Teaching and Understanding of Confucius
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Anyway to type chinese character here? or only using html format?Originally posted by grandeur:
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I shall touch on "loyalty" pronounced Chu, comes to mean "blind loyalty", absolute obedience to a feudal lord or the emperor, regardless of whether instructions are right or wrong. This was in stark contrast to the Chinese sense, where an expression of "true" loyalty might be the willingness to be put to death rather than do what is wrong.
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Wait a minute! Before going into all those big ideas and lectures, can you please do something about your English?Originally posted by king108: Respected you again... This is called teaching No wondered our children only turned their head when reading books...
No wonder taiwanese Li Ao say we are so smart...I starting to get clearer picture..
I saw a bended house...I think you must be the owner.. Live happily inside..I wish you long long life..
I mean look at it. If you are someone who needs so many emotions icon to help you express yourself properly, then get your big fat ass out of here! 
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Originally posted by king108:
m i ignorant or r u wrong? loyalty is pronouced chu which also comes to mean blind loyalty? which chu are u referring 2? either i need 2 do more reading or u need 2 buck up on ur english...
[b]I shall touch on "loyalty" pronounced Chu, comes to mean "blind loyalty", absolute obedience to a feudal lord or the emperor, regardless of whether instructions are right or wrong. This was in stark contrast to the Chinese sense, where an expression of "true" loyalty might be the willingness to be put to death rather than do what is wrong. [/b]
n if i not wrong loyalty is zhong, blind loyalty is called yu zhong (direct translation is 'foolish loyalty') -
Originally posted by life2121:m i ignorant or r u wrong? loyalty is pronouced chu which also comes to mean blind loyalty? which chu are u referring 2? either i need 2 do more reading or u need 2 buck up on ur english...
n if i not wrong loyalty is zhong, blind loyalty is called yu zhong (direct translation is 'foolish loyalty') Thank for helping to translate to chinese. I was talking to her and only she know it better. Sorry for the misunderstanding. -
Anyone cared to help me to discuss about the relationships and the mandate of Heaven. Cheers.
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Thanks for reminding me of poor english..My english is no good and I studied no much..Sorry for making you suffer with my english.Originally posted by chenc:
Really sorry.. -
ur quality of discussion is not worth me discussing...
no head no tail, luan luan whack, english so poor, concept so weak -
Sincerely apologised for making you suffered because of my poor english..and whatsoever you mentioned.Originally posted by FireIce:ur quality of discussion is not worth me discussing...
no head no tail, luan luan whack, english so poor, concept so weak
I studied no much...english no good..so so sorry to have you suffered. -
The "Six Relationships" or "Six Relations," (Liu Lun) are supposed to be the basis of all social connections between persons, and all six are based on the fundamental relationship between parents and children. Thus they are all variations of xiao, or "filial piety" (Latin pietas filialis), the religious respect that children owe to their parents. Originally, the "six" referred to the six members of three sets of relations, as follows:
Superior Subordinate
1 Father (fu) Son (zi)
2 Husband (fu) Wife (fu)
3 Elder Brother (Xiong) Younger Brother (di)
Different versions of these three sets can be found, however, and it is possible to expand the system so as to contain six entirely different sets of relations, including the following:
Superior Subordinate
4 Prince (jun) Minister (chen)
5 Friend (peng) Friend (you)
6 Teacher (xiansheng) Student (xuesheng)
While the classic form of the six relationships did contain only three pairs, the later influence of the theory of the five elements gave the impression that there should be "five relationships," (wu lun). Being an odd number, five relationships would require five whole pairs, not two and a half pairs. These are given with the Chinese Elements. Teacher and student seems to be the pair that gets left out in that version -- here distinguished by a darker background, and by my not being aware of a simple two-character expression for the relationship, as with the other five.
In each of the relationships, the superior member (father, husband, etc.) has the duty of benevolence and care for the subordinate member (son, wife, etc.). The subordinate member has the duty of obedience. The only exception might be the relationship between friend and friend, which may actually involve equality -- unless, of course, one is older than the other, which would turn it into a relationship like that between older and younger brother. The reverential attitude toward the teacher (rather like the relationship in India to the guru) may be easily seen in the Bruce Lee movie The Chinese Connection, in which Bruce Lee avenges the murder of his boxing master, whom he all but worships, by the Japanese in 1930's Shanghai. The expression teacher (xiansheng) (sensei, also "teacher," in Japanese) is used today for the title "Mr." in Modern Chinese. In European languages, we see feudal titles like "lord" (Señor, Herr) and "master" used as such an honorific, while in Chinese it is "teacher" instead.
