The truth about City Harvest Church
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Peace, be still?
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glad u realise that.Originally posted by fallin:What is done in the name of Christianity can't be considered Christianity. The men who fought the crusades were in direct conflict with what our religion says.
Matt 5:9,Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God.
Matt 5:44,But I tell you:Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you,
The acts of individuals who chose to use the name of Christianity to commit acts such as the crusades cannot be used to represent main-stream Christianity. Even Jesus Christ himself warned about such individuals. The masterminds of the crusades etc etc were acting against what is stated in the Bible.
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nice history lesson man ..
just to sidetrack, i understand there is this christian association in singapore where the churches in singapore are affliated to. from what my fren told me, the tith collected from the churches will be used to build the kingdom of god, therefore such money is usually pooled together to help one another..and he also told me churches like CHC is not part of the association as they are on their own.
Can anyone just verify or clarify that ? -
any true, right minded church association would not accept such a decadent, commercialised organisation into their ranks.
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what is the association called?Originally posted by one-niner:nice history lesson man ..
just to sidetrack, i understand there is this christian association in singapore where the churches in singapore are affliated to. from what my fren told me, the tith collected from the churches will be used to build the kingdom of god, therefore such money is usually pooled together to help one another..and he also told me churches like CHC is not part of the association as they are on their own.
Can anyone just verify or clarify that ? -
ultimately i must say, i really don't know if CHC is a good or a bad thing. yes because of its existance, it has made christians out of some ppl who otherwise would not have embraced christianity at all, but are they embracing christianity for the correct reasons? and for ever one person they convert, I dare say they also create 2 anti-christians.
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anyways..if those places arent evil enough for you..those weren't peaceful homos..they practically gay raped every visitor and fathers slept with their own daughters..
As said before, they use violence to deal with matters. They don't want talks, they don't want to pursuade, they don't wanna try to change these people but instead they do a quick job by killing every single one of them. As such, tis make the religion violent, and believe tat violence is a solution to opposition.just freakin think for a second..if you created something and somebody else came to defile and detsory your creation..by common sense you would natually get rid of it...if you were God, would you want the people u created to worship some demonic idols?
Frankly, i will not end a life just because it doesn't worship me. If I create human, and they decide to worship some other things because I keep hiding from them, not giving them any evidences of my existence, I don't blame them for worshipping some other things. It doesn't affect me in any way.of course not. witch hunting? you have no idea how evil witch practices used to be..they were the ones who started the original halloween..they didn't trick or treat for sweets..they trick or treated for little children to be sacrificed at pagaan rituals...
Oh really ? U probably heard too muich one sided story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchhunt
Let me cut out some interesting sentence for others to read
Many of the suspects were women who lived in towns, villages or rural areas and who may have been practitioners of herbalism, natural healing or midwifery; but often it was simply poor, uneducated women who did not have influential friends. Early Modern Christian authorities in Europe (both Catholic and Protestant) regarded any such expression of non-Christian, natural spirituality with intense paranoia and hatred. This was in accord with literal readings of the Old Testament, which contains fierce attacks against the polytheism of non-Hebrew peoples.
The most important form of evidence in many of the witch trials was attained by "ordeal". These efforts included torture of the most horrific nature including hot pincers, the thumbscrew, the iron maiden, and many other such methods. Torture methods varied by region and the person carrying out the ordeal.
The East Anglia region of England at one point during the chaos of the Civil War had a self-proclaimed "Witchfinder General", one Matthew Hopkins, who led searches, and who claimed to be able to identify a witch using techniques such as witches' marks. Today it is not believed that most of the accused ever regarded themselves as witches.
Research into the laws and records of the time show that the witchfinders often used peine forte et dure and other torture to extract confessions and condemnations of friends, relatives and neighbors. Virtually everyone today looks on this period of history as a very dark time.
The peculiar beliefs and superstitions attached to or associated with witchcraft caused those who were suspected of practising the craft to be extremely likely to be subjected to tortures of greater degree than any ordinary heretic or criminal. More, certain specific torments were invented for use against them. -
and as for the crusades and ther turks? i believed it was allowed to happen because the orthodox byzantines strayed from the original faith..they were the ones who first persecuted the real christians..then constantine came along and came up with his own pagaan version of christianity..they deserved to be punished. that is not promoting violence..it is promoting the fact that justice has to be done to ensure peace and stability and order..not debauchery and brutality.
http://www.medievalcrusades.com/crusadesbegin.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
Here r some interesting passages to read
The origins of the crusades lie in Western developments earlier in the Middle Ages, as well as the deteriorating situation of the Byzantine Empire. The breakdown of the Carolingian empire in the later 9th century, combined with the relative stabilization of local European borders after the Christianization of the Vikings, Slavs and Magyars, meant that there was an entire class of warriors who now had very little to do but fight among themselves and terrorize the peasant population. The Church tried to stem this violence with the Peace and Truce of God movements, forbidding violence against certain people at certain times of the year. This was somewhat successful, but trained warriors always needed an outlet for their violence. A plea for help from the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I in opposing Muslim attacks thus fell on ready ears.
