LKY is not only in self-denial, but also not humble.
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Anyway, anyone who does not agree with Caramon is self-delusional.Originally posted by dragg:i understand your statement 'i cannot agree more with chin eng'. but i am confused with your last comment.
all in all you agree with caramon too right?
No, I was telling Chin Eng that to Caramon, anyone who holds different views from him (Caramon) is deemed self-delusional by him (Caramon).
If you read Chin Eng's statement, he told Caramon that he is not delusional. That was in reply to that statement. -
Thanks caramon, a +1 for many people here
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I am not sure who you are addressing.... but if it is me... let me state that I do not believe that LKY is SOLELY responsible for the building of Singapore. I acknowledge that there are others. My point is, LKY has done a lot, which does not carry the implication that others didn't.Originally posted by SnowFlag:if you say it is LKY who built up singapore, then u dun know the history of singapore. Because in the past, there were many good ministers who helped to build up singapore.
One diff betw LKY n those past ministers, is that LKY uses politic for his family members to gain top positions in many ministries/GLC.
He, by nature, is not a very likable person. He is arrogant, sure... so are many individuals here, judging by their tones. I think, in a way, I am arrogant too. Humility in leadership is a good trait to have, but it is not a requirement.
His family? Aside for LHL, LHY and HC, who else are in ministries? His great uncle? cousins? pet-dog.... As long as these people has the required qualification and capability, let them be judged by that, not the family tree. End of the day, looking at the SEA region, any individual, regardless of how capable he is, as long as he is connected to a powerful person, he will NEVER be free from criticism. Is this a fair judgement to be placed on one, just because of his connections?
LKY is human. He is entitled to his shortcomings, just like you and I. Why pronounce judgement on what he is, why not what he has done? Sure he screwed up some, but also scored big time on others.
On the issue of banned books, we are not the only country with some unexplained skeletons in our closet.
Note this link http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/banned-books.html. Books are banned for various reasons even in various extremely democratic country. Politics is ONLY ONE of the many reasons why books are banned. Can't get your dosage "politically incorrect" publications? Just go to JB and you will find tons of stuff there. -
PM Lee, since becoming PM, has called for people to speak up, to have diverse views, to 'think out of the box' and even to dare to dream.. This call is laudable..
However, it is just that - a call..
Nothing concrete has been done to effect such views being aired.. Instead, we have seen recent examples of people being 'put in their place' for having just such views which the PM is encouraging..
Jamie Han was cast in a bad light in all our media.. One newspaper here even had a headline "Why So Rude?" - referring to Jamie Han.. One NMP was 'reported' to the speaker of parliament for using 'unparliamentary words'.. And now we have blogger Chen who is threatened with legal action for speaking up his mind..
Without any substantial changes to our defamation laws, civil servants will be tempted to use legal actions against those whom they consider to have defamed them or their institutions..
All this will result in people who will continue to be silenced.. And talk of building up a civil society will come to naught..
So, if PM Lee is really serious about allowing diverse views, he should start at the heart of the problem which makes people reluctant to speak up - the defamation laws in Singapore..
Threatening to sue a blogger is silly.. And it goes against what the PM himself has called for..
It is time for PM Lee to show every Singaporean that he is really serious about wanting people to speak up and speak honestly..
Change the defamation laws.. -
The Singapore Prime MinisterÂ’s salary, as given in the Straits Times report on the Parliament proceedings in July 2000, is S$1,994,000 per year..
In addition, the SingaporeÂ’s Ministers awarded themselves 3.25 months bonus last year, not including the 13th month..
SingaporeÂ’s PM for yr 2000 salary was $1.994 x 3.25 = S$2.534 million = US$1.4699 million..
(Even if we exclude the 13th month)
Dictatorship and Autocracy in Singapore
By Tian Jie
The Epoch Times
May 03, 2005
It is very difficult for people who have never lived in Singapore to imagine and understand the nature of its dictatorship and autocracy. On the surface, it looks like Singapore has a democratic system and that people are granted the right to chose and vote. However, in actuality, it is a country with complete dictatorship and autocracy.
