Australian are too emotional and irrational
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I think you misunderstood me, I never thought it ok to kill someone. It is never right to snuff out an innocent's life. Allowing drugs to ruin somebody's future and even set him on a path to inevitable death would be killing an innocent.Originally posted by lighthand:So you are saying that it's ok to kill someone, just as long as it's not yourself?
I too believe that the death sentence is needed, just so long as it's not a use without regards to pervalling issues.
When the mule is willing to finger the drug lords in exchange for his or her life, I think its a fair trade. Why should we shoot the messenger, when we should be hunting for the leaders. With each messenger we kill, do you even think the drug lords will care?
You may say that the drug lords are not in Singapore thus do not concern us, but as a responsible internation member should we not also help in the fight against drugs and not just in Singapore?
Heng is rite that we should do something about the demand, and not just the supply. Have we ever done a study on why these people take drugs in the first place? It's like smoking (I used to be one) for me it was the cool thing to do when I first picked it up, but as time pass I relized that I'm making more and more excuse not to quit (stress, helps me think, etc..).
The death sentence is meant for those who have committed a crime(in this case trafficking) and know that they are going to cause pain and suffering to others. They are not innocent.
Capital punishment is meant to deter people from being the runners. If you know that you risk getting hanged for doing the dirty business of others, would you still do it? Drug lords would not be able to run their trade without their runners, would they?
Losing a runner means losing not only 400g of goods but losing a potential source of income. Drug lords would think twice about sending their sources of income into a nation where they would be lost.
Besides, I believe that the police is also doing something about the drug lords. Sentencing the runner to death does not mean that nothing is done about the bosses.
Like you said, we should do something about BOTH the demand and supply of drugs. Singapore is already actively doing something about the "demand"(please refer to my previous post).
I find your experience a good example of why we should keep drugs off our streets at all costs. People who come into contact with the drugs will stay addicted. -
they should catch the big boss too
The issue here is this.
Smuggling drugs is wrong.
Does it make Singapore right in killing someone for doing wrong?
2 wrongs don't make a right. -
yup, two wrongs dont make a right, i agree. However, giving a criminal his due punishment is not wrong.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:they should catch the big boss too
The issue here is this.
Smuggling drugs is wrong.
Does it make Singapore right in killing someone for doing wrong?
2 wrongs don't make a right.
In view of the potential benefits, the death sentence is justified. -
totally agree, the Judgment is a sad ending for this case but it is justified for Singapore to do so......Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:they should catch the big boss too
The issue here is this.
Smuggling drugs is wrong.
Does it make Singapore right in killing someone for doing wrong?
2 wrongs don't make a right. -
His execution could be this coming friday unless a last-minute reprieve is granted, Nguyen will become the first Australian since 1993 to be executed overseas.
The Bali Nine consisting of Matthew Norman, 18, Renae Lawrence, 27, Myuran Sukumaran, 24, Andrew Chan, 21, Scott Rush, 19, Tach Duc Thanh Nguyen, 27, Martin Stephens, 29, Michael Czugaj, 19 and Si Yi Chen, 20. All facing death by firing squad in Indonesia for non-violent drug offences. -
Benefits benefits, cost benefit analyses, socio-economic balances.Political stubbornness..let's cut out all that bullshi.te and take a look at how calculating we have become..
Fecking spics. -
He can still protest a hunger strike and get himself to a drip by friday.
and attempt a last moment breakout. -
Once get caught , never plead guilty , pleading guilty is tantamount to death.
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You can plead innocent till the last day of the trial, but if all evidence points to you being the perpetrator of a crime, it is no use.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Once get caught , never plead guilty , pleading guilty is tantamount to death. -
too bad this is singapore , i don't know if he gets the chance to live again.
this kind of mistakes , once commited , can never be forgiven.
even if he prays to God or whatever.
God himself also cannot help him.
Mind you , it's singapore! Unless God really have pity on him and strike the executioner dead. -
Ngyuen is a sinner. The Goddess wants him to pay for his sins. It was thanks to the law of karma that the metal detector beeped when he tried to clear them. But even if he got off the first time, he can never escape divine retribution.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:too bad this is singapore , i don't know if he gets the chance to live again.
this kind of mistakes , once commited , can never be forgiven.
even if he prays to God or whatever.
