The truth about City Harvest Church
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now they allow..last time in the medival times they didn't! don't believe me you go ask historians...it wasn't unitl martin luther translated the bible from latin into ordinary german that laymen began reading the bible.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Eh boss, you're still not answering my question. I need you to prove that the Catholic Church does not allow the laity to read the bible.
Can you prove that? Because, it seriously is a very ridiculous claim. Now let me correct you. The church has always encouraged the laity to read their bibles! We have always emphasised the importance of the Holy Scripture. St Jerome says, "Whoever does not know Scripture, does not know God." -
the bible is for all to read..go pick up a copy and feel free to browse and question..but be sure to pick up the KJV....not the other versions for the KJV has never been proven wrong whereas other newer new age versions have had many contradictions pointed out. you don't need faith to read the bible..to have faith or not its entirely up to you. people who don't know latin and greek CAN read the bible..whoever said that people who don't know latin and greek cant read the bible? whoever that person is..he's clearly trying to keep laymen from recieving the word of God. it is precisely because laymen have the right to read the bible that it was translated from latin and greek into english, german, chinese and so on...Originally posted by stupidissmart:Personally, I have 2 groups of people tat is telling me not to read the bible
1. They say tat non believers shouldn't read the bible. They claim tat those who read the bible must already have faith in it. Tat just means tat they themselves already have faith in the bible before they personally read it. The faith must have come from his friends and families tat had brainwash him sufficiently.
2. They r saying people who do not know greek, latin, hebrew shouldn't read the bible or understand them. In tat case almost 99% of the christians do nto know anything about hebrew and greek either. Then it is a puzzling phenomenon tat this 99% of the population believe in something they don't understand.
trust me, I have experienced these kind of dumb opinions in my years here. -
if money is the root of all evil, why do churches, especially CHC want it so much?
personal experience:
pastor: "we believe only those who believe in god and love god will go to heaven. we believe all others will go to hell. nothing else will save you, not even doing good deeds, but only to believe and to love god"
next sentence:
pastor:" please show your love for god by donating 10% of your monthly income to the church."
um...to link it up, donate money to the church or go to hell.
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thats why i never regarded chc as christian..i've always viewed it more as a social club. most normal churches collect money from willing members regardless of amount just to get barely enough to maintain the building...repair damage, payl electricity bills blahblah they're not supposed to introduce a compulsory fee or collect explicit amounts..but well its entirely up to them..none of my business.Originally posted by branzzz:if money is the root of all evil, why do churches, especially CHC want it so much?
personal experience:
pastor: "we believe only those who believe in god and love god will go to heaven. we believe all others will go to hell. nothing else will save you, not even doing good deeds, but only to believe and to love god"
next sentence:
pastor:" please show your love for god by donating 10% of your monthly income to the church."
um...to link it up, donate money to the church or go to hell. -
You sure? You sure that the Catholic Church used to forbid the reading of the Holy Scripture?Originally posted by vito_corleone:now they allow..last time in the medival times they didn't! don't believe me you go ask historians...it wasn't unitl martin luther translated the bible from latin into ordinary german that laymen began reading the bible.
So here lies your argument. Why didn't people in the middle ages read the Bible?
The Bible was on scrolls and parchments during the early centuries of Christianity. Nobody had a "Bible". Even into the Middle Ages, each Bible was written by hand. Most people were only functionally literate. The printing press was not invented until 1436 by Johann Gutenberg. So prior to 1436, the idea of everybody having a Bible was out of the question, even if they could read.
After the invention of the printing press, prior to Luther's Bible being published in German, there had been over 20 versions of the whole Bible translated into the various German dialects (High and Low) by Catholics. Similarly, there were several vernacular versions of the Bible published in other languages both before and after the Reformation. The Church did condemn certain vernacular translations because of what it felt were bad translations and anti-Catholic notes. (Vernacular means native to a region or country)
The Catholic Douay-Rheims version of the whole Bible in English was translated from the Latin Vulgate. It was completed in 1610, one year before the King James Version was published. The New Testament had been published in 1582 and was one of the sources used by the KJV translators. The Old Testament was completed in 1610.
The Latin Vulgate was always available to anyone who wanted to read it without restriction. Some have said that it would only have been usable by people who read Latin. But in the 16th Century there were no public schools and literacy was not that common, especially among the peasants. Those people who could read had been well educated and could read Latin.