For a long period of time Singapore has been ruled by one political party. Currently among the 94 congressmen, there are only two elected members from opposition parties, so opposition parties do not have any opportunity to challenge the ruling party. Due to strict monitoring and threat by the government, most people dare not to or are even scared to be in touch with any of the opposition parties.
They are not willing to openly support the opposition parties. Therefore the opposition parties, in the political system of Singapore, are actually just an ornament for the outside world. It is a coat of democracy covering up its nature. The small number of people who dare to step forward and challenge the government, especially those who join the opposition parties to participate in the election, will simply be brought to court in the name for “slandering the system” because of some minor public speeches or immaterial articles they wrote.
The judicial system of Singapore basically obeys the government. Cases related to challenging the government or the political leaders rarely have any prospect of winning.
Members of the opposition parties, if sued, can predict that they will definitely lose their lawsuits under the judicial system controlled by the government. However, these unfortunate people, knowing clearly that they will not win, have to defend their cases again and again in court.
In addition to paying expensive legal fees for the lawsuits, they also need to face a huge penalty fee in the end. The lengthy legal procedures have turned most of them bankrupt. In one of the elections in the 90s, a famous lawyer joined one of the opposition parties, the ‘Workers Party’, to participate in the election. But his public speech in an election gathering was taken out of context.
He was sued by many members of the ruling party. That lawyer, in order to escape from the political persecution, left Singapore and settled down in Australia.
In the one or two districts of the opposition parties, people living there can feel the pressure and boundaries. For example, the development of civil construction, education and even transportation is all under control of the districts of the ruling party. This is equivalent to silent revenge and suppression.
Due to these reasons, several former districts of the opposition parties were forced to vote for the candidates of the ruling party in the election. It is therefore more and more difficult for the opposition parties to maintain their foundations.
Singapore used to be totally against communism. Since late 1980s, it established a diplomatic relationship with China and has become closer and closer to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). It now completely follows the CCP, seeks benefits from the CCP and conducts acts that are in the interest of the CCP. It is not hard to understand why the government of Singapore, disregarding its own image, has committed an evil deed by bringing two innocent Falun Gong practitioners to court and heavily punishing them for letting tourists and policemen know the truth of Falun Gong.
There are two major media organizations in Singapore. One is a newspaper organization, controlling all the newspapers in Singapore; and the other is a television organization, controlling most of the TV stations. Although the two groups are run independently on the surface, they are actually heavily influenced by the government.
It is rare to hear the voice of the opposition parties in local media. The opinions from the opposition parties are always put in the least obvious and the hidden places. It is rare to see or to hear dissatisfaction or negative comments toward government policies or leaders. In addition, the media in Singapore is heavily influenced by the CCP.
Accordingly, The Singapore United Times is the only overseas paper that is present in Mainland China. Even papers that are heavily influenced by the CCP, such as The Xing Pao Daily and The Ming Daily of Hong Kong and The World Daily of Taiwan, can not compare with it. In this situation, The Singapore United has to completely conform to the CCP. Any news that the CCP does not like cannot be published.
There is absolutely no news of the CCPÂ’s brutal persecution toward members of the democratic movements, Christians and Falun Gong members. A friend of mine told me once that he met one of the editors. He found out that the Chinese Embassy provides articles to The Singapore United on a regular basis.
The Singapore United is obliged to publish these articles and is forbidden to publish other articles, otherwise the paper would be banned in Mainland China. Once in a while, if the paper published some articles by mistake that the Chinese Embassy did not want to see published, the ambassadors would be furious. They would threaten the paper and then entice them with material benefits.
I did not plan to write this story but in the end decided to do so since I could not bear to see that these evil deeds committed by the Singapore government go uncovered. -
Jamie Han said this: "The truth of the matter is this: No matter how enlightened a despot is, ultimately, he'll turn into a tyrant if there are no checks and balances in place." http://singabloodypore.blogspot.com/2005/02/jamie-han.html
Blogger Chen's issue is NOT about speaking his mind. It's about opinions expressed that appear malicious and defamatory. There is no issue of SUING yet. Refer to press report on attempts by Philip Yeo to invite Chen for a tea session.
