Using religion for sex
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About the marriage thing... It could work - but it will be tough.
Christians - imagine this... You get married to a non-Christian. Full of love and joy and all that. Now, you have a kid. Your husband/wife refuses to let the kid be a Christian.
Non-Christians merely have to imagine the opposite. Your spouse wants the kid to be a Christian.
Of course, you could always have an understanding partner and all that, but I'm guessing that anyone who marries a Christian, and yet refuses to be one, is probably strong enough in their beliefs, so that they would want their children to have the same beliefs as them. -
frankly, i'm not certain wat will happen to those who have not heard the gospels before, but I believe that a they will treated justly by GodOriginally posted by Icefalcon:If all those people who have never heard of Christ are going to be saved anyway, is belief, then, not necessary? My friends have taught me something about Christianity, which I have not accepted, have they damned me? If I remained ignorant about Christianity, just like many other people around the world, would I have been saved?
Well, if you are willing to be judged by something that happened 2000 years ago, I'm afraid you judge yourself more harshly than I do myself.
I don't feel that we should be responsible for what happened in the past - we should take charge of the present and take responsibility for our own actions and wrong-doings.
In my opinion, we must be judged by our own deeds, good or bad.
Eternal judgement, and salvation, if it exists, must lie on our deeds. If we are damned anyway, why bother to practise a good life?
If this is true, no amount of good or evil I do matters, as what counts has already happened 2000 years ago. Then what can save us? Is belief and repentance all that is necessary for salvation, regardless of deeds?
I urge all to think about this carefully with some logic. We may have different religious beliefs (I'm atheist), but logic is a skill that helps to seperate us from monkeys.
I live as my conscience and moral code dictates, and as free of hate as possible.
I think I have to say this.. that judgement was not passed out two thousand years ago on the cross.. what happened on calvary was an act of redemption.. in many religions, it's man's effort trying to reach out to their gods, just as what u mentioned justified/judged by our deeds and action.. what happened on the cross eliminates the need for deeds to justify our for God's approval..
salvation is an act of dying to one's natural self.. the dying to our desires and seeking to be Christ-like in the things we do Christ came to show the way back to God.. that is to die to his own desires and to submit to the Will of God, i.e. dying on the cross.. in that sense, salvation comes from faith.. believing that God has made the way possible back to Him, all we need is to submit to His will..
and from faith, there the deeds will follow.. if a sincere Christian seeks God in everything he does, naturally he will do good things.. it's faith that comes first, then the good deeds follow..
lastly, true love covers all sins.. it's hard to believe that our sins, no matter how heinous, can be forgiven as long as we repent.. (and true repentance means never to repeat it again..) it's hard to believe, but it's not impossible with God.. -
you got it right, icefalconOriginally posted by Icefalcon:About the marriage thing... It could work - but it will be tough.
Christians - imagine this... You get married to a non-Christian. Full of love and joy and all that. Now, you have a kid. Your husband/wife refuses to let the kid be a Christian.
Non-Christians merely have to imagine the opposite. Your spouse wants the kid to be a Christian.
Of course, you could always have an understanding partner and all that, but I'm guessing that anyone who marries a Christian, and yet refuses to be one, is probably strong enough in their beliefs, so that they would want their children to have the same beliefs as them. it's gonna be be harder than what most ppl think -
If all those people who have never heard of Christ are going to be saved anyway, is belief, then, not necessary? My friends have taught me something about Christianity, which I have not accepted, have they damned me? If I remained ignorant about Christianity, just like many other people around the world, would I have been saved?
you weren't damned because you were "enlightened" that a God actually exist. we were damned because we are. no one is excused for being "innocent" of the knowledge. it is said that the word of God is written in the hearts of men, it is proven by tribes in new guinea, aka cannabal island, that though they had no written form of their language, no one ever reached to them, they are beyond civilization's reach at that time. over 30 years ago. yet missionaries 30 years ago, they were the one who invented words for the people of the tribe,
were astonished that the tribal ppl had some form of God's law already woven in the hearts of the ppl. unwritten laws such as, its not good to kill others, take something that belongs to others, take someone elses' wife, disrespectful of elders and parents. these are the same law which is the 10 commandments, which Jesus came to fulfil on our behalf.
