Australian are too emotional and irrational
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Did Michael Fay really trash Yong Pang Sai's car?Originally posted by Griffie:The reply of the Singapore Government is clear that all criminals who commit crime in Singapore will be dealt with by her OWN LAWS. A previous example is the US boy who vandalised the CJ's car, even after appeal he still "tio rotan". So even a superpower like USA back that fella he still "tio rotan", *insert country here*'s government can do wat?
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Rob a bank...run a brothel...be a loanshark...IN AUSTRALIA. No death penalty thereOriginally posted by HENG@:u too. another one who refuse to think. go answer my question. What IF U WERE HIM?
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I doubt it....the worse thing the Australians could have done is to blow it up as they have. Singapore will never backtrack...it's a matter of faceOriginally posted by ^spidee^:I get your point now.
Hope that as you said, Nguyen's case could be a precedence for aboishing mandatory death setence. -
I would say not all of them are as Caramon described. Anyway, he is one hell of a lame topic starter, as old hands can attest to. They just happen to be a vocal minority that are using the media for their own purposes.
Anyway, I still feel it is time for a referendum on hte issue of mandatory sentencing. Better still if we could bring back the jury. -
you try hanging a Jap, Yank, Kraut or anything that didn't come out from s'pore.Originally posted by caramon.:To get rid of drugs - hang the smuggler. What else could be simpler?
Take the case of Nguyen Tuong Van, everyone in Australia is so worked up because Singapore is about to hang him. This Austrailian Vietnamese was forced by the triads to smuggle drugs to help his twin brother who is in debt.
If he is a Singaporean nobody would have cared, time is just too precious to fight for a criminal, Singaporeans has many other more important things to do like shopping, tours and karaoke.
Something is really wrong with Australians, why bother with Singapore hanging one of their citizens, they have 20 million people more than us. They should understand Singapore is helping them to get rid of one of their criminals - they should thank us, for their nation is now safer.
Nguyen Tuong Van will obviously endangered the lives of people by his crime, why else would a "rational country" like Singapore want to hang him? These Australians and human rights group are acting so emotionally and irrationally over this.
We singaporeans are really lucky that we have such a unique and wonderful system in place. However, not many ang moh countries appreciate the beauty behind our beloved PAP Logic.
they'd do the same. -
Bali now has 10 people on trial for drug charges. If I'm updated enough, I think only 3 of them have support from some of the australian community to lighten their sentences. Dunno about the rest.
Can tell you the ones who get support are the ones that make the biggest hoo ha, the rest are "do I even know you?" -
All the previous offenders are hung, and if this Aussie guy is NOT, then it is an INSULT to the other offenders as some carry even LESSER heroin than him.
It will be not fair, and ruin Singapore's stand of having justice and equality. -
I can resign myself to letting Ngyuen hang, but I demand a referendum on the issue of mandatory sentencing.Originally posted by launtpc:All the previous offenders are hung, and if this Aussie guy is NOT, then it is an INSULT to the other offenders as some carry even LESSER heroin than him.
It will be not fair, and ruin Singapore's stand of having justice and equality. -
200gm of drug can mean ruining lives of 5 people.Originally posted by iveco:I can resign myself to letting Ngyuen hang, but I demand a referendum on the issue of mandatory sentencing.
Ratio is 1:5.
If there are 10,000 drug smugglers, then it will be more than 60,000 Singaporeans suffering more from drugs. The smugglers can smuggle huge amounts.
Why not hang the smugglers so that they will refrain from smuggling, and save the population at the same time?
Do you know about the Opium War? Have you forgotten how China lost HK? Opuim is also a type of drug.
Come on, there are other ways to get money. Legally.
EDIT: Iveco, the release of the GoF movie is 17th Nov. Why is it Dec 1st? -
That's where we pay good money to the drug investigators in the Narcos right?If they can't even investigate the motive of an alleged smuggler properly, we might as well flush down all this tax money..Originally posted by ^spidee^:What if we do that, and drug trafficking increase? Also, how do we truly know whether a trafficker is being forced to smuggle drugs like in Nguyen's case? It is all too ambiguous and subject to manipulation don't you think?
Even with the death sentence as deterrence, drug traffickers exist in Singapore. It's for the greater good of society as a whole I guess. -
Before anyone start campaigning on an issue, you need to understand the consequences of your actions should your campaign be a success.
I have lived in Australia for the last 15 years and I can tell you that the majority of OZs would welcome the return of the death penalty for crimes such as murder and drug trafficking.
The biggest mistake the western world committed was to do away with the death penalty. As a result, the family of murder victims now suffer more than the scumbags that commit the crimes.
17 years ago, a 13 year old girl was raped and then brutally murdered. Her body was thrown in a drain near her home. The body was found by her father. One can only begin to imagine the anguish he went through at that moment and the torment he has been suffering from that day on.