Definition of Defamation:
1. [n] an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
2. [n] a malicious attack
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=defamation
Freedom of Speech
[n] guaranteed by the 1st amendment to the US constitution
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
No where in the 1st Amendment is there a provision to use abusive and malicious terms on another person.
Slander
1. [n] an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
2. [n] words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
3. [v] charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone; "The journalists have defamed me!" "The article in the paper sullied my reputation"
Anyone wishing to hide under the cloak of "freedom of speech" should satisfy himself as to what exactly this freedom entails. Does it mean that this freedom allow oneself to name-call another person? Does it mean that this freedom allow oneself to make dubious claim of another person? and when opinions differ, does it give one the right to verbal abuse another person?
Members in the government making tons of money? Did they deny it?
I wonder if any of these neigh-sayers are willing to be an MP if the payment is a paltry sum? -
everybody remembers LKY but nobody remembers other pioneers like goh keng swee and the rest of the other ministers who did as much as LKY to help build singapore. they were good ministers but i guess they were horrible politicians.Originally posted by SnowFlag:if you say it is LKY who built up singapore, then u dun know the history of singapore. Because in the past, there were many good ministers who helped to build up singapore.
One diff betw LKY n those past ministers, is that LKY uses politic for his family members to gain top positions in many ministries/GLC. -
Originally posted by caramon:Singapore used to be totally against communism. Since late 1980s, it established a diplomatic relationship with China and has become closer and closer to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). It now completely follows the CCP, seeks benefits from the CCP and conducts acts that are in the interest of the CCP.
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The only time caramon talk some sense, ppl still continue to flame him. Anyway, all the loved leaders have died but LKY hasn't died yet. *sigh* The leaders that the ppl don't want them to die is died while the leader that ppl fear is still not died yet
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Time puts LKY in mag, along with some other far better pp.
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PAP justifies the high salaries of the MPs by saying that a high salary (OUTRAGEOUSLY high IMO) prevents the MPs from accepting bribes and therefore makes the country less corrupted.
If the MPs had to rely on high salaries to prevent corruption, they should not be MPs in the first place and Singaporeans should seriously consider whether they should vote for these people in the next elections. Then again, most Singaporeans don't even get the chance to vote due to the redrawing of electoral boundaries or the suppression of opposition. Even in the face of the economic downturn, MPs salaries were increased. You really need to re-examine the motivations of these people. Sure, give them enough money to live comfortably. But come on, $1 million dollars a year? That's way too much. MPs in Australia and USA earn a tenth of Singapore MPs' salaries and I don't think Singapore MPs do any better than foreign ones. Conversely, the management of a smaller country like Singapore with such a totalitarian system is much easier than in real democracies where parties have to REALLY fight for their positions and not slither into office like the PAP by scaring off the opposition.
Something drastic has to be done to shake up the whole system. If there is no popular uprising, the government will just continue on their totalitarian ways and Singapore will not make any political progress. -
you're rite dude...but the salary part i'll have to disagree wif u...yea if u need a high salary to prevent a official from straying to corruption as a choice to earn more money then it's pretty stupid but look on the other side of the coin:Originally posted by Weirdo80:PAP justifies the high salaries of the MPs by saying that a high salary (OUTRAGEOUSLY high IMO) prevents the MPs from accepting bribes and therefore makes the country less corrupted.
If the MPs had to rely on high salaries to prevent corruption, they should not be MPs in the first place and Singaporeans should seriously consider whether they should vote for these people in the next elections. Then again, most Singaporeans don't even get the chance to vote due to the redrawing of electoral boundaries or the suppression of opposition. Even in the face of the economic downturn, MPs salaries were increased. You really need to re-examine the motivations of these people. Sure, give them enough money to live comfortably. But come on, $1 million dollars a year? That's way too much. MPs in Australia and USA earn a tenth of Singapore MPs' salaries and I don't think Singapore MPs do any better than foreign ones. Conversely, the management of a smaller country like Singapore with such a totalitarian system is much easier than in real democracies where parties have to REALLY fight for their positions and not slither into office like the PAP by scaring off the opposition.