the word of God is already here since the begining of time. its just up to us to reject it or accept it. that decision is the turning point. to a long road to our physical death.If this is true, no amount of good or evil I do matters, as what counts has already happened 2000 years ago. Then what can save us? Is belief and repentance all that is necessary for salvation, regardless of deeds?
i'd 1/2 agree with u, cuz this is out of point. my point is that salvation, is not earned. it is given, freely, though the price isn't cheap.
u can accept it, or reject the gift, and everyone has a chance to hear the good news. again, there is no excuse for being "ignorant" of the gospel. its so readily available.
yes, belief, real belief and faith, and repentance in Jesus Christ saves. regardless of PAST. we are all equal. all in need of salvation.
as for deeds. we only act out what we believe. actions are a display of whats inside, what we truely believe. -
thats my point to simpleguy.. why we are discouraged to be yoked wth non believers, not discourage, the right term is forbidden.Originally posted by Icefalcon:About the marriage thing... It could work - but it will be tough.
Christians - imagine this... You get married to a non-Christian. Full of love and joy and all that. Now, you have a kid. Your husband/wife refuses to let the kid be a Christian.
Non-Christians merely have to imagine the opposite. Your spouse wants the kid to be a Christian.
Of course, you could always have an understanding partner and all that, but I'm guessing that anyone who marries a Christian, and yet refuses to be one, is probably strong enough in their beliefs, so that they would want their children to have the same beliefs as them.
its not so simple.. love simply, doesn't conquer all. not our kind of love anyway..
the differences is too great and it will do more harm than good. but some ppl overtake the boundary to saying bgr is bad and stuff like that, which is totally silly. -
and from faith, there the deeds will follow.. if a sincere Christian seeks God in everything he does, naturally he will do good things.. it's faith that comes first, then the good deeds follow..
Hmm... Tough one here. Does this mean that only Christians will do good deeds? Can good deeds and morals come only from God?
A person's personal beliefs, regardless of religion, could be similar to the Ten Commandments, and he or she could adhere to it strictly. For example, I also believe that it is wrong to steal, cheat, lie, and so on.
If a non-Christian does the same kind of good deeds as a Christian, is there salvation for him or her?
If I do the same kind of good deeds as a Christian, not out of hope for Heaven, nor out of fear for Hell, but merely for the sake of doing it, because it is right, what happens? Will there be salvation? Or will there be no salvation as I am guilty of not believing in it?
Is belief necessary for salvation, or deeds? Or both? Can you judge a person by beliefs, or deeds?
I'm sure that a person, without beliefs, is capable of the same good deeds and moral values as of those with beliefs.
Does it really boil down to: Believe or go to Hell, even if you've never committed an evil deed, as judged by the Ten Commandments? -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Now I get why my ex said that she couldn't be with me anymore because I'm not a Christian. Do both Catholics and Protestants forbid relationships with non-believers?
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thats my point to simpleguy.. why we are discouraged to be yoked wth non believers, not discourage, the right term is forbidden.
[b] -
Yes, I believe that it is true that non-christians are pagans and heretics to most christians.
Why:
1. Christians believe God give them the job that they want and non-christians are giving cow-dung work. -
as in marraige. relationships is ok wat. wats wrong with it. i meant that some ppl carry this verse too far lor, until relationships. cults like mormons, they do that.Originally posted by shandower:Now I get why my ex said that she couldn't be with me anymore because I'm not a Christian. Do both Catholics and Protestants forbid relationships with non-believers?
marriagewise is forbidden, relationship is alrite, but its just going to be complicated lor.
i said liaoz.. catholic is different. their believes are different from protestants. -
Originally posted by Icefalcon:
firstly, in the christian viewpoint of good deeds, good deeds are good, everyone can do them, regardless of religion, but salvation, does not come from good deeds, no amount of good deeds can cover up 1 wrong thing in your life. thats the main point.
