what audio system i should buy?
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First, power rating for speakers and amp are diff things.Originally posted by Glen999:Nulife, thanx for such a comprehensive explanation to a beginner like me.
I have a queston. According to boliao, he said that it's good to hav 150RMS.
however, Denon D-F101 has only:
"The 2-way reflex loudspeakers provide 35W (RMS) power output per channel."
and the CMT-WS2D has 2X75W (RMS).
so, does it mean that Sony one is better than Denon. ( I think the D-F101 is aroud SGD1,500 compared to Sony SGD699)
And IT IS NOT a basis for quality.
Speaker's power rating is the max it can recieve from the amp.
Amp's power rating is the max it can deliver to the speaker.
Generally speaking, its the bass/low-frequency that requires more power.
Speakers with lower power usually has bass limitation in High Volume.
Simliarly for amp.
Also a high power amp can drive speakers more easily.
Eg say you have a car whose top speed is 500KM/h
u can easily drive at 50KM/h.
but a car w top speed at only 60KM/h is going to have difficulties.
Just a simple analogy.
Generally, for amp, about 50W is good enough for room.
However again, higher power DOES NOT mean higher quality.
Eg a bus/truck has more power than a mercs, but a mercs is smoother.
Denon F101 amp is 70W (35W is the specs for its speakers)
Sony CMT has 75W. about the same.
With denon's 35W speakers, perhaps, the bass will be lacking in loud volume.
Quality wise, Denon Amp is well-known.
Sony S-masters amp is new. not sure about the quality.
But it sure is attractive for its low-price and digital design.
You may also keep in mind that denon new model release
is less frequent than sony, and you should be still
able to repair ur denon in 10 years time.
but 1500.. hmm quite ex huh. still within budget ??
Have you considered separates?
say a CD player + amp at ard <1000??
then get a speaker for ard <1000??
But then again, u have to make sure u can repair
them in 5-8yrs time.
however, i have no recommendation for separates man.
gotta consult those audiophiles. -
hi,
Went to audio house at Liang Court.
what do you think of the combination below:
Denon PMA1500AE (integrated amp) (SGD1299)
http://www.denon.co.uk/site/popup/index.php?p=techdat&Pid=253
+
Denon DCD-1500AE (CD player) (SGD1299, salesman said that this is expensive)
http://www.denon.co.uk/site/popup/index.php?p=techdat&Pid=251
+
JBL L830 (SGD1000)
+
cabling (guess not more than SGD100)
+
speaker stands (SGD235)
we also try Infinity Premus 360. (SGD744) and JBL E-30 (SGD730).
Need some opinions. I'm just a beginner.
Not sure forking up total SGD3600+ is worthwhile or not. -
Im afriad i wil say a big NO. Not worth it.Originally posted by Glen999:hi,
Went to audio house at Liang Court.
what do you think of the combination below:
Denon PMA1500AE (integrated amp) (SGD1299)
http://www.denon.co.uk/site/popup/index.php?p=techdat&Pid=253
+
Denon DCD-1500AE (CD player) (SGD1299, salesman said that this is expensive)
http://www.denon.co.uk/site/popup/index.php?p=techdat&Pid=251
+
JBL L830 (SGD1000)
+
cabling (guess not more than SGD100)
+
speaker stands (SGD235)
we also try Infinity Premus 360. (SGD744) and JBL E-30 (SGD730).
Need some opinions. I'm just a beginner.
Not sure forking up total SGD3600+ is worthwhile or not.
Amp overkill. Its meant for huge living room or hall.
Denon DCD-1500AE (CD player) :
i think u must be seriosly crazy to buy this.
It doesn't make much difference in quality compared to the $600+ D-33 system. CD players qualities nowadays about the same as long as
they use good DAC. pickup mechanism not much diff now.
you forgot my advice previously.
JBL speakers, not good.
Hm..I feel the combination above is not even better than
a Denon F-series ($1500?) + B&W 600 series speaker or other speakers.
Any experts want to verify the above claim?
May i also suggest u buy a copy of 'What Hifi'. -
Same said by the salesman for Denon DCD-1500AE (too expensive).Originally posted by NuLife:Im afriad i wil say a big NO. Not worth it.
Amp overkill. Its meant for huge living room or hall.
Denon DCD-1500AE (CD player) :
i think u must be seriosly crazy to buy this.
