Discrimination Against Homosexuality
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sorry to sidetrack.. it's true that love exists in different forms..
but the essence of true love is that it should be unconditional.. else love cease to exist.. as christians we are called to God-like.. hence, we too should have a quality of unselfish love..
'love thy neighbour as thyself'.. do we love ourselves because we have certain qualities? no, we love ourselves because we just do.. unconditional is a hard thing to achieve.. but it's possible..
from here, choose how you would think of homosexuals or anybody else..Originally posted by dumbdumb!:haha actually... i disagree abt this unconditional love..
there are actually 3 kinds of love. agape, felio, and eros.
agape is God's love, unconditional, and it will make u a better person as u respond to it, eros, erotic love, lol meant for husband and wife, look at bar for more info lol, and felio, friendship. only God can agape(love) others. its a gift, since all of us cannot fully love EVERYONE unconditionally everytime. the only love most of us show is eros... based on the top 20 forums ratings.. nah just joking, most of us can only show felio love, and thats friendship. its not unconditional. look at our lives and our friends, or rather our enemies, and we know. it takes forgivenes of someone who offended u again and again, and even that is very hard to do.
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still.. mere acceptance is not the complete equation.. at least we should inform them the truth, then leave them to decide for their own. but the church won't tolerate gay behavior within the church lor, tts so biblical, only a non believer wun understand, or if a believer don't understand, might as well be a non believer, cuz there isn't much of a difference anymore.Originally posted by sillyme:sorry to sidetrack.. it's true that love exists in different forms..
but the essence of true love is that it should be unconditional.. else love cease to exist.. as christians we are called to God-like.. hence, we too should have a quality of unselfish love..
'love thy neighbour as thyself'.. do we love ourselves because we have certain qualities? no, we love ourselves because we just do.. unconditional is a hard thing to achieve.. but it's possible..
from here, choose how you would think of homosexuals or anybody else..
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aiya.. i'm not disagreeing with you.. ponder about 'loving your neighbour as yourself' first..
then think about the statement made by the church council..
then you'll know how to deal with the situation.. it's not just by words.. it's by what you do.. and it's not reacting immediately and start some campaign to educate them.. it's by being their friends.. if they hear God, the let the Spirit guide them.. if they don't, then there's nothing much else but being a real friend..Originally posted by dumbdumb!:still.. mere acceptance is not the complete equation.. at least we should inform them the truth, then leave them to decide for their own. but the church won't tolerate gay behavior within the church lor, tts so biblical, only a non believer wun understand, or if a believer don't understand, might as well be a non believer, cuz there isn't much of a difference anymore. -
i dunno if i can be a real friend when they start gaying me or my friends, or worse, the children in my church.Originally posted by sillyme:aiya.. i'm not disagreeing with you.. ponder about 'loving your neighbour as yourself' first..
then think about the statement made by the church council..
then you'll know how to deal with the situation.. it's not just by words.. it's by what you do.. and it's not reacting immediately and start some campaign to educate them.. it's by being their friends.. if they hear God, the let the Spirit guide them.. if they don't, then there's nothing much else but being a real friend..
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you totally miss the point.Originally posted by summerain22:In our opinion, nothing is impossible for God. No disease is incurable. That's IF u can even call it a disease anyway. After creating the world, i dont think this is gonna be a problem.
Yes i know what u're gonna say.. "That's ur belief.. blah blah blah". Well i just wanted to tell u why we say that homosexuality is curable.
Homosexuality is NOT a disease
and not something to be cured.
Why dont you go work on curing Cancer and AIDS instead? these people DO want to be cured. -
they probably find you totally unattractive... and even if you hit on them, they'd reject you...
why is there this misconception that gay people are raving sex-crazed molesters going around trying to rape everyone they see?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i dunno if i can be a real friend when they start gaying me or my friends, or worse, the children in my church. -
like what i said before.. what u dunno, learn.. know more about that them.. like bear says, don't live on misconceptions..Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i dunno if i can be a real friend when they start gaying me or my friends, or worse, the children in my church.
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just wanna offer a few thoughts... humbly
there's this big debate whether homosexuality is in-born (no choice..born this way) or it's active acknowledgement by the person..
consider the following scenario 1
Z is a female, but when she was brought up. Perhaps the father has been a violent person, wife beater.... and hence Z is totally disgusted with males. hence find comfort in her female counterparts.. and let's say she's from a single sex school and as she grows older.. she finds tht females are more attractive in tht sense.. and just doesn't like guys.
senario 2
say this male, Y assuming he was born with more female hormones (correct me if i'm wrong? never took bio~~ ) and as he grew up, his mannerisms were more femmenine and..since young he just din like hanging around with girls... since there were so many in his family..and ya just begin to have an attraction for males.
ok.. pardon me for the 2 very stereo-typical-and-lousy scenarios.
just wanted to make a point. person Y in tht sense can say.. "i'm born, like this... it's natural for me... why CHANGE me? "
if change is needed for Y, wat change is tht? change tht is acceptable in societal norms? so Y's perspective of normal and societal's norm is different. is tht wrong? is tht sin?
