The truth about City Harvest Church

• HENG@

  10 Jan 05, 06:00

  Originally posted by sgforums_user:

  what has Witches, Crusades, Evolution, Wikipedia, BBC... got to do with CHC?
  
  this post was just a guy asking opinions abt the church.
  ended up being a heated debate ?!?

  doncha know? anything here that has anything to do with religion will ALWAYS end up being a heated debate.
• vito_corleone

  10 Jan 05, 06:24

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I believe a person who truly read and understand the bible will not become a christian.

  can you prove that creationism aint true? how do u think evolution started then? how do u think the single cell organisms that were supposedly the origins of evolution came about? according to your theory they had to evolve from something and if creationism didnt happen..how did that something come about? obviously now creationism makes more sense than evolution. you can never read and truly understand the bible and nor do all people who do read the bible become christians, in fact...i can betcha that over 75% ofchristians never read more than 20% of the bible. first u tell me you believe in the truth..now you tell me that u BELIEVE that blah blah blah..aren't you contradicting yourself?
• stupidissmart

  10 Jan 05, 09:35

  can you prove that creationism aint true?

  I have been speaking about tis point for a million times but I guess I have to do again. I can say tat god is actually a purple hippotamus or a pink unicorn. Can u prove me to be wrong ? I can say noch ness monster exists. Can u prove to me tat it doesn't ? Even if u manage to show tat noch ness monster is not found in noch ness, I can easily say it may exists in jupiter, alpha a or some distant stars or something. U can't prove it. Therefore, people who r logical and scientific requires u to prove your point instead of asking other people to prove u wrong. If creationism exists, it should be u to prove it out to us and not us to prove u to be wrong. U get the point ?
  
  

  how do u think evolution started then? how do u think the single cell organisms that were supposedly the origins of evolution came about?

  Evolution started because living organism change to fit the environemnt better. How did the origin of evolution which is the first cell come about, it is still under study. It is possible tat it is created in the most natural of ways. However the idea tat all living things r not evolved but created (creationism) is wrong. Dogs doesn't just popped out of thin air but rather evolved from wolves or foxes. If u believe tat only the first cell is "created" while the rest of the species of living things r evolved from tat cell, glad to say u already believe in evolution; i.e a single cell EVOLVED to become some plant which EVOLVED to become fish etc etc etc
  
  

  you can never read and truly understand the bible and nor do all people who do read the bible become christians,

  on wat ground cau u say tat ? Do u know me or the bible is impossible to understand since it is full of contradictions ?
  
  

  in fact...i can betcha that over 75% ofchristians never read more than 20% of the bible. first u tell me you believe in the truth..now you tell me that u BELIEVE that blah blah blah..aren't you contradicting yourself?

  I say I believe in the truth. Then I believe "bla bla bla" ? Wat do u mean by "bla bla bla" ? Care to elaborate on "bla bla bla" ?
• chengsun

  11 Jan 05, 11:23

  i find christians, or most devoted christians, debate in the same way, exactly the same way! this kind f debate happened in other forums that i surf and exactly the same kind of way to debate from chistians, a very devoted one and claim himself to be a scientist... that forum is channel news asia forum
• SingaporeMacross

  13 Jan 05, 22:30

  vito_corleone:
  
  Ok friend, we need to sort out some issues.
  
  1)The issue on money
  
  

  oh really? who does the vatican owe money to? expalin the private planes, the elaborate silk robes, the gold filled basillicas...

  Look at this http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vt.html
  

  revenues: $245.2 million
  expenditures: $260.4 million, including capital expenditures of NA (2002)

  Revenue minus expenditures should give you surplus. Do you see any surplus in this case? Which means that the Vatican is losing money.
  $245.2 million - $260.4 million = -$15.2 million
  
  http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/07/1...h_finances.html
  Another web site for your reference.
  
  2)The issue on the Inquisition
  
  

  you never heard of the inquisition? i'd expect that from one who murdered thousands of innocents..murderers always deny murder charges. i'm just trying to question why it claims one thing while doing another.

  I merely said:
  
  

  And nobody is denying that plenty of people died during the Inquisition. By the way, where specifically did the Inquisitions happen? I can't remember...

  Did you read properly? The Church does not deny that her members have killed people. She has in fact admitted their crimes. Yes, I have heard of the Inquisitions. I merely want to find out what you know about it. That is all.
  
  Nezt, the issue of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
  
  

  because its the only faith that has been actually accurately documented and each book matches the description of the other...both books were written by different people in different places. it has also never been proven to be wrong about anything..and im refering to the King James Version of the bible, the original one..not the new stuff. don't come tell me what about james brother of jesus..i do believe jesus had a bro and mary wasn't virgin.

