Sun He Yao Sun
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Yes i totally agree wit u ...Originally posted by qwerty24:Well yea I agree so. If chc is really so, I would have left the church too. If the church is functioning by brainwashing ppl, forcing ppl to buy cd and teaching the wrong doctrine of God and does all things for just the glory and fame of the pastor, I too ask God to close it down, if not let it shine brighter for Christ.
Finally in conclusion, I think the main reasons why some ppl detest HYS so much if becoz of the affiliation with the church etc etc. If not she would be just antoher singer. -
Yea It means "Working adult" I kinda find ppl ridiculous to think of something so absurd through a simple english. How the statistic is collected is thru the calculation of member's database of working adult (collected from all cgs). This was already mentioned during the building funds which sepreated the "working adult' and "Students". Its just like u picking up any piece of bone of the ground and think it has some prehistoric values. The english is simple and it has no other meaning. If you are the one compiling the statistic for everyone to see its quite irealistic to think that its has the "outer meaning" rite? WHy dun u try asking my pastor instead.
I am surprised u return and ask me tat question
. I thought u r the first one tat ask me about tat 53% in the first place ? U r the one tat keep bringing up the topic of 53% in the first place ? Wat is the question tat u want to ask regarding to tis 53% ?Hmmm Let's make a illustration. U have 10 bucks u have to pay $3 bucks for your meal, and u had a option of paying another $3 bucks for a magazine. Does that means U paying $3 bucks for the meal u'll definitely pay $3 for the magazine. Totally illogical rite? 10% tithe is a requirement if you decided faithfully to obey God. but the cd??? Its not a must to buy cd if you pay tithe even u can do that. U r assuming everyone does that in an ideal situation where they have no life they just live on tithe and cds. Well wake up. Hello.... knock knock..... r u alrite? And btw u had seems to avoid some questions leh. Yet to explain how she got into top asian and taiwan mtv and music chart.
Then how about the building and misc fees ? They r not compulsory right ? I am trying to say u guys will PAY anything to support anything related to your church. U guys r already prepared to pay $357 every month for the church ! U guys will probably don't mind paying another $180 for the CDs tat come 3 times for 2 years. And in my example, I say tat each member only need to buy 3 CDs of her to make a VERY BIG impact. Thus the cost is just a mere $54 per album she came up with. The pastor had already publicly pressure people to buy her CDs. These r first hand account, written in Straits TimesSomeone from her congregation in Singapore had just informed her that the weekend edition of Today had a Page 1 story in which some church members expressed uneasiness over City Harvest's support of her pop career.
U still insist u people never buy in a huge quantity of her albums ?
Her husband and church founder, Reverend Kong Hee, was described as giving updates of his wife's singing and promotional activities during church service.
One church member was quoted as complaining: 'Even before the name of God is glorified, the husband always praises her first and shows her video.'
The report also said there were suggestions that the church was being used to drum up votes for Ho at this Friday's MTV Asia Awards.
Then I ask u, swearing in the name of your God, u will answer these questions to the best of your knowledge. How much CDs have u bought for HYS ? To the best of your knowledge wat is the average number of album each people bought ? How much CD your cell group had bought ?
U can keep denying it if u want. U can keep saying there is no such happenings. The truth is out there.Hmmm so he only bought 5 and not 10??? I tot u think everyone buy 10s of cds. Now only 5 for mr poon. For this question. Hmmm u only managed to showed me one leh. Do u think in theory of probability Mr Poon can represent all of chc? And I did said there are ppl who bought but the numbers are not sufficient to alter any of the results. Try something more concrete leh. Kaoz, like u see a guy from NTU do u assume NTU is a boys institution? Ridiculous. Bring enuff prove first leh. Stop arguing thru these little loop holes. Try using more evidences and CONCRETE and SOLID prove. In fact now I tell u honestly yea most ppl perhaps I think bought cd out of support. But is it substantial enuff? That isn't that many to buy 10s of cd for 3 album striaght just for support. It is rare I can confidently say.
Did I ever say I think everyone bought 10 CDs ? I say there r peole from u church tat bought 10 CDs. Poon is already unhappy with HYS and yet he still bought 5. Wat do u think of those people who r more obsess with church than him ? I already show u 1 person. U want me to show u a hundred yah ? I already stated first hand account claims on people buying lot of her CDs, u still not satisfied yah ?