...for Z becos of maybe her background and past hurts.. tht led her to make a choice such as this. to abhor males, to dislike males.
so, being caught in this, led to Z liking other females.
is this wrong?
may i quote.. from the bible:
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
wat's the sin here tht's mentioned.... is it the "lust, indecent acts" in 26. but i can argue and say "i only like him/her wat... i never do anything physical or commit any thing.. just like... wrong meh?!"
let's pause here.. and consider then. wat is sin.
is lying sin? yes. is being greedy sin? yes. is worship of idols sin? yes. is murder sin? yes.
is having lust sin? yes. watching porn sin? yes. is masturbation a sin? yes.
so basically if u wanna put it extremely.. everything tht's not for God. it's against God.
den why is there this stigmasation tht as though there are some sins tht seems more "serious"... for e.g... u lie... "oh.. it's ok lah.... white lie... u know... ho hum.." as compared to "eee.... u watch porn !!! u disgusting creature." or "oh my gosh... tht so and so is gay!!"
funny how it seems we can givee more empathy to say a drug addict, who's is trying hard to turn away from drugs... say a period of 6 months.. den he goes back to his heroin/pot.
and here we have a HS, who's trying to change... and pple shun him/her... eee... tht gay/lesbian.. dun wanna associate with him/her... and finally after months of trying.. gives up. goes back to his/her way of living.
for the drug addict..the normal response would be... "oh ppoor thing .. he cannot help it.." wat about for the HS who's trying geniuely to change... have we made it harder for them? by even not being welcome indifferent to them?
friends. in the christian perspective. Sin is defintely something tht cannot be judged. nor is it because i commit less sins tht seem "graver" or quantatively i commit less sins than u.. i'm so much better than. sin is just a condition. there's was this " oh u christians are so uppity and snobbish.." if anyone of u had certain experiences of christian bigotry.. i appeal to u and just wanna clarify tht not all christians are the same.. just as no 2 fingerprints are identical..
Matthew 7
4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
coming back to the point. wat den in homosexuality is sin.
i believe it's the refusal of being "normal", and what our Creator has intended for male and female. saying this, i want to apologise if i offend anyone... but my take is i don believe in the "homosexual gene" or "i'm born this way"
IMHO, there must be a point in life. where u feel tht u can choose ur sexual orientation, even though circumstances may force u to go otherwise.
then, there's this big hoo ha about wat PM Goh said.. and the multiple responses. i feel tht some of the responses .. have been misintepreted.. and not exactly worded correctly/ perceived correctly
just wanna use the analogy of smoking and drinking.. no offence to any1 k? ( i have loadsa party animal friends.. and i enjoy their company and loyal friendship Ü)
just go down the streets and ask like 10 pple..
a: "u smoke?" b:"yup" a: "oh ok cool =)"
a: "u drink?" b: "yup" a: "ok cool"
let's say u can give sg a hard reset and u had a choice.. would u bring in alcohol and cigarettes for tht matter? or if u just give birth to a baby. would u introduce him to drinks and cigarettes as he/she grows up. my point is... with now the acknoledgement of homosexuals, this is a first step in the change of standards.... i forsee tht perhaps in the next 5 years, MAYBE (assumptive) therw would be gay/lesbian laws.... just like the US... so perhaps 10 years or dunno how many years down the road...
a: " u gay/lesbian" b: yea. a: "oh ok.. cool"
i feel maybe the church council has tht concern... tht the govt has taked tht very first step.. baby step...towards the US culture.
so wat then should my response be? for me. i have no problems if u are gay/lesbian wateva. just as the most cliche phrase hate the sin love the sinnner...or modifications... love the smoker, hate the smoke.....bla bla
ultimately if u have geniune concern.. love thy neighbour as yourself. never be condescending and bigot.
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
7But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
thanks for hearing me =) -
nicely put
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Interesting to note that the majority of hatred directed towards homosexuals are against gays, not against lesbians.
Hypocritism? -
Oh, so now u're an expert on homosexuals?Originally posted by AzRaeL:you totally miss the point.
Homosexuality is NOT a disease
and not something to be cured.
