Honda Civic 2006
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i give to a limited extent.Originally posted by HENG@:The fact is, u currently have to give credit to the contis for having taken a huge step in design, and coming out ahead of the japs at the moment.
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u compare MRS, with M sports cars? u must be kidding.Originally posted by tiggersgd:1. can you compare a S2000, MRS2, Z350, RX8, WRX STi, IS250/300, with an M3 (and typically all other M series or classes), Z classes from the BMW, CLK, CLS, SLK, porsche variants, lotus, ferrari, lambo and many more?
specs already different.
and with regards to honda, their engineers don't believe in super charged cars. all honda makes are NA even for their S2000 and integra's.
here, let me put to you, some small examples of sort of cars should be compared with what:
S2000, Porsche Boxster, Z4, 350Z
don't tell me cannot. The 3 cars are all pretty evenly matched.
RX8, WRX STi, EVO, can definately be compared with M3s and the like. The comparism is often made in car mags here, esp for the EVO n WRX, whose 4wd more than offsets the bhp deficit. Of course, as we all know, the EVO and WRX are often officially under-declared on bhp, so the deficit isn't even that small. The comparism is definately more than fair.
The fact is, Japs cars ARE comparable against contis, and more than fair to do so. The point here is that, they are NOT the current field leaders, because Europeans have made a bigger leap in the last 5 years. Next 5 years, who knows who will lead again? May be the japs again, may be the Europeans still, or gawd forbid, even the Americans *shock!!!* or Koreans! *horror!!!!*
u know i only said that they don't lead the field. That doesn't mean they're not quality cars. there is a distinct difference in the 2, which is a distinction i think u will have to to make, because i get the impression u think im slamming jap cars. I'm making a frank observation that the japs currently do not lead the field, although they are pretty much capable of challenging the leaders. That does not imply that their products are inferior in quality in any way. Personally I think there is a lot to compare, as it is very interesting technologically how different people with different design cultures come up with solutions that are very similiar in nature. Of course the diffusion of design talent internationally means that this sort of distinction is now less noticable. But with the existance of an overall company culture, there will still be some colouring in design philosophies.Originally posted by tiggersgd:2. if its harsh truth, then so be it. jap car owners know that they are only getting jap quality cars. it can never be compared with a conti. try disputing that with any jap or conti owners and most likely you get an answer of "what is there to compare?" etc.
as to leading the field, i believe u will have to clear it with n0x. only he/she can reply to you on what leading the field means.
then again, civic 8th gen is already a notch up from its predecessor, if not notches up. go read from both ends of the world's car reviews and you'll find out...gd n bad of this car.
Of course, this could be just me, because as an engineer-to-be, I do find that such comparisms are very interesting, and very telling. It even helps to forecast future automotive trends, so it definately bears watching for me.
My final stand is, I'm not saying the 8th Gen civic is a bad car. I'm just pointing out that its not a leader in its field. -
then u have to blame the japs for stagnanting design-wise.Originally posted by tiggersgd:i give to a limited extent. 
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okie guys.. my bad for putting out ambigious statements tt caused so much hoo haa
firstly heng was right.. i did miss out the conti side... i was comparing 06'civic FD (aka the only version tt came here less the hybrid) with jap cars... so let me list out civic's competitiors.. sunny, latio, syphy, impreza, altis, vios, lancer, mazda 3, liana.. indeed within the "jap realm" it leads.. so sorry guys i am myopic on my part...
so after seeing all ur comments i went to do some reading up on conti brands(shall we give korean brands a miss.. haha no offence to kia/hyundai owners)
conti has lotsa cars with enigne in this capacity range but i shall focus on family oreintated cars.. tt means 147/cooper/beelte/golf and the likes are out.. so is bmw/audi/merc..
so we are left with optra, C4, focus, astra,307,megane, octavia...these are cars available frm authorised dealers and not form PI.. civic i think oust them.. tt is until u want to consider the A4 1.8 turbo which i think is quite unfair... cos in the first place they are targeted at diff grps of pple -
family orientated cars means 147, Golf are out? are u kidding???Originally posted by n0x:okie guys.. my bad for putting out ambigious statements tt caused so much hoo haa
firstly heng was right.. i did miss out the conti side... i was comparing 06'civic FD (aka the only version tt came here less the hybrid) with jap cars... so let me list out civic's competitiors.. sunny, latio, syphy, impreza, altis, vios, lancer, mazda 3, liana.. indeed within the "jap realm" it leads.. so sorry guys i am myopic on my part...
