Discrimination Against Homosexuality
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Again and again, the bible is quoted. You would make a stronger point if you would present your views in a logical manner instead, as not everyone believes in the bible. No one argues with logic.
I can respect faith, but it is difficult for those who do not share your faith to understand your viewpoint. It is like showing a book written in Chinese to an Englishman. Therefore, I shall not comment on that.like i said, ignoring them, merely just accepting them isn't the complete answer. in every one of us, there is a conscience given by God, we already know what is right and wrong, but we still choose to do wrong, due to our sinful nature of course, but use that conscience to think, if your child is gay, would u feel happy about it? ignore your child? or show your child, whom you love, what is wrong? this is how God sees them. as well as us, since we are all sinners.
Not all of us see ourselves as sinners, I'm afraid. If my child is gay, I can accept and respect his views. If my child decides to be a Christian, I shall not judge and say that he or she is right or wrong. I would encourage my child to explore and actually think about himself or herself, and his or her beliefs, rather than telling him or her what to believe in. Realizing the truth by yourself is the only way you will completely believe in something - not by someone telling you.and in a way, i agree, acceptence is important. but it cannot be confused and lead them to believe they are alright.
If sin is defined by God, it cannot be fully understood, or accepted by those who do not believe in God. Therefore, it is hard me to accept the argument that homosexuality is wrong, because it is a sin.
what is sin? sin is simply anything that falls short from God's perfectness. from a small lie, to rape and murder, is sin. even anger, hatred and unforgiveness is murder.
I'm glad you feel that acceptance is important. I'm not saying homosexuality is right, and the only way to go. However, I'm not saying that homosexuality is wrong either. It is merely a different point of view, just like Christianity is. -
In this case, our definition of "acceptance", "discrimination", and "unnatural" is not the same. I don't think that either of us are wrong - just a difference in how we see these terms.Originally posted by fader:hmm, i guess you misread my post if i'm not wrong. i never said we should discriminate them.
but anyway, i refuted your post because you claimed that my argument was invalid. and your reply to mine was exactly what i said. 
cheers.
I'd also like to apologise for saying your argument is invalid.
Your quote:my take on this is that there is no right or wrong. but homosexuality is unnatural and therefore shouldn't be accepted.
Your quote:the best thing to do is, accept them but do not encourage them.
My quote:I do not believe that homosexuals should be discriminated. They should be accepted, but we should not encourage others to be homosexual.
You make very good points in refuting my post, which I understood fully. Thank you for actually taking the time to think through and tell me how you feel in terms I can actually understand. I think that in the end, we did end up saying the same thing!
Cheers! -
everyone has their own reasons.Originally posted by summerain22:You know what.. i've been reading a lot of ur posts and i have this to say about you: You are full of HOT AIR. Seriously.
Oh and abt this comment.. i think its really bull$hit. So did u go around asking EVERY single non-christian why they choose not to be? If u didn't, then i suggest u dont talk like u know EVERY non-christian has this reason. As if u understand them so well.
you're missing the point as usual. -
obviously i would quote the bible, since the starter of the topic didn't understand the christian's viewpoint about this issue, i would of course explain it, while defending my faith. to do so in any other way would not help him understand. having people of the same faith, at least 50% of the same faith anyway, flaming me wouldn't help BLIM understand why christians are very firm with this.Originally posted by Icefalcon:Again and again, the bible is quoted. You would make a stronger point if you would present your views in a logical manner instead, as not everyone believes in the bible. No one argues with logic.
I can respect faith, but it is difficult for those who do not share your faith to understand your viewpoint. It is like showing a book written in Chinese to an Englishman. Therefore, I shall not comment on that.
If sin is defined by God, it cannot be fully understood, or accepted by those who do not believe in God. Therefore, it is hard me to accept the argument that homosexuality is wrong, because it is a sin.
