Another NS Serviceman dies again!
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was discusing this wif my collegue last weekOriginally posted by dragg:but what makes them report every case nowadays, if what you said is true?
he mention that bcuz of the large no. of cases in the past and many cover ups,ppl r gettigng more suspicious
hence,they pretty much report it but try their best to make it a grey area regarding some incidents -
That's a very big assumption to make. How many people do you think would allow such information to be released for public consumption? Even in the case of 9/11, all of the victims' families objected to recordings of the victims' last telephone conversations being broadcast because public exposition is just shameful treatment of data pertaining to the victims.Originally posted by olala:no,dun get me wrong
its nt by any means to insult the family and i dun think in anyway it wuld
its juz to make sure that MINDEF is nt covering up anything watsoever
the public is pretty in an uproar over this issue
and its best that watever similar cases might happen in the future,its best to have an autopsy shown to the public
tat way theres black and white
and no covering up of arses
juz my suggestion
How many autopsy reports have you read? Unless you're a medical practicioner or a family member, I'm wagering that the asnwer is none, and for damned good reason. It's simply against medical ethics to treat patient's (living or deceased) information in that manner. Their privacy far outweighs your curiosity. besides, would you even understand an autopsy report if one was placed right in front of you?
The public's always in a bloody uproar about something or other, be it deaths of soldiers, banning of chewing gum or the price of tea in bloody China. That doesn't mean that all training information has to be spread out for every slack-jawed yokel to gape at. Just because Joe Sixpack sitting in his armchair doesn't like something doesn't mean he's right or that he's got the grand solution to it all, as much as he'd love to believe so.
If anything, MINDEF should remember that they are the Ministry of Defence and not an organisation run by Messrs Barnum and Bailey. They're there to do a job and not put on a show. They seem to have completely forgotten that of late, and their knee-jerk reactions resulting from pathetic PR efforts have landed the military in the mess they're currently in. -
u have a point thereOriginally posted by Gedanken:That's a very big assumption to make. How many people do you think would allow such information to be released for public consumption? Even in the case of 9/11, all of the victims' families objected to recordings of the victims' last telephone conversations being broadcast because public exposition is just shameful treatment of data pertaining to the victims.
How many autopsy reports have you read? Unless you're a medical practicioner or a family member, I'm wagering that the asnwer is none, and for damned good reason. It's simply against medical ethics to treat patient's (living or deceased) information in that manner. Their privacy far outweighs your curiosity. besides, would you even understand an autopsy report if one was placed right in front of you?
The public's always in a bloody uproar about something or other, be it deaths of soldiers, banning of chewing gum or the price of tea in bloody China. That doesn't mean that all training information has to be spread out for every slack-jawed yokel to gape at. Just because Joe Sixpack sitting in his armchair doesn't like something doesn't mean he's right or that he's got the grand solution to it all, as much as he'd love to believe so.
If anything, MINDEF should remember that they are the Ministry of Defence and not an organisation run by Messrs Barnum and Bailey. They're there to do a job and not put on a show. They seem to have completely forgotten that of late, and their knee-jerk reactions resulting from pathetic PR efforts have landed the military in the mess they're currently in.
thats y i was pretty sure that there b some who'll voice out like u
i understand that we have got to b sensitive with their everytime 'we-look-into it'
it keeps happening tho
now something happens,we cant bring the dead back to life but that dosent means the public is at rest alothough the LTA have been sent off
from my point of view,if mindef continues to wanna try and cover up most of the issue and try making it a grey area,it only makes the public wanna know wats with the unanswer questions
i admit im nt in NS,however i do know how families are feeling
especially when they sent their son to military and mid way juz to received news that who and who has been killed
they handled their responsibility to the officer and dun u tink the officer shld ensure their safety? -
Originally posted by olala:
That's the singularly most insultingly patronising thing you could possibly say. How could you know how anyone feels? You may understand what they think, but to claim to know how they feel is preposterous.
i admit im nt in NS,however i do know how families are feeling
especially when they sent their son to military and mid way juz to received news that who and who has been killed
they handled their responsibility to the officer and dun u tink the officer shld ensure their safety?[/b]
That you're talking about NS immediately shows that you've got no idea what this case is about. LTA Lin was not only a regular officer, he was in an all-volunteer unit. If he didn't WANT to do the job he could easily have RTUd with no hard feelings from the lot at Force Line.
The fact that he was there showed that he wanted to be there, and it's not an issue of his parents sending him there.
Of course safety's a concern, but by definition the work at SOF is anything but safe - injury and death come with the territory. If you want safety, SOF's the last place you're going to find it, and all volunteers are fully aware of that. The fact that they're there is in itself proof that they've accepted the risks. -
U might say how can i feel wat they feelingOriginally posted by Gedanken:That's the singularly most insultingly patronising thing you could possibly say. How could you know how anyone feels? You may understand what they think, but to claim to know how they feel is preposterous.That you're talking about NS immediately shows that you've got no idea what this case is about. LTA Lin was not only a regular officer, he was in an all-volunteer unit. If he didn't WANT to do the job he could easily have RTUd with no hard feelings from the lot at Force Line.
