Your God is not who you think he is.
-
fact: no one has, nor can prove the non-existance of GodOriginally posted by skyfoo:fact: no one has proven the existance of god.
fact: the source of bible is a mystery.
fact: atheists have higher IQ than religious ppls.
fact: many research has been done on the origin of the bible, these are available at your friendly neighbourhood library. Or in fact, you can read the bible itself to find out about it.
Instead of being bias as you have been, I must first say there are atheists who have a higher IQ than religious people but the reverse is true as well. Furthermore, IQ is not an exclusive guage of intelligence. Here's a selection of outspoken christians in their respective sectors
Business: H.G Heinz
Politics: George Washington
Science: Issac Newton
Arts: C.S Lewis
C.S Lewis was an atheist and "very angry with God for not existing", but in order to put together a cogent argument in response to his friend Tolkien's evangelism, he ended up discovering and understanding christianity. You should do the same before babbling.
Lewis went on to write "Surprised by Joy", an account of his quest for understanding God and also "The Chronicles of Narnia", which as you would know, is a christian parallel for kids. -
Because God hates evil. Good and bad does not go well together, even a 3year old can understand and believe that.Originally posted by casino_king:In your opinion; why would God create hell? Why not just let them die and that's it?
Therefore mistakes and sins have consequences. But you don't have to bear it yourself, God offered a way out, a redemption by blood, the heaviest price possible and by His transforming grace you can slowly, but surely become a better person. Christ offered you a way to heaven, why do you bother about hell if you're not going there? -
If i said that Santa Claus exists, would you believe it? In fact, if i claim that Santa Claus exists, the onus is on me to prove it. The default position is to disblieve, or lack of belief in lieu with the lack of supporting evidence.Originally posted by jdmrocks:Well said!
Thing is, when it comes to religion matters, no one has the right tell you what's real and what's not, simply because no one knows 'the truth'.
Believe in what you want to believe.
Anyway what do you guys think? One thing is for sure though, that there IS a Creator out there. Once again someone may flame me and say its an assumption, but, look around you. Look at nature and science, why do things just come so beautifully together? Someone must have set it this way, i.e the Creator. We all know that nothing is accomplished unless something is done; things do not just exist so systematically and well-thought out on its own...
What you say is quite true, there could well be a creator of our marvelous universe. But i do suspect faulty reasoning when anyone claims that their god is that creator.
Also note that saying that there is a creator, says nothing about its attributes, motivation, or if it still exists. As such, it cannot be determined that the creator of the universe is an entity worthy of worship.
C.S Lewis claims to be an atheist. If he didn't believe in any gods, then there's no God to be angry about for not existing since God's very existence is being doubted. From his biography and his works, i do believe he lived his life as agnostic rather than atheistical.Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:C.S Lewis was an atheist and "very angry with God for not existing",
So... did your God create everything? Did he create evil too? Oh wait.. i know what you're going to say. He gave us free will. Isn't that funny, God knows everything, has limitless power, gave me free will but doesn't give me enough supporting evidence of his own existence, knowing full well that as such i would make the wrong choice. And God is good.Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:Because God hates evil. Good and bad does not go well together, even a 3year old can understand and believe that.
Therefore mistakes and sins have consequences. But you don't have to bear it yourself, God offered a way out, a redemption by blood, the heaviest price possible and by His transforming grace you can slowly, but surely become a better person. Christ offered you a way to heaven, why do you bother about hell if you're not going there?
Really, i don't understand. -
fact: no one has, nor can prove the non-existance of God
It is the same as no one can prove me wrong if I say there exists invinsible unicorns tat r so smart and elusive tat human have not discover them
The burden of proving lies on the claimant not opponents otherwise anybody can make any claims they like and everybody have to follow it.Look at nature and science, why do things just come so beautifully together? Someone must have set it this way, i.e the Creator
Perhaps living beings evolve to suit our environment. Nature is beautiful itself. Why add god into the picture fact: many research has been done on the origin of the bible, these are available at your friendly neighbourhood library. Or in fact, you can read the bible itself to find out about it.
Many research has also prove tat the content of bible is contradictory as well as unscientificBusiness: H.G Heinz
in the past if u r not a christian, u will be immensely unpopular and probably be hanged up like a witch
Politics: George Washington
Science: Issac Newton
Arts: C.S LewisBecause God hates evil. Good and bad does not go well together, even a 3year old can understand and believe that.
