoted from paul, who said thisOriginally posted by AzRaeL:simple, it goes something like this:
The MOST vocal Homophobes are closet homosexuals who are unable to come to terms with their own sexuality.
The largest concentration of gays are found in the Catholic church as Priests.
Therefore, it would only make sense that most Catholics are homophobes.
1 Corinthians 7
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband
>> http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+7&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on please read this for further context
when u look at this, it would appear that paul encouraged the people not to marry, but if u look carefully, he did say that if those who hv to marry, go ahead, it doesn't mean u don't love God when u marry, tt is ridiculous isn't it?
to go without marraige is a gift from God, but not everyone is given that gift. those who try to do so, without this gift, will end up doing more wrong things, like the corinthians in this case, tts why paul said its better for them to marry. He wished that the people don't have to, so they can concentrate on God better, but u noticed he said he wished. it is not a command from God. thats cuz God's plan is for the people to be fruitful and multiply ( to cheeky people -- it means marry hv children, not happily simpily bang bang bang.)
back to the priest who hv sexual misconducts, its cuz they were in a sense forced to not to marry, and they burned with passion and thus led to do wrong things. but whose fault was that? not God, not paul, but the misinterpretation of the gospel, taking out of context and self righteousness. not sure if i explained clearly enuff, PM me if u dun understand. Peace out mofos.
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bear, forgot to explain smth. it doesn't matter how we interpret sin, sin ultimately is interpreted by God. and to Him its a sin, so the same judgement falls on them as it was given to sodom. all the more to warn them rite? they may not accept it, but we are asked to be the ones who stand in the gap. be the salt and light. they may not tink its wrong doesn't mean it isn't wrong, a child may tink jumping out of a window 10 floors down isn't going to hurt him, but the fact is that he will be hurt, if not killed.Originally posted by the Bear:you guys don't get it do you?
it is a sin to me.. does it make it a sin to a person who does not share my faith?
read the 1st commandment... does it mean i must discriminate everyone who is a Taoist, Hindu, Animist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Agnostic, Atheist... the list goes on....
i have friends who are a lot of these.. do i tell them that i will not help them if they are in trouble because i do not share their faith?
THAT is what you are advocating... -
do we take away their right to make decisions?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:bear, forgot to explain smth. it doesn't matter how we interpret sin, sin ultimately is interpreted by God. and to Him its a sin, so the same judgement falls on them as it was given to sodom. all the more to warn them rite? they may not accept it, but we are asked to be the ones who stand in the gap. be the salt and light. they may not tink its wrong doesn't mean it isn't wrong, a child may tink jumping out of a window 10 floors down isn't going to hurt him, but the fact is that he will be hurt, if not killed.
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should we deprive them from knowing they chose somethign wrong?Originally posted by the Bear:do we take away their right to make decisions?
no one forces them to change, like no one forces anyone to receive salvation.
i'm here to explain the stand on why christianity is against homosexuality cause blim seemed to be antagonistic, so i hoped i provided enough answers.
but i find that its impt that they be given a choice first. remember, we were enslaved to sin, we didn't hv a choice not to sin, its only when Jesus came to save us, then we had a choice. same with these people. they didn't know that they could choose not to become like that. ask those ex-gays who went delieverence and are now leading normal lives, married with kids living a life of freedom. -
and so the bible said the name of God is tarnished among the gentiles becuz of wat the believers do..Originally posted by AzRaeL:simple, it goes something like this:
The MOST vocal Homophobes are closet homosexuals who are unable to come to terms with their own sexuality.
The largest concentration of gays are found in the Catholic church as Priests.
Therefore, it would only make sense that most Catholics are homophobes. -
Islamic and Judiac law say that you cannot eat pork.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:should we deprive them from knowing they chose somethign wrong?
no one forces them to change, like no one forces anyone to receive salvation.
i'm here to explain the stand on why christianity is against homosexuality cause blim seemed to be antagonistic, so i hoped i provided enough answers.
but i find that its impt that they be given a choice first. remember, we were enslaved to sin, we didn't hv a choice not to sin, its only when Jesus came to save us, then we had a choice. same with these people. they didn't know that they could choose not to become like that. ask those ex-gays who went delieverence and are now leading normal lives, married with kids living a life of freedom.
But do you eat it? yeah cuz you're not Jewish or Muslim.
Likewise, do not tell others how they might live their lives.
ExGay? nah..they're just conforming to make you happy.
Freedom? that's questionable.