One later outlet was the Reconquista in Spain, which at times occupied Spanish knights and some mercenaries from elsewhere in Europe in the fight aganist the Islamic Moors. In 1063, Pope Alexander II had given papal blessing to Spanish Christians in their wars against the Muslims, granting both a papal standard (the vexillum sancti Petri) and an indulgence to those who were killed in battle
A turning point in western attitudes towards the east came in the year 1009, when the Fatimid caliph of Cairo, al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, had the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem destroyed. His successor permitted the Byzantine Empire to rebuild it under stringent circumstances, and pilgrimage was again permitted, but many stories began to be circulated in the West about the cruelty of Muslims toward Christian pilgrims; these rumors then played an important role in the development of the crusades later in the century.
The year was 1095 CE, William the Conqueror had united England under one crown 30 years earlier. The French had been dividing properties amongst their sons for generations, causing bloodshed between brothers over small pieces of real estate. In reaction, Pope Urban II expanded "The Truce of God", which outlawed fighting from Sunday to Wednesday, and banned fighting involving priests, monks, women, laborers and merchants on any day of the week. Italy was a collection of city-states, constantly being overrun by invading hordes, the latest of which were the Normans, who had just started to become "civilized".
There was also the Byzantine empire, ruling from Constantinople, whose emperor at this time was Alexius Comnenus. To his East, the Turks were rapidly encroaching on his empire, and had begun attacking pilgrims on their way to - and in - Jerusalem, causing him great distress. He wrote to his friend Robert, the Count of Flanders, in 1093, telling him about supposed atrocities committed by the Turks on the Christian pilgrims, and Robert passed this letter on to Pope Urban II. Urban, an opportunist, saw this as a perfect way to solve some of his local problems. He personally promoted a Holy Crusade to reclaim the Holy Lands from the barbarian Turks. Thus, the First Crusade was launched in 1096 CE
First crusade
Needless to say, Peter's Quest was doomed. They behaved poorly along the route, thieving food and ransacking homes for supplies. The worst was the persecution of the Jews before even leaving Europe.Once in Anatolia, Peter's followers felt it was time to start Crusading in earnest, torturing, pillaging and massacring indiscriminately. However, as it turned out, most of their victims were Byzantine Christians who lived in and around Nicaea.
After the conquer of jerusalemNo Jews were spared either. The Crusaders, in their fury, slaughtered all. Moslems in the Dome, or Jews in their Synagogue, all were killed without regard.
Antioch
When no one but the Crusaders were left alive, they proceeded to the Holy Sepulchre to give thanksBy the end of the evening of July 3, 1098, blood soaked the city streets. Every Turk was killed. In their zeal, many Christians were slain also.
Tis is really just an war between muslim and christian. The muslim conquer the Byzantine Empire, and christian decide to attack them and conquer the territories for himself. Most of the attack by crusader r not on liberating these countries, but by gaining other territories for themselves. The christian want to expand its power by using force and attack nearby countries. U say muslims r evil, but clearly they r saying christians r the evil ones. They totally wiped out the whole muslim and jews race whenever they succeed in conquering these cities. Every single one of them die. And embarrasingly, these crusaders even attack one another during this history. It manage to gain territories from muslim during those years, but it was all lost back to them in 90 years. All this made the jews and muslim having a hardened stand against christainity. All in all, it was described as a dark historyif you don't believe what i stated..i dare you to reseach around and prove me wrong.
I have researched and believe to have give ample evidence of the problems of witch hunting and crusaders. Why don't u show me some research materials on the benefits of these parctices from NON-CHRISTIAN sources ? -
Cut all the christian bullshit dont peach here if uou do want to peach become a pastor
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u must be joking... why cant they sell WWE live tickets instead?Originally posted by FireIce:if we partner CHC to sell Premier Memberships, i wonder how will it turn out
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thats why i said, being led by evil don't make one any less evil.Originally posted by fallin:You know how powerful the church was in those days,its a known fact,the crusaders werent exactly pure in intention to liberate the holy land, some wanted riches,some wanted fame,some wanted adventure. Again, human decsions propelled by non-religious reasons can't be blamed on the religion.
there are so many different interpretations of the bible, and because we are less than a perfect being, the interpretations are always deviated from the original meanings.