The fact that he was there showed that he wanted to be there, and it's not an issue of his parents sending him there.
Of course safety's a concern, but by definition the work at SOF is anything but safe - injury and death come with the territory. If you want safety, SOF's the last place you're going to find it, and all volunteers are fully aware of that. The fact that they're there is in itself proof that they've accepted the risks.
yea,i dun have anyone related who pass on during camp but i do have a close friend who ...
i expereinced the loss b4 and hence i claim i do know what they r feeling nw
trust me on that
secondly,no doubt he was a volunteer or nt,thats nt the isssue
the focus is that mindef shld take more to ensure the safety,i see that more culd b done to salvage tho i wun type it down,u can pm if u wan but dun c much point in doing so,cz i believe u do feel that something culd b done mroe or less -
Oh, so you lost a friend and they lost a son, and you know how they're feeling? Would you know how they're feeling if you'd lost a dog in the past? Hell, it's a loss, isn't it?
Just so you know, you're talking to a for-real psychologist here, and even us pros know well enough to stay away from "I know what you're feeling", so please don't try to pass off that "trust me" stuff as proof with me.
So, you say that more could have been done? Well, be specific please - just saying that more could be done is just talk, and talk is cheap.
Let's hear your suggestions. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:That's the singularly most insultingly patronising thing you could possibly say. How could you know how anyone feels? You may understand what they think, but to claim to know how they feel is preposterous.
That you're talking about NS immediately shows that you've got no idea what this case is about. LTA Lin was not only a regular officer, he was in an all-volunteer unit. If he didn't WANT to do the job he could easily have RTUd with no hard feelings from the lot at Force Line.
I do not agree with some of your points.
Being a regular and in SOF implies that you have harsh training, but does not mean that you have to be DEAD! e.g. those people working in shipyards, construction site, firemen, etc...all dangerous work too, but that does not mean that if you die, its part AND PARCEL of your work.
The fact that he was there showed that he wanted to be there, and it's not an issue of his parents sending him there.
The fact that he was there is because he have to attend the training bestowed on him so that he can progress continuously with SAF. But being there, is not of his choice directly.
Of course safety's a concern, but by definition the work at SOF is anything but safe - injury and death come with the territory. If you want safety, SOF's the last place you're going to find it, and all volunteers are fully aware of that. The fact that they're there is in itself proof that they've accepted the risks.
Again, yes, the work comes with danger. But it does not MEAN that lives must be sacrificed! Sometimes you join SOF because your education is not too good and you need the money. SOF's give more allowance, perhaps he needed the money for family problems?
Yes, the fact that they're there means they have accepted the terms and agreement before they signed. But its does not absolve SAF from the matter. -
Certainly any death, training or otherwise, in any job, much less vocation, must be taken seriously, nightzip. If I'd given the impression that LTA Lin's death is not to be taken seriously, then i've misrepresented myself.
However, let's not go to the other end of the scale as olala has done. First, to represent the situation as the family doing their patriotic duty and sending their son for NS, and then being subjected to the injustice of his death, is simply wrong.
You are correct in saying that lives do not have to be sacrificed just because the work is dangerous - it's a job, not a death sentence. Again, though, let's avoid going to the other end of the scale and try to deny that one can GUARANTEE that dangerous work can be performed with zero risk - it wouldn't be dangerous work then, would it?
Yes, it's dangerous work, and yes, nobody should have to die from it. However, the nature of the job is such that the risk is always there, and when something does happen, it needs to be thoroughly investigated.
That said, calling for public autopsies is just plain silly, and I'd have to question what practical good would come out of the public knowing the details of the circumstances surrounding LTA Lin's death. As it is, look at how the public has reacted to other controversial matters in the past, such as the drowning incident. Apart from a handful of people who bothered gathering facts, everybody else was just going off on their own speculations and rabidly drooling in anticipation of the lynch mob they expected to be formed.
Time and time again Joe Public has proven that he can't be trusted with the whole story, because he'll pick up on the juicy bits for his own voyeuristic pleasure and ignore the rest of the truth. In the meantime, all the mindless ranting simply serves one purpose - to obstruct the real work being done to find out what happened and how to prevent it in future.
A death has occurred and it's a very serious matter. Let's be responsible and allow the pros to do their work now, instead of messing things up with well-meaning but misguided interference. -
u gave me the feeling that u wanna win the argumentOriginally posted by Gedanken:Certainly any death, training or otherwise, in any job, much less vocation, must be taken seriously, nightzip. If I'd given the impression that LTA Lin's death is not to be taken seriously, then i've misrepresented myself.