U want me to show u more proof ? u think it is a fair request to ask ? U also acknowledge tat there were people tat bought 10 CDs of her for 3 albums straight isn't it ? The lowest number a member bought is certainly greater than 1 for her album. Wat do u think is the average number the member of the church bought ?Hmmm Why he leave the church? Put yourselve in his shose would u leave the church? Out of shame and guilt or embaressment, any of the three element i think with such a big church u'll definitly leave without any forms of threat. Have u ever tot of this? I guess perhaps u had just dun wan to weaken ur arguement by quoting this. To be frank simply becoz I challenged u I noe for very very sure U have no SOLID evidence or any facts to support yourself. And I am very very confident of what you said is wrong which I understand with my own experience. Thru these debates u had been losing bouts and bouts and u been shifting around looking for loop holes etc etc. I think most ppl who read this can see. Picking only little insignificant things that can't prove much. Just as if you are so confident of what u said thru proving in the real "arena". You had nothign to lose if truth is on ur side. Most anti-chc ppl have common characteristic (i seen alot) They are affected by something or wat the church does through it may not be wrong, but that they disagree much. In fact most of them doesn't really enuff first hand encounter with the church itself but thru a second hand understanding ( in fact more than 90% of what they noe of the church are rumours and myth, for instance saying chc force ppl to pay tithe buy cds etc, Well I was nvr forced yet). Some their feelings are caused by the influence of peers. And just dislike becoz they think its the norms and trends and for the sake of doing so. I think perhaps in a court room you may prove more beneficial if u holds the truth. Than here arguing with no strong support for your words.
Why is he out of church ? It is because shame, guilt or embarrassment ? Maybe. But it can also meant tat he was forced into the apology, he saw the rotten nature of the church or he is victimised, hated and looked down upon from his church members after tat incident.
Wat is the challenge u pose to me ? To sue the church ? I tell u once I tell u twice. Wat basis is there for me to sue the church ? On wat charge ? I am not like u guys tat take legal action for anything. Now I also offer a challenge to u. If u think I am talking rubbish, then call police and sue me lah ! If u think other other people here r against the church, then sue them lah ! There are cases of people suing people for slander and win isn't it ? So sue us lah ! If u don't and cannot sue us, does it proves u r wrong ?
Your challenge is so silly and u treat as though tis is an important winning point. Tell u, tis is childish. Why do u tis notion, " if I don't sue, then I am in the wrong" ? Can only court prove u r wrong or right ? Is tat the only justice u see in the world ?
Hahaha... u really r an egoistic person aren't u ? Your perception of the world r really coloured toward your own stand. Who has been losing bouts after bouts of argument ? Up till now u can't even name me a female chinese singer who is 30+ when she start up her entertainment career. Your only argument is just continue living in self denial and deny all the facts tat were presented. Even after I present my evidence, u still ask for more and more evidence to the point of absurbidites.
Thru these debates u had been losing bouts and bouts and u been shifting around looking for loop holes etc etc.Hmmm 100000 cds for singapore and malaysia only ar? For Singapore for the first album btw is 30000 in print. By the time the 3rd albums comes due to the overwhelming results the record company had printed more. I heard once for the second album is 45000 - 60000. The thrid album definitelly is much more. It hadn't include overseas, this is just singaproe alone. That is assuming EVERYONE buys then we could get 78% as u said. Check the statistic again pls. Let's say its only 100000 and the total gross sales is 1.8 million. Hmmm I wonder how the company survive after paying the singer, retailer, frieght, copyrights, product etc etc + productions cost. Even if the company has many such Singers and record but.... this is pathetic. I remembered once I watch this taiwanese tv program. Singers who are top in Taiwan actually have records sales of near to a million. Even lesser it can never be 100000.
I can the below extract from the website below. It is from straits times. I get the figure from here.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/archives/00002017.htmlEither way, Ho, whose first album, Sun With Love, in 2002, sold more than 100,000 copies, said she does not stand a chance of winning the MTV award.
If u get sale more than 1 million, u will be like Jacky Cheung 'Wen Bie' already. Nowsaday due to piracy, album sales r going down. U don't believe me, show me the statistic tat says otherwise.Yet to explain how she got into top asian and taiwan mtv and music chart.
Show me some of those info to me first. I wanna read it myself first before I answer tis. -
Omg, u mean there are pirated copies of her albums?? Donno who will buy....Originally posted by stupidissmart:If u get sale more than 1 million, u will be like Jacky Cheung 'Wen Bie' already. Nowsaday due to piracy, album sales r going down. U don't believe me, show me the statistic tat says otherwise.
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CHC members...Originally posted by Bochupi:Omg, u mean there are pirated copies of her albums?? Donno who will buy.... 