God himself also cannot help him.
Mind you , it's singapore! Unless God really have pity on him and strike the executioner dead. -
Selling our humanity is very simple. By simply deciding to look at all criminals as the same, and thus all deserving of the same punishment, instead of taking a closer look at each of their varying circumstances, we're selling our humanity. We do not wish to acknowledge that NOT everyone who breaks the law is bad. We WANT to think they are all bad which makes it easier on our own conscience to punish them, easier on our conscience to excecute them. We want to pretend that none of them were bothered by their conscience having been forced to do something that nobody good would really want to do, and we just want them all to fit into our own society's label of a "bad person"Originally posted by acotis:heng, when i quoted you, i was just using that particular question you asked to bring up the point we should be looking at society's point of view as well. I've read your posts and I know what stand you take. When I wrote my post, i wasnt talking about your comments in particular.
May i know what do you define as "selling our humanity"? We do not sell our humanity by sentencing criminals to death. On the other hand, criminals sold their humanity committing acts that they know full well will bring harm to society.
We do target demand as well as supply. We do have anti-drug campaigns. Our schools teach our youth the dangers of drugs. We have counsellors. We have rehab centers to help addicts kick their habit. What we are doing here is also to target both demand and supply. Reducing the amount of drugs there are on the streets will lower the chances of our youth getting in contact with them. Remember, the moment someone takes his first pill, he becomes addicted. In other words, to him the drug is no longer a "want" but a "need". He will then be locked in a cycle of addiction, rehab, addiction, rehab....
We cannot take our chances by allowing drugs into society. Trying to solve the problem by tackling the demand alone is not viable. Doing so would mean killing off more of our youth while we wait for our strategy to take effect. Besides, the addicted would create a constant demand for the drugs. Being drug users themselves, they could influence others into taking drugs. That would seem like we are protecting a few drug smugglers at the cost of the lives of a large number of own. Would that be a more platable option?
THAT is what I mean by we're selling our humanity. Because YOU ALL know that is true, that no 2 criminals are alike, not every criminal is truely bad. U know that yet u all do not wish to acknowledge that fact by saying "if they break the law, they break the law"so I suppose you people hold the view that Robin Hood should have been caught and excecuted too eh?
Thats why I think too many people here have already sold their humanity, and are just content not to think too much, while adopting all the rubbish logic that society force feeds onto u. Without a humanity, U can all look at things from a very detached manner right? But who watches Star Trek? The Borg? Do we remember who they are? Their philosophy is ultimately everything must be for the greater good of the collective. But in the process all individual Borgs have lost their humanity. Everyone who watched Star Trek were robably quite repulsed by the Borg yet YOU don't see that U're already halfway to becoming a borg yourself? -
thats what i mean about society losing humanity. Losing the ability to discern whether a criminal is really a bad person, and summarily thinking that they should all receive their "due punishment"Originally posted by acotis:yup, two wrongs dont make a right, i agree. However, giving a criminal his due punishment is not wrong.
In view of the potential benefits, the death sentence is justified.
u either don't dare, don't want, or are too lazy to, look deeper into this criminal's circumstances and see if he is good or bad. U don't see if he was doing this out of personal greed or because he wanted to save his brother. U don't wish to think if he was racked by guilt while being forced to do something he didn't want to do, but had to, to save his kin. U don't wish to SEE or THINK about ANY of that just so u can label him a "bad criminal who deserves to die" It makes it so much easier on your conscience doesn't it? I suppose losing humanity does make it so much easier on your conscience. -
Today on channel 9's current affairs, an Australian wishes to take over Mr Singh's job as chief executioner in singapore.
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hmm...Originally posted by ditzy:Today on channel 9's current affairs, an Australian wishes to take over Mr Singh's job as chief executioner in singapore.
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One of australia's opposition leader was saying in the show that death by hanging is too inhumane. Oh, so death by shooting squad in Bali isn't? Ok.
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All forms of execution are inhumane.Originally posted by ditzy:One of australia's opposition leader was saying in the show that death by hanging is too inhumane. Oh, so death by shooting squad in Bali isn't? Ok. -
Yesterday, tuesday, Mykabe Diva took the 3rd Melbourne cup consecutively, and retired.