It doesn't make much difference in quality compared to the $600+ D-33 system. CD players qualities nowadays about the same as long as
they use good DAC. pickup mechanism not much diff now.
you forgot my advice previously.
JBL speakers, not good.
Hm..I feel the combination above is not even better than
a Denon F-series ($1500?) + B&W 600 series speaker or other speakers.
Any experts want to verify the above claim?
May i also suggest u buy a copy of 'What Hifi'.
how can you tell Denon 1500AE overkills and it's for huge living hall? I would like to learn.
how about infinity Premus 360?
BTW, what do you mean by "$600+ D-33 system"?
OK. i dropped by bookstore to grab the audio magazine. -
hm... an analogy:
how can you tell Denon 1500AE overkills and it's for huge living hall? I would like to learn.
u need alot more enery/power to shout across a large hall than a small room.
however, theres this thing called sensitvity of the speaker,
meaning how much sound is produced from a given power input.
higher sentivity means u need smaller amp/ or lesser turn of
the volume knob to produce the same amount of loudness.
infinity quite popular i think.
how about infinity Premus 360?
but i have to say, there are just way too many speakers brands
for one to know which is good or bad.
Safer for u to buy the more popular one.
Oh i meant D-M33S, which cost abt 600+
BTW, what do you mean by "$600+ D-33 system"? -
First of all, thanx for your help and advice.
My girlfriend and I went to B&W showroom at paragon.
The salesman spent a good 2-3 hours with us.
Firstly, we joined a family for B&W 802 + Class demo. After this demo, I really know what is called 'real' music.
Then we went through B&W 802.5 and B&W 803 ( with ARCAM all in one).
B&W 802.5 and B&W803 are significant in the quality with additional SGD600.
However, I would not pay 25 times more to get the B&W 802.
Therefore, we have our final configuration:
B&W 603 S3 (SGD1890)
ARCAM CD73 (SGD1180)
ARCAM A80 (SGD1770)
+ free cabling and delivery and setting at my house.
The total price $4840. Well, this is a big stretch on my budget.
Any opinion? -
Originally posted by Glen999:First of all, thanx for your help and advice.
My girlfriend and I went to B&W showroom at paragon.
The salesman spent a good 2-3 hours with us.
Firstly, we joined a family for B&W 802 + Class demo. After this demo, I really know what is called 'real' music.
Then we went through B&W 802.5 and B&W 803 ( with ARCAM all in one).
B&W 802.5 and B&W803 are significant in the quality with additional SGD600.
However, I would not pay 25 times more to get the B&W 802.
Therefore, we have our final configuration:
B&W 603 S3 (SGD1890)
ARCAM CD73 (SGD1180)
ARCAM A80 (SGD1770)
+ free cabling and delivery and setting at my house.
The total price $4840. Well, this is a big stretch on my budget.
Any opinion?
either u got conned by the salesmen or....
speakers are alright. amp alittle ex. CD is ridiculous.
hmm.. i wld just say that
what i had said previously is a feedback from Quality engineering pt of view,
not a brainless audiophile trying to show what is more expensive and cool.
in the audiophile world, there is alot of diminishing return
over a certain price pt.
and for CD, what i had said was professional engineering info.
anything over $300 is not worth it.
becos the best DAC component (in the CD player)
is just a mere few dollar chip.
Have you ever wonder why the DVD player had became so cheap
and yet can play all discs and even HDCD???
All of them are based on a few chips made by some IC leaders.
(yes, even those high end ones)
All these audio/video companies need to do is to make a casing
and of course some properly 'engineered internal wiring'
that required much less knowledge than the chip itself.
but of cos, the money is yours.
-
Thanx. i agree on the point for the player.Originally posted by NuLife:
either u got conned by the salesmen or....
speakers are alright. amp alittle ex. CD is ridiculous.
hmm.. i wld just say that
what i had said previously is a feedback from Quality engineering pt of view,
not a brainless audiophile trying to show what is more expensive and cool.
in the audiophile world, there is alot of diminishing return
over a certain price pt.
and for CD, what i had said was professional engineering info.
anything over $300 is not worth it.
becos the best DAC component (in the CD player)
is just a mere few dollar chip.
Have you ever wonder why the DVD player had became so cheap
and yet can play all discs and even HDCD???
All of them are based on a few chips made by some IC leaders.