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Piracy also mean download from the web
Me never bought any music CDs for the past 2 years due to downloading from web -
this thread ended?
Keep it going pple!! -
Oh yea man. He Yao Sun totally sucks. Sometimes i really wonder why she is so popular. No looks, voice so whiny, ok..so this is my perspective, well then, i quote from 8 days, reviewer of her album, voice WHINY! Also the church thingy. So yea, she sucks.
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if any of u can be what she is today...a singer. then by all means carry on talking bad behind ppl's back. If u cant .....best is to zip it. If a Christian chef cooks a meal...u say the food sucks, painted a picture..the painting sucks, do anything....also sucks. am i right to say that? need not to be a singer to receive such 'fame'?
regards. -
CHC always maintain that members are not pressured to buy hys albums and that the church do not use hard-selling methods to aid her cd. ok, let us see for ourself by the below instances..
1.During the period of her album launching, my cgl called me as asked,' how many cds you buying?'. he did not ask are you buying but how many? so it is obvious that people are buying more than one. when i ask why you want to know, he said the pastor want to know.
2.There was once a campaign to aid needly children. All you need to do to play a part is to buy her album( the more the better, since its for charity), and chc staff will send those album to the children home. there are of cause ppl who again buy more than one( afterall, its for the children isn't it?) during one service, the pastor reported that the children were delighted to receive her cds and were greatly blessed by her songs, there's even pictures as evidents. but my thoughts is, of cause those children are delighted, they will accept any presents, afterall, its free, but i believe they will be happier to receive other things like toys, books etc, it will be more useful anyway. but wait!!! why do those children living in the same children home need a CD each?? weird weird.. i doubt they have a cd player each. so in the campaign, all the children gained was a cd that they will prob. forget in a few weeks time, but hys's cd sale got a massive boost, in the name of charity..
3.during the period of her cd launching, you can see her promotion posters all over the church compound, her mtv, concert and variety show video clips and even advertisement on TVs all over the church. there will be people stationed at the lobby holding baskets of her cds, urging people to buy. and of course, the cgls.. for your convienence, they will call you up, helpfully arranging to get the cds for you. nothing wrong you may think, yes, nothing wrong, if we are talking about business. but in this case, the cgl's influence would have cause people who are reluctant or undecided to just buy to please him/her. (similar to new insurance agents trying to call up relatives and friends to sell policy, people who experienced will know its pressurising and often very hard to reject these agents)
4.during service, some time is given to show her mtv and other video clips, and the pastor will talk about her new album, urging people to support her etc. Once in a statement given by the CHC board of 'something', they clarified that the reason why her clips are shown during service is because hyw is a well-loved and respected leader of the church, the members will want to know updates about her.. ok, fair enough.... but why only during her album promotion period? what is the purpose?
What good does it do to God's work by buying her cd?
Hys's singing career is often stressed to be doing God's work. to use secular music to reach out to non-christians, therefore members are urged to support her and buy her cd... think about it, as christians, chc members buying her cd... what good does it do? so what if she sells 20k albums in singapore? does that help in evangelising? ultimately, its christians who are buying up her cds, so what's the point?
Hys doing God's work?
Rom 12.2
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is. (NLT)
2 Cor 10:3-5
We are human, but we don't wage war with human plans and methods. We use God's mighty weapons, not mere worldly weapons, to knock down the Devil's strongholds. With these weapons we break down every proud argument that keeps people from knowing God. With these weapons we conquer their rebellious ideas, and we teach them to obey Christ.(NLT)
So.. is God suddenly so desperate that he now uses secular music to win souls into his kingdom? CHC people argued that she's not the only one, where are others too. well these verses apply to those people as well.
Tithing
I know its irrelevant, but since it was mentioned in previous postings, let me share my two cent worth.
1.Tithing is biblical, it is 10 percent of your income, afterall, the word tithe means 1/10. Most, if not all churches practice tithing. Members are encouraged and should be encouraged to tithe.
2.However, tithing is not a must. CHC never force people to tithe, but pressure. definately. why?
A-if you started tithing and suddenly for one mth you did not tithe, your cgl will talk to you or call you and ask,' have you given your tithe?'( obviously he know you didn't, if not why he won't ask you anyway)
B-I once gave half my tithe to a non-chc christian mission organisation. my cgl knowing that my income is stable and should be similar to previous month, rang and asked me if i had withheld my tithe. i said i gave to another org and he replied that its good to give to other christian org, but the tithe must be in the house of God, i must tithe to chc. that's so self-centred. as if chc is the only church, as if the centre-focus of God is chc. after arguing 'but this but that.. he said everything needs money, the building, nice cosy environment etc... so much for total dependency on God.