I'm glad you feel that acceptance is important. I'm not saying homosexuality is right, and the only way to go. However, I'm not saying that homosexuality is wrong either. It is merely a different point of view, just like Christianity is. -
or rather u are missing the whole point as usual on why i would quote the bible, and why christianity have to be firm with this issue. at least bear has a point to make, she was worried that the rights of the gays would be taken away, though it isn't very biblical, her point of argument was valid. whereas for your case, besides insults, do you have anything constructive to start with?Originally posted by AzRaeL:everyone has their own reasons.
you're missing the point as usual. -
do you think most homosexual people are unaware of the religious views? do you think that they are ignorant of the bigotry they will face? do you think that they are oblivious to the discrimination they will have to endure?
they have (in your words) made their choice...
do we have any right to unmake their choice for them?
you keep harping on about sin... i know it is.. it is to me too.. however, the moment you force anyone, it stops being free will..
if you want to use the Good Book as a basis, what about this one?
Adam and Eve...
they made their choices... did God undo their choices? God gave them free will... and they made the wrong choices and suffered the consequences...
back to the gay people... they know the consequences and are willing to accept them... you want to "deprive them" of their choice and consequences? who do you think you are? God? mightier than God?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:should we deprive them from knowing they chose somethign wrong?
no one forces them to change, like no one forces anyone to receive salvation.
i'm here to explain the stand on why christianity is against homosexuality cause blim seemed to be antagonistic, so i hoped i provided enough answers.
but i find that its impt that they be given a choice first. remember, we were enslaved to sin, we didn't hv a choice not to sin, its only when Jesus came to save us, then we had a choice. same with these people. they didn't know that they could choose not to become like that. ask those ex-gays who went delieverence and are now leading normal lives, married with kids living a life of freedom. -
ok, lets use me as an example. before i was a christian, i thought i was right, i hated christianity, and thought i knew all there is about christianity, before someone "violated my rights to be a non christian" then i knew. these people, may, or may not know what is wrong. they may have chosen, cause they didn't know. due to some hurts and stuff.Originally posted by the Bear:do you think most homosexual people are unaware of the religious views? do you think that they are ignorant of the bigotry they will face? do you think that they are oblivious to the discrimination they will have to endure?
they have (in your words) made their choice...
do we have any right to unmake their choice for them?
you keep harping on about sin... i know it is.. it is to me too.. however, the moment you force anyone, it stops being free will..
if you want to use the Good Book as a basis, what about this one?
Adam and Eve...
they made their choices... did God undo their choices? God gave them free will... and they made the wrong choices and suffered the consequences...
back to the gay people... they know the consequences and are willing to accept them... you want to "deprive them" of their choice and consequences? who do you think you are? God? mightier than God?
if this was just a personal issue, like some people want to be gay, so be it, i mean, i would hv explained why it was wrong, but if they still continued to choose the latter, i have no more say. but this is a global issue, government issue. its not just a personal one, it affects everyone. as for you, what do you think is God's view?
as for adam and eve, God made adam and eve, not adam and steve. and when they sinned, they were driven out, that was the consequences of their sin. so you think we should apply this?
but not to go out of point. the reason why i had to take up this stand cause the spot light is on christian's viewpoint about this issue. -- 1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, --- i would say i tried to be respectful as much as possible while being firm. no vulgarities, no insults *though i have taken alot* -- though this verse refers to sharing of christ, i feel its applicable as well cause i have to give them an answer to why we feel this way, when i said we, you want me to include you? or just christians, then share with them a possible solution, without "trampling on their rights" and so far, tell me, have i trampled on their rights?
as for you thinking i am forcing anyone, have i? i've spoken on why christianty sees this issue this way, not forced anyone to do anything, like i said, people cannot choose properly without seeing clearly the choices. me as an example of my past
are you sure they are willing to accept the consequences? are you positively sure, cause the way i see things are going, they are fighting to make their own consequences, namely acceptance. which doesn't look like a consequence to me. this sounds harsh, yet like i said, adam and eve were punished serverely, and i believe God has His way of dealing with this issue, i rather concentrate in speaking out in defence to the gospel. rather than kick another believer's arse for speaking out what that is truth.back to the gay people... they know the consequences and are willing to accept them... you want to "deprive them" of their choice and consequences?
