F.U.C.K National Service
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i like this. and ur love for our country.Originally posted by laurence82:I heard a story once about a SAF colonel addressing a parade. "I hate SAF, but I love my country" . If you hate SAF, do something about it. NS is a totally different matter altogether. Whatever problems we have here on NS, the Swiss, Israelis, Swedes, Taiwanese and Koreans are also having the same problems.
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The colonel openly declared that he hate SAF ... so he got henta taki or not?
Or they promote him 'cos of his courage and honesty?
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NeonTetra, Weidev... I will go to war with you anydayOriginally posted by NeonTetra:to all who are loyal to Singapore. This color is for you...
"Salute" -
one of the rare times i see an intellectual discussion in Bar. Ok while we as citizens of singapore should serve NS, our country on the other hand does owe a debt to those who have died or become crippled in the course of serving the nation. It seems like the compensation paid out to the unfortunate victims are often paltry, and the govt seems to just try to hush hush the case up, and brush over everything like nothing;s ever happened. Victim's families are under compensated, which i think is very un fair. A fair number of my fellow NSFs, who during training, have picked up injuries serious enough to downgrade, and which have left permanant lingering side-effects, are oft view with suspicion that we are faking our injuries, or making them out to be more severe than they seem, to get a "good" life. I think that is inherently unfair, and the we do not owe our country one-way, but our country and the SAF also owes us their honour at pledging to take care of us, failing which, they owe us their honour at at least according us fair and proper treatment, both medical, and in attitude. Its the least they can do after their miserable failure in keeping their honour.
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Dont even know whether the story is true, but it is the idea behind the speech. We all love Singapore, at the same time dislike PAP, SAF.....Originally posted by Icemoon:The colonel openly declared that he hate SAF ... so he got henta taki or not?
Or they promote him 'cos of his courage and honesty? -
i feel that is the person u work with......... in the army just a stripe or a crab more than u they can ask u to do work liao and also u do not have the right to question them....imagine if ur superior is ur buddy then do all teh shit together u will not feel that bad right...
haiz.... SAF one thing is that small small thing charge here charge there ....when we help SAF save money do they know....
like i always switch off lights and water when not in use throw litter in the bin....then got one day i late by 5 mins get extra SIANZ....... -
ok for all my misgivings about Singapore n SAF and the govt, this is where i will still disagree with you. I will fight, even though to be honest, ultimately, for all who fight, death is only certain for we are too small, too bigotted in our warfare to win. We are more interested in showcasing our technology, how smart we are so on and so forth. Once during a NE seminar, i put forth a question to the SAF officer addressing us. He was talking about how the SAF trains their officers to think that victory is certain, so I put it to him: "The Israelis commanders had the same attitude of 'victory is certain' resulting in them being grossly unprepared for the Arab onslaught during the Yom Kipper war, especially at Golan Heights. Only the tenacity of their ground troops, who fought to their deaths, as a result of the commander's complacency, prevented the Arabs from over-running Golan Heights, and ensured the survival of Israel. Now aren't we training our commanders to fight under a dangerous mindset?"Originally posted by Mel Carter:If there is a war, I will be on my way to the hawaii beach enjoying myself for a tan and watch how you people fight ... Ok fight like how you been train for and I will be watching how you people lose . Shooting at targets and shooting at real people are totally different . You pause for one second in front of the enemy and you are worm food ...
His reply? Oh we, mummble mummble, because we are small... mummble mummble... and then his voice trailed off.... really conficence inspiring... I know for sure if we ever fight a war, we're doomed. But, I'll fight. Nvm the dying. -
Originally posted by weidev:Many of you use the reason "we're very lucky compared to other countries, hence we shouldn't complain" ... which I felt was a red herring and doesn't address the problem.
well... there ARE alot of countries who are inferior to us... in a war against Malaysia... i would say we have a 75% chance that we will win...
