Church Goers
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Originally posted by M©+square:*
What do you think a church goer should wear then could be qualified to worship God?
Cheers
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oei, wrong religion lah~!!
Originally posted by Honeybunz: -
I think churchgoers needn't cover themselves up completely in order to dress modestly.
I agree that modesty in dressing is something about which it is fairly difficult to be obejctive; but think that it is safe to say that any form of dress that exposes or accentuates parts of the body that are likely to provoke arousal if they are not concealed, should be deemed immodest.
It follows therefore that by the definition I have just adopted, there will be many forms of dress which could still be judged modest and which needn't entail that a person who is clad in them, should be covered up completely.
I'd like to respond to one or two other points that some others (the Christians) have raised:
1) It is true that Christians sometimes sin. However, when a Christian sins by dressing immodestly and when, after realising that she or he has indeed dressed immodestly, doesn't feel in the least bit inclined to repent of his or her sin in this regard, then I don't think that, if you're a Christian yourself, you should be making light of such a state of affairs. I believe that any sin of which you should be unwilling to repent, is likely to portend that you are not truly a Christian even if you are nonetheless someone who believes himself already to have been made a Christian.
2) I don't think that anybody should be making the claim that because his so-called 'church' features a pastor who in his opinion is able to preach 'good sermons', then his so-called 'church' must therefore be deemed automatically superior to a more manifestly morally objectionable so-called 'church.
3) Many so-called 'conservative' churches preach an ideology that is clearly designed to cater to people who have it all, and who, after having it all, want now to be assured that they can continue having it all after they die. Such 'churches' are unwelcoming to marginalised folk, the poor, socially marginalised and so forth, and they have their own peculiar set of problems such as the various problems posed by the horrendous pride of their members.
4) I am personally disgusted by the people who look down on the bar-top dancers and yet attempte to 'come up in life' in what they construe to be ways that have found favour with God, and who accordingly hanker after the kind of 'conservative' sermons that act as a sop to their inclinations in this regard. Such people are as much to be reprobated as any morally loose bar-top dancer, if not even more so.
Sorry, but I am quite sickened. -
i go to Agape Community Church at Tanjong Pagar.
Used to be from other churches. This current one I'm attending is small but the pastors are very helpful.
I think there's no reason why you can't dress up for Sunday. It's understood you want to dress your best, that's fine. It's also common sense that clothes which are too transparent or too little, you can keep it for your dating trips out rite.
Sometimes looking good is not about showing off half your chest or half you butt cheeks. I think there's no strict rule but when you enter a holy place, be it church or other religious ceremonies, just wear appropriately la. -
Used to be from other churches. This current one I'm attending is small but the pastors are very helpful.
I'm a Christian and I have a big problem with the view expressed above.
I think there's no reason why you can't dress up for Sunday. It's understood you want to dress your best, that's fine. It's also common sense that clothes which are too transparent or too little, you can keep it for your dating trips out rite.
Sometimes looking good is not about showing off half your chest or half you butt chicks. I think there's no strict rule but when you enter a holy place, be it church or other religious ceremonies, just wear appropriately la.
1) I can think of plenty of reasons why it would be wrong to be actuated by a desire to 'dress up for Sunday'. What if your desire in this regard is motivated by vanity, a wish to outshine some other person, or simply to be perceived as good-looking by your peers? I can't help but think that such a desire (given what it has been motivated by) would detract from one's ability fully to come to grips with the ultimate reason why we are supposed to be gathering on Sunday for corporate worship. This being the case, and if you know the desire to be objectionable on the grounds that I have just outlined, then it would follow that you would morally be bound to do your utmost so as to prevent this desire from having any influence over you.
2) I can't make sense of the statement that 'clothes that are too transparent or too little' (given that this statement has come from a so-called 'Christian' who is attending supposedly a church staffed by 'helpful pastors), can be 'kept for dating trips'. Is this person trying to say that it would be morally acceptable for her to wear the kind of clothes that would be judged immodest if they were to be worn to the services of her church on Sundays, to or for 'dating trips'. This person is deceived and deluded.