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i'm Catholic....
the church says it is a sin... but that applies to Catholics...
this pressure against the gay community, to me, is pure blantant hypocrisy based on bigotry...
i ask you this.. is homosexuality a sin? is this why the church is against the community?
also, i ask you to do this: don't parrot the stand of your church.. what is YOUR PERSONAL STAND? -
i dun parrot the stand of my church, if u ask my opinion i'd still say the same thing. except i'd be much ruder about it.Originally posted by the Bear:i'm Catholic....
the church says it is a sin... but that applies to Catholics...
this pressure against the gay community, to me, is pure blantant hypocrisy based on bigotry...
i ask you this.. is homosexuality a sin? is this why the church is against the community?
also, i ask you to do this: don't parrot the stand of your church.. what is YOUR PERSONAL STAND?
i "parrot" God, if u feel that i parrot my church, then i'm glad, cause that means my church feels the same way God feels. its hard to hate the sin yet love the sinner though.
why is the church against the community? please get yr fact straight. firstly the church is against the gay movement. firstly, of its influences on the people. look at the churches who first accept them, they become so used to it, they didn't even bother to talk to them. i don't want that to happen. first the government will say, yea lets make gay legal, gay school gay shows, gay movies. this will definitely impact the society. for better? nope, for worse. i don't believe sodom was a gay city all at once. it starts with one. then another. then it was destroyed. -
as for putting up my stand. its easier to stand up for what you believe rather than what God clearly believes. so far you can't exactly tell me how God feels right? so much for catholics impacting the kingdom. seriously no offence here, but thats MY opinion.
why i rather not state my stand so much rather than God's stand? cause i am imperfect, my stand, no matter how right i feel, would be wrong in some way, i rather quote God, the only perfect one. wouldn't it be more sensible (looking at the christian view)
why do you think that when christian council another believer, they would speak on how God would have settle the issue, than how we would, if we *meaning believers* can only talk about our view, instead of God's view, what makes us different? what makes us salt and light? -
frankly, there has never been a "movement" that tries to promote gay living... the movement has always been to educate people against bigotry... to live and let live.. to let the gay community have the same rights as the straight community.. is that bad?
what galls me is that the church is so hypocritical about this... YES! EVEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! has been so hypocritical about this..
again, i ask this question... is it because homosexuality is a sin that the church discriminates against it?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i dun parrot the stand of my church, if u ask my opinion i'd still say the same thing. except i'd be much ruder about it.
i "parrot" God, if u feel that i parrot my church, then i'm glad, cause that means my church feels the same way God feels. its hard to hate the sin yet love the sinner though.
why is the church against the community? please get yr fact straight. firstly the church is against the gay movement. firstly, of its influences on the people. look at the churches who first accept them, they become so used to it, they didn't even bother to talk to them. i don't want that to happen. first the government will say, yea lets make gay legal, gay school gay shows, gay movies. this will definitely impact the society. for better? nope, for worse. i don't believe sodom was a gay city all at once. it starts with one. then another. then it was destroyed. -
and another thing. if i am, proven wrong, that God disapprove of this act, and that actually God approves of this gay movement, then i will definitely make an apology here. but can you do the same? if i am proven right instead? make an apology to me here?
thats also my selfish stand.
so thats why i rather just speak how God feel instead of how i feel cuz i am imperfect and selfish -
if you are meaning that the church is ONLY against this particular sin, u are so wrong, but because this particular sin is really really threatening now, tts why we are speaking more of it. and also, because, i have repeated this like so many times, the starter of the topic was blaming christians for thisOriginally posted by the Bear:frankly, there has never been a "movement" that tries to promote gay living... the movement has always been to educate people against bigotry... to live and let live.. to let the gay community have the same rights as the straight community.. is that bad?