Hmm... Tough one here. Does this mean that only Christians will do good deeds? Can good deeds and morals come [b]only from God?
A person's personal beliefs, regardless of religion, could be similar to the Ten Commandments, and he or she could adhere to it strictly. For example, I also believe that it is wrong to steal, cheat, lie, and so on.
If a non-Christian does the same kind of good deeds as a Christian, is there salvation for him or her?
If I do the same kind of good deeds as a Christian, not out of hope for Heaven, nor out of fear for Hell, but merely for the sake of doing it, because it is right, what happens? Will there be salvation? Or will there be no salvation as I am guilty of not believing in it?
Is belief necessary for salvation, or deeds? Or both? Can you judge a person by beliefs, or deeds?
I'm sure that a person, without beliefs, is capable of the same good deeds and moral values as of those with beliefs.
Does it really boil down to: Believe or go to Hell, even if you've never committed an evil deed, as judged by the Ten Commandments?[/b]
even the ten commandments do not save anyone, because simply, no human being can EVER accomplish them. in fact, the bible says the Law (ten commandments) condemns us, the Law is just telling us, what is the standard, the passing mark. His passing mark is 100%, one wrong doing, sin, dooms us. good deeds don't count. so if deeds cannot save us, cannot wipe out the sins in our lives? what then? God knew, we are weak, but the Law demands death for sin, so someone had to die, and that someone is Jesus, pure and sinless, His purity is exchanged for our sins, His purity is in us, and our sins are in Him, and He died, and rose again, to prove that God has now forgiven our past, present and future sins.
it is after salvation, where good deeds comes into play, to bless others, and it will naturally come, because of whom you put your faith in, deeds will come.
christians are no better than non christians, i tell you in your face right now, that there are non christians who are better in character than us christians. its just that we have salvation, a big cave of solid gold, and we want to share. its up to you to accept.
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Well put!
Maybe it's just me, but I find the concept of sin strange.
The same people who tell you that you have sinned offer salvation, and expect you to be grateful for it.
It's like someone stealing your wallet and returning it, and expecting you to be grateful for it. -
It's not like someone stealing ur wallet and then returning it. No one 'stole' anything from you. And, even before we tell u that u've sinned, dont u already know it yourself? Can anyone, even non-christians, honestly say that they've never sinned before in thwir entire life?Originally posted by Icefalcon:Well put!
Maybe it's just me, but I find the concept of sin strange.
The same people who tell you that you have sinned offer salvation, and expect you to be grateful for it.
It's like someone stealing your wallet and returning it, and expecting you to be grateful for it.
When we preach the gospel, we merely tell u that there is hope, that there is still a way to heaven. Nothing from u was ever taken, after Adam, every man was born with sin. -
Originally posted by summerain22:
Oh, maybe I wasnt specific, but when I meant 'know' I meant it in a deeper way. Like, to know who God is and who Jesus is, what He did for us and how much He loves us.
Knowing is not accepting. So no matter how much you 'know' about someone, you still can choose to hate or love that person.
And personally, I have done the whole 'temple and joss sticks' thing. You see, when u go to a temple, u're praying to a statue. And u can just sit there with ur joss sticks and at the end of it, u still feel dead inside. To me, it's just a statue, who cant reply me or do anything. (Dont wanna offend anyone, but that's just my PERSONAL experience of it.) But christianity is not a really a religion. Its abt having a relationship with God.. it's so much more than that.
Of course, I do realise that maybe some people still prefer the whole statue thing.
That's right. To you it's your relationship with God. To them it's also their relationship with their god(s). If you PREFER to call theirs 'religion' and yours not. That's fine with me...
Some might also see your prayers to Jesus just talking to a statue. But of course, they're not Christians so they won't understand... Don't blame their igorance and narrow-mindedness ok? 