THATS why, coming back to the topic, there are people who think CHC is not really representing a church body correctly. -
Ya they not representing a church body correctly and they will notOriginally posted by ronnie_2600:thats why i said, being led by evil don't make one any less evil.
there are so many different interpretations of the bible, and because we are less than a perfect being, the interpretations are always deviated from the original meanings.
THATS why, coming back to the topic, there are people who think CHC is not really representing a church body correctly. -
anybody who feels threatened will naturally act to defend themselves. why not talk about alexander the great? he virtually butchered everything in his way. why not talk about the turks? they were the power hungry ones who wanted to control asia minor. and the crusades wasn't purely on christian muslim conflict..the catholic church wanted to make use of it to fight the orthodox church in byzantium and vice versa..and why believe everything wikipedia says? don't you have an opinion or a mind of your own? no wonder you're called stupid arse smart.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I have researched and believe to have give ample evidence of the problems of witch hunting and crusaders. Why don't u show me some research materials on the benefits of these parctices from NON-CHRISTIAN sources ? -
anybody who feels threatened will naturally act to defend themselves. why not talk about alexander the great? he virtually butchered everything in his way. why not talk about the turks? they were the power hungry ones who wanted to control asia minor. and the crusades wasn't purely on christian muslim conflict..the catholic church wanted to make use of it to fight the orthodox church in byzantium and vice versa..and why believe everything wikipedia says? don't you have an opinion or a mind of your own? no wonder you're called stupid arse smart.
Wat happened to your witch hunt ? U decided it was already a lost cause ? Self defend ? When they start a war which is still thousands of miles away and kill off even surrendering enemies ? U talk about alexander the great, and he did butcher a lot of people. But they r just soldiers, not girls, old men or children. For crusaders, it is extremely brutal as all men, girls, children, old men r killed just because of their religion. Which battle is tat bad ? Even when the japanese conquered singapore, they didn't go around and kill off every single chinese even though they hate them.
Why believe wat wikipedia says ? Why not ? It did give a good reliable and fair account on almost everything it had written in it. I thought I have given u 2 links for the crusader as well. SO these 2 links r wrong ? I thought u challenge me to prove it wrong ? i did and u r not happy about it ? Wat links have u given out yourself ? Can u take the challenge and give me a link tat was non-christian yet said tat crusaders and witch hunting was right ? Maybe everyone is wrong except christian links.. If u wanna live in self denial, I have nothing to say. If u wanna resort to personal attack on my nick, please feel free to do so... it just make u look worse... -
uh unfortunately, u do know that many points stupidissmart points out is right and more than valid. no need to get defensive if they've done nothing wrong in the 1s place.Originally posted by vito_corleone:anybody who feels threatened will naturally act to defend themselves. why not talk about alexander the great? he virtually butchered everything in his way. why not talk about the turks? they were the power hungry ones who wanted to control asia minor. and the crusades wasn't purely on christian muslim conflict..the catholic church wanted to make use of it to fight the orthodox church in byzantium and vice versa..and why believe everything wikipedia says? don't you have an opinion or a mind of your own? no wonder you're called stupid arse smart. -
gosh its impossible to argue with someone as moronic as you..you didnt even bother to research and cross refrence..alexander DID BUTCHER EVERYBODY. and who said i didnt care about the witch hunt? just because some christians killed witches u say its bad..what about the minority muslims who kill people thru terrorism? are you saying that all muslims are evil just like u claim how violent christianity is? why the heck should i believe only wikipedia? how can i be sure that the articles are not false and biased or inaccurate? did wiki send u a personla guarentee saying all info is accurate? have u known the creator for years? for what valid reason should i trust them? dude you are the one thats in self denial..its extremists like you that create hate in this world by making attacks on religeous groups. get a life and some attitude improvement man.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Wat happened to your witch hunt ? U decided it was already a lost cause ? Self defend ? When they start a war which is still thousands of miles away and kill off even surrendering enemies ? U talk about alexander the great, and he did butcher a lot of people. But they r just soldiers, not girls, old men or children. For crusaders, it is extremely brutal as all men, girls, children, old men r killed just because of their religion. Which battle is tat bad ? Even when the japanese conquered singapore, they didn't go around and kill off every single chinese even though they hate them.