3) She enlightens us very kindly as to what would be exactly meant by 'looking good', making it clear to us that it does not entail 'showing off half your chest or half your butt chicks'. Can a Christian be believed to speak as she does? Does she not even realise that this very statement of hers is an instance of lewd speech, and would be recognised as such by even the respectable representatives of the other mainline religious faiths?
4) When has Christianity ever been about 'looking good'? This deluded individual has probably never looked at a crucifix before. Is Christ hanging battered and bleeding from a Cross 'good-looking' or 'kawaii'??
Like I said above, I am totally sickened.
Mr Fugue, keep up the good work! -
Dear SirOriginally posted by MrBach:I'm a Christian and I have a big problem with the view expressed above.
1) I can think of plenty of reasons why it would be wrong to be actuated by a desire to 'dress up for Sunday'. What if your desire in this regard is motivated by vanity, a wish to outshine some other person, or simply to be perceived as good-looking by your peers? I can't help but think that such a desire (given what it has been motivated by) would detract from one's ability fully to come to grips with the ultimate reason why we are supposed to be gathering on Sunday for corporate worship. This being the case, and if you know the desire to be objectionable on the grounds that I have just outlined, then it would follow that you would morally be bound to do your utmost so as to prevent this desire from having any influence over you.
2) I can't make sense of the statement that 'clothes that are too transparent or too little' (given that this statement has come from a so-called 'Christian' who is attending supposedly a church staffed by 'helpful pastors), can be 'kept for dating trips'. Is this person trying to say that it would be morally acceptable for her to wear the kind of clothes that would be judged immodest if they were to be worn to the services of her church on Sundays, to or for 'dating trips'. This person is deceived and deluded.
3) She enlightens us very kindly as to what would be exactly meant by 'looking good', making it clear to us that it does not entail 'showing off half your chest or half your butt chicks'. Can a Christian be believed to speak as she does? Does she not even realise that this very statement of hers is an instance of lewd speech, and would be recognised as such by even the respectable representatives of the other mainline religious faiths?
4) When has Christianity ever been about 'looking good'? This deluded individual has probably never looked at a crucifix before. Is Christ hanging battered and bleeding from a Cross 'good-looking' or 'kawaii'??
Like I said above, I am totally sickened.
Mr Fugue, keep up the good work!
I'm rather sickened by your post too. This is because God has teached us not to be judgemental.
1) God has never stated vanity is wrong. The desire to look good is NOT wrong. SELF-LOVE is. Did YOU not know? That surprises me as I was rather impressed by your 1st post. Quite obviously you do not know the difference of both,.
2) Being a christian IS NOT A RELIGION. It's having a RELATIONSHIP with God, HE is your Heavenly Father, your friend, not someone who looks down at you at the way you dress.
3) I'm just speaking layman terms? Trying to give some examples of what I have seen. Not targeting specifically. What do you not know about transparent clouds? Meaning : Please ensure your inner wear is not a free show for all. As the bible says, Do not attempt to wear clothes to a holy place that tempts the opposite sex. Surely you know that?
3) Er, why should butt or breasts be lewd language? Have you not seen the love poem in the bible? That's very strange as the word butt is a shorter version of "buttocks". And a woman's body or breasts are made very beautiful by God. There's nothing disgusting about that. Religious faiths? You think God is a God that just provides us a religion. It takes great faith for what Christ did on the cross. It takes great love for us for Him to do that. You think it's just some religion?!
- I'm just trying to say, it's common sense. What can you wear to church. And I did not say it's morally right to wear transparent clothes out for dating? Hello? But if you have sexier pieces or a nice dress which you husband adore you in.....what's wrong with that? You're supposed to take care of yourself and look good for your husband too. That is also in the bible. What I was trying to say is merely if you have some clothes i.e which you (with common sense) know is a little too tight for church, keep it for other outing trips. Are you saying ladies in swimwear or bikinis at the beach are indecent? Isn't obvious as an adult you should know what's appropriate for the situation/ place. Does it mean those ladies have no moral sense you O' judgemental soul.