Freedom to live their lives as you want to. -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Do not tell Others how to live their lives.
hmm i agree to a certain extent, let me give u my theory. no offence to anyone of course. during the course of time, before the reformation, thus the existance of protestants, when the bible was brought into rome, it appeared that the people have strayed again, mixing the roman's believes with christianity, thus human wisdom( not God's wisdom) began to make their own laws, like for example, that those who wants to serve God must not marry and stuff like that. thus many priests do not marry. the people who defend this anti marrage thing, is quoted from paul, who said this
1 Corinthians 7
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband
>> http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+7&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on please read this for further context
when u look at this, it would appear that paul encouraged the people not to marry, but if u look carefully, he did say that if those who hv to marry, go ahead, it doesn't mean u don't love God when u marry, tt is ridiculous isn't it?
to go without marraige is a gift from God, but not everyone is given that gift. those who try to do so, without this gift, will end up doing more wrong things, like the corinthians in this case, tts why paul said its better for them to marry. He wished that the people don't have to, so they can concentrate on God better, but u noticed he said he [b]wished. it is not a command from God. thats cuz God's plan is for the people to be fruitful and multiply ( to cheeky people -- it means marry hv children, not happily simpily bang bang bang.)
back to the priest who hv sexual misconducts, its cuz they were in a sense forced to not to marry, and they burned with passion and thus led to do wrong things. but whose fault was that? not God, not paul, but the misinterpretation of the gospel, taking out of context and self righteousness. not sure if i explained clearly enuff, PM me if u dun understand. Peace out mofos. [/b]
They chose NOT to be Christians for this very reason. -
if they are atheists, we force them to "convert"?
so, if you are negro, we force you to turn into some other ethnic group by bleaching your skin and tampering with your DNA?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and so the bible said the name of God is tarnished among the gentiles becuz of wat the believers do.. -
if you didn't read my posts previously, no one can force them to do anything. we share our faith in earnest, why? cause the price is way way too high and its urgent.Originally posted by the Bear:if they are atheists, we force them to "convert"?
so, if you are negro, we force you to turn into some other ethnic group by bleaching your skin and tampering with your DNA? -
but your reasons don't matter to them...
too earnest, price too high? they are YOUR opinions...
not theirs... the people who matter.. the people whose rights you are trying to take away..
even Lau Lee knew this: the right to swing your arm ends where my nose startsOriginally posted by dumbdumb!:if you didn't read my posts previously, no one can force them to do anything. we share our faith in earnest, why? cause the price is way way too high and its urgent. -
yea, their eternity is at risk. my opinion? or God's opinion.Originally posted by the Bear:but your reasons don't matter to them...
too earnest, price too high? they are YOUR opinions...
not theirs... the people who matter.. the people whose rights you are trying to take away..
even Lau Lee knew this: the right to swing your arm ends where my nose starts
they still have their rights. they have the rights to choose for good or for evil. i'm just showing the 2 roads. christians face percercution too, so when they are condemned, who is there to cry out for justice? to validate that our "rights" have been trampled on? you are given the bible to read, so go read them AND find out what God feels about this whole issue. so far i haven't said anything abt bashing gays or anything. i am looking at them as people. but people who needs help, AND they have the right to know the solution. for u, bottomline is, u are given the bible to read, since u are a catholic, or so u claimed, make good use of it instead of telling me what your point of view is. since what i am saying comes from the bible. but i would agree with u on one point, its still up to them to choose lor, but i've presented why it is wrong, and possible solutions, its up to them to choose. i haven't taken away their "rights" -
do you know why they cannot eat pork?Originally posted by AzRaeL:Islamic and Judiac law say that you cannot eat pork.
But do you eat it? yeah cuz you're not Jewish or Muslim.
Likewise, do not tell others how they might live their lives.
ExGay? nah..they're just conforming to make you happy.
Freedom? that's questionable.
Freedom to live their lives as you want to. -
You know what.. i've been reading a lot of ur posts and i have this to say about you: You are full of HOT AIR. Seriously.Originally posted by AzRaeL:Do not tell Others how to live their lives.
They chose NOT to be Christians for this very reason.
Oh and abt this comment.. i think its really bull$hit. So did u go around asking EVERY single non-christian why they choose not to be? If u didn't, then i suggest u dont talk like u know EVERY non-christian has this reason. As if u understand them so well. -
And i juz wanna add.. this topic is pointless and can go on forever. There are some people who will just never get it.
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