so after seeing all ur comments i went to do some reading up on conti brands(shall we give korean brands a miss.. haha no offence to kia/hyundai owners)
conti has lotsa cars with enigne in this capacity range but i shall focus on family oreintated cars.. tt means 147/cooper/beelte/golf and the likes are out.. so is bmw/audi/merc..
so we are left with optra, C4, focus, astra,307,megane, octavia...these are cars available frm authorised dealers and not form PI.. civic i think oust them.. tt is until u want to consider the A4 1.8 turbo which i think is quite unfair... cos in the first place they are targeted at diff grps of pple
dun exclude the cars in the field just because they're better. And the Focus, Astra, Megane can all take on the civic anyday. Comparing the to be launched soon 2007 top spec Civic Type R to the VXR, up-coming Focus RS (and even the current ST), the Golf GTi, the Megane 225 Sport etc, they would all beat the CTR.
the civic doesn't come close to ousting them. -
well to me 147 and golf dun qualify as a family car.. maybe ur opinions differ... and the cars u mentioned... focus rs and stuff.. it like i am comparing with the 1.6 ts then suddenly u mentioned the sti.. and my civic i mean the local civicOriginally posted by HENG@:family orientated cars means 147, Golf are out? are u kidding???
dun exclude the cars in the field just because they're better. And the Focus, Astra, Megane can all take on the civic anyday. Comparing the to be launched soon 2007 top spec Civic Type R to the VXR, up-coming Focus RS (and even the current ST), the Golf GTi, the Megane 225 Sport etc, they would all beat the CTR.
the civic doesn't come close to ousting them.
yesh the normal focus astra megane can take on civic anyday.. but throw in japanese reliability, pple's tendency to buy what his neighbour buysand consumer confidence and tt's where they take the front...
anyways i think our criteria for comparison is kinda blured, and tt's the reason it led to all these discrepancies... so my disclaimer for my intial most statement where i said civic lead the field wld be : 1 FD civic only 2 sg jap family saloon in sg through authorised dealers only..
and i think it will suffice cos MOST (not all) of the time when pple consider cars.. it is juz within the jap realm.. -
if the golf and 147 dun qualify, neither does the Civic. The golf and 147 can sit 5 as comfortably as the civic can, they all have similiar boot space, and there are 1.6l golfs and 1.6l 147s. there are even 1.4l golfs, and the civic has 1.4l also. the golf and 147 have 5 door n 3 door versions, just as the civic does. so i don't see on what grounds do u disqualify the 147 and Golf.Originally posted by n0x:well to me 147 and golf dun qualify as a family car.. maybe ur opinions differ... and the cars u mentioned... focus rs and stuff.. it like i am comparing with the 1.6 ts then suddenly u mentioned the sti.. and my civic i mean the local civic
yesh the normal focus astra megane can take on civic anyday.. but throw in japanese reliability, pple's tendency to buy what his neighbour buysand consumer confidence and tt's where they take the front...
anyways i think our criteria for comparison is kinda blured, and tt's the reason it led to all these discrepancies... so my disclaimer for my intial most statement where i said civic lead the field wld be : 1 FD civic only 2 sg jap family saloon in sg through authorised dealers only..
and i think it will suffice cos MOST (not all) of the time when pple consider cars.. it is juz within the jap realm..
i think u're comparing based on singapore's consumer preference, while im comparing purely on spec. Reliability-wise, conti cars are on par with japs. your saying they take the front just does not seem justified. in fact it seems very forced, with little supporting evidence, and with illogical discounting of logical rivals within the field and class. -
yep i do know 147s have 1.6litre variants tt's why i said it first not to include them.. well lets juz say if i have a wife and 2 kids.. i wld not consider golf and 147.. i will consider them if i am a swinging bachelorOriginally posted by HENG@:if the golf and 147 dun qualify, neither does the Civic. The golf and 147 can sit 5 as comfortably as the civic can, they all have similiar boot space, and there are 1.6l golfs and 1.6l 147s. there are even 1.4l golfs, and the civic has 1.4l also. the golf and 147 have 5 door n 3 door versions, just as the civic does. so i don't see on what grounds do u disqualify the 147 and Golf.
i think u're comparing based on singapore's consumer preference, while im comparing purely on spec. Reliability-wise, conti cars are on par with japs. your saying they take the front just does not seem justified. in fact it seems very forced, with little supporting evidence, and with illogical discounting of logical rivals within the field and class.