Fortunately, the rapist/murderer was caught and charged. He was sentenced to 20 years jail with the opportunity for parole after 15 years!!!
2 years ago, the murderer was released on parole despite the violent objections of the victim's father. It was argued that he deserved a second chance and that parole was his "right" as he had been well behaved while serving his sentence.
The father then stated on TV that he would personally deal with the scumbag once he was released. Guess what!... instead of taking the father's emotional turmoil into consideration, the police charged him for using threatening language... a typical example of a justice system gone mad!!! where one constantly hears about the rights of criminals and absolutely nothing is said about the rights of the victims and their families!!!
The death penalty is harsh but when it comes to certain categories of crime, it is the only way to go. The victims and their loved ones need to be considered too. The death penalty brings closure for them. It is final. They can then get on with rebuilding their shattered lives. -
One more guy just got on the news from Bali. Make that the Bali eleven now, up from nine.
Amnesty international gets a load of publicity stunts here in Oz thanks to Nguyen. I hope the stunts can end soon, it really doesn't deserve hogging the news all the time. Lighting up 3000 lanterns in brisbane, like that is going to help. Oh yeah sure. Nguyen's case even made it all the way to australian parliament. Jeezus...
Today tuesday is melbourne cup day. Mykabe Diva is going to win for the 3rd running this year. 1 punter put $1miilion bet on it to win. -
Originally posted by ditzy:One more guy just got on the news from Bali. Make that the Bali eleven now, up from nine.
Amnesty international gets a load of publicity stunts here in Oz thanks to Nguyen. I hope the stunts can end soon, it really doesn't deserve hogging the news all the time. Lighting up 3000 lanterns in brisbane, like that is going to help. Oh yeah sure. Nguyen's case even made it all the way to australian parliament. Jeezus...
Today tuesday is melbourne cup day. Mykabe Diva is going to win for the 3rd running this year. 1 punter put $1miilion bet on it to win.
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I am for the death sentence for drug traffickers.
Firstly, in nguyen's case, it is impossible to get the courts to pardon him at this point in time. He committed a crime in Singapore and he must be punished according to the law of Singapore. That he is an Australian or even if the Queen intercedes on his behalf makes no difference. If foreign nations were to see Singapore make an exception for nguyen, it could be potentially disastrous for Singapore. Singapore could be seen as a weak nation ready to buckle under pressure. In the global political arena, foreign nations would use this weakness to push Singapore around to obtain benefit for themselves.
I understand the Australians' reaction towards Nguyen. It is natural for one to stand up for one's own countrymen, especially since Australia does not have the death sentence. However, they too have to understand that since Nguyen broke a law in Singapore, he cannot be pardoned because he is one of them.
HENG@ is right to point out that we have to view the matter from the perspective of the offender. However, there is also the perspective of society.Originally posted by HENG@:What IF U WERE HIM?
From the perspective of the offender:- To Nguyen, death as a punishment is probably too harsh. But then again no one will accept death as a punishment. He might claim to feel remorse. But in reality, he probably just regrets trying to smuggle drugs into Singapore.
- Nguyen might wonder why is he being punished for trying to help his brother and for being 'forced' into this by the drug bosses. But what of the lives he might ruin? He could, with his 400g of drugs, ruin the life of yet another (and maybe more). The drugs, if not found, would ruin the life of more youths like him. They might even enter a life of crime to support their expensive addiction.
From the perspective of the Society:- Drug peddlers should be kept as far away as possible. Every one of them has the potential to contribute to the deaths of many more. I think that this is undisputable.
- If the death of a few traffickers, who have knowingly committed an act that will potentially destroy members of society, can send a message to others not to try, the death sentence is justified. Since the traffickers have been warned, and since they continue to traffic drugs, they have chosen death themselves.
- It is not fair to allow a potentially destructive element of soceity back where he can wreak more havoc just because he does not want to adhere to the rules set by the soceity.
The death penalty is a good deterent against drug trafficking. It may not be the case in other nations, but it is in Singapore. There are statistics to prove it.
A drug trafficker who is released could very well find himself in the same circumstances that forced him to traffic drugs in the first place. He might be an addict once and might become an addict again. he could still have the same financial difficulties that forced him to turn to a life of crime. Being known to the drug lords means that they could still find him and force him into being a drug mule again.
I believe we should not put our society at risk for a person who has violated our laws in full knowledge of the consequences of being caught and the destruction he could bring to society. -
im glad to see your humanity is so cheap u're willing to trade it for something that solves no problems.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Rob a bank...run a brothel...be a loanshark...IN AUSTRALIA. No death penalty there -
maybe u all dun want to think again. The 1st law of supply and demand is that there must 1st BE a demand. Why isn't the govt tackling the demand problem then? U get rid of 1, get rid of 10, get rid of 100 smugglers, there will always be more people who can and will be exploited by unsavoury people into committing crimes against their will.Originally posted by launtpc:200gm of drug can mean ruining lives of 5 people.