what galls me is that the church is so hypocritical about this... YES! EVEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! has been so hypocritical about this..
again, i ask this question... is it because homosexuality is a sin that the church discriminates against it?
if he blame christians on why they don't accept smoking as a religious right or something, i would hv stood up also.
if i didn't give a good answer, its cuz i dun understand the question. -
you still do not get it do you?
it's not about right or wrong... it's about the right to make decisions!
it's about the right to not be discriminated against when you are different...
it's about free will...
what they are, is not what i am, is not what you are... so we go to war?
that is what too many wars are fought over... that someone is different and therefore must die...Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and another thing. if i am, proven wrong, that God disapprove of this act, and that actually God approves of this gay movement, then i will definitely make an apology here. but can you do the same? if i am proven right instead? make an apology to me here?
thats also my selfish stand.
so thats why i rather just speak how God feel instead of how i feel cuz i am imperfect and selfish -
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
remember this?
why are the other religions not persecuted the same way the gay community is persecuted?
if the churches are going to "live and let live" with the other religions, why are those "godless" gay people persecuted with such vigour?
if you interpret that commandment as closely as the unwritten one as you said in Sodom and Gomorrah, then all of Christendom would be at war.. just like in the Dark Ages...Originally posted by dumbdumb!:if you are meaning that the church is ONLY against this particular sin, u are so wrong, but because this particular sin is really really threatening now, tts why we are speaking more of it. and also, because, i have repeated this like so many times, the starter of the topic was blaming christians for this
if he blame christians on why they don't accept smoking as a religious right or something, i would hv stood up also.
if i didn't give a good answer, its cuz i dun understand the question. -
if u hv watch d Channel U Ok, No Problem on Wed (30/7/03), u will be touch by d person who is a gay and dare to stand out and speak even though he noe that he is not accepted by d society....
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the Anglican and Episcopal Churches both have openly gay ministers.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and another thing. if i am, proven wrong, that God disapprove of this act, and that actually God approves of this gay movement, then i will definitely make an apology here. but can you do the same? if i am proven right instead? make an apology to me here?
thats also my selfish stand.
so thats why i rather just speak how God feel instead of how i feel cuz i am imperfect and selfish
The Episcopal Church has gay bishops even. As does the United Church.
Do you assume to know the bible and god better than them? -
smoking is bad for the health, it's NOT the same as homosexuality where you are born that way.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i have repeated this like so many times, the starter of the topic was blaming christians for this
if he blame christians on why they don't accept smoking as a religious right or something, i would hv stood up also.
Blaming Christians? No other religion stood up and started writing letters to oppose the new openness.
No other religion tries to change people and tell them that homosexuality is a curable disease. -
(i expected this to be brought up soon)...Originally posted by AzRaeL:the Anglican and Episcopal Churches both have openly gay ministers.
The Episcopal Church has gay bishops even. As does the United Church.
Do you assume to know the bible and god better than them? -
and your answer is?Originally posted by sillyme:(i expected this to be brought up soon)... -
the fallen churchesOriginally posted by AzRaeL:and your answer is? -
frankly.. i got no satisfactory for you.. Originally posted by AzRaeL:and your answer is?
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good answer! the fault always lies externally. Something the CHURCH excels at.Originally posted by duotiga83:the fallen churches
Bad things happen = the devil
good things happen = God
how deliciously simplistic. -
may i know what kind of model ans do you want to have?Originally posted by AzRaeL:good answer! the fault always lies externally. Something the CHURCH excels at.
Bad things happen = the devil
good things happen = God
how deliciously simplistic.
thnkx -
that perhaps the churches in Singapore are outmoded and need to change.Originally posted by duotiga83:may i know what kind of model ans do you want to have?
thnkx
once upon a time churches condemned scientists and astronomers for heresy.