Unlike India, where social obedience was absolute and, for instance, a wife was supposed to obey and worship her husband even if he was worthless, unfaithful, abusive, etc. (because it would be her karma to be in such a relationship), obedience in the Six Relationships in China was contingent on the superior member actually observing their duty to be benevolent, (ren), and caring. Since the highest Confucian "obedience" is to do what is right, "true" obedience to parents, husband, ruler, etc. is to refuse to obey any orders to do what is wrong.
Refusal to obey the emperor out of "true" obedience could, of course, get one put to death; and Chinese history celebrates such martyrs. An emperor who was no longer benevolent, however, could also be overthrown, and that is an interesting consequence of the conditional nature of obedience. In this area, the matter is usually stated as part of the theory of the Tian Ming, the "Mandate of Heaven." This means at least four things, the first two of which are already present in the thought of Confucius himself:
1 The moral order of the universe: Thus Confucius says, "At fifty I understood the Mandate of Heaven" [Analects II:4], i.e. knew what right and wrong were.
2 Fate: Thus, in the Analects one of Confucius's students is quoted as saying, "Life and death are the Mandate of Heaven," i.e. beyond our control [Analects XII:5].
3 The right to rule: This becomes the most important meaning of the "Mandate of Heaven." Knowing the moral order of the universe and actually observing it make one a worthy ruler. Otherwise one has no business, and no right, being in power. Such an idea is quite different from mediaeval European ideas about government, where the king (Pope, emperor, or whatever) often derived authority directly from God and was answerable only to God. There was therefore no right to rebellion in Western thought until the Protestant Reformation (which questioned the authority of Catholic rulers).
4 The judgment of history: This combines the "right to rule" with "fate," for the Chinese view was that losing the Mandate of Heaven as the right to rule would shortly be followed by the actual loss of power. The historical precedent for this was the brief and ferocious rule of the Qin Dynasty (255-207 BC) followed by the more benign and durable tenure of the Han emperors (the Former Han 206 BC-25 AD, the Later Han 25 AD-220). This becomes a principle that informs the writing of Chinese history: Beginning with the Later Han Dynasty, one of first acts of a traditional Chinese dynasty was the commissioning of an official history of the previous dynasty (in that case the great History of the Former HÃ n Dynasty). Such a history in effect becomes the certificate of legitimacy for the new dynasty, showing how the previous dynasty was at first benevolent but then eventually lost the Mandate of Heaven, which means it was the obligation of the new dynasty to replace it. The history of the last Chinese dynasty, the Qing (1644-1912), was completed by the government of the Republic of China on Taiwan. -
Do you believe the superior-subordinate relationship of husband and wife, as described in the Confucius teaching, is harmful for gender equity? I believe so.
Such teaching must be adjusted and refined to include the ongoing enligthenment as we humans progress throughout the ages. Including namely the importance of gender equity.
I believe the teaching of the superior-subordinate relationship of husband and wife must be re-examined in light of the present environment of acquired and acknowledged importance of gender equity, so as not to undermine or compromise the said achievement of continuous progress of gender equity. -
He must his reason putting it that way. Personally, I think relationship is better with his way. I don't degree with your thinking, except you see the number of divorce rate these days, it's better to be not married then.
Actually, woman is always the winner unknowingly..and the man is always the loser..Man work to ensure woman are happy. Anyway, I would like my future partner to look after my family instead wanting her to earn for the family. Having her personal life is acceptable. -
king,
care to apply a confucius analysis on the pap:
e.g. calling people riffrafts,
threatening the chances for upgrading if not voted in,
paying MPs high salaries to prevent corruption,
suing the 60 yrs old printer of SDP. -
Ya, now I see why his teaching is harmful. Just look at how you think.
No offense. Just showing an example or application.
Because of such teaching from many centuries ago, which is being perpetuated again and again, without any modification or refinement or recalibration throughout the ages to incorporate and accomodate the achievements and progress acquired by society, including namely gender equity, which is overlooked and not incorporated at all, as a result the perpetuation of such teaching in its original mode from centuries ago is actually harmful for a progressive society. -
Originally posted by Cindyfeh:king,
care to apply a confucius analysis on the pap:
e.g. calling people riffrafts,
threatening the chances for upgrading if not voted in,
paying MPs high salaries to prevent corruption,
suing the 60 yrs old printer of SDP. Cannot..cause I am not in the right position to say the right word.
"Ming bu Zheng, Yan bu Soon" .."Bu Chai Qi Wei, Bu Mo Qi Zhi"..Refer to Mandate in Heaven will tell you what will happen..need me tell no more. Remember to love.."Ren Ai"..the basis of a good ruler..I am no Li Ao..but I also hatre Japanese man... -
His teaching is realistic, however..he did foreseen that problem of how people applying it to their advantage..He promoted love..self respect, and many others..Originally posted by Li Ka Shing:
However, are people really practising it..Don't doubt him..Li Ao is a good practiser of Gong Zi..hence I am learning to apply too..