Ratio is 1:5.
If there are 10,000 drug smugglers, then it will be more than 60,000 Singaporeans suffering more from drugs. The smugglers can smuggle huge amounts.
Why not hang the smugglers so that they will refrain from smuggling, and save the population at the same time?
Do you know about the Opium War? Have you forgotten how China lost HK? Opuim is also a type of drug.
Come on, there are other ways to get money. Legally.
EDIT: Iveco, the release of the GoF movie is 17th Nov. Why is it Dec 1st?
U all want to talk big about society, maybe u should think about how society is cheaping its collective soul and humanity for a futile effort that leads to no conclusion of a problem. Otherwise, dun come n talk rubbish to me about 'better for society' because, unless u want to make me laugh, do u really think hanging smugglers will do society any good? More like, the triads give u small fish so they can send large shipments thru safely. It not the intercepted drug shipments im worried about. Its the ones which didn't get intercepted. Did u ever think about this maybe? Or nobody is willing to consider that the triads might be using misdirection? Sure u can say the govt and authorities how smart how smart but they're only human, they can get fooled as well too. meanwhile a man who used while trying to save his brother, has to die.
so come on. don't come talk rubbish to me. -
believe me. im thinking from society's point of view to. im thinking:Originally posted by acotis:I am for the death sentence for drug traffickers.
Firstly, in nguyen's case, it is impossible to get the courts to pardon him at this point in time. He committed a crime in Singapore and he must be punished according to the law of Singapore. That he is an Australian or even if the Queen intercedes on his behalf makes no difference. If foreign nations were to see Singapore make an exception for nguyen, it could be potentially disastrous for Singapore. Singapore could be seen as a weak nation ready to buckle under pressure. In the global political arena, foreign nations would use this weakness to push Singapore around to obtain benefit for themselves.
I understand the Australians' reaction towards Nguyen. It is natural for one to stand up for one's own countrymen, especially since Australia does not have the death sentence. However, they too have to understand that since Nguyen broke a law in Singapore, he cannot be pardoned because he is one of them.
HENG@ is right to point out that we have to view the matter from the perspective of the offender. However, there is also the perspective of society.
From the perspective of the offender:- To Nguyen, death as a punishment is probably too harsh. But then again no one will accept death as a punishment. He might claim to feel remorse. But in reality, he probably just regrets trying to smuggle drugs into Singapore.
- Nguyen might wonder why is he being punished for trying to help his brother and for being 'forced' into this by the drug bosses. But what of the lives he might ruin? He could, with his 400g of drugs, ruin the life of yet another (and maybe more). The drugs, if not found, would ruin the life of more youths like him. They might even enter a life of crime to support their expensive addiction.
From the perspective of the Society:- Drug peddlers should be kept as far away as possible. Every one of them has the potential to contribute to the deaths of many more. I think that this is undisputable.
- If the death of a few traffickers, who have knowingly committed an act that will potentially destroy members of society, can send a message to others not to try, the death sentence is justified. Since the traffickers have been warned, and since they continue to traffic drugs, they have chosen death themselves.
- It is not fair to allow a potentially destructive element of soceity back where he can wreak more havoc just because he does not want to adhere to the rules set by the soceity.
The death penalty is a good deterent against drug trafficking. It may not be the case in other nations, but it is in Singapore. There are statistics to prove it.
A drug trafficker who is released could very well find himself in the same circumstances that forced him to traffic drugs in the first place. He might be an addict once and might become an addict again. he could still have the same financial difficulties that forced him to turn to a life of crime. Being known to the drug lords means that they could still find him and force him into being a drug mule again.
I believe we should not put our society at risk for a person who has violated our laws in full knowledge of the consequences of being caught and the destruction he could bring to society.
As a society, is it worth selling our humanity under the pretext of protecting ourselves? When what we should really be combating is 'demand' because there is NEVER supply without demand. No one want to buy, who want to do a money lossing business? Targetting supply solves nothing, is futile, and ultimately, i sure as hell ain't comfortable about society selling its humanity and soul for nothing. -
Targeting demand solves nothing? Surely a drop in demand will have tremendous effect on supply of any commodity.Originally posted by HENG@:Targetting demand solves nothing, is futile, and ultimately, i sure as hell ain't comfortable about society selling its humanity and soul for nothing.
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i make it very clear here, that im not against the death sentence per se, but i am FOR a death sentence which is NOT mandatory, which is subject to more thinking b4 sentencing, and not just mindless, soul-less, inhumane sentencing for all cases without regard for circumstances.