First u say tat god hates evil, tat is why he create hell. Then u say there is a shortcut out of hell. Isn't tat defeating the original purpose of hell ?
Therefore mistakes and sins have consequences. But you don't have to bear it yourself, God offered a way out, a redemption by blood, the heaviest price possible and by His transforming grace you can slowly, but surely become a better person. Christ offered you a way to heaven, why do you bother about hell if you're not going there? This makes hell sounds like part of a blackmail or threat -
I think the truth is not the most important thing. To me, the consequence of choosing to believe or not to believe in a certain faith - the subsequent actions and the resulting consequences, are more important.
-
To believe, I thought is to believe in wat u preceive to be the truth In fact I thought people can only believe in wat they think is true and not wat they like to believe...
If a relative/friend is dead, I have to believe they r dead and not imagine they r still alive even if I like to believe they r alive. If I am retrenched, I can't go about happily believing I am still working evenm though I prefer to believe I am still working IMO people believe wat they like to believe instead of the truth is either living in self denial or escaping from reality.... -
your 1st fact is, i would to say to the typical christians, DUMB. you dun claim something exists and asks others to prove the otherwise. please think with your brain that your beloved god gives u. king kong exists, prove it's not.Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:fact: no one has, nor can prove the non-existance of God
fact: many research has been done on the origin of the bible, these are available at your friendly neighbourhood library. Or in fact, you can read the bible itself to find out about it.
Instead of being bias as you have been, I must first say there are atheists who have a higher IQ than religious people but the reverse is true as well. Furthermore, IQ is not an exclusive guage of intelligence. Here's a selection of outspoken christians in their respective sectors
Business: H.G Heinz
Politics: George Washington
Science: Issac Newton
Arts: C.S Lewis
C.S Lewis was an atheist and "very angry with God for not existing", but in order to put together a cogent argument in response to his friend Tolkien's evangelism, he ended up discovering and understanding christianity. You should do the same before babbling.
Lewis went on to write "Surprised by Joy", an account of his quest for understanding God and also "The Chronicles of Narnia", which as you would know, is a christian parallel for kids.
as for ur 2nd fact, it's not a fact after all. having learned history, we know that nothing in history is 100% factual and ur origin of bible is of thousands yrs? this again shows your intelligence and will go on to prove my 3rd fact right.
many researches have shown religious ppls are dumber, opps lower IQ i mean, than non-religious ppls. pls get ur facts right. here's the link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
IQ is indeed not an exclusive gauge of intelligence but it's being used as an yardstick to measure intelligence. it's the same as GDP used by govts. although there's alot of flaws in measuring the national income of the countries, GDP is still used to compare the economic progress of countries as it's the closest measurement they can use. therefore, u're just like any typical christian, self-righteous and will say anything to defend your religion even if it's not true. it's proven with the words u say. amen. -
Oh my Silent Hill
-
What exactly are you trying to prove? That intellect ensures that atheists are correct in their beliefs? Then let me let u this...Originally posted by skyfoo:fact: atheists have higher IQ than religious ppls.
Higher intellect isn't the only thing that gets you close to God, or even become him. In fact it can get you further away from him. Because of intellectual advancements, like in science and tech, you have war and disruption, atom bombs and stuff. Terrorists planned out their acts with a lot of intellect. Well-planned assasinations and murders need a lot of intellect, don't they? Do you still think now that intelligence is more important than morality and compassion? Hasn't intelligence proved to be fallible?
We need peace in the world, and that's not there right now because we havent cared to think of god/humanity. And thats what religion, interpreted rightly, teaches us.
You can use intellect to theorise about God, and the only evidence you have to prove that your arguments are true is logic. but have you ever experienced your belief as a truth? Only experience proves the truth. Not intellectual arguments no matter how logical.
Religious people have had such experiences. Ever read those published interviews of any of the seventy thousand who saw the miracle of the sun at Fatima? What about the blood of Saint Januarius that liquefys and congeals, magically, ever year in Italy? What about medical miracles that happen to certain people?
There goes this story about a man then there is a story abt some scientists who come across a dead lion. One of the scientists says, "I can revive it and then make it stand."
Another says, "No big deal, I can fill flesh into it."
Then the lion is made to stand and all the flesh comes back to it...
the 3rd scientist boasted, "I can fill life into it."
and he did that - the lion roared and killed all of them.