  While I am relieved that you believe that Jesus Christ is the result of Virgin Birth, I am taken aback when you say Mary is not virgin after his birth. If you refuse to believe the Catholic view, I will show you what your Protestant forefathers have said.
  
  Ulrich Zwingli says,
  

  I firmly believe according to the words of the gospel that a pure virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and remained a virgin pure and intact in childbirth and also after the birth, for all eternity. I firmly trust that she has been exalted by God to eternal joy above all creatures, both the blessed and the angels.

  Ulrich Zwingli, quoted in Augustin Bea, “Mary and the Protestants,” Marian Studies 83, April 1961, 1.
  
  Martin Luther says,
  

  Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

  Martin Luther, Sermons on John, Chapters 1-4, 1537-39.
  
  Let us practise charity, and not let this discussion escalate into a flame skirmish.
• Cindyfeh

  14 Jan 05, 00:15

  One question:
  
  Should Christians work for companies owned by non-Christians? The non-christian boss may be using the profit to build a statue of his god for others to pray. Christianity does not support idolism.
  
  A similar question:
  Should Christians work for Mediacorp, TVB, Hollywood? These places support idolism.
  
  Another similar question:
  Should Christians pay $8.50 to watch a movie which indirectly support idolism too?
• vito_corleone

  14 Jan 05, 02:50

  Originally posted by Cindyfeh:

  One question:
  
  Should Christians work for companies owned by non-Christians? The non-christian boss may be using the profit to build a statue of his god for others to pray. Christianity does not support idolism.
  
  A similar question:
  Should Christians work for Mediacorp, TVB, Hollywood? These places support idolism.
  
  Another similar question:
  Should Christians pay $8.50 to watch a movie which indirectly support idolism too?

  well i should have you know that christianity does not force the faith onto anyone..they can do what they want..up to them..they wanna believe or not..totally up to them..there is no rule restricting us from working for so on and so forth..it is the people who are praying to their own deities and stuff not us. and reg. the previous post..i didn't not mean to say that mary was not a virgin in a bad way..what i meant to say was that she probably had other children later on in her life and james, brother of jesus was one of them.
• plo30360

  14 Jan 05, 15:25

  The Catholic church is not the only church who carried out inquistion, Protestants have thier fair share too:
  
  Here's 1
  http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM
  
  
• sassyfire

  14 Jan 05, 17:01

  am just trying to catch up on the 9 pages but it's highly impossible...
  
  Have seen this religion debate countless times, have never replied so will just like to issue some thoughts for this time round
  
  1) Religion - depending on what it means to u, it can mean a principle, an idea, faith or belief. Christianity is not just believing & faith, it's a relationship with God.
  2) Yes, it's almost impossible to interpret & understand the bible unless you study Hebrew, Greek etc then again it's still not possible to understand its entirety. Simply, some were passages from the Holy Spirit, some were from God speaking to men & some while Jesus is still on this earth. If you really understand the bible, then you won't find any contradictions. Never take the bible out of its context, you want to read one verse, make sure you read the rest. Many things stated in the bible describing the end times are already happening.
  3) Yes God is everywhere at anytime. We still go to church because it's a body of Christ. Because this is where we all come to fellowship, worship Him & grow. By keeping yourself at home (unless your parents locked you away from church), how can you mature? Just like if you don't go & get tp know someone better. how are you going to know for sure what kind of person he/she really is. You mean by talking on the phone you can understand his/ her habits, real attitude, give her/ him a human touch when they need it etc? So likewise, when you need comforting, there're people to pray for you and lend a helping hand.
  4) Yes nobody is perfect, that's why we need God.
  5) I have heard this old man say, people say God comes to them, but not those other gods he believed in, he has to go to "them"...hence he made up his mind to believe in the one true God.
  6) Yes not all Christians are good, but they claim they're Christians, what does God see in them, that's another issue. It's not our position to judge them, we can tell them where it goes wrong but it's up to them to repent. Some people make use of Christianity to make themselves look good, not glorify God.
  7) Christians are the most judged people on earth. Why? Cos many know the truth in their hearts but are afraid what the world will think of them so they turn round to attack us.
  
  that's all I have to say....hope it will sit well with you guys.
  
• vito_corleone

  14 Jan 05, 21:07

  Originally posted by plo30360:

  The Catholic church is not the only church who carried out inquistion, Protestants have thier fair share too:
  
  Here's 1
  http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM
  
  

  the protestant movement was never about tolerance or co-existence with the catholic church. matrin luher pinned up all the wrong doings of the roman church in a bid to get them to change but they didn't. people in europe were sick of being controlled and manipulated like puppets, letting the roman church have absolute authority over their lives, sick of them defying the word of god and not letting the laymen read the bible, sick of living in poverty whereas the vatican heirachy indulged in luxury so they launched the movement. well i don't wanna say too much since this is gonna start another heated debate/flamming session so you just do whatever u think is right for u and i do the same.
• stupidissmart

  15 Jan 05, 00:33

  Religion - depending on what it means to u, it can mean a principle, an idea, faith or belief. Christianity is not just believing & faith, it's a relationship with God

  U need faith to believe there is a god in the first place.
  