Pardon me if you misunderstood my post. Apparently you have no decency to ask. -
Seems like no one wish to answer my question.
Well. Christians christians, different people different standards. -
I alreadi eng xiu you liaoz mah...Originally posted by M©+square:Seems like no one wish to answer my question.
Well. Christians christians, different people different standards. -
What was the question? I read through the whole thread but couldn't really find your supposing question that is not answered...
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1) "God has never stated vanity is wrong. The desire to look good is NOT wrong. SELF-LOVE is."
Response:
Vanity has always been regarded as a sin by Classical Christian thinkers like Augustine and Aquinas. I don't have to cut-and-paste from the Bible to establish this for your benefit.
The 'desire to look good' for the wrong reasons is definitely wrong. In my post, I made it clear that I had defined vanity in terms of the goal that a peson desirous of looking good, might be conceived of as having intended for his good appearance (once it has been achieved) to be made to serve.
In any case, the mere act of loving oneself is in fact not wrong, for Christ has commanded us to love our neighbours as ourselves.
So it is you who have misapprehended my post.
2) "Being a christian IS NOT A RELIGION. It's having a RELATIONSHIP with God, HE is your Heavenly Father, your friend, not someone who looks down at you at the way you dress. "
Response:
Being a Christian may not be a religion, but that would be because a religion denotes a system of beliefs and what I am cannot simply be meaningfully characterised as a system of beliefs.
Christianity is a religion in the sense that it denotes a system of distinctive beliefs which all Christians would have to adhere to, and this would be true even though it is undoubtedly the case that professing Christianity (or even actually assenting to all of the beliefs that Christianity embraces) would not be enough to make one a Christian.
You simply don't understand language and how to deploy words meaningfully.
And as to God being 'your Heavenly Father', let me make simply the point that God is also our judge and that one of categories of persons whom He is going to judge is that comprising people who falsely profess Christianity - people who make no bones about calling God their 'Heavenly Father' and yet wink at all manner of immoral practices, justifying them in the name of what they take to be their freedom to do as they please without fearing in the least that their relationship with God shall ever be likely to be endangered.
"3) I'm just speaking layman terms? Trying to give some examples of what I have seen. Not targeting specifically. What do you not know about transparent clouds? Meaning : Please ensure your inner wear is not a free show for all. As the bible says, Do not attempt to wear clothes to a holy place that tempts the opposite sex. Surely you know that?"
Response:
Stop lying. You explicitly stated that clothes which it would be unacceptable to wear to church might nevertheless be acceptable if they were to be worn for 'dating trips'.
Don't make me quote you verbatim again, liar.
4) Er, why should butt or *^$#$^s be lewd language?
Response:
'Butt cheeks' is a lewd term, but I admit that given your general ignorance about language you may not have realised that it would be perceived in that fashion by more civilised persons.
5) "Have you not seen the love poem in the bible?"
Response:
Don't compare the Song of Songs (which is intended to symbolise the love that Christ has for the Church) with your pathetic lewd ramblings.
The truly beautiful woman is the one who is holy and not the one who in whatever fashion may be considered physically beautiful (as the psalms themselves make clear).
Women's bodies are certainly beautiful (as are the bodies of men) but what you fail to realise is that our nature is so perverted that it would be impossible for many of us to contemplate some of the physical aspects of the beauty of women without being thereby tempted to sin; and this is why it is a sin to dress immodestly.
6) "But if you have sexier pieces or a nice dress which you husband adore you in.....what's wrong with that? You're supposed to take care of yourself and look good for your husband too."