(yes, even those high end ones)
All these audio/video companies need to do is to make a casing
and of course some properly 'engineered internal wiring'
that required much less knowledge than the chip itself.
but of cos, the money is yours. -
Have you looked around for Rogers Speakers or Monitor Audio speakers?
For amplifier, if you are into serious shi/t business looking for the vacuum tube type like McIntosh, you might want to consider Sonic Frontiers.
Players and stuff, i don't really play attention to all those anymore since all are mostly digital signals (CD, Mp3). -
I haven't.Originally posted by Ponders:Have you looked around for Rogers Speakers or Monitor Audio speakers?
For amplifier, if you are into serious shi/t business looking for the vacuum tube type like McIntosh, you might want to consider Sonic Frontiers.
Players and stuff, i don't really play attention to all those anymore since all are mostly digital signals (CD, Mp3).
I checked on internet. Some article/people said that the CD player also plays important role. is it just a hype to have an expensive player? -
then for CD player.. you might want to check on Rotel.Originally posted by Glen999:I haven't.
I checked on internet. Some article/people said that the CD player also plays important role. is it just a hype to have an expensive player?
the big disadvantage about a good CD player is that they are very sensitive.
So you might not be able to play burned CDs or some CD with minor defects.
But the sad part not is that CDs itself are from cheap sources that the actual quality isn't good to start off. -
hmm... yes and no.Originally posted by Ponders:then for CD player.. you might want to check on Rotel.
the big disadvantage about a good CD player is that they are very sensitive.
So you might not be able to play burned CDs or some CD with minor defects.
But the sad part not is that CDs itself are from cheap sources that the actual quality isn't good to start off.
allow me to explain what detemines the quality of a good CD-player:
1) laser/drive pickup mechanism
most (if not all) audio CD-players uses direct pick-up mechanism interestingly,
(instead of adding error-correction) thats why low quality CD matters
in audio players (especially in the olden days, now not too sure).
these are usually controlled by a some standard IC chip plus some standard drive mechaism and laser component.
However, if i tell u the cheap CD-ROM drive in your PC is the best pickup
compared to even the most expensive CD-player, would u believe?
the truth is, this is the fact :
when you rip your CD-ROM using the free iTunes using
lossless AAC(or wav) format with error-correction enabled,
you have the perhaps the best pickup mechanism on the planet.
2) Digital-to-analog convertor
The most important component in the CD-player,
now just a matter of a few dollar IC chip.
The best in the world, if not one of the best) is the brand:
burrbrown (used in denon cdplayer)
3) internal wiring/drive circuitry leading to output point.
This is what that determines if the design engineers
have the "knowlegde and skill" to prevent external noises (inside the box)
from adding into the wiring carrying the audio signal to the output.
This is usually helped by having some audio measuring deisgn equipments
during the design process.
something like that.
Well, pt 1) and 2) are why i said audiophile CD-players are
getting obsolete in terms of techology.
(However, SACD is a different animal)
Thus, yes, CD-player IS indeed hype.
Also the amplifier field is also becoming like that soon,
with the commercialisation of digital amplifiers in a chip,
which perform as well as a vacuum tube amp.
hmm.... any engineering experts wanna verify this???
you may also veriy with you electronic engineering friends who are
expect in the audio/CDROM field.
Alot of words used in audiophile mags to described
sound from a CD-player, i have to say, have no basis.
These are actually quatifiable in engineering measurement terms,
not english words.
The reason why alot of the audiophile equipments are so expensive
is that the buyers, often rich, are willing to spent alot
and have no knowledge of what is good and bad in engineering.
Thus made good con-targets.
Hmm, perhaps, the casing design itself adds some cost as
they pleases the eye too.
-
hi Nulife,Originally posted by NuLife:hmm... yes and no.
allow me to explain what detemines the quality of a good CD-player:
1) laser/drive pickup mechanism
most (if not all) audio CD-players uses direct pick-up mechanism interestingly,
(instead of adding error-correction) thats why low quality CD matters
in audio players (especially in the olden days, now not too sure).
these are usually controlled by a some standard IC chip plus some standard drive mechaism and laser component.
However, if i tell u the cheap CD-ROM drive in your PC is the best pickup
compared to even the most expensive CD-player, would u believe?
the truth is, this is the fact :
when you rip your CD-ROM using the free iTunes using
lossless AAC(or wav) format with error-correction enabled,
you have the perhaps the best pickup mechanism on the planet.