Why believe wat wikipedia says ? Why not ? It did give a good reliable and fair account on almost everything it had written in it. I thought I have given u 2 links for the crusader as well. SO these 2 links r wrong ? I thought u challenge me to prove it wrong ? i did and u r not happy about it ? Wat links have u given out yourself ? Can u take the challenge and give me a link tat was non-christian yet said tat crusaders and witch hunting was right ? Maybe everyone is wrong except christian links.. If u wanna live in self denial, I have nothing to say. If u wanna resort to personal attack on my nick, please feel free to do so... it just make u look worse... -
most attacks on ANY religious groups i've seen all come from.... Christians. why do u think so many ppl are anti-christians now?Originally posted by vito_corleone:gosh its impossible to argue with someone as moronic as you..you didnt even bother to research and cross refrence..alexander DID BUTCHER EVERYBODY. and who said i didnt care about the witch hunt? just because some christians killed witches u say its bad..what about the minority muslims who kill people thru terrorism? are you saying that all muslims are evil just like u claim how violent christianity is? why the heck should i believe only wikipedia? how can i be sure that the articles are not false and biased or inaccurate? did wiki send u a personla guarentee saying all info is accurate? have u known the creator for years? for what valid reason should i trust them? dude you are the one thats in self denial..its extremists like you that create hate in this world by making attacks on religeous groups. get a life and some attitude improvement man.
go look at what some christian just said:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=111467
what a wonderful signature he has too. the irony.
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most? geesh dude, can u tell me how many is "most"? just because of an online minority u stereotype us as a group? just because one guy made some bad comment and u equate him with the rest? its just as good as saying all muslims are evil because some muslims bombed places. i on the other hand seem to notice that the "anti" thing is strongest with the anti muslim and anti jew stuff going on..when have u ever seen an "anti-christian" protest on tv?Originally posted by HENG@:most attacks on ANY religious groups i've seen all come from.... Christians. why do u think so many ppl are anti-christians now?
go look at what some christian just said:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=111467
what a wonderful signature he has too. the irony. -
not just the online minority. lots of ppl offline who do that as well. but since they r offline, how do i present u evidence? just because i can only present evidence from an online example doesn't mean my experience with Xtians like that r limited to one individual online. and then I don't suppose you really think about God's teachings about forgiveness do you? I saw your comment, and much as U've stated it's from a non-religious point of view, it seems that u have much catching up with God's teachings to do.Originally posted by vito_corleone:most? geesh dude, can u tell me how many is "most"? just because of an online minority u stereotype us as a group? just because one guy made some bad comment and u equate him with the rest? its just as good as saying all muslims are evil because some muslims bombed places. i on the other hand seem to notice that the "anti" thing is strongest with the anti muslim and anti jew stuff going on..when have u ever seen an "anti-christian" protest on tv? -
gosh its impossible to argue with someone as moronic as you..
Thank you. I guess the readers through all these replies should know by now
gosh its impossible to argue with someone as moronic as you..you didnt even bother to research and cross refrence..alexander DID BUTCHER EVERYBODY. and who said i didnt care about the witch hunt? just because some christians killed witches u say its bad..what about the minority muslims who kill people thru terrorism? are you saying that all muslims are evil just like u claim how violent christianity is? why the heck should i believe only wikipedia? how can i be sure that the articles are not false and biased or inaccurate? did wiki send u a personla guarentee saying all info is accurate? have u known the creator for years? for what valid reason should i trust them? dude you are the one thats in self denial..its extremists like you that create hate in this world by making attacks on religeous groups. get a life and some attitude improvement man.
Really ? he butchered everyone ? i thought he was famous for selling them as slavery to earn money ? Selling the people as slaves is still better than killing them. Please show me some sources tat show him killing off the whole city of people. I have one tat shows he sell them as slaves here
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8740/Alexander.htm
Some christians kill some witches ? U mean A LOT of christians kill THOUSANDS of "witches" for 300 years. U claim terrorism is cruel, but witch hunting and crusaders r also cruel. In fact I believe thousands of people killing thousands of children and old folks r more cruel. If u understand why terrorism tat kill people r despisable, u will understand why witch hunting and crusader r shameful. BTW, another striking difference between muslim terrorism and christian crusader/witch hunt
Muslim leaders throughout the world condemned these terrorists attacks. Christians leaders encouraged acts like witch hunts/crusaders.
WHy believe wikipedia ? Alright...how about
http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/features/forfarwitches.htm
tales of torture and wat type of women were prosecuted
Witches were generally accepted to be women. They were usually poor women with no family to offer protection. They were widows like Katherine Porter or young women such as Elspeth Bruce. Any women who was a little different and who lived on the fringes of respectable, church going society could find herself accused if the climate was right. This would include anyone who had a squint, regarded as the evil eye, or who suffered from epilepsy, considered to be possession by the devil. Midwives were often accused. If they could bring life into the world, they might decide to take life out of this world. The same applied to women with a knowledge of herbal medicine.