Why dont you go work on curing Cancer and AIDS instead? these people DO want to be cured. Who are u to say what they want or do not want? Some of these people actually DON'T wanna feel this way. Take my friend for example. Before he accepted the fact that he was well.. different from others.. he asked me to help him.
I'm not saying that ALL want to be helped. But some do. Now who's not getting the point? -
Originally posted by omit:
I like this, especially the last sentance. Also, most drug addicts actually bring their own fate upon themselves - I'm sure most have been educated on how bad drugs are. I don't think this is the case for homosexuality, yet it does seem like we're showing more care and concern for drug addicts than homosexuals.
ultimately if u have geniune concern.. love thy neighbour as yourself. never be condescending and bigot.Originally posted by the Bear:
There are probably more sex crazed straight people running around right now.
why is there this misconception that gay people are raving sex-crazed molesters going around trying to rape everyone they see?
Ladies please be careful!
As for "curing" homosexuality... Yep, some genuinely want to be cured by the love of God. Help them!
As for the rest, we should not condemn them. We warn children not to play with fire because everyone knows fire can cause great harm and destruction - but not everyone agrees that homosexuality is evil. -
Originally posted by Icefalcon:
yea. they hv to seek help. of course if they dun want to, then nth the world can do. i've asked my church members about this.
There are probably more sex crazed straight people running around right now. Ladies please be careful!
As for "curing" homosexuality... Yep, some genuinely want to be cured by the love of God. Help them!
As for the rest, we should not condemn them. We warn children not to play with fire because [b]everyone knows fire can cause great harm and destruction - but not everyone agrees that homosexuality is evil.[/b]
my church would accept themas people, and would treat them the same way if they want to come to church as visitors and stuff, but when they start to gay around people in the church, the actions will not be tolerated. they are more than welcome to seek help.
as for the fire thingy comparing with being gay. children may not agree that playing fire is dangerous either, but that wun stop the parents from stopping them from playing with fire would they?
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gays and lesbians are the same thing.. girls lesbians are called gays as well. sheesh!Originally posted by Stevenson101:Interesting to note that the majority of hatred directed towards homosexuals are against gays, not against lesbians.
Hypocritism?
i've seen buthes in churches hugging each other and stuff, and its seriously disturbing. -.- -
I'm glad your church has such a tolerant view about things, and are willing to help them if they seek help, instead of condemning them, like some people would.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:yea. they hv to seek help. of course if they dun want to, then nth the world can do. i've asked my church members about this.
my church would accept themas people, and would treat them the same way if they want to come to church as visitors and stuff, but when they start to gay around people in the church, the actions will not be tolerated. they are more than welcome to seek help.
as for the fire thingy comparing with being gay. children may not agree that playing fire is dangerous either, but that wun stop the parents from stopping them from playing with fire would they?
I'm of the opinion that that homosexuals are not children. If we consider them as children, when they are not (at least, I've never heard of child homosexuals), then we are being condescending.
Parents would of course stop children from playing with fire - I think everyone agrees that in most cases, especially concerning fire, parents are wiser than children, therefore, they are not being condescending. -
I am a Gay.....
Person
P.S. Gay as in Happy -
wat do u mean by "gay around pple" in the church? flirt with them, touch here touch there type thing? i think i better wait for u to explain EXACTLY wat u mean by that b4 i jump to conclusions and burst out.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:yea. they hv to seek help. of course if they dun want to, then nth the world can do. i've asked my church members about this.
my church would accept themas people, and would treat them the same way if they want to come to church as visitors and stuff, but when they start to gay around people in the church, the actions will not be tolerated. they are more than welcome to seek help.
as for the fire thingy comparing with being gay. children may not agree that playing fire is dangerous either, but that wun stop the parents from stopping them from playing with fire would they?
it'll be along the lines of wat bear said: why do u have a preconception that they are sex-crazed beasts, except i probably wouldn't be that polite.
so wat EXACTLY do u mean by that statement? and on top of that, how does that compare with a STRAIGHT guy going in and flirting with the women? -
Firstly, i am talking via my perspective. I don't despise gays neither do i love gays with open arms. What i believe is what most believe. They are human too but adopting a different lifestyle which is not the norm in most countries and cultures.In the Quran, Muslims have learnt that Allah sbt send a disastrous ending to my propeht, Luth to his race (aptly called Sadom i.e. by which sodom is derived)Sadom people are openly gays in the Al Quran and Luth was urged by Allah sbt to encourage his race to avoid the wayward path and return to normal. Instead of hating them and avoiding them totally, he adopted a care and change apporach we can use similarly.