2) Digital-to-analog convertor
The most important component in the CD-player,
now just a matter of a few dollar IC chip.
The best in the world, if not one of the best) is the brand:
burrbrown (used in denon cdplayer)
You are right. I went to B&W shop again asking about the CD player.
He mentioned these very same 2 points that determine the quality of a CD player. He specifically stressed on the point 1.
A good CD player will have better mechanic to run CD and better/or no error correction at all. (A lousy CD player will have sort of 'smart' logic to error correct the data.) -
Hi Glen999,Originally posted by Glen999:hi Nulife,
You are right. I went to B&W shop again asking about the CD player.
He mentioned these very same 2 points that determine the quality of a CD player. He specifically stressed on the point 1.
A good CD player will have better mechanic to run CD and better/or no error correction at all. (A lousy CD player will have sort of 'smart' logic to error correct the data.)
wrt what the salesman said....
im not too sure if there is actually such thing as 'better' or 'lousier'
error correction. Think only those doing CDdrive related engineering will know.
There may just be one type as specified by the global CD standard.
Im also quite surprised that he said some expensive player do not have error
correction yet lousy players have.
I believe the thinking behind is
-for the good player: trust the drive mechanism and the quality of the laser component.
-for the lousy player: the error correction logic will correct any wrong laser
pickup.
Although there are different grade of laser component,
I would rather have a lousy player with error correction,
than an expensive one without.
honestly, we can go into more details, but
i personally think its not worth it to buy any CD-player
without error-correction these days,
esp when u know the cheap PC CDROM drive already have such feature,
and that the end output is the same digital ones and zeros.
however, i wonder if these CD-players really produce such tech specs.
without which how do these salesmen know??
so u have to wonder if what he said is indeed true too... hmm
also, any HDCD, SACD or DVD-Audio player outperform a CDplayer anytime easily. so, again really not worth it to pay too much for a CD-player.
Betw, I just came across Arcam Solo. I thought the design is blooody coool
but think its overpriced too. -
The salesman was not in that day. as i was second vist, the engineer who did the installation served me when we were in the demo room.
We tested with the difference cable from CD player to the amps. Well, it made difference. (he said it's just to prove the point that a quality CD playe rmakes a difference).
Argument between CD player and computer CD player:
the issue is the time based. AS CD playe rneeds to convert to analog, so time becomes a factor. There should not be any delay, otherwise, the sound will be bad. -
difference cable??Originally posted by Glen999:The salesman was not in that day. as i was second vist, the engineer who did the installation served me when we were in the demo room.
We tested with the difference cable from CD player to the amps.
Well, it made difference. (he said it's just to prove the point that a quality CD playe rmakes a difference).
Argument between CD player and computer CD player:
the issue is the time based. AS CD playe rneeds to convert to analog, so time becomes a factor. There should not be any delay, otherwise, the sound will be bad.
prove that CD player make a difference??
pardon me, i dun get you here.
the delay factor, is perhaps why those CD players have no error correction.
the quality difference, usually is affected more by the DAC (convertor),
than the pickup mechanism (unless u have badly scratched discs or CD-R/RW).
as long as you have a good DAC. like those in Denon.
i guess, the reason is that, when one know that the humble cheap CDROM
drive can read at 52x with error correction,
the audiophile CDplayer at 1-2x is way too overpriced.
and you have to know that the CDROM techonolgy is already almost 2 decades old. No pt paying too much for a player.
Digital technology always become better and cheaper over the years.
(a correction over prev post, yes, there are different error-correction
mechanism, particularly over the drive/laser control too, i forgot abt this)
Yes, it does make a difference esp when u consider no error-correction
and pt 3) in my prev post. But for the amt of improvement, it is overpriced.
And having no error-correction, is like going back to the beginning days
of CD-players 15+ years ago.
In the end, it all boils down to pt 3) when components for pt 1) and 2) are almost perfected over the decades to some mere few dollar chips.
Generally, i advice u budget more for speakers, then amp, and lastly CD-player.
I still want to say, CD-player is getting obsolete soon.
We will all be playing songs from ripped mp3s/lossless format
or online purchased songs. while SACD remain for 'professional' audiophiles.
Perhaps, i should give u some good reasons, i shall pm you
some unique information. -
i seemed to have problem sending u pm,
let me know if u rx it.