This is another false dilemma. We can still have a *shorter* national service and still produce citizens who can defend themselves and trained for war. Moreover, why issit so important that every singaporean (at least the males) have to be trained for war?
a shorter NS will result in fewer experience... experience is a great deal in a real WAR... imagin a soldier with 5 years of experience handling a gun compared to one who has onli 1 year...
Your analogy is no good, even misleading, since
1.the soldiers defending Singapore then were not even singaporeans.
2. our professional army can still be trained *professionally* in jungle warfare.
well firstly, the soldiers were nt even singaporeans... do u think u will fight for a country where u were nt born in? mabe yes... but nt full-heartedly... the soldiers of Malayan at that time... were juz HOLDING out time... they were retreating and retreating... and most of the operations stop cos they were betrayed! Secondly, there WERE singaporeans in the army... but the numbers compared to Malayan soldiers were much smaller... again... these ppl are usually the first one to die... cos they were fighting for their country as well as their loved ones... u think it is very easy to be trained in jungle warfare? professionally somemore within the period of less than 21/2 years? maybe it is possible... but wat bout other aspects?
Your example using China is laughable. You think IF China really attack us, we can still WIN ah? Wah leow .... I dunno you have such high confidence in our military (regulars + NSFs) leh ...
if China attack us... seriously i will give us a 50% chance of winning... u look down on our military too much... our military are much better compared to China...
(SORRY FOR USING CAPS LOCK)
I DONT BELEIVE SINGAPORE HAS 1% CHANCE OF WINNING. CHINA IS A SUPERPOWER WITH NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY I DONT KNOW HOW YOU CAME TO THE CONCLUSION OF 50%. ESPECIALLY IF U.S. IS SCARED AND UNSURE ABOUT THE CHINA MILITARY MIGHT.
HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT SINGAPORE MILITARY IS BETTER? YOU DO REALISE THAT CHINA HAS WON MANY WARS, THEY DID WRITE A FAMOUS BOOK ON IT(FORGOT NAME) AND I DONT THINK THEY WILL ATTACK SINGAPORE EITHER, THEIR HISTORY SHOWS THAT THEY HAVE NEVER INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY UNLESS PROVOKED FOR EXAMPLE WHEN THEY ATTACKED INDIA DUE TO HIMLAYIAN MOUNTAIN DISPUTE.
So? What's it about handing over nuclear weapons? You've not shown conclusively that US will most likely sit back and let an invasion take place. On the contrary, I give you example of Yugoslavia, Desert Storm '91 etc ...
y US would nt attack North Korea is cos there is nothing there that they wan... y don they attack even though North Korea still own nuclear weapons... y do they attck Iraq even though United Nations ask them nt to? cos of the resources...
OK HERES THE THING, THEY DID NOT SAY THEY WOULD NOT ATTACK NORTH KOREA.
NORTH KOREA DOESNT OWN ANY NUCLEAR ARSENAL, US HAS ALREADY SAID THAT ONE KEY INGREDIENT WILL TAKE DUNNO 10 YEARS OR 40 YEAR TO DEVELOP/PROCESS(NOT TOO CLEAR MYSELF). US DOESNT WANT THEM TO DEVELOP THE TECHNOLOGY.
MOREOVER NORTH KOREA IS A COMMUNIST AND HAS STRATEGIC VALUE. YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AT TAIWAN AND PHILLIPINES FOR EXAMPLE OR EVEN LOOK AT SINGAPORE.
You think with US and other foreign interests in Singapore they'll not gain a single thing by helping us?
let's faced it... if there is a threat of war... US citizens will be out of this counrty before u even realise it...
Who says our fully equipped professional army don't have any trained soldiers? I find your view of things here very laughable.
u juz said tat u wan the training period to be shorter... more n jungle warfare... u think there is sufficient time to train the soldiers to equip other things? i find ur view more laughable...