C-during chc service, everyone receives an offering envelope. to give tithe, you write down your particular and amount you tithe, reason? so that you can be issued a receipt. why? so that you know that the church has received your tithe. sounds innocent? look at point A and B. -
[quote]Originally posted by prso:
[b]CHC always maintain that members are not pressured to buy hys albums and that the church do not use hard-selling methods to aid her cd. ok, let us see for ourself by the below instances..
nice, good one even idiot like me can understand what you writing.
very detail. Like to read more and know more please. I like the way you write.
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hmmm.. tink abt it this way... will you support your friens by buying their things if they r opening a business now.. it the same thing here.. chc members are juz trying to support.. which i tink it very normal.. nobody can force u to do anitin if your realli dun feel lik doing it...
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Maybe not force but coerce?
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since when tithing wasn't a must... if it isn't a must, why would God tell us to give 1/10 back? that itself is a contradiction. its like... God tell us not to murder. but its alright, it isn't a "must" to obey.. if you think it isn't a must... pls read book malachi.
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In Christianity, nothing is a must. To treat tithing as a rule or law is to miss the point, and according to Paul it ranks highest on alienating your relationship with God.
If every month you tithe 'cos of guilt and peer/church pressure, then I suggest you don't tithe, for such tithing has lost its meaning. -
hi dd,Originally posted by dumbdumb!:since when tithing wasn't a must... if it isn't a must, why would God tell us to give 1/10 back? that itself is a contradiction. its like... God tell us not to murder. but its alright, it isn't a "must" to obey.. if you think it isn't a must... pls read book malachi.
malachi 3:8-9
"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me!"But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?'"You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me.
So, as in malachi which i was told to read, i'll be cursed if i don't tithe? oh my God, my dear Jesus died for nothing! but hey.. look at this, Galatians 3:13 'But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree'.
Oh, how i love the Lord!
The issue of tithing is a issue of the Law of Moses and the old covenant vs the new covenant; legal requirement vs out of love.
2 Cor 3:9 says
If the old covenant, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new covenant, which makes us right with God!
Thank God we no longer live by the old covenant but in the new, which is all about the heart, in which Christ dwells. If we are to say that tithing is a must, it means i'll give out of compulsion, out of intimidation, out of fear of the consequence it may bring. Again, my Jesus died for nothing! And i do not believe God will bless this kind of giving, and neither does He wants or need it. Some pastors either do not understand the new covenant or, choose to ignore the glorious truth and use some old testament verses as a fund-raising tool.
If your church suggest that tithing is a must, i suggest you leave. -
nothing is a must in the bible as it seems. God laid down the commandments and it is up to you to obey. The only MUST is that sin MUST be punished and thats why Jesus MUST die and rose again for our salvation.Originally posted by prso:hi dd,
malachi 3:8-9
"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me!"But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?'"You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me.
So, as in malachi which i was told to read, i'll be cursed if i don't tithe? oh my God, my dear Jesus died for nothing! but hey.. look at this, Galatians 3:13 'But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree'.
Oh, how i love the Lord!
The issue of tithing is a issue of the Law of Moses and the old covenant vs the new covenant; legal requirement vs out of love.
2 Cor 3:9 says
If the old covenant, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new covenant, which makes us right with God!
Thank God we no longer live by the old covenant but in the new, which is all about the heart, in which Christ dwells. If we are to say that tithing is a must, it means i'll give out of compulsion, out of intimidation, out of fear of the consequence it may bring. Again, my Jesus died for nothing! And i do not believe God will bless this kind of giving, and neither does He wants or need it. Some pastors either do not understand the new covenant or, choose to ignore the glorious truth and use some old testament verses as a fund-raising tool.
If your church suggest that tithing is a must, i suggest you leave.
Christianity doesnt function on the basis of merits because none of us are able to score points. Tithings and other Christian duties as it seems are voluntary and there is a purpose behind it all. If you do everything in fear.....then you are not doing it God's way. -
i just feel that if u leave the church juz because the bible did mention its a must to tithe, its just a weak excuse to run away.. just a feeling. it isn't biblically wrong. i mean, if u tithe u get blessings in return. dun see wats the problem there.
besides there isn't a perfect church.. bound to have some screw ups here and there.. but trust me on this... chc isn't the screwiest church i've seen.
besides.. most ppl who critisize Sun the most are not christians, and mostly they have a grudge against christianity or her link to christianity.. -
some ppl join a church for girls, for the building, the preacher's message and because that church functions the manner he/she wants it to.