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politicians only take up causes they think will benefit them.Originally posted by ditzy:One of australia's opposition leader was saying in the show that death by hanging is too inhumane. Oh, so death by shooting squad in Bali isn't? Ok. -
The worst thing that can come out of this is allowing ourselves to be drawn to sterotypes (Australian and Singaporean). I think we have to accept the views the Australians have of our system. Some of the things said might not go down well with many of us, but one thing it does show is that how different we are-our cultures, believes, laws. Which result in both sets of us viewing the matter in an entire different manner. You claim them to be irrational and over-emotional. They think you are a blood thirsty, unforgiving bunch of no goods. What we fail to see and I must say we fail to phantom is their great love and passion for their way of life, in which we Singaporeans are so sorely lacking. Similarly, they have failed to see the deep respect we Singaporeans have for the law and governance. That, they are sorely lacking. So see it is more than just an individual being send to the gallows here, it becomes a battle of perspectives, in where we judge difference without observing sensibility. At the end of it, things will be said either way be it whatever happens to Ngueyn as determined by our judiciary. People will forget, but what they will not forget is the bunch of silly sterotypes we churn out of each other through the many sagas. That is inevitable. But let it be somethin a sterotype aided by a tinge of comprehension and understanding.
Let us appreciate difference. -
2 years ago, the murderer was released on parole despite the violent objections of the victim's father. It was argued that he deserved a second chance and that parole was his "right" as he had been well behaved while serving his sentence.
Exactly..that's why I support reform of the investigation and judicial process but keep the death penalty. Families of murder victims ought to have the right to witness the execution and see justice done.
The father then stated on TV that he would personally deal with the scumbag once he was released. Guess what!... instead of taking the father's emotional turmoil into consideration, the police charged him for using threatening language... a typical example of a justice system gone mad!!! where one constantly hears about the rights of criminals and absolutely nothing is said about the rights of the victims and their families!!! -
Heng@,Originally posted by HENG@:Selling our humanity is very simple. By simply deciding to look at all criminals as the same, and thus all deserving of the same punishment, instead of taking a closer look at each of their varying circumstances, we're selling our humanity. We do not wish to acknowledge that NOT everyone who breaks the law is bad. We WANT to think they are all bad which makes it easier on our own conscience to punish them, easier on our conscience to excecute them. We want to pretend that none of them were bothered by their conscience having been forced to do something that nobody good would really want to do, and we just want them all to fit into our own society's label of a "bad person"
THAT is what I mean by we're selling our humanity. Because YOU ALL know that is true, that no 2 criminals are alike, not every criminal is truely bad. U know that yet u all do not wish to acknowledge that fact by saying "if they break the law, they break the law"so I suppose you people hold the view that Robin Hood should have been caught and excecuted too eh?
Thats why I think too many people here have already sold their humanity, and are just content not to think too much, while adopting all the rubbish logic that society force feeds onto u. Without a humanity, U can all look at things from a very detached manner right? But who watches Star Trek? The Borg? Do we remember who they are? Their philosophy is ultimately everything must be for the greater good of the collective. But in the process all individual Borgs have lost their humanity. Everyone who watched Star Trek were robably quite repulsed by the Borg yet YOU don't see that U're already halfway to becoming a borg yourself?
If by your definition, we sell our humanity when we do not set vary the degree of punishment for crimes of different severity, then we are not selling our humanity by giving drug traffickers a death sentence. As we already know, our judicial system awards light or harsh punishments to criminals depending on what they have done. A minor gets a lighter sentence than an adult. Robbers get jail; Molesters get the rotan; Drug traffickers and murderers get death. The system is also built upon the concept that a harsher sentence deters the potential criminal, hence the capital punishment for drug traffickers.
We may compare awarding the death penalty to drug traffickers and doing the same to murderers. A person who snuffs out the life of an innocent knowing full well that it is wrong but does so for money to repay a debt is considered a murderer. The same goes to one who commits the same crime for hate. They deserve the death penalty. A person who imports substances very likely to end or ruin totally the life of several others, and who knows the consequences of his actions is no different from the two mentioned above. Both committed a wrongful act of a severity that warrants capital punishment because they were not ignorant of the results of what they have done.