Some find TAO a relationship with law of nature. Some find Buddhism a completion of inner self and life's cycle. To them, it's not just a 'religion'.
To most, their mum is not JUST a human. Their pet is NOT just an animal.
Did i say meaning IN life? Yes, many ppl w/o God find meaning in life. But what abt the meaning OF life?
Hmm... Very subjective matter for now? Even I myself have my own definition to 'Meaning of Life'. But of course, I don't expect everybody else to buy my story. In fact, neither am I ready to share it.
Btw, what kind of a person would find meaning in being burnt and tortured for all eternity?
You'll never know? Don't be too surprised. There're all sorts of people in this world. If you can CONVINCE them with a 'good' clause, they might just buy your story?
Yeah.. it's just a battle of gd and evil..
Hmm... Contradictory to that belief... My understanding has taught me that it's not exactly that. That's why people are always so confused about 'good' and 'evil'. Which is really VERY SUBJECTIVE?
Hmm.. do i detect a hint of sarcasm?
NAY... It's just that it's GOOD to FEEL FREE once in a while... And sticking on to a sensitive issue without being too sensitive about it...? -
......Originally posted by dumbdumb!:take everything anyone tells u with a pinch of salt, and always rever back to the bible for context, afterall, pastors, and humans are all well.. human, and humans make mistakes. but God never.
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Hmm.... I'm a DEVIL.... DEVIL....Originally posted by weird70s:Well if the people around the church accepts who you are, it is alright.
I met this frend of mine from a Buddist temple that had a very bad experience with a christian group, which was one of the biggest group. She got gb on the first night of the cell group studies by the pastor and several others after she thought she got hypontised and drugged. She found no evidence was found that she was drugged of any kind. 3 months later, she found herself pregnant and the church she join shunned her as a slut cause even her husband thought she was bonking around in church. Eventually, she divorce, left the church, aborted the child, and now studying Buddism. She blamed Christianity for causing her happy marriage to collapse, Jesus to be a "fake", and so many other issues.
I even dare not to tell her otherwise and just leave her alone in the temple as when someone abuse the religion, this is the consequence to the victims.[/quote]
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stealing your wallet? why is that so?Originally posted by Icefalcon:Well put!
Maybe it's just me, but I find the concept of sin strange.
The same people who tell you that you have sinned offer salvation, and expect you to be grateful for it.
It's like someone stealing your wallet and returning it, and expecting you to be grateful for it. -
I think that's the confusing part where even alot of Christians don't truly understand.... This 'SIN' though the same term as the 'bad deeds' we've commited in our life time, is different from it.... This 'SIN' refers to the 'SIN' even BEFORE we are born... That's why we're 'born with a sin'..... And quite truly speaking, no human can escape that....Originally posted by summerain22:It's not like someone stealing ur wallet and then returning it. No one 'stole' anything from you. And, even before we tell u that u've sinned, dont u already know it yourself? Can anyone, even non-christians, honestly say that they've never sinned before in thwir entire life?
When we preach the gospel, we merely tell u that there is hope, that there is still a way to heaven. Nothing from u was ever taken, after Adam, every man was born with sin. -
Strange? When you were born into this world, have you ever wonder what have you done to deserve it? Now, has it ever occur to you before? Isn't it STRANGE...?Originally posted by Icefalcon:Well put!
Maybe it's just me, but I find the concept of sin strange.
The same people who tell you that you have sinned offer salvation, and expect you to be grateful for it.
It's like someone stealing your wallet and returning it, and expecting you to be grateful for it. -
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hmm... interesting... thd dynamix 5 against all injustice and abuse of religion. Using all they have for their battles...Originally posted by Evil Clown: -
Yes, everyone is born with sin because of Adam. But, let's put it this way, even if it were not so, we would still have sin anyway because every human being sins. Even by the act of lying, whoever claims never to have told a lie before is already lying!Originally posted by Devil1976:I think that's the confusing part where even alot of Christians don't truly understand.... This 'SIN' though the same term as the 'bad deeds' we've commited in our life time, is different from it.... This 'SIN' refers to the 'SIN' even BEFORE we are born... That's why we're 'born with a sin'..... And quite truly speaking, no human can escape that.... -
seeing so many of the post, i guess i'll contribute my first post here.