Just to show that intellect used for advancements in science & tech will destroy us one day if we r not cautious.
And let me assure you before you try to say I'm saying all this because I'm a religious zealot full of unfounded beliefs in my God.My religion has proved to work well for me in my life, it has provided me with the faith I think most of us need in troubled times like these. I think religion does serve this purpose for a lot of people and it's worth standing up for. -
CS Lewis is an Anglican (Christian).Originally posted by lbandit:C.S Lewis claims to be an atheist. If he didn't believe in any gods, then there's no God to be angry about for not existing since God's very existence is being doubted. From his biography and his works, i do believe he lived his life as agnostic rather than atheistical.
Get your facts right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.S._Lewis
Conversion to Christianity
Although raised in a churchgoing family in the Church of Ireland, Lewis was an atheist for much of his youth. His separation from Christianity began when he started to view his religion as a chore and as a duty. He also gained an interest in the occult as his studies expanded as to include such topics. Lewis quoted Lucretius as having one of the strongest arguments for atheism:
Nequaquam nobis divinitus esse paratam
Naturam rerum; tanta stat praedita culpa
Had God designed the world, it would not be
A world so frail and faulty as we see.
When he later wrote an account of his adult reconversion to Christianity, under the title Surprised by Joy, he said that he had been "very angry with God for not existing". Some interpret this to mean that he did not so much reject the existence of God as harbour anger at God for the unfairnesses in life. This interpretation appears to be contradicted by a letter to a friend, in which he said: "all religions, no, mythologies to give them their proper name, have no proof whatsoever!" Later in his life, however, he began to believe in a deeper experience of some fundamentals of Western thought.
Influenced by arguments with his Oxford colleague and Roman Catholic friend J. R. R. Tolkien, and by G.K. Chesterton's book, The Everlasting Man, he slowly rediscovered Christianity. In 1929, he came to believe in the existence of God although he fought greatly against it. He describes his last struggle in Surprised by Joy:
"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England." In 1931, after a lengthy discussion with Tolkien and another close friend, Hugo Dyson, he reconverted to Christianity and (to the regret of Tolkien) joined the Church of England. He noted, "I came into Christianity kicking and screaming."
Although an Anglican, Lewis' Catholic leanings appeared to influence his beliefs; he accepted the Catholic doctrine of mortal sin, implying that he believed a Christian could lose their salvation, a belief somewhat at odds with reformed views on justification. This opinion was thoroughly explored in Lewis' book The Screwtape Letters. (disputed — see talk page) Lewis also accepted the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. -
Higher intellect isn't the only thing that gets you close to God, or even become him. In fact it can get you further away from him
From your view r u saying tat the more stupid people are, the more closer u get to god ? I think tat with no intellectual, men r no different from animals The problem with stupidity is the more stupid people is, the more likely they get conned or cheated, and the less likely they know wat is right or wrong. Frankly I don't know why r u defending the idea tat stupidity is good... -
Another point to add to my earlier post:
One of the spiritual experiences that people go through is called Near-Death Experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience)
Quote from the article:
Core NDE experiencers, in particular, tend to be convinced of the reality of the experience as an intimation of the afterlife. This includes those with agnostic/atheist inclinations before the experience. Many former atheists, such as the The Rev. Howard Storm (Rodrigues, 2004) [2] have adopted a more spiritual view of life after their NDEs.
Just goes to prove that the anti-religious logic employed by such atheists just goes out the window when you actually experience the truth. -
I'm definitely not saying that stupidity is good. I'm saying that your argument (whatever your point was when you said atheist have higher IQ) is flawed. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. Yeah, it is very logical. But what I'm trying to say is that in spiritual terms, you can't understand the truth about God, through mere intellect and reasoning. God can't be reached through just intellect - He is more than that. This is because intellect alone is fallible (see earlier post for evidence). You need to have a solid set of morality and conscience, you need to have faith, goodwill. Spiritual experiences like the above mentioned are examples of what I am saying.Originally posted by stupidissmart:From your view r u saying tat the more stupid people are, the more closer u get to god ? I think tat with no intellectual, men r no different from animals The problem with stupidity is the more stupid people is, the more likely they get conned or cheated, and the less likely they know wat is right or wrong. Frankly I don't know why r u defending the idea tat stupidity is good... -
So According to the same webpage it is stated tat the effect may be due to
A well-known scientific hypothesis that attempts to explain NDEs was originally suggested by Dr. Karl Jansen (1995;1997) and deals with accounts of the side-effects of the drug Ketamine. Ketamine was used as an anesthetic on U.S. soldiers during the Vietnam War; but its use was abandoned and never spread to civilian use because the soldiers complained about sensations of floating above their body and seeing bright lights. Further experiments by numerous researchers verified that intravenous injections of ketamine could reproduce all of the commonly cited features of an NDE; including a sense that the experience is "real" and that one is actually dead, separation from the body, visions of loved ones, and transcendent mystical experiences.Just goes to prove that the anti-religious logic employed by such atheists just goes out the window when you actually experience the truth.