Sorry..my knowledge is still very weak..may not be able to explain that good..I only know good old thing must kept..
You may ask some other real experts..I wouldn't wanted to "carry door, swing axe" infront of you..
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Fellow Cindyfeh..can use this one to reply you..Originally posted by grandeur:
Confucius said: to love to learn is to approach wisdom, to work hard at doing what is good is to approach benevolence, to know shame is to approach fearlessness. He who knows these three things knows how to cultivate himself. He who knows how to cultivate himself knows how to rule men; he who knows how to rule men knows how to govern an empire. -
I hope this will be simple..
Zi Gong is student, while Gong Zi is the master
Zi Gong asked : All villagers loved and praised him, is he good?
Gong Zi replied: No sure yet
Zi Gong asked again: All villagers disliked, hated him, is he good?
Gong Zi replied: This is also no sure yet, he added : The best is all good villagers loved him while all bad villagers disliked him.
To judge a person is not that simple and easy. However, Gong Zi hold on a principle that no to base on general likening and disliking as the guideline. Instead he used the evil and kindhearted as standard.
Listen to public opinion is appropriate and can also be a tool to judge his characters. However, this must no be the only tool. -
Allow me to quote
Confucius' Political Philosophy
Confucius' political philosophy is also rooted in his belief that a ruler should learn self-discipline, should govern his subjects by his own example, and should treat them with love and concern. “If the people be led by laws, and uniformity among them be sought by punishments, they will try to escape punishment and have no sense of shame. If they are led by virtue, and uniformity sought among them through the practice of ritual propriety, they will possess a sense of shame and come to you of their own accord.” (Lunyu 2.3; see also 13.6.) It seems apparent that in his own day, however, advocates of more legalistic methods were winning a large following among the ruling elite. Thus Confucius' warning about the ill consequences of promulgating law codes should not be interpreted as an attempt to prevent their adoption but instead as his lament that his ideas about the moral suasion of the ruler were not proving popular.
Most troubling to Confucius was his perception that the political institutions of his day had completely broken down. He attributed this collapse to the fact that those who wielded power as well as those who occupied subordinate positions did so by making claim to titles for which they were not worthy. When asked by a ruler of the large state of Qi, Lu's neighbor on the Shandong peninsula, about the principles of good government, Confucius is reported to have replied: “Good government consists in the ruler being a ruler, the minister being a minister, the father being a father, and the son being a son.” (Lunyu 12.11) If I claim for myself a title and attempt to participate in the various hierarchical relationships to which I would be entitled by virtue of that title, then I should live up to the meaning of the title that I claim for myself. Confucius' analysis of the lack of connection between actualities and their names and the need to correct such circumstances is usually referred to as Confucius' theory of zhengming. Elsewhere in the Analects, Confucius says to his disciple Zilu that the first thing he would do in undertaking the administration of a state is zhengming. (Lunyu 13.3). Xunzi composed an entire essay entitled Zhengming. But for Xunzi the term referred to the proper use of language and how one should go about inventing new terms that were suitable to the age. For Confucius, zhengming does not seem to refer to the ‘rectification of names’ (this is the way the term is most often translated by scholars of the Analects), but instead to rectifying behavior of people so that it exactly corresponds to the language with which they identify and describe themselves. Confucius believed that this sort of rectification had to begin at the very top of the government, because it was at the top that the discrepancy between names and actualities had originated. If the ruler's behavior is rectified then the people beneath him will follow suit. In a conversation with Ji Kangzi (who had usurped power in Lu), Confucius advised: “If your desire is for good, the people will be good. The moral character of the ruler is the wind; the moral character of those beneath him is the grass. When the wind blows, the grass bends.” (Lunyu 12.19)
For Confucius, what characterized superior rulership was the possession of de or ‘virtue.’ Conceived of as a kind of moral power that allows one to win a following without recourse to physical force, such ‘virtue’ also enabled the ruler to maintain good order in his state without troubling himself and by relying on loyal and effective deputies. Confucius claimed that, “He who governs by means of his virtue is, to use an analogy, like the pole-star: it remains in its place while all the lesser stars do homage to it.” (Lunyu 2.1) The way to maintain and cultivate such royal ‘virtue’ was through the practice and enactment of li or ‘rituals’—the ceremonies that defined and punctuated the lives of the ancient Chinese aristocracy. These ceremonies encompassed: the sacrificial rites performed at ancestral temples to express humility and thankfulness; the ceremonies of enfeoffment, toasting, and gift exchange that bound together the aristocracy into a complex web of obligation and indebtedness; and the acts of politeness and decorum—such things as bowing and yielding—that identified their performers as gentlemen. In an influential study, Herbert Fingarette argues that the performance of these various ceremonies, when done correctly and sincerely, involves a ‘magical’ quality that underlies the efficacy of royal ‘virtue’ in accomplishing the aims of the ruler.