Christians may not agree with me, but try to look at it from a neutral point of view.
Firstly, a lot of pple might be against christianity could be because of the agressive way they used to seek more followers. They find it intrusive as they nv had seen any other religion promote their religion. One modern way to look at it is BAD MARKETING.
However, the contradiction is why do the church need the people to market their religion? For people to beleve in a religion, the first thing is willingness. A lot of people are not willing to visit church for a lot of reasons, and thus meeting the agressiveness of the church-goer who try to bring them to church or to their cell group.. it's rather offensive.
I have such an experience before. Someone approach me for a survey, being nice i filled up the survey and gave them my contact number. Never had I expect someone from this famous church alling me every other weekend, persuading me to go to the church. She's a very young girl, and i ask her, why did she become a christian? She say to know more friends. Fine, not a very bad reason, but a wrong reason. Perhaps she is just one of the few that do not understand the meaning of christianity. To her, it is a way to widen her social circle.
Then I reach my uni years.. I have 3 fren in my tutor grp that are christian from that FAMOUS church (u know that rite?). After knowing them, they will try to get people in etc.. I did not go for any session at all, due to my work schedule.. my good fren went in and after a few weeks, she actually had a major quarrel with her room mate (who is that famous church goer). i asked her what happen.. She say (the exact words), "You tink i want to quarrel with her ah? That time go to that cell grp meeting and then go to her church. After that i still dun want to join mah, then she every nite preach to me, say read a few pages of the bible to me, even when i studying for my test leh. Say God can help me remember the facts better. U tell me who can tahan for long." Upon hearing that God can help her remember the fact better, i could help myself but laugh out loud. (2nd bad impression)
Then i went to ask her roommate what happen, (want to get both sides of story). She told me, "She dun understand why she dun want to join. say it is a FUN place, die liao will go to heaven one" Then she went on to promote me the famous church like some kind of high class club like that. Finally, i ask her the same question on why she become a christian, she say, "Coz i want to go to heaven and be an angel. Somemore, the church very fun."
Of course i have certain devoted christian fren who give me a good answer. One of them told me the reason he become a christian as it teaches him good. He learnt to be a better person thru the teachings.
Perhaps it is due to all these people who had the wrong concepts that gif christianity a bad name.
Lastly i end my piece by saying, no religion is bad, it's just how you apply their teachings to your life. -
Heh, so much arguments around here.
Ultimately, I believe in following to the best of my ability to live up to the commandments, esp the greatest commandment Christ told the Pharisees.
Of course, these alone is very difficult, especially when i'm so aware of my sinful and begin thinking and doubting if following His teachings can indeed bring forth salvation [afterall absolutely no humans can say who goes to heaven, who doesn't]. And so I ultimately don't have the salvation, what's the point being good?
{My point} God has already told [followers] what to do (the 10 commandments), [followers] should first, like Moses, lift the staff and lead the Jews out of Egpyt., the God's signs will follow. I'm saying here in effect, that God wants [me, at least] to first follow His words, and only then He'll show me the signs (and i do hope i'll be rewarded like Job). Following the way of God is NEVER wrong.
Afterall, even if the "signs" don't come, following the commandments helps to free yourself from each and everyone's own slavery (to sin). A simple one would be not to bear grudges and hate (to love your neighbors/enemies even), and if one would be able to do that, himself/herself would be definitely be more peaceful at heart. The commandments free us, and not restrain us. -
Heh well, i think i know quite well which church you are referring to, and very much as i would like to point out other "Bad Marketing" that they have made, explaining for them i think would be a better one.Originally posted by mCbaobao:seeing so many of the post, i guess i'll contribute my first post here.