Remember, the Church is Jesus Christ's...not yours. -
yes, it is an weak excuse to run away if the bible did mention that its a MUST to tithe, however, that's not the case( at least to the best of my knowledge). so my suggestion to leave is based on the knowledge that it is biblically NOT a must. so its a little misunderstanding hereOriginally posted by dumbdumb!:i just feel that if u leave the church juz because the bible did mention its a must to tithe, its just a weak excuse to run away.. just a feeling. it isn't biblically wrong. i mean, if u tithe u get blessings in return. dun see wats the problem there.
my stand
Tithing is biblical, believers are encouraged to tithe out of love and obdience.
Tithing is not a must, because we live in the new covenant.
Tithing must not be recorded, no one except God shall hav access to how much you tithe, because its a private matter between the giver and God.
lastly, tithing is a offering. -
well said..glad tt u know ur stuffs.Originally posted by prso:yes, it is an weak excuse to run away if the bible did mention that its a MUST to tithe, however, that's not the case( at least to the best of my knowledge). so my suggestion to leave is based on the knowledge that it is biblically NOT a must. so its a little misunderstanding here
my stand
Tithing is biblical, believers are encouraged to tithe out of love and obdience.
Tithing is not a must, because we live in the new covenant.
Tithing must not be recorded, no one except God shall hav access to how much you tithe, because its a private matter between the giver and God.
lastly, tithing is a offering.
a passage to share...not pertaining to this thread
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " -
i mean.. i dun like chinese songs myself. and i hv a christian friend who is into the sound business. he knows that her voice needs more training cuz its still weak., compare this critisizm and most of the critisizms here. which sounds fairer?
as i mentioned. if you want to critisize.. critisize honestly and fairly.. hell.. most of the ppl here ain't into sound professionally, yet critisize like they know balls about sound business.
and no. i don't buy her album either, and i do not let other ppl push me into buying them, instead i just tell them politely that i do not wish to buy because i do not appreciate her style of music and plus i suck at chinese, and its a waste of cash on my part to buy. and i dun buy that "if you buy, God will bless you.." bit. God also want me to use my brain and spend wisely. but seldom meet these kind of case.. most ppl who use this sentence are young christian who dunno what they are talking about.. so cannot blame God, cannot blame the church. its not really a big deal. -
hmm i think i get your driff about tithing.. its not legalism.. thats what you mean. tithing, or doing anything for God shouldn't be the result of legalism. as in.. rules rules rules.. thats religion.. not relationship.. yea.. its a misunderstanding pai seh
but technically.. its still a must.. since it pisses God a little hah -
i agree that many criticism of her is really unfair. personally, i feel that her songs are alright, listenable, and as a professional artiste, its inevitable to have a fake image( act cute etc). I also think that there's nothing wrong with church members buyng her cd, supporting her and even vote for her, for these people are her fans.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i mean.. i dun like chinese songs myself. and i hv a christian friend who is into the sound business. he knows that her voice needs more training cuz its still weak., compare this critisizm and most of the critisizms here. which sounds fairer?
as i mentioned. if you want to critisize.. critisize honestly and fairly.. hell.. most of the ppl here ain't into sound professionally, yet critisize like they know balls about sound business.
and no. i don't buy her album either, and i do not let other ppl push me into buying them, instead i just tell them politely that i do not wish to buy because i do not appreciate her style of music and plus i suck at chinese, and its a waste of cash on my part to buy. and i dun buy that "if you buy, God will bless you.." bit. God also want me to use my brain and spend wisely. but seldom meet these kind of case.. most ppl who use this sentence are young christian who dunno what they are talking about.. so cannot blame God, cannot blame the church. its not really a big deal.
The things i don't agree, however is things were done, to get members to buy her cds, not forcefully, but pressure, surely there is. People can argue its not pressure, but i felt it, so its pressure.( read my previous post) -
which artiste dun act cute? look at jolin tsai and all.....they use such things to gain fame mah. haha
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Jolin how old only? I think the point made was Sun is no longer that young, hence she should project a more mature image. What gain fame? Is fame on her agenda too?
If her voice is really blessed by God, she does not need to act or dress to attract people one.
I think if she don't act cute and dress properly, less people will criticize her, don't you all agree? So why must she do all the extra thing to invite criticism? She's not trying to be an idol like other singers. People should be drawn to the content of her songs through her angelous voice.