So you might say, The Church still had its readings and services in Latin, which most of them could not understand!
But Latin was far from being a dead language! It was the language of theology and science (the language of all educated peoples throughout Europe and beyond!) well into the 17th and 18th Centuries. For example, when Isaac Newton published his works on physics, he published them in Latin so that all of Europe could read them. The same was true of all other scientific and scholarly advances. The reason that the Protestant reformers used vernacular languages was because a) most educated people did not take the reformers seriously and b) they used the masses to get power for their movement. The pamphlets published by Luther and Calvin were filled with all manner of crude and dirty language (lots of references to "s hitting," "pissing," and "farting" ), and this was done to capture the imagination of the common man and to create popular uprising against the social establishment.
The Bible could very much be understood by people with the intelligence and ability to understand its theological content -- most of whom spoke Latin. Most common people of the time, however, could understand neither the language nor the content. And most common people are still clueless about the content of the Bible today! Which is why Protestants supply "ministers" to interpret it for them.... I say again, the Catholic Church was never opposed people reading the Bible! What it opposed was people reading interpretations the Bible apart from the teaching authority of the Church, which would lead to the kinds of problems we have today with 30,000 denominations interpreting scripture differently. The Bible itself warns against this. (2 Peter 1:20). With the invention of printing, there was a communications explosion, and one suddenly saw lots of people making very poor and heretical translations of the Bible and popularizing them throughout Christendom. The Church tried to put an end to it.
Some Evangelicals accuse the Catholic Church of "Chaining Bibles". The Church DID chain Bibles in the Middle Ages; and for the same reason that StarHub chains its directories to the booth -- to prevent people from STEALING them.
We must remember that each Bible had to be copied by hand and that it took the lifetime of a monk to do this. According to standards today, each one of these Bibles would probably be worth $20,000. Records have been compiled which show that there were 5,000 chained books in 11 Protestant and 2 Catholic libraries. The Reformers, likewise, chained their Bibles in their churches for at least 300 years. Therefore, Catholics were not alone in chaining Bibles.
http://www.catholicbridge.com/bible_catholics.htm -
May I suggest self control and restrain. A flame war is not good.
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Sun Ho appears on an Estime advertisement on the second page of City Harvest magazine "Harvest Times". Let us get the money making link:
2 ways CHC can harvest more money out of this Sun-Estime link:
1. Estime pays Sun, who is pastor in CHC to represent its products.
2. Estime pays CHC to advertise in Harvest Times.
By the way, anyone know who are the owners of Estime? -
An update about the church...
Now they are starting to charge for their once free shuttle bus service!
Now thats smart business! -
i always wanted to ask abt spirituality and profiteering..but guess i wont be asking in this forum
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to marcos: naturally if u take your info from catholic sources they will say all sorts of stuff that supports their claims, if u choose not to believe i cant force you and im not trying to force you...however it is not up to the church and its sources to determine the truth, it is up to us to do our own research from many many sources and decide what we want to believe. yes and regarding the city harvest thing..well all im saying that the church should be more people oriented....its supposed to just be a place where people come together to share and worship..not a fancy country club which charges membership and bus fees nor a fancy building which costs millions to build..it all boils down to the main thing: what's the purpose of doing all these things? is God going to favour you and bless you just because you have a big huge nice church? its not what you have or how much u give..its how strong your faith is.
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I think CHC building is well built for war.Originally posted by vito_corleone:not a fancy country club which charges membership and bus fees nor a fancy building which costs millions to build..it all boils down to the main thing: what's the purpose of doing all these things? is God going to favour you and bless you just because you have a big huge nice church? its not what you have or how much u give..its how strong your faith is.
1. Titanium shield.
2. Deep underground bunker - at least 7 stories underground -
busing ain't cheap, and the number of buses required keep rising each year.Originally posted by Cindyfeh:Sun Ho appears on an Estime advertisement on the second page of City Harvest magazine "Harvest Times". Let us get the money making link:
2 ways CHC can harvest more money out of this Sun-Estime link:
1. Estime pays Sun, who is pastor in CHC to represent its products.
2. Estime pays CHC to advertise in Harvest Times.
By the way, anyone know who are the owners of Estime? -
lol...what a waste of resources...i suggest government confiscate the property and use it as some command HQ for SAF.Originally posted by Cindyfeh:I think CHC building is well built for war.