Response:
What if the 'sexier pieces' that you say you are saving up to wear for your husband (and which you think that you are supposed to wear so as to look good for him) are of such a character that they are likely so to inflame his lust, that he forgets about the primary purpose for which sex was instituted and so induces you to perform acts that even in Singapore would be judged to be illegal?
In such a scenario, it would seem to me that you would be saddled with the moral responsibility of eschewing your use of lingerie (even if this is exclusively intended for your husband's viewing pleasure).
After all, if Christ bids us (hyperbolically) to gouge out our own eyes in the event they were ever to become to us an occasion for sinning, then you simply cannot assume that there are no circumstances in which Christ would not bid you to cast away your lingerie even if you have only ever deployed it (or are only ever intending to deploy it) for the purposes of causing yourself to look good for your husband.
7) " Are you saying ladies in swimwear or bikinis at the beach are indecent?"
Response:
Ladies in bikinis in public places are definitely guilty of immodestly exposing themselves from a Christian standpoint.
If you think otherwise (and especially if your church thinks otherwise), let it be known that I should truly feel myself sickened on this score.
'O' judgemental soul. '
Response:
There is nothing wrong with judging behaviour; judging souls, however is reserved to God alone. -
Love one another la. Don't attack your own body. Haiyo....
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You may want to re-read the thread again.Originally posted by caleb_chiang:What was the question? I read through the whole thread but couldn't really find your supposing question that is not answered...
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you're not looking careful enuff.Originally posted by caleb_chiang:What was the question? I read through the whole thread but couldn't really find your supposing question that is not answered... -
Hey I did...
If it's regarding dress code then I believe that the question had been answered in a way or another. or is there another? -
good defence by MrBach.
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God is our heavenly Father, God is our judge also, it is a role he plays just like your daddy punish or reward(judging) u when u done something. I think it's a waste of time,energy plus not good for reptuation of christians to argue and quarrel or even fight about these things after so many long years. It does not achieve anything.
As humans, we are created with different creatives genes, everyon have different trength aqnd weakness,if we all follow a system and be the same, God will just create robots in the first place. A personal relationship with God means we have our own ongoing things with God cause everyone is experiencing different things in different periods of time in different countries. So a system of beliefs? I think not, what is important is to keep your side of the family of God, to not do anything that betrays your conscious.
Y? Can u attack another man? only if it needs to be done, or else why is there hell, why are ppl executed for murder or serious crimes? U cannot be soft hearted about certain things like evil. if u are attack aggressively by a robber, attack back, self defence mah, but u attack somebody for money, then u have to live with that guilt in your heart. We are suppose to do God work and live out his spirit of life, how can u do that if u are weak/narrow minded, indecsive and fearful?
The purpose of life is love and happiness. If dressing up nicely/presentable makes u happy, do it, live in a society must interact with ppl, unshaved long uncomby hair and dress in rags not nice rite. Hanging out at the beach, hot, so the wear of bikini suitable. Dancing at pub? sure have fun relax and dance and beware alot of ppl are going for ONS there, so be careful about spiked drinks and stuff. Always is that thin line which define good and evil. Last thing God taught is not to judge ppl, so i will respect ppl view's and replies and not slowly disect ppl post and pour my comments. Wun bother making replies to commments either. Enuff said already. -
Sir,Originally posted by MrBach:1) "God has never stated vanity is wrong. The desire to look good is NOT wrong. SELF-LOVE is."
Response:
Vanity has always been regarded as a sin by Classical Christian thinkers like Augustine and Aquinas. I don't have to cut-and-paste from the Bible to establish this for your benefit.
The 'desire to look good' for the wrong reasons is definitely wrong. In my post, I made it clear that I had defined vanity in terms of the goal that a peson desirous of looking good, might be conceived of as having intended for his good appearance (once it has been achieved) to be made to serve.
In any case, the mere act of loving oneself is in fact not wrong, for Christ has commanded us to love our neighbours as ourselves.
So it is you who have misapprehended my post.