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my bad. typo. i meant targetting SUPPLY.Originally posted by iveco:Targeting demand solves nothing? Surely a drop in demand will have tremendous effect on supply of any commodity. -
So you are saying that it's ok to kill someone, just as long as it's not yourself?Originally posted by acotis:I am for the death sentence for drug traffickers.
HENG@ is right to point out that we have to view the matter from the perspective of the offender. However, there is also the perspective of society.
From the perspective of the offender:- To Nguyen, death as a punishment is probably too harsh. But then again no one will accept death as a punishment. He might claim to feel remorse. But in reality, he probably just regrets trying to smuggle drugs into Singapore.
- Nguyen might wonder why is he being punished for trying to help his brother and for being 'forced' into this by the drug bosses. But what of the lives he might ruin? He could, with his 400g of drugs, ruin the life of yet another (and maybe more). The drugs, if not found, would ruin the life of more youths like him. They might even enter a life of crime to support their expensive addiction.
From the perspective of the Society:- Drug peddlers should be kept as far away as possible. Every one of them has the potential to contribute to the deaths of many more. I think that this is undisputable.
- If the death of a few traffickers, who have knowingly committed an act that will potentially destroy members of society, can send a message to others not to try, the death sentence is justified. Since the traffickers have been warned, and since they continue to traffic drugs, they have chosen death themselves.
- It is not fair to allow a potentially destructive element of soceity back where he can wreak more havoc just because he does not want to adhere to the rules set by the soceity.
The death penalty is a good deterent against drug trafficking. It may not be the case in other nations, but it is in Singapore. There are statistics to prove it.
I too believe that the death sentence is needed, just so long as it's not a use without regards to pervalling issues.
When the mule is willing to finger the drug lords in exchange for his or her life, I think its a fair trade. Why should we shoot the messenger, when we should be hunting for the leaders. With each messenger we kill, do you even think the drug lords will care?
You may say that the drug lords are not in Singapore thus do not concern us, but as a responsible internation member should we not also help in the fight against drugs and not just in Singapore?
Heng is rite that we should do something about the demand, and not just the supply. Have we ever done a study on why these people take drugs in the first place? It's like smoking (I used to be one) for me it was the cool thing to do when I first picked it up, but as time pass I relized that I'm making more and more excuse not to quit (stress, helps me think, etc..). -
heng, when i quoted you, i was just using that particular question you asked to bring up the point we should be looking at society's point of view as well. I've read your posts and I know what stand you take. When I wrote my post, i wasnt talking about your comments in particular.
May i know what do you define as "selling our humanity"? We do not sell our humanity by sentencing criminals to death. On the other hand, criminals sold their humanity committing acts that they know full well will bring harm to society.Originally posted by HENG@:As a society, is it worth selling our humanity under the pretext of protecting ourselves? When what we should really be combating is 'demand' because there is NEVER supply without demand. No one want to buy, who want to do a money lossing business? Targetting supply solves nothing, is futile, and ultimately, i sure as hell ain't comfortable about society selling its humanity and soul for nothing.
We do target demand as well as supply. We do have anti-drug campaigns. Our schools teach our youth the dangers of drugs. We have counsellors. We have rehab centers to help addicts kick their habit. What we are doing here is also to target both demand and supply. Reducing the amount of drugs there are on the streets will lower the chances of our youth getting in contact with them. Remember, the moment someone takes his first pill, he becomes addicted. In other words, to him the drug is no longer a "want" but a "need". He will then be locked in a cycle of addiction, rehab, addiction, rehab....
We cannot take our chances by allowing drugs into society. Trying to solve the problem by tackling the demand alone is not viable. Doing so would mean killing off more of our youth while we wait for our strategy to take effect. Besides, the addicted would create a constant demand for the drugs. Being drug users themselves, they could influence others into taking drugs. That would seem like we are protecting a few drug smugglers at the cost of the lives of a large number of own. Would that be a more platable option? -
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my condolences for nguyen and his family -
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If nicholas cage were to be caught helping his brother thru smuggling of drugs , i think he would have taken out a gun and shoot the policeman in changi airport.
so theoretically , that is impossible . There are also many people , who smuggle drugs and did it for their family. This is the SR Nathan , singaporeans vote for , you all could see on tv that he is a nice and merciful father , but in actual fact...
Smuggling of drugs already carry a death penalty offense , be it right or wrong.
AGAINST Nguyen isn't given a second chance did not know about singapore law really young person who has to give up his life because he has to save his brother
Lastly if you were a singaporean caught in iraq and about to be beheaded or whatever , singapore will not care , thats the bare facts about singapore.
What i suggest is that singapore authorities change this guy's name through a planned agreement , and start a new life entirely altogether.
will not compromise anything and will save a life.