You gave incredible proposition mah, so this discussion is without any rein liao ... anyway your USA attacking us already make them condemned forever also .. haha
y is being attacked by US condemned? let's faced it... nt all the countries are for US... whereas terroists are condemned in most of the countries... -
very messy replies above...
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so many learnt to drink smoke and gamble inside... saw a lot of friends who don't smoke pick it up inside, or those who have quit start again. turn for better?Originally posted by laurence82:Thinking about NS. I seen my friends turned for better.
turn for the worse is more like it. -
the army didn't teach them to smoke or gamble. these habits were brought in by others when they were enlisted and those without self-discipline is sure to succumb...Originally posted by HENG@:so many learnt to drink smoke and gamble inside... saw a lot of friends who don't smoke pick it up inside, or those who have quit start again. turn for better?
turn for the worse is more like it. -
Well, lucky many turned for better among my friends. But sadly, yes, tehre are many who turned for worse. Thats why those who know me, knew that this year is a bad year for me. This is the year I ORD. Like many, we miss our army days....
But this is not the sad point. Those who saw what I wrote in the Kopitiam Forum know what I meant. Seen friends mixed with those with bad influence, smoke, turned hostile, going on a self destruct path.......
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yah but its still something u are exposed to, which u wouldn't if u didn't enter the army, because u can choose to disassociate with such people outside, but u can't avoid them since they will be your buddies in e army. and unless u hate smoking and smokers the way i fanatically do(if guns were legal i'd be gunning down most smokers), its very easy to succumb to.Originally posted by dead_clone:the army didn't teach them to smoke or gamble. these habits were brought in by others when they were enlisted and those without self-discipline is sure to succumb... -
next year will be a good year for me. its the year i finish my NS. hooray. just becos its a necessity desn't mean its pleasant. i sure as hell ain't gonna miss my lousy, useless officers who, for all their fancy officer pay, only know how to throw their own work to me to do. The army dun have to pay a Dy-S3 to hand his work(assigned by the S3) to the proj officer n they dun have to pay the proj officer to pass it to me. the S3 can just hand it to me and SAF saves the salary of 2 useless bums.Originally posted by laurence82:this year is a bad year for me. This is the year I ORD. Like many, we miss our army days.... -
Agree with you......totallyOriginally posted by HENG@:next year will be a good year for me. its the year i finish my NS. hooray. just becos its a necessity desn't mean its pleasant. i sure as hell ain't gonna miss my lousy, useless officers who, for all their fancy officer pay, only know how to throw their own work to me to do. The army dun have to pay a Dy-S3 to hand his work(assigned by the S3) to the proj officer n they dun have to pay the proj officer to pass it to me. the S3 can just hand it to me and SAF saves the salary of 2 useless bums. -
Oh, wonderful.
Another NS hater.
What you get from NS, quite simply, is either
A) basic combat training
b) basic clerk training.
That is, if you didn't go for a number of courses, such as ranger, commando and such.
Yes, you can choose to rot in NS, slack off. Or you can choose to avail yourself of the facilities there. Learn something in there. Heard of the E-prep? You can actually learn something useful while "rotting" away in NS.
In any case, you will have learnt how to survive in a office, or god forbid, survive in combat, which i doubt you can.
Let me give you a bit of history. In WWII, Hitler did something called the Holocaust. I need not go into details, but it involved the killing of of people he considered undesirable. Why? Not because of education, sex, material goods, but their RELIGION.
How would you feel if you were rounded up and stuck into a camp just because of your belief? Now, everybody knows that.
But does everybody know that before "kristallnacht", Hitler initiated a arms control act, which required all privately owned weapons to be registered to "keep track" of them? And the same lists were used to confiscate the weapons.
Now, ask yourself. Would the Jews have died in such ... horrendous numbers if they had a rifle or pistol for every 4 or 5 able-bodied men? No.
If they had been organised into a armed forces or even militia, could they have resisted the Wehrmacht and perhaps even survived to evacuate their dependents? YES.