Christians may not agree with me, but try to look at it from a neutral point of view.
Firstly, a lot of pple might be against christianity could be because of the agressive way they used to seek more followers. They find it intrusive as they nv had seen any other religion promote their religion. One modern way to look at it is BAD MARKETING.
However, the contradiction is why do the church need the people to market their religion? For people to beleve in a religion, the first thing is willingness. A lot of people are not willing to visit church for a lot of reasons, and thus meeting the agressiveness of the church-goer who try to bring them to church or to their cell group.. it's rather offensive.
I have such an experience before. Someone approach me for a survey, being nice i filled up the survey and gave them my contact number. Never had I expect someone from this famous church alling me every other weekend, persuading me to go to the church. She's a very young girl, and i ask her, why did she become a christian? She say to know more friends. Fine, not a very bad reason, but a wrong reason. Perhaps she is just one of the few that do not understand the meaning of christianity. To her, it is a way to widen her social circle.
Then I reach my uni years.. I have 3 fren in my tutor grp that are christian from that FAMOUS church (u know that rite?). After knowing them, they will try to get people in etc.. I did not go for any session at all, due to my work schedule.. my good fren went in and after a few weeks, she actually had a major quarrel with her room mate (who is that famous church goer). i asked her what happen.. She say (the exact words), "You tink i want to quarrel with her ah? That time go to that cell grp meeting and then go to her church. After that i still dun want to join mah, then she every nite preach to me, say read a few pages of the bible to me, even when i studying for my test leh. Say God can help me remember the facts better. U tell me who can tahan for long." Upon hearing that God can help her remember the fact better, i could help myself but laugh out loud. (2nd bad impression)
Then i went to ask her roommate what happen, (want to get both sides of story). She told me, "She dun understand why she dun want to join. say it is a FUN place, die liao will go to heaven one" Then she went on to promote me the famous church like some kind of high class club like that. Finally, i ask her the same question on why she become a christian, she say, "Coz i want to go to heaven and be an angel. Somemore, the church very fun."
Of course i have certain devoted christian fren who give me a good answer. One of them told me the reason he become a christian as it teaches him good. He learnt to be a better person thru the teachings.
Perhaps it is due to all these people who had the wrong concepts that gif christianity a bad name.
Lastly i end my piece by saying, no religion is bad, it's just how you apply their teachings to your life.
People attend church for many reasons, friends, widening of social circle, "Eternal life" (sadly, little really knows what this means), salvation (of self), sick pleasures even (which erks me), etc.
Many new converts are definitely happy and "charismatic" (i dun mean charismatic P&W, but a state when people are estatic and wants to share their new findings that has made them really happy. In this case, their religion.) So these charismatic people go around preaching the gospels in hope to bring new friends into the church. Their intentions are generally GOOD, which i have to stress. But sadly, their Bible "wisdom" (notice i didn't say knowledge) are still fresh, thus often misinterpret and stumble on the meanings of the Bible. The Bible is not simply a book, a self-help, a recipe for salvation, a "How-to-do-it?", but a book of uncountable mysteries and paradoxes, and is thus very abstract.
So my point here is, that while i maintain that it is not wrong to evangelize, and i agree that many Christians "Bad-market" themselves, their intents are good. The misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and oftentimes the ridiculously simple interpretations made by these new converts, while unavoidable, we should bear in mind that these root from a lack of Bible wisdom. If the Bible is that easy to understand, the spiritual author of the book (God himself) is hence made simple, which defies the meaning to the word "God" itself; the Christian theology, esp. the Summa Theologica (extremely thick book) by St Thomas Aquinas would then become a joke.
Bottomline: The Christian theology is not as simple as we all, Christians included, think to be. -
Hmm....Originally posted by summerain22:Yes, everyone is born with sin because of Adam. But, let's put it this way, even if it were not so, we would still have sin anyway because every human being sins. Even by the act of lying, whoever claims never to have told a lie before is already lying!