  

  Yes, it's almost impossible to interpret & understand the bible unless you study Hebrew, Greek etc then again it's still not possible to understand its entirety. Simply, some were passages from the Holy Spirit, some were from God speaking to men & some while Jesus is still on this earth. If you really understand the bible, then you won't find any contradictions. Never take the bible out of its context, you want to read one verse, make sure you read the rest. Many things stated in the bible describing the end times are already happening.

  The translators for the bible r not nitwits who do not know how to translate. There r many translators throughout the time and they can be judge as giving the idea from the other languages 99.99% correct to english. Do u know hebrew and greek ? I presume u do not. If u say tat only those who knew greek or hebrew can understand the bible, then why do u believe in something u do not understand ? Surely u already believe in the bible written in english ?
  
  There r some jokers in the past tat predict men can go to the moon and invent submarines. SO wat r they ?
  
  

  Yes God is everywhere at anytime. We still go to church because it's a body of Christ. Because this is where we all come to fellowship, worship Him & grow. By keeping yourself at home (unless your parents locked you away from church), how can you mature? Just like if you don't go & get tp know someone better. how are you going to know for sure what kind of person he/she really is. You mean by talking on the phone you can understand his/ her habits, real attitude, give her/ him a human touch when they need it etc? So likewise, when you need comforting, there're people to pray for you and lend a helping hand.

  If god is everywhere at anytime, then there is no need to go to church. Oxygen is almost at everywhere as well. Surely I can breath at home as easily anywhere. Do I need to go outside to breath before running back to my room ? Your definition on "everywhere ay anytime" need to be define more properly.
  
  

  Yes nobody is perfect, that's why we need God

  Nothing is perfect, not even god. Just be happy tat u r powerful enough to shape your destiny
  
  

  I have heard this old man say, people say God comes to them, but not those other gods he believed in, he has to go to "them"...hence he made up his mind to believe in the one true God.

  I have heard many people saying tat christians comes to them, but not the other religion. Does tis sounds familiar ? Hmm...
  
  

  Yes not all Christians are good, but they claim they're Christians, what does God see in them, that's another issue. It's not our position to judge them, we can tell them where it goes wrong but it's up to them to repent. Some people make use of Christianity to make themselves look good, not glorify God.

  In short, u don't know why tis phenomenon is so and therefore u push all the unknowns to your ignorance. Your answer can be easily summarized by the words "I don't know". Or putting it more crudely, some christians behave like sh!t and can go to heaven while other leads a good life but end up in hell. U don't think it is fair, u don't think it is logical and u don't question about it but just keep mum and hope tat things r as the tales r told. If suddenly god play a trick on u and send all christians to hell instead, then maybe u will start to ask why
  
  

  Christians are the most judged people on earth. Why? Cos many know the truth in their hearts but are afraid what the world will think of them so they turn round to attack us.

  I think muslim r getting it worse than christians. Wat u think is the truth may not be the real truth.
  
  
• SingaporeMacross

  15 Jan 05, 00:55

  Originally posted by vito_corleone:

  the protestant movement was never about tolerance or co-existence with the catholic church. matrin luher pinned up all the wrong doings of the roman church in a bid to get them to change but they didn't. people in europe were sick of being controlled and manipulated like puppets, letting the roman church have absolute authority over their lives, sick of them defying the word of god and not letting the laymen read the bible, sick of living in poverty whereas the vatican heirachy indulged in luxury so they launched the movement. well i don't wanna say too much since this is gonna start another heated debate/flamming session so you just do whatever u think is right for u and i do the same.

  Lol, aren't conditions in the church much better today? And that point about not letting the laity read the Holy Scripture, I find that very questionable. Prove it.
  
  It's not about doing what you think is right, or what I think is right. We must have a clear dialogue. It will be foolish if we do not find out the truth.
  
  (You don't want a flame war, I don't want a flame war, so let's keep it cool. )
• vito_corleone

  15 Jan 05, 01:37

  Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:

  Lol, aren't conditions in the church much better today? And that point about not letting the laity read the Holy Scripture, I find that very questionable. Prove it.
  
  It's not about doing what you think is right, or what I think is right. We must have a clear dialogue. It will be foolish if we do not find out the truth.
  
  (You don't want a flame war, I don't want a flame war, so let's keep it cool. )

  well i don't wanna seem offensive or start another flamming war or anything but IMO God's words are meant for all men to see since all men are equal before God..so i believe that all laymen should have the right to read the bible and judge for themselves whether to believe or not to believe the word of God..that is all but i mena if its your belief that lay people shouldn't read your scriptures then well its up to you and yes the condition of the church seems slghtly better since we stopped killing each other and burning each other's houses and such..isn't right for me to judge wots right and wots wrong..God will judge us all on judgement day
• vito_corleone

  15 Jan 05, 01:39

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I think muslim r getting it worse than christians. Wat u think is the truth may not be the real truth.
  
  

  well a church is merely a place where christians come together to worship and such...it definately isnt some like holy place and compulsory activity or whatever..take me for instance i don't go to church.
• sleepycat

  15 Jan 05, 01:41

  "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them."
  
  Ring any bell?
  
  The blood may be dried but alive.
• vito_corleone

  15 Jan 05, 01:48

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I think muslim r getting it worse than christians. Wat u think is the truth may not be the real truth.
  
  

  the bible i believed was first written in hebrew then translated to Greek and then Latin when it spread..the english bible didn't appear until King James the first i think ordered a translation from Latin to English for lay english people to read, this is the King James Version that we know today. it was also translated into german and other languages. and re. the bad christians part..ok im in no authority to judge but its widely accepted that belief alone will not guarentee you a place in heaven...everyone believes in a God in some way or another..even the devil knows there is a God but it will not go to heaven. why? because it is evil and it has defied God again and again and led God's people astray, similarly, a self professed "christian" who rapes and kills will not go to heaven either.
• FireIce

  15 Jan 05, 01:53

  let there be light and there was light
  
  thanks to thomas edison
• sleepycat

  15 Jan 05, 01:54

  They do not know nor understand; For He has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, And their hearts, so that they cannot understand. - Isa 44
• vito_corleone

  15 Jan 05, 01:54

  Originally posted by FireIce:

  let there be light and there was light
  
  thanks to thomas edison

  let there be fire and there was fire
  thanks to cave man
• lwflee

  15 Jan 05, 01:58

  Let there be fiction; And someone compiled the bible.
  
  waahahahah > takes cover <
• fudgester

  15 Jan 05, 07:50

  *eats popcorn..... sips on coke*
  
  I'm not gonna toss in my S$0.02 here, cos I'm Muslim, and I'm not very good at matters pertaining to Christianity. I'm just intrigued at where this discussion is going..... from a discussion regarding CHC, it's turning into a discussion on Christianity in general. Nothing wrong with that, just make sure it doesn't turn out into an all-out flaming war.
  
  Some of the bloodiest wars in history have religion intertwined in them. Let us keep them where they belong - in the pages of history books, not the pages of sgforums.com.
  
  *BURP........*
  
  Coke gives me gas..... sorry.
• stupidissmart

  15 Jan 05, 10:38

  im in no authority to judge but its widely accepted that belief alone will not guarentee you a place in heaven...everyone believes in a God in some way or another..

  I am sure u will agree tat according to scriptures, non believers will go to hell no matter how good they r in their lives. They could be mother theresa or abbot from ren ci and still end up in hell.
  
  

  They do not know nor understand; For He has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, And their hearts, so that they cannot understand

  Talking about chrsitians huh...
• Honeybunz

  15 Jan 05, 16:44

  As the discussion moves on, City Harvest Church seems to disappear from the discussion.
• SingaporeMacross

  15 Jan 05, 17:13

  Originally posted by vito_corleone:

  well i don't wanna seem offensive or start another flamming war or anything but IMO God's words are meant for all men to see since all men are equal before God..so i believe that all laymen should have the right to read the bible and judge for themselves whether to believe or not to believe the word of God..that is all but i mena if its your belief that lay people shouldn't read your scriptures then well its up to you and yes the condition of the church seems slghtly better since we stopped killing each other and burning each other's houses and such..isn't right for me to judge wots right and wots wrong..God will judge us all on judgement day

  Eh boss, you're still not answering my question. I need you to prove that the Catholic Church does not allow the laity to read the bible.
  
  Can you prove that? Because, it seriously is a very ridiculous claim. Now let me correct you. The church has always encouraged the laity to read their bibles! We have always emphasised the importance of the Holy Scripture. St Jerome says, "Whoever does not know Scripture, does not know God."
• stupidissmart

  16 Jan 05, 00:25

  Personally, I have 2 groups of people tat is telling me not to read the bible
  
  1. They say tat non believers shouldn't read the bible. They claim tat those who read the bible must already have faith in it. Tat just means tat they themselves already have faith in the bible before they personally read it. The faith must have come from his friends and families tat had brainwash him sufficiently.
  
  2. They r saying people who do not know greek, latin, hebrew shouldn't read the bible or understand them. In tat case almost 99% of the christians do nto know anything about hebrew and greek either. Then it is a puzzling phenomenon tat this 99% of the population believe in something they don't understand.
  
  trust me, I have experienced these kind of dumb opinions in my years here.