The point is this.
A armed human is a citizen.
A unarmed human is a subject.
Which would you rather be? -
ooo... im sure u'd just lurrrrrve for singapore to be like american society, with the risk of our children being gunned down in school, or us being gunned down during work. well done SOLDIEROriginally posted by Johnston:The point is this.
A armed human is a citizen.
A unarmed human is a subject.
Which would you rather be? -
i didn't think he meant "armed citizen" though...Originally posted by HENG@:ooo... im sure u'd just lurrrrrve for singapore to be like american society, with the risk of our children being gunned down in school, or us being gunned down during work. well done SOLDIER
u might have misinterpreted... -
*hmph*Originally posted by HENG@:ooo... im sure u'd just lurrrrrve for singapore to be like american society, with the risk of our children being gunned down in school, or us being gunned down during work. well done SOLDIER
What's the difference between a knifing and a shooting?
None, except that one is done with a bladed weapon, and the other is done with a firearm.
As it is, humans are by nature violent.
The risk is always there. Need i remind you that kids have fought, and on occasion, killed their classmates?
You might think this way. But one fine day, if singapore is invaded by external enemies, you will know the difference between a citizen, and a subject.
Let's examine singapore history. Do you think those males rounded up by the Kempeitai would have gone willingly and quietly to their deaths? At the end, tied to the firing post, did they wish for a rifle?
Would they, knowing what was in store for them if they were taken away, and the things in store for their family, would they have shot back at the japanese?
Let's say that one of your classmates/workmates turns violent with a knife. And takes someone hostage. Pray tell, do the police turn up with batons, or do they come with firearms to subdue the assailant?
Answer this fundamental question. If knives and non-lethal weapons are all that are needed to keep a population safe, why then are the police and soldiers armed with FIREARMS?
Or perhaps you'd prefer stun guns or pepper spray, against a pistol. Champion. -
I oso ORD next yr too! Yay...Originally posted by HENG@:next year will be a good year for me. its the year i finish my NS. hooray. just becos its a necessity desn't mean its pleasant. i sure as hell ain't gonna miss my lousy, useless officers who, for all their fancy officer pay, only know how to throw their own work to me to do. The army dun have to pay a Dy-S3 to hand his work(assigned by the S3) to the proj officer n they dun have to pay the proj officer to pass it to me. the S3 can just hand it to me and SAF saves the salary of 2 useless bums.
My view of NS: Some hate it, some like it... For me I dun care much... BUT we do change during dis time, whether U like it or not... But I muz sae, I do have to thank NS for wat it gives me...
It gave me an UP CLOSE & PERSONAL of how government works... its exactly da same as any big companies U see in da world. Da government may boast of how good da tech is, how advance our weapons r, how united or watsoever, but da actual interior structure of such a power is no diff from da real world.
No matter where we r posted after basic training, be it guards, armor, clerk, recce (spelling?), provost, police, scdf, anything they have, when in da end when war REALLY reaches us (I doubt much...), we ALL (men & women, young & old alike) WILL pick up a rifle & fight back! Unless U not patriotic...
So even if our lives in NS is crappy enuf, we r equipped wif da knowledge to deal wif da outside world when we finish serving it. U may not noe it, but U have it...
& even if it may seems we r wasting our time in NS when da females r climbing da corporate ladder, when da time really comes, we FIGHT to protect. & men in general stands a betta chance in fighting battles on da field than women... (sorry to sae but its da sad truth, gals...)
So my point is... hate it, but thank it for U will be taught & thus be well prepared for da REAL world... (No war pls... I HATE wars...) -
ok. i wish for a gun now. Then I'd hunt you down and kill you. i bet u'd enjoy it.Originally posted by Johnston:*hmph*
What's the difference between a knifing and a shooting?
None, except that one is done with a bladed weapon, and the other is done with a firearm.