I used to have a friend which is more the feminine side since primary school to poly. Guess what? He didn't even bothered to change despite being "disowned" by his family and relatives. I believe he now lives with his boyfriend in his house. He is now learning fashion designing. I am happy for him because he achieved a rather different form of happiness in his life. Why? Because it is his life. And no matter how many googolplex of advice is given to him, i am sure he wun return to normal path because he loves his life just like us.
Actually, i dun understand the issue about that gays in churches -
God did destroy Sodom and Gomorrah but not on the basis of homosexuality but to be precise sexual immorality and wickedness.Originally posted by Taufiq:Firstly, i am talking via my perspective. I don't despise gays neither do i love gays with open arms. What i believe is what most believe. They are human too but adopting a different lifestyle which is not the norm in most countries and cultures.In the Quran, Muslims have learnt that Allah sbt send a disastrous ending to my propeht, Luth to his race (aptly called Sadom i.e. by which sodom is derived)Sadom people are openly gays in the Al Quran and Luth was urged by Allah sbt to encourage his race to avoid the wayward path and return to normal. Instead of hating them and avoiding them totally, he adopted a care and change apporach we can use similarly.
I used to have a friend which is more the feminine side since primary school to poly. Guess what? He didn't even bothered to change despite being "disowned" by his family and relatives. I believe he now lives with his boyfriend in his house. He is now learning fashion designing. I am happy for him because he achieved a rather different form of happiness in his life. Why? Because it is his life. And no matter how many googolplex of advice is given to him, i am sure he wun return to normal path because he loves his life just like us.
Actually, i dun understand the issue about that gays in churches -
isnt that quite the sameOriginally posted by NeonTetra:God did destroy Sodom and Gomorrah but not on the basis of homosexuality but to be precise sexual immorality and wickedness.
and since when is it on the basis of wickedness? -
Regarding the issue on Gays in the Episcopal Church...i am an anglican myself and wish to make it known that no churches in this world is perfect. The reason why churches exist because we are fallen people in need of God's salvation.
The Anglican Church in this region recently issued a Statement to break communion with a Diocese that has chosen to act contrary to the Bible's teaching by allowing same sex marriage....
Read the Statement from the Province of Anglican Church in SE Asia
We as part of the Province do not hesitate to break ties with Dioceses that wish to do according to what the world says but read carefully, we will be reconciled once the issue is settled. -
Originally posted by NeonTetra:Regarding the issue on Gays in the Episcopal Church...i am an anglican myself and wish to make it known that no churches in this world is perfect. The reason why churches exist because we are fallen people in need of God's salvation.
The Anglican Church in this region recently issued a Statement to break communion with a Diocese that has chosen to act contrary to the Bible's teaching by allowing same sex marriage....
Read the Statement from the Province of Anglican Church in SE Asia
We as part of the Province do not hesitate to break ties with Dioceses that wish to do according to what the world says but read carefully, we will be reconciled once the issue is settled.
no offence dude, but we, or i, aren't really interested in going into a thesis or research about wat the church, or THAT church thinks about eh... about wat ar? oh.. same sex marriages.
but i guess a few pple here might be interested in ur info. -
no problem pal
just want to share some examples since same sex union and homosexulity are almost if not the same. Want to let the people know that just we treated the erred churches seriously and don condemned those so-called unbelievers. Never! Christians/Non-Christians...the Church wants to help them and love them as before. But just as sin separates God from Man, such immoral things will severe commnunions between Dioceses, not because we are childish and say 'We dont friend you liao!!' but because just as we love those who have erred, we need to publicly demonstrate that we dont tolerate that kind of behaviour by Bishop Michael Ingham. -
Who is GOD?? You? Me? There is no GOD in this world, only believe...Originally posted by dumbdumb!:of course the bible cannot be taken out of context. where u just simply grab a sentence and make a point. but i'd like to quote this whole paragraph
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
i'm not taking out of context cause this whole paragraph shows us how my God sees it, remembering that He hates sin, not the sinner, and longs to set things right.
smoking is wrong, i do not know about other churches, but my pastor preaches against smoking as well, not just about this impending issue.
like i said, ignoring them, merely just accepting them isn't the complete answer. in every one of us, there is a conscience given by God, we already know what is right and wrong, but we still choose to do wrong, due to our sinful nature of course, but use that conscience to think, if your child is gay, would u feel happy about it? ignore your child? or show your child, whom you love, what is wrong? this is how God sees them. as well as us, since we are all sinners.
Anyway, stop this topic... Its an endless arguement... THere is no RIGHT and no WRONG.
Christians, go back to your church and pray to your god. -
If there is GOD, then GOD is to blame for the gays/lesbians... THEY CREATED THEM!
GOD help??? Why so many people suffer... STOP this GODDIE thingy lah...
Jus believe what you believe... Best if you are free thinker...