However, let's not go to the other end of the scale as olala has done. First, to represent the situation as the family doing their patriotic duty and sending their son for NS, and then being subjected to the injustice of his death, is simply wrong.
You are correct in saying that lives do not have to be sacrificed just because the work is dangerous - it's a job, not a death sentence. Again, though, let's avoid going to the other end of the scale and try to deny that one can GUARANTEE that dangerous work can be performed with zero risk - it wouldn't be dangerous work then, would it?
Yes, it's dangerous work, and yes, nobody should have to die from it. However, the nature of the job is such that the risk is always there, and when something does happen, it needs to be thoroughly investigated.
That said, calling for public autopsies is just plain silly, and I'd have to question what practical good would come out of the public knowing the details of the circumstances surrounding LTA Lin's death. As it is, look at how the public has reacted to other controversial matters in the past, such as the drowning incident. Apart from a handful of people who bothered gathering facts, everybody else was just going off on their own speculations and rabidly drooling in anticipation of the lynch mob they expected to be formed.
Time and time again Joe Public has proven that he can't be trusted with the whole story, because he'll pick up on the juicy bits for his own voyeuristic pleasure and ignore the rest of the truth. In the meantime, all the mindless ranting simply serves one purpose - to obstruct the real work being done to find out what happened and how to prevent it in future.
A death has occurred and it's a very serious matter. Let's be responsible and allow the pros to do their work now, instead of messing things up with well-meaning but misguided interference.
however i juz wanan stress that tis shld b a disscusion
as to why i know how the parents r feeling,i said i have a friend who die,clsoe one who sucide,however if its nt enuff for u to think that i shld not say that i know how the family r feeling....u can pm me,cz i got anotehr reason which i dun feel like mentioning openly
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Oh, so it's not that you're dead wrong, it's just that I want to win an argument, is it?Originally posted by olala:u gave me the feeling that u wanna win the argument
however i juz wanan stress that tis shld b a disscusion
as to why i know how the parents r feeling,i said i have a friend who die,clsoe one who sucide,however if its nt enuff for u to think that i shld not say that i know how the family r feeling....u can pm me,cz i got anotehr reason which i dun feel like mentioning openly
You need to ask yourself if you're making too big an assumtion that I'm arguing this point for fun. Some of the older members here will know my connection with the dunking incident, and I still hold that at least two good men went down the tubes because of moronic politicians and a bloodthirsty public. Damned if I'm going to see any more of my mates being second-guessed by an ignorant public.
You've got some bloody nerve assuming that I'm in this discussion for fun.
Don't bother with PMs - if you've got something to say, say it here. If you think it's not fit to mention in public, I'll thank you to keep it to yourself instead of making useless oblique references. Unless you're a mind reader, it's plain stupid to claim to know how someone feels.
And you know where you can stick those smilies too. -
like i said im nt here for argument but for discusion,i find ur tone getting offensive and of a certain negative attitudeOriginally posted by Gedanken:Oh, so you lost a friend and they lost a son, and you know how they're feeling? Would you know how they're feeling if you'd lost a dog in the past? Hell, it's a loss, isn't it?
Just so you know, you're talking to a for-real psychologist here, and even us pros know well enough to stay away from "I know what you're feeling", so please don't try to pass off that "trust me" stuff as proof with me.
So, you say that more could have been done? Well, be specific please - just saying that more could be done is just talk, and talk is cheap.
Let's hear your suggestions.
the only thing i can conclude here is that ur nt happy with hw i feel and u felt that losing a friend is nth compare to losing a son
u might b a phychologist but what u cant answer and have no game is that have u even felt the pain of losing a close person b4?
at least i have,and its 2...thats y i dare conclude that i know how she felt,the pain of losign a friend is extreme enuff
so i dun have to mention how the parents r feeling now..i bet they are feeling even worst at the moment
i proven my point,im open to opinions and view but if u gonna go again wif this attitude like
- "I know what you're feeling", so please don't try to pass off that "trust me" stuff as proof with me"
-"Would you know how they're feeling if you'd lost a dog in the past? Hell, it's a loss, isn't it?"
if u gonan do that,i wun b arguing with u as i feel that ur all out to wanna win this argument,keep in mind that this is a discusion and plz make ur point clear when u acuse me of wanting to win this argument
perhaps u wanna back track abit and read again wat i mention,i say that tis is a discusion and nt a argument so why on earth did u say i wanna win this argument?
im here to express my opinion and we are all ehre to see how mindef culd have done better -
and u claim ur nt angry or smth?Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, so it's not that you're dead wrong, it's just that I want to win an argument, is it?
You need to ask yourself if you're making too big an assumtion that I'm arguing this point for fun. Some of the older members here will know