As it is, humans are by nature violent.
The risk is always there. Need i remind you that kids have fought, and on occasion, killed their classmates?
You might think this way. But one fine day, if singapore is invaded by external enemies, you will know the difference between a citizen, and a subject.
Let's examine singapore history. Do you think those males rounded up by the Kempeitai would have gone willingly and quietly to their deaths? At the end, tied to the firing post, did they wish for a rifle?
Would they, knowing what was in store for them if they were taken away, and the things in store for their family, would they have shot back at the japanese?
Let's say that one of your classmates/workmates turns violent with a knife. And takes someone hostage. Pray tell, do the police turn up with batons, or do they come with firearms to subdue the assailant?
Answer this fundamental question. If knives and non-lethal weapons are all that are needed to keep a population safe, why then are the police and soldiers armed with FIREARMS?
Or perhaps you'd prefer stun guns or pepper spray, against a pistol. Champion.
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I think wishing for a rifle during that last moment does not tell us anything, other than the hatred for the aggressors and the instinct to protect yourself. But the very same feeling is incited, as it is human nature, even when you're a pacifist and hardcore supporter of arms control. Is this contradictory? No.Originally posted by Johnston:Let's examine singapore history. Do you think those males rounded up by the Kempeitai would have gone willingly and quietly to their deaths? At the end, tied to the firing post, did they wish for a rifle?
Would they, knowing what was in store for them if they were taken away, and the things in store for their family, would they have shot back at the japanese?
Does owning a rifle change anything, other than killing a few more Japanese? If anything, it will only escalate the bloodbath. If you know the history, the Japanese MASSACRED unarmed people/civilians openly 'cos of the violent resistance faced! They even mutilated the bodies of soldiers! An account is told of bodies (think Indian soldiers?) hanging on trees along Bukit Timah Road, near the present Ngee Ann Poly. The result of the Bukit Timah battle. And the Alexandra Hospital Massacre was initiated by what? I don't think I need to go on.
The Kempeitai rounded up many groups of people, and one of them is the milita or soldiers from SVC. Imagine if more people were SVC and they told the truth. All die lor.
I think if the males are combat trained, as in the case now, then the aggressors have no qualms about shooting into the civilian crowd, to defend themselves. ALL males are automatically suspect, since they have the capability to fight back. -
i think policemen would have a much harder time if civilians were armed with guns. don't get me wrong. i actually love guns, im a gun nut, but i guess... loving guns dun mean i love seeing people die by the gun.
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Are you saying that since we cannot outlaw penknives and choppers, we should not outlaw pistols also?Originally posted by Johnston:What's the difference between a knifing and a shooting?
None, except that one is done with a bladed weapon, and the other is done with a firearm.
As it is, humans are by nature violent.
The risk is always there. Need i remind you that kids have fought, and on occasion, killed their classmates?
I think you miss the point. No-one is saying we're peaceful people without firearms, but clearly the use of firearms escalate the risk? A knifing works on contact and a shooting works on projectile.
Interesting observation on kids fighting. But have you come across a kid so strong and skillful that he can kill and wound many people on knifing alone?
But surely you heard of kids firing their guns to wound and kill many people?
You like to argue by emotion. So I shall counterargue. Imagine you're the poor chap who got shot in the face in JB. At the very moment with the pistol on your face, would you rather he has a knife? Heh.
Or if you're a victim of the sniper attack in Washington. How would you feel? Betcha will think "if only he has a knife instead of his rifle" ... -
Actually... policemen on patrol r oredi having a HARD time EVEN citizens r unarmed... imagining having to listen to their complaints... some citizens even noe da police laws & used it against them... U noe... singaporean citizens... >___<Originally posted by HENG@:i think policemen would have a much harder time if civilians were armed with guns. don't get me wrong. i actually love guns, im a gun nut, but i guess... loving guns dun mean i love seeing people die by the gun.