Something drastic has to be done to shake up the whole system. If there is no popular uprising, the government will just continue on their totalitarian ways and Singapore will not make any political progress.
there's no certainty in life and i don tink anyone can take a politican's promise of being corruption-free be4,during and after his term of office for granted...so maybe tat's the reason y for the outrageously high salaries they're earning...
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Yup, we should all expect our MPs to work for free or at best a paltry sum, give up their professional career for the sake of the people. What a noble cause!Originally posted by Weirdo80:If the MPs had to rely on high salaries to prevent corruption, they should not be MPs in the first place and Singaporeans should seriously consider whether they should vote for these people in the next elections.
Not to mention that these people will now have to work almost 24/7, sacrifice their family time over the weekends, have their family and person life scrutinized by the unforgiving public. Wow what a wonderful job.... think of the free food they get during the constituency functions.
Any takers???? -
Errm.. To those who are unhappy with Lee Kwan Yew, just remember that he is about 82 this year.
Just endure a little more. *Waits for flames* -
Originally posted by Cindyfeh:Warning.
Never talk abut LKY to taxi drivers. You will get heated arguments from them. What heated argument ???? I Love Lee Kuan Yew , and his quotes ! -
what a mean thing to say. dont be surprised if he outlives you!!!Originally posted by lwflee:Errm.. To those who are unhappy with Lee Kwan Yew, just remember that he is about 82 this year.
Just endure a little more. *Waits for flames* -
Huh!?
Who said anything about outliving anyone?
But for argument's sake, i will respond: I can't really be surprised if i am dead can i? -
When a country is developing , the leader has to be a b*stard sometimes , or else , his subordinates and citizens will s*h*i*t on his head la .
By being b*stard , he stamped his authority to get the things done . Or esle the things will never be done .
Without his hard fists in Singapore , who knows how bad bribery has went .
He overall did a magnificent job , he did make some mistakes , he's human afterall , which human doesn't make mistakes ?
So stop those nonsense about MM Lee . -
does the saying, good ppl die young have any indication on this thread?Originally posted by dragg:what a mean thing to say. dont be surprised if he outlives you!!! -
I dunno, but i hope it doesn't in real life because i am a good person.Originally posted by kops21:does the saying, good ppl die young have any indication on this thread? 
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is there such a saying? you mean 'tian1du4ying1cai2'?Originally posted by kops21:does the saying, good ppl die young have any indication on this thread? -
Why are you not reading the entire post? Are all pro-PAP people selective readers, just like their government? I said give them COMFORTABLE salaries, but not outrageous ones.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Yup, we should all expect our MPs to work for free or at best a paltry sum, give up their professional career for the sake of the people. What a noble cause!
Not to mention that these people will now have to work almost 24/7, sacrifice their family time over the weekends, have their family and person life scrutinized by the unforgiving public. Wow what a wonderful job.... think of the free food they get during the constituency functions.
Any takers????
Sheesh!
If you think PAP leaders are scrutinised, then you haven't even seen American or Australian politics. Who dares scruntinise the PAP for fear of being brought to court?
Also, I would like documentary proof that the MPs work almost 24/7. Hey, I'm a computer programmer, I work like hell and sacrifice my time with family too. I have master degrees from the same unis that the MPs went to. Am I also going to get over a million bucks?! -
1. Agree to a certain extent.Originally posted by Poolman:
1. When a country is developing , the leader has to be a b*stard sometimes , or else , his subordinates and citizens will s*h*i*t on his head la .
By being b*stard , he stamped his authority to get the things done . Or esle the things will never be done .
Without his hard fists in Singapore , who knows how bad bribery has went .
He overall did a magnificent job , he did make some mistakes , he's human afterall , which human doesn't make mistakes ?
2. So stop those nonsense about MM Lee .
2. Disagree. -
FYI Singapore is no longer classified as a developing country.Originally posted by Poolman:When a country is developing , the leader has to be a b*stard sometimes , or else , his subordinates and citizens will s*h*i*t on his head la . -
i good boi....i think i die young....for being too good....Originally posted by lwflee:I dunno, but i hope it doesn't in real life because i am a good person.