yep so as i was saying our criteria is kinda ambigious.. so tt's why i am stating my disclaimer in my above entry..
i am not disclaiming conti makes..yesh conti makes are more sturdy, handles better.. the focus is famous for its handling with dunno how many stars in tt euro safety thing.. the megane for introducing high tech gadgets to this class of vehicles first
so when i mean take the front i doesnt meant tech alone since i already included my disclaimer.. i meant it makes the avg sg consumer more inclined to buy thier car..
the avg sg consumer when comparing conti with jap will think.. conti drinks, high maintenance and coupled with the fact tt conti under quote their hp figures and stuff.. i think he will choose a jap brand... -
thats insane. those cars are the mainstay family cars of european countries. i still have no justification for u discounting them.Originally posted by n0x:yep i do know 147s have 1.6litre variants tt's why i said it first not to include them.. well lets juz say if i have a wife and 2 kids.. i wld not consider golf and 147.. i will consider them if i am a swinging bachelor
yep so as i was saying our criteria is kinda ambigious.. so tt's why i am stating my disclaimer in my above entry..
i am not disclaiming conti makes..yesh conti makes are more sturdy, handles better.. the focus is famous for its handling with dunno how many stars in tt euro safety thing.. the megane for introducing high tech gadgets to this class of vehicles first
so when i mean take the front i doesnt meant tech alone since i already included my disclaimer.. i meant it makes the avg sg consumer more inclined to buy thier car..
the avg sg consumer when comparing conti with jap will think.. conti drinks, high maintenance and coupled with the fact tt conti under quote their hp figures and stuff.. i think he will choose a jap brand... -
haha chill man.. friendly chat nia.. no need get so worked upOriginally posted by HENG@:thats insane. those cars are the mainstay family cars of european countries. i still have no justification for u discounting them.
eh europeans and singaporeans diff mindset... tt's why some cars sell in other places and some cars dun sell
sometimes when u market a car its not juz specs and specs alone.. how u market the car is equally impt... -
yea. and we're talking about worldwide market, not just singapore market. even in sg, those cars are every bit family cars. I mean, u only say u discount them as family cars. u still haven't explained whyOriginally posted by n0x:haha chill man.. friendly chat nia.. no need get so worked up
eh europeans and singaporeans diff mindset... tt's why some cars sell in other places and some cars dun sell
sometimes when u market a car its not juz specs and specs alone.. how u market the car is equally impt... -
okie lets put it simply... golf gti or r32 is like wrx sti...i mean i juz cant imagine a family man buying a golf or something... see this is where marketing applies.. how u want to mould the image of a car...Originally posted by HENG@:yea. and we're talking about worldwide market, not just singapore market. even in sg, those cars are every bit family cars. I mean, u only say u discount them as family cars. u still haven't explained why
i generally dun like hatches.. there are only 2 hatches i like... the eg/ek and the other .. u guessed it .. 147... pls pls pls dun spoil the image of it for me i think it is a veh cool car.. not intended for the avg family guy...again it boils down to image... -
huh? but normal golf also can be family car. afterall, u can imagine family man buying civic type R meh?Originally posted by n0x:okie lets put it simply... golf gti or r32 is like wrx sti...i mean i juz cant imagine a family man buying a golf or something... see this is where marketing applies.. how u want to mould the image of a car...
i generally dun like hatches.. there are only 2 hatches i like... the eg/ek and the other .. u guessed it .. 147... pls pls pls dun spoil the image of it for me i think it is a veh cool car.. not intended for the avg family guy...again it boils down to image...
and uh.... sorry ah, but 147 Is a family car.
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golf can be a family car.. so too can be a rx8 and a 2+2 612 scaglietti.. 2 adults in front 2 kids at the back.. is not can or cannot... its juz down to the image thingy..Originally posted by HENG@:huh? but normal golf also can be family car. afterall, u can imagine family man buying civic type R meh?
and uh.... sorry ah, but 147 Is a family car.
pple in sg who go look at vw cars.. either they family man buy passat... or they young girls buy bettle.. those tt want hatchbacks usually will not buy golf cos if i am not wrong it is the second most ex hatch in sg after the 147.. dun make sense.. so left with enthusiast and they are usually young pple with the need for speed.. -
ok let me rephrase. the Golf IS a family car. I'm going to point out to u that the Golf is in the same market segment as the Ford Focus, and is, in fact, the main rival of the Focus. Image-wise, its every bit a family car as well. I cannot imagine ANY young person with a need for speed buying a 1.4l Golf. That thing is hardly considered speedy.Originally posted by n0x:golf can be a family car.. so too can be a rx8 and a 2+2 612 scaglietti.. 2 adults in front 2 kids at the back.. is not can or cannot... its juz down to the image thingy..