Being detached is a necessary quality for a decision maker when it comes to decisions which carry with it a major impact on the people affected by it. In this case, the impact falls on the criminal about the receive the death sentence no doubt. But there is also the impact the decision has on society, or more precisely, current and potential drug abusers. A detached person would be able to judge and balance the options he has with regard to the case at hand and decide that ultimately, society is of the highest priority. Should all our decision makers lose this quality, they would lose their objectivity and illogical decisions would eb the result. What would become of our society?
Logic cannot be force fed into educated intellectuals with a good sense of judgement, by the way.
There are also problems arising from the case by case basis of judging drug traffickers:
1)It will be very difficult to judge the extent of how "good" or "bad" a criminal is in court. There will always be gray areas in every case. In fact, it would be safe to say that in court, there is no perfect proof of exactly how "bad" or how repentant the trafficker is.
2) Drug kingpins may use the wealth accumulated from his trade to hire expensive but very competent legal teams who are capable of enabling him to exploit loopholes in the law or gray areas in the case to escape the gallows. Runners, being the poorer ones, will not be able to afford the expenses of a good lawyer and might not be able to successfully argue his case. Double standards will arise and the might become unfair. Who knows, the kingpin may even force a runner to take the blame(and thus also the death sentence) for him.
3) Kingpins who are not awarded the death penalty may continue to run his network from his cell. He may even call upon his pawns to exact revenge on the people who brought him to justice.
People are forewarned of the penalties of commiting crime and are taught the consequences of their actions. Drug trafficking is a crime of a severity that well exceeds the need for capital punishment. Thus, the mandatory death sentence is justified. -
well as long as it is mandatory, and we are making it easier on our conscience to choose to see every criminal thru polarized lenses as bad, we're selling our humanity. Because a truely humane society would be willing to look deeper and not gloss things over to ease their own conscience. If u're willing to sentence someone to death because he was forced into doing something to save the life of one of his kin, then the least price u could pay is to be unable to sleep well at night, and admit his blood is on your hands. But nobody will even afford that man that sort of dignity. If that is not selling your humanity, I don't know what is. It won't be long b4 we'll end up like USA, where killing other people horribly in the name of freedom is considered right and just.
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the point u raised about Kingpins. That is exactly the problem with society! A drug kingpin can use a good legal defence team to get off! Why? People choose to go by and only by the book, down to the last letter. Even though say both the aussie guy and a drug kingpin ended up in court, the aussie will die while the Kingpin will live. Why? because we don't use our humanity. If we used our humanity, the Kingpin will get death! Why? because we will look into their motivations and circumstances! The aussie guy is motivated by concern for his brother. The Kingpin by Greed. Based on that alone, I think its so much clearer who should die and who should be jailed. But because we've sold our humanity, because we can only say the runner was caught with drugs while the Kingpin was caught(probably for tax evasion or for money laundering), the runner will die while the Kingpin will either get off, or continue to run his business in jail like u said. U might not have realised it, but the scenario u've tried to tack to what u think will happen if we do not sell our humanity, is actually what's happening now BECAUSE we've already sold so much of our humanity. Anyone who's humane and thinks deep will know who really deserves to die, and from there, decides who gets it.
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Singapura will push ahead with the execution of an Australian man convicted of drug smuggling, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer has said. He received a letter from the country's Foreign Minister confirming that the execution of Melbourne salesman Nguyen Tuong Van, 25, would go ahead despite pleas for clemency from the Australian government.
But Mr Downer said the Government would continue to press for his life to be spared.
"All we can realistically do is work through what we tend to call the legal issues," he said.
Mr Downer said Nguyen's family would receive two weeks notice of his execution.
Nguyen was caught with 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body and in his hand luggage at Changi in 2002.
He faces execution within weeks after losing an appeal for clemency last month.
Government and opposition MPs this week presented Singapore High Commissioner Joseph Koh with petitions from more than 100 parliamentarians and 300 parliamentary staff calling for his life to be spared.
His lawyer Lex Lasry, QC, argued that his client's co-operation with police and remorse should have been counted when his clemency application was considered.