Well, from the experience, how do u know which is the truth ? It may be a "buddhist", "taoist", "islam", "nature" phenomenon. Not all people who had experience NDE becomes christians -
Well, from the experience, how do u know which is the truth ? It may be a "buddhist", "taoist", "islam", "nature" phenomenon. Not all people who had experience NDE becomes christians
How can you deny something when you experience it? For example, if you accidentally cut yourself, do you wonder whether what you are feeling is pain or not? Do you think about what pain is supposed to feel like? No, you just know it's pain because you are experiencing it. You just know it's an unpleasant sensation. In the same way from an experience you just know what the truth is only when you experience it for yourself. How else would you explain Rev. Howard Storm's total conversion? Notice it is said "many former atheist... adopted a more spiritual view of life." It didn't specify Christianity. It could be any religion.[/quote] -
I'm definitely not saying that stupidity is good. I'm saying that your argument (whatever your point was when you said atheist have higher IQ) is flawed. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. Yeah, it is very logical. But what I'm trying to say is that in spiritual terms, you can't understand the truth about God, through mere intellect and reasoning.
Last time chairman mao condemn those people who had knowledge to be the one of the lower class people in the country. Why will intellectual and reasoning be wrong in telling wat is right or wrong ? If god is true, intellectual and reasoning should only make it more easier to believe in god and not the opposite. Why does intelligence point the opposite direction to know "god" ? Sounds illogical isn't it ? U mean god purposely make itself popular among the irrational and people who do not use intellectual ? U mean god do not like thinking people but like dumb ones who dumbly followed wat is said to them ? It is more easy to come to the conclusion tat the church do not like people to question their faith as they have no answers to it. The more people ask questions the more loopholes is found and the more it sounds silly to believe in itGod can't be reached through just intellect - He is more than that. This is because intellect alone is fallible (see earlier post for evidence). You need to have a solid set of morality and conscience, you need to have faith, goodwill. Spiritual experiences like the above mentioned are examples of what I am saying.
With faith, u can believe in anything in tis world. U can even believe in santa claus or tooth fairies if u have faith and abandon intelligence. -
Like I have stressed in my previous posts, I am not talking about abandoning intelligence totally. You can have intelligence or not (everybody has some level of intelligence) but what really matters is how you use that intelligence. Which is where morality and choice comes into the question. and religion provides you with a set of moral codes. you need to have faith in love, a right faith in God to know you are doing things the right way in life, in a way that benefits yourself and humanity.Originally posted by stupidissmart:With faith, u can believe in anything in tis world. U can even believe in santa claus or tooth fairies if u have faith and abandon intelligence. -
How can you deny something when you experience it? For example, if you accidentally cut yourself, do you wonder whether what you are feeling is pain or not? Do you think about what pain is supposed to feel like? No, you just know it's pain because you are experiencing it. You just know it's an unpleasant sensation. In the same way from an experience you just know what the truth is only when you experience it for yourself.
For pain, there is a logical reason why there is pain as well as it is verifiable and indisputable. Is there another explanation why pain comes about For personal experience, there r many possible answers to it but people choose to accept the one they like best. In the case of NDE, there is a medical reason for it but people prefer to accept the spiritual one.How else would you explain Rev. Howard Storm's total conversion? Notice it is said "many former atheist... adopted a more spiritual view of life." It didn't specify Christianity. It could be any religion
There r many people who convert to christainity/buddhist/islam and vice versa. Tis is further amplified by he nearly dying once. People who r near deathbed r the easiest to convert. Wat explanation do u expect ? Just because he convert means god must be true and every other religion wrong ? -
Like I have stressed in my previous posts, I am not talking about abandoning intelligence totally. You can have intelligence or not (everybody has some level of intelligence) but what really matters is how you use that intelligence. Which is where morality and choice comes into the question. and religion provides you with a set of moral codes. you need to have faith in love, a right faith in God to know you are doing things the right way in life, in a way that benefits yourself and humanity.