pple in sg who go look at vw cars.. either they family man buy passat... or they young girls buy bettle.. those tt want hatchbacks usually will not buy golf cos if i am not wrong it is the second most ex hatch in sg after the 147.. dun make sense.. so left with enthusiast and they are usually young pple with the need for speed..
A Passat is actually more in the small exec segment, and wouldn't be an average family car the way a ford focus would. on the other hand, like i mentioned earlier, the golf is the direct market rival to the focus. so there is no way a focus is a family car while the golf is not. In fact VW has marketed the Golf every bit as such. I'm wondering if its because there is a GTi varient that makes u unable to see it as a family car, which is strange because the similarly hardcore and powered Focus ST should do that to the Focus as well, and what about the insane Astra VXR? yet u think of it as a family car...
i mean u keep talking about image and how they market the car, the golf is a family car through and through and has always been marketed as such. -
oh cos when they market the golf they juz market the best car available and tt's the gti variant b4 the r32 was avaailabe here... focus ST will simply be thought of as a family car again abeit more powerful.. why... cos they market it as a family saloon first... as opposed to the golf ... pple will think tt the normal golf is a tuned down gti..Originally posted by HENG@:ok let me rephrase. the Golf IS a family car. I'm going to point out to u that the Golf is in the same market segment as the Ford Focus, and is, in fact, the main rival of the Focus. Image-wise, its every bit a family car as well. I cannot imagine ANY young person with a need for speed buying a 1.4l Golf. That thing is hardly considered speedy.
A Passat is actually more in the small exec segment, and wouldn't be an average family car the way a ford focus would. on the other hand, like i mentioned earlier, the golf is the direct market rival to the focus. so there is no way a focus is a family car while the golf is not. In fact VW has marketed the Golf every bit as such. I'm wondering if its because there is a GTi varient that makes u unable to see it as a family car, which is strange because the similarly hardcore and powered Focus ST should do that to the Focus as well, and what about the insane Astra VXR? yet u think of it as a family car...
i mean u keep talking about image and how they market the car, the golf is a family car through and through and has always been marketed as such.
and we dun have 1.4 golf here.. we have polo instead.. -
All brands like to market their cars to be sporty ba... whether or not the car itself has any sporting in it is a different matterOriginally posted by n0x:oh cos when they market the golf they juz market the best car available and tt's the gti variant b4 the r32 was avaailabe here... focus ST will simply be thought of as a family car again abeit more powerful.. why... cos they market it as a family saloon first... as opposed to the golf ... pple will think tt the normal golf is a tuned down gti..
and we dun have 1.4 golf here.. we have polo instead.. 
To me the Golf is a premium hatch.. as is the 147.. locally.. the Golf is expensive.. but that alone does not make it sporty or a non family car.. it is just less affordable to the general public.
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Originally posted by n0x:oh cos when they market the golf they juz market the best car available and tt's the gti variant b4 the r32 was avaailabe here... focus ST will simply be thought of as a family car again abeit more powerful.. why... cos they market it as a family saloon first... as opposed to the golf ... pple will think tt the normal golf is a tuned down gti..
and we dun have 1.4 golf here.. we have polo instead..
i think u're being very skewed about it. The 1st Golf ads to come out were the ones advertising the non-hot versions. The ads empahsised on how safe the car was etc. The GTi only came out later, and there haven't be much ads for it besides the occasional ad in the car mags. If u look around, the ads for the Golf are still more family orientated.
What puzzles me even more, is that Ford is now very aggressively advertising the Focus ST and almost none for the Focus itself. So how the ST will simplt be thot of as a family car abeit one more powerful while the Golf is obstinately thought of as not being a family car by u, is a mystery, considering the Focus ST is wayyyyy butcher and more aggresssive looking than the GTi, has bigger rims, a wilder paint scheme, and more bhp. -
Originally posted by HENG@:then u have to blame the japs for stagnanting design-wise. yaya...then u have to give it to the japs for having the boxy car designs over the years too...if not how would the cconti cars overtake them?