2) "Being a christian IS NOT A RELIGION. It's having a RELATIONSHIP with God, HE is your Heavenly Father, your friend, not someone who looks down at you at the way you dress. "
Response:
Being a Christian may not be a religion, but that would be because a religion denotes a system of beliefs and what I am cannot simply be meaningfully characterised as a system of beliefs.
Christianity is a religion in the sense that it denotes a system of distinctive beliefs which all Christians would have to adhere to, and this would be true even though it is undoubtedly the case that professing Christianity (or even actually assenting to all of the beliefs that Christianity embraces) would not be enough to make one a Christian.
You simply don't understand language and how to deploy words meaningfully.
And as to God being 'your Heavenly Father', let me make simply the point that God is also our judge and that one of categories of persons whom He is going to judge is that comprising people who falsely profess Christianity - people who make no bones about calling God their 'Heavenly Father' and yet wink at all manner of immoral practices, justifying them in the name of what they take to be their freedom to do as they please without fearing in the least that their relationship with God shall ever be likely to be endangered.
"3) I'm just speaking layman terms? Trying to give some examples of what I have seen. Not targeting specifically. What do you not know about transparent clouds? Meaning : Please ensure your inner wear is not a free show for all. As the bible says, Do not attempt to wear clothes to a holy place that tempts the opposite sex. Surely you know that?"
Response:
Stop lying. You explicitly stated that clothes which it would be unacceptable to wear to church might nevertheless be acceptable if they were to be worn for 'dating trips'.
Don't make me quote you verbatim again, liar.
4) Er, why should butt or *^$#$^s be lewd language?
Response:
'Butt cheeks' is a lewd term, but I admit that given your general ignorance about language you may not have realised that it would be perceived in that fashion by more civilised persons.
5) "Have you not seen the love poem in the bible?"
Response:
Don't compare the Song of Songs (which is intended to symbolise the love that Christ has for the Church) with your pathetic lewd ramblings.
The truly beautiful woman is the one who is holy and not the one who in whatever fashion may be considered physically beautiful (as the psalms themselves make clear).
Women's bodies are certainly beautiful (as are the bodies of men) but what you fail to realise is that our nature is so perverted that it would be impossible for many of us to contemplate some of the physical aspects of the beauty of women without being thereby tempted to sin; and this is why it is a sin to dress immodestly.
6) "But if you have sexier pieces or a nice dress which you husband adore you in.....what's wrong with that? You're supposed to take care of yourself and look good for your husband too."
Response:
What if the 'sexier pieces' that you say you are saving up to wear for your husband (and which you think that you are supposed to wear so as to look good for him) are of such a character that they are likely so to inflame his lust, that he forgets about the primary purpose for which sex was instituted and so induces you to perform acts that even in Singapore would be judged to be illegal?
In such a scenario, it would seem to me that you would be saddled with the moral responsibility of eschewing your use of lingerie (even if this is exclusively intended for your husband's viewing pleasure).
After all, if Christ bids us (hyperbolically) to gouge out our own eyes in the event they were ever to become to us an occasion for sinning, then you simply cannot assume that there are no circumstances in which Christ would not bid you to cast away your lingerie even if you have only ever deployed it (or are only ever intending to deploy it) for the purposes of causing yourself to look good for your husband.
7) " Are you saying ladies in swimwear or bikinis at the beach are indecent?"
Response:
Ladies in bikinis in public places are definitely guilty of immodestly exposing themselves from a Christian standpoint.
If you think otherwise (and especially if your church thinks otherwise), let it be known that I should truly feel myself sickened on this score. 'O' judgemental soul. '
Response:
There is nothing wrong with judging behaviour; judging souls, however is reserved to God alone.
this is just what I wanted to say. There's no defence or offense here. We're not arguing a case. I have already said pardon me if I caused you to misunderstand. My so called lewd term can be called "bottom" too if it so distress you. I am at work. I tend to think I know what I mean, but type faster. I merely like I said again wanted to make things more light hearted so non-christians can know we won't be so judgemental over clothes but using common sense to know what is appropriate and not. You have no right to judge behaviour and call people a liar. That's verbal abuse. God will judge the righteous or nots - we just have to know if it's not right, don't follow after.