1. Titanium shield.
2. Deep underground bunker - at least 7 stories underground -
SAF prolly got better stuff at gombak....Originally posted by vito_corleone:lol...what a waste of resources...i suggest government confiscate the property and use it as some command HQ for SAF.
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Decide what you want to believe... Decide what you want to believe? How do you know what you believe is true? There are so many sources, if they all say different things then who shall i believe?Originally posted by vito_corleone:to marcos: naturally if u take your info from catholic sources they will say all sorts of stuff that supports their claims, if u choose not to believe i cant force you and im not trying to force you...however it is not up to the church and its sources to determine the truth, it is up to us to do our own research from many many sources and decide what we want to believe.
You tell me. -
I want to ask you this. You sure the pastor really say that? Can you be very sure of this? Those words seem to be the words of a fanatic rather than a pastor. And besides, 10% of your income donation was a practice carried out in the olden days during the Old Testament Era.Originally posted by branzzz:if money is the root of all evil, why do churches, especially CHC want it so much?
personal experience:
pastor: "we believe only those who believe in god and love god will go to heaven. we believe all others will go to hell. nothing else will save you, not even doing good deeds, but only to believe and to love god"
next sentence:
pastor:" please show your love for god by donating 10% of your monthly income to the church."
um...to link it up, donate money to the church or go to hell. -
So does it constitutes that those who does not pay 10% are losers?
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thats up to you to judge which one to believe...i believe what i have known so far is true...its my personal judgement...you dont have to follow what i believe unless you're my dog. thats why they teach u history and social studies in school..to compare and cross refrence and analyse sources and make judgements.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Decide what you want to believe... Decide what you want to believe? How do you know what you believe is true? There are so many sources, if they all say different things then who shall i believe?
You tell me. -
what a bunch of bull. people who believe in god and love god but commit sins and crimes like murder will naturally be condemned..there is no such thing as faith alone will take u to heaven..the devil knows that there's a god too how come it dosen't go to heaven?Originally posted by shade343:I want to ask you this. You sure the pastor really say that? Can you be very sure of this? Those words seem to be the words of a fanatic rather than a pastor. And besides, 10% of your income donation was a practice carried out in the olden days during the Old Testament Era. -
Originally posted by Ito_^:
No it does not meant. In fact those who pay the 10% are the real losers. There is no real need for members to pay 10%. thsi is how the church earns money. people with brains will definitely question the need to pay 10& but it surprises me that many people take "its for the love of God" as a legitimate answer....tsk tsk
So does it constitutes that those who does not pay 10% are losers? -
yes i can confirm it word by word that the pastor said it. there are other members from that church in my school now and they continue to say exactly the same thing. when i ask what would happen to people like ghandhi and the dalai lama, they simply stone. and yes, apparently we're still living in the old testament times. while i was there, it was a church guideline(more like regulation) to donate 10% of your monthlly income or allowance.Originally posted by shade343:I want to ask you this. You sure the pastor really say that? Can you be very sure of this? Those words seem to be the words of a fanatic rather than a pastor. And besides, 10% of your income donation was a practice carried out in the olden days during the Old Testament Era. -
It is called CHC
Every weekend, there are SMRT buses from all around the island with "CHC Charter"... It is for them... -
ok...I've moved forum and this was the first article i read in this forum... sure is long...spent like 1/2 hr... im a christian for years and i shall not comment anymore on CHC... all of you should stop before this forums goes down... and im serious if any CHC admins or whatever sees this thread there could be trouble... they could sue u pple for personal attacking...
martin luther once said 'you will lose nothing if God does not exist and you live and died as a christian... but you will lose Everything if god exists and you live and died not as one'
i hope that helps and let's stop this thread... -
oh boy~~ never end...
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Yes a very good question!Originally posted by vito_corleone:what a bunch of bull. people who believe in god and love god but commit sins and crimes like murder will naturally be condemned..there is no such thing as faith alone will take u to heaven..the devil knows that there's a god too how come it dosen't go to heaven?
The devil also obviously believe that Christ died on the cross so that whoever believes in Him will be saved and goes to heaven. That is why the devil is so anti-Christ. Since the devil sincerely believe that, why doesn't he go to heaven? Because Christ died for man and not the devil?