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i'm surprised to hear that Ford is advertising aggressively...are u referring to sg or other parts of the world? if its sg, nah, i dun think so. Ford's management never advertise strongly nor aggressively over the years. they dun even have a strong marketing force in the company to start with. when i owned one of their top cars, i complained abt their marketing of their top car which they're selling but still their price drops like Sh|tto.Originally posted by HENG@:
i think u're being very skewed about it. The 1st Golf ads to come out were the ones advertising the non-hot versions. The ads empahsised on how safe the car was etc. The GTi only came out later, and there haven't be much ads for it besides the occasional ad in the car mags. If u look around, the ads for the Golf are still more family orientated.
What puzzles me even more, is that Ford is now very aggressively advertising the Focus ST and almost none for the Focus itself. So how the ST will simplt be thot of as a family car abeit one more powerful while the Golf is obstinately thought of as not being a family car by u, is a mystery, considering the Focus ST is wayyyyy butcher and more aggresssive looking than the GTi, has bigger rims, a wilder paint scheme, and more bhp.
as for golf vs focus...i'll still get a focus anytime, be it looks, power or price. VW simply over-priced their cars in sg. and that's IMHO. popcorns any1?
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???Originally posted by tiggersgd: yaya...then u have to give it to the japs for having the boxy car designs over the years too...if not how would the cconti cars overtake them?
now i have to ask u, just what exactly would u encompass in design? just overall look, or including mechanicals? im talking about everything, mechanicals, looks, etc etc. -
Originally posted by tiggersgd:
no doubt VW overprices their cars. Although how much overpriced it is, is subject to opinion. Being overpriced does not bring a car out of the family car segment though.
i'm surprised to hear that Ford is [b]advertising aggressively...are u referring to sg or other parts of the world? if its sg, nah, i dun think so. Ford's management never advertise strongly nor aggressively over the years. they dun even have a strong marketing force in the company to start with. when i owned one of their top cars, i complained abt their marketing of their top car which they're selling but still their price drops like Sh|tto.
as for golf vs focus...i'll still get a focus anytime, be it looks, power or price. VW simply over-priced their cars in sg. and that's IMHO. popcorns any1?[/b]
Remember, when I talk about Ford's aggressive advertisement, of course I would talk about the world as a whole. Since when was sg's car market representative of the automotive market?
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relax lah...let me put it this way, i only want to discuss about the sg market advertising segment and i didn't put in the world as a playing field over here,right?Originally posted by HENG@:no doubt VW overprices their cars. Although how much overpriced it is, is subject to opinion. Being overpriced does not bring a car out of the family car segment though.
Remember, when I talk about Ford's aggressive advertisement, of course I would talk about the world as a whole. Since when was sg's car market representative of the automotive market?
if u so choose to view it as a world marketing segment, then it should also include sg as well, right? and since it includes sg being in this part of the world doesn't it make sense to have a global marketing effort as per ur stand of world as a whole?
and as of now, i m telling u that what Ford is lacking in sg is their marketing/advertising. they are not strong at all. and since when did i mention sg car market representative of the automotive market
do get ur facts right. it is only a discussion (deviated from original topic :lol
. if in doubt, it is always good to ask...esp since u r an engineer-to-be. if not u can be seen as an angry person in reply. -
the new civic is on i-vtec... no more kui vtec liaos..
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Originally posted by tiggersgd:
hmm. seeing as the whole point about n0x having raised the issue of the UK civic being a class leader, instead of the sg civic, means we have to take more into account the UK market and the world market right? I didn't ever have any doubt as to which market this discussion is based. If all of u have been talking about sg market all along, then your points are moot because the car which gave rise to the discussion is the UK-spec civic, which is not currently available in sg. I am sure I have my facts right. Um, the question is, do u? I'm not being hostile or anything, I hope u dun see it that way.
relax lah...let me put it this way, [b]i only want to discuss about the sg market advertising segment and i didn't put in the world as a playing field over here,right?
if u so choose to view it as a world marketing segment, then it should also include sg as well, right? and since it includes sg being in this part of the world doesn't it make sense to have a global marketing effort as per ur stand of world as a whole?
and as of now, i m telling u that what Ford is lacking in sg is their marketing/advertising. they are not strong at all. and since when did i mention sg car market representative of the automotive market
do get ur facts right. it is only a discussion (deviated from original topic :lol. if in doubt, it is always good to ask...esp since u r an engineer-to-be. if not u can be seen as an angry person in reply.[/b]