Everything has an extremes and I merely worry about taking bible out of context and to the extreme. Self- love is putting "I" in the centre of your heart not God. Vanity - there's a fine line between obsession with how you look and taking good care of your appearance.
Why pull the extreme of labelling my husband too? If I being with him for 5 years, and knowing he's a pervert and yet marry him, something must be up with me. Lingerie - is not a tool. By wearing nicer nightie for your husband is not against the law. Surely we all know what is set by Singapore's law? Why should he or I , both christian go against the law. You're quoting the extreme. Do you know what some have to go through in life even being a christian. You do not. Hence do not label others. what you think of others, others may think the same of you. And intimacy is between both couples, and since I do not go against the law, no reason to further explain. At least he knows I only belong to him and have not past history.
Swimwear - has many different kinds. Once again, I said to use common sense. There's those that are "too small" and too little like g-strings......and there's those that are 2 piece (which is considered bikini too) which are fine. It's really up to your discretion. Once you're a christian, you would know where to draw the line. You can't label people just because they wear bikinis. I can't say "oh that girl is morally loose" just because she wears a 2 piece.
I'm sorry i can't keep going to the specifics. Hence a lot of things are taking out of context. I just do not wish the bible to be extreme or out of context.
I admit I was initially angered so I am sorry. Whatever you like to say, I can't stop you. I can only pray that non-christians can be more discerning too. I have no wish to distress other members further and this is not some arguement. I only know Him as a Heavenly Father because I never really had an earthly one ...and I know he allows me to call him that even when I don't deserve it. I'm sure He knows what I'm doing best. -
Since you all argue so much...
It would be better for that you all don't go lah -
That's why I left my church... internal warfare...
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can someone explain to me the rationale of going to church instead of meeting new friends and sing some crap songs and pray. i believe that the main obj is to pray right? maybe i'm wrong. but since "god" is everywhere, can't u ppls just pray in the toilet facing the toilet bowl instead of wasting precious sunday morning to go to church?
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Yes. God Is Omnipresent. So, you can actually pray to him from anywhere. You dont really need to go to a church. People go to church is because they feel good going there.
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Originally posted by caleb_chiang:That's why I left my church... internal warfare... Are you in any now?
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CHC, Pastor Kong. I dress, normal. Tshirt n jeans lo.
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sometimes it doesnt take any religion eg Christianity to knowledge any moral wrong
eg. a criminal whom goes to jail must also repent himself ,or he can come out to do crime /sins again.. -
Hello....
I don't know why Sassyfire's post can cause so much problem. It's obvious she's just being sensible. Don't take it out of proportions please. I got headache reading all those debate.
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About which church u go to, it's up to u.....u will find out and adjust, and u may go to another church too. It's up to u.
If someone recommends a church, it's just natural. Don't blow it out of proportions. It's just a natural thing. Like when u know a good restaurant, u like it, u will recommend it to ur friends, family. Same with movies too. Books. Jobs. Whatever. Problem is, when it's religion, people get so serious. People argue. If u ask someone which restaurant is good, he'll give u his opinion, experience. You don't need to argue with him. If he recommends you a restaurant without u asking first, u don't need to argue with him too. What is he trying to do? Isn't it just a normal thing? Don't take it out of proportions. He meant well. It's the same when someone recommends his/ her church. Don't take it out of proportions and be so allergic to it. If he's too enthusiastic and almost like a salesman, yeah, u will get turned off. Of course. This applies in everything. Not just religion. Imagine if someone keep pestering u to watch a movie he likes. You will get irritated. But if it's still just natural, u don't need to get worked up so easily.
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Among the reasons people go to church, is for fellowship/ communal worship, and to take part in Holy Communion. This has wide meanings. That's why u can pray in ur home, but it's not the same.
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