Talking about choice, wat do u relies on before making the choice of christainity/buddhist/islam/taoist ? All of them promotes morality. Any experience u have can be from any religion. U can't have faith in something before u make a choice. In the end either u rely on your friends/parents or your own intelligence or u have no choice (parents forced u to stick with a religion). Sad to say, only 1 or none of the choices made is right since they contradicts each other greatly. How do u distinguish which is the right religion to follow ? In the end u r relying on intelligence and tat is why it is important. -
Actually, for me Christianity assures me most.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Talking about choice, wat do u relies on before making the choice of christainity/buddhist/islam/taoist ? All of them promotes morality. Any experience u have can be from any religion. U can't have faith in something before u make a choice. In the end either u rely on your friends/parents or your own intelligence.
Buddhist/Islam/Taoist won't give u the assurance u are saved. U will have to do good and be good. And chances are..... it still depends on karma/almighty whether u are saved/enlightened or not..... -
So why not just extinguish the evil person; why create a hell where that person suffers eternally. Suffer endlessly? That is GOOD? Even a 3 year old will tell that you are talking nonsense. Try again.Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:Because God hates evil. Good and bad does not go well together, even a 3year old can understand and believe that.
Therefore mistakes and sins have consequences. But you don't have to bear it yourself, God offered a way out, a redemption by blood, the heaviest price possible and by His transforming grace you can slowly, but surely become a better person. Christ offered you a way to heaven, why do you bother about hell if you're not going there? -
i really think u have a severe mental disorder....Originally posted by casino_king:So why not just extinguish the evil person; why create a hell where that person suffers eternally. Suffer endlessly? That is GOOD? Even a 3 year old will tell that you are talking nonsense. Try again. -
The "right" religion is something that has worked consistently for you in life, from where you get faith and a moral code which is beneficial to follow in your everyday life. You can choose it based on your experiences and understanding and what has worked for you, dont' you agree? Example if you were a Christian from birth, if it works for you, then what is wrong in having faith and following it? And I'm not saying following it blindly - you know it is true when it something you can rely on to give you a direction that gives you rewards. if you find something is not acceptable, you convert.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Talking about choice, wat do u relies on before making the choice of christainity/buddhist/islam/taoist ? All of them promotes morality. Any experience u have can be from any religion. U can't have faith in something before u make a choice. In the end either u rely on your friends/parents or your own intelligence or u have no choice (parents forced u to stick with a religion). Sad to say, only 1 or none of the choices made is right since they contradicts each other greatly. How do u distinguish which is the right religion to follow ? In the end u r relying on intelligence and tat is why it is important.
You said none of the choices made is right since it 'contradicts' one another. I disagree - the main idea of a religion, no matter what religion, is that there is a higher being worthy of your respect. You have faith in this being and you pray. You adopt a way to life your life based on the teachings of this being, and the essential teaching are about humility, love, goodwill, abstinence from sin. IT's not that different. It's a matter of how you adopt these beliefs, the way you carry them out. -
well that thats good for you. but form my point of view.Originally posted by casino_king:Like I said, if you are not interested, then that is your perogative. I am just telling of my experience. I am not even selling you Jesus bacause I am not asking you to believe in Jesus in the traditional Christian sense... that is, put you faith in Him. I am just telling you that I understand what Jesus was proclaiming becuase I had similar experiences of what He said.
As far as I am concern Jesus was pointing mankind to something, Jesus was the finger. You follow the finger and see what the finger was pointing at and then decide if that is where you want to go, for example. That is what you wanted to see, for example.
You can of course follow the finger and then say, no that is not what I want and no, that is not where I want to go.
As far as I am concerned, I followed in Jesus' direction and to use crude terminology, hit the jackpot.
Is believing too much is it a good thing.
for me i think people who believe in something trust their instinct that they think they are real.
but. this proof that they are weak and need a spiritual backing to back them up. -
Because you reap what you sow and once you've done evil you have to pay the price. What goes around comes around.Originally posted by casino_king:So why not just extinguish the evil person; why create a hell where that person suffers eternally. Suffer endlessly? That is GOOD? Even a 3 year old will tell that you are talking nonsense. Try again.