Confessions were not freely obtained from witch suspects. It was common to use what we would now call torture to get confessions of guilt from the accused. Any museum in any Scottish burgh will have thumbscrews and a branks, or scoldÂ’s bridle as it is also known, a device for depressing the tongue and keeping suspects quiet. There were also a number of more subtle tortureÂ’s used on Scottish witch suspects such as waking and light deprivation. In "waking" or sleep deprivation witch suspects were deliberately kept from sleeping. Local guards took turns to stay in the tolbooth with the suspects. If the women fell asleep it was the job of the guards to march the women up and down the prison to keep them from sleeping. This process continued until they made a confession. After a number of nights without rest people would do anything to be allowed to sleep. It can also cause hallucinations. Light deprivation can have much the same effect. Although it was winter the women were not allowed a candle to see by or a fire to warm themselves. If they had access to a naked flame the witch hunters believed that they would use their magical powers to summon the devil to set them free.
http://65.109.176.35/warmcove/morningstar/chapter8.html
The Reformation did not convert the people of Europe to orthodox Christianity through preaching and catechisms alone. It was the 300 year period of witch-hunting from the fifteenth to the eighteenth century, what R.H. Robbins called "the shocking nightmare, the foulest crime and deepest shame of western civilization,"(1) that ensured the European abandonment of the belief in magic. The Church created the elaborate concept of devil worship and then, used the persecution of it to wipe out dissent, subordinate the individual to authoritarian control, and openly denigrate women.
Christians found fault with women on all sorts of counts. An historian notes that thirteenth century preachers
...denounced women on the one hand for... the lascivious and carnal provocation of their garments, and on the other hand for being over- industrious, too occupied with children and housekeeping, too earthbound to give due thought to divine things
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/union/oddities_union_2.shtml
For those accused of witchcraft ,sleep deprivation was used to entice them into answering questions about their practice. After three days of being awake, hallucinations would set in and the will to resist crumbled. The confessions extracted from them often revealed bizarre hallucinogenic scenes such as flying, changing into animals, meeting the devil and taking part in witchesÂ’ sabbaths.
None of which were real, but where enough on their own to convict a witch, especially during times of panic.
SO all of them r false ? U still can't show me anything tat is NON-CHRISTIAN tat show witch hunt is good. Do u trust BBC and Wikepedia now ? Or u don't trust anybody except your pastor ?
Perhaps it is religious extremists tat create so much problem in this world. Maybe u should be the one tat should start to reflect if everything u heard from churches etc r real. -
i trust neither bbc or wikipedia to bring me reliable news..i trust discovery channel and national geographic..u want evidence of alexander butchering everyone? go watch NGC or DC..its all taken from interviews with some of the most prominent historians and proven 100% correct. as for the witch hunts..strange..hw come u don't mention the inquisition where MILLIONS of innocent non-catholics were mindlessly and wantonly slaughtered by the catholic church? by the end of the inquisition there had been virtually no non-catholics left in spain, portugal or france. the spanish even sent out the spanish armada to invade protestant england, compared to the witch hunts..that is nothing..and tell me..if there were sinister witches living in your area who kidnapped and murdered people..would you go all out to put a stop to it? i for one certainly will. all info adapted from various NGC and DC documentaries from actual historical records.
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well just because a few hundred..lets say a few hundred christians do that..hey its their choice to speak their mind just like u hav the right to speak yours. and can u define which particular sector denomination of christianity they hate? there are many... as for the last part..you know what they say...no man is perfect..thats why i'm human and humans aren't perfect.Originally posted by HENG@:not just the online minority. lots of ppl offline who do that as well. but since they r offline, how do i present u evidence? just because i can only present evidence from an online example doesn't mean my experience with Xtians like that r limited to one individual online. and then I don't suppose you really think about God's teachings about forgiveness do you? I saw your comment, and much as U've stated it's from a non-religious point of view, it seems that u have much catching up with God's teachings to do. -
love thy fellow human. thats all i have to say to you.Originally posted by vito_corleone:well just because a few hundred..lets say a few hundred christians do that..hey its their choice to speak their mind just like u hav the right to speak yours. and can u define which particular sector denomination of christianity they hate? there are many... as for the last part..you know what they say...no man is perfect..thats why i'm human and humans aren't perfect. -
anyways, r u UK bound yet? or still deciding?
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err..sorry mate, dad dosen't wanna pay bond..still deciding..but meanwhile i'll be at alliance francaise...Originally posted by HENG@:anyways, r u UK bound yet? or still deciding? my o lvl results aint out yet so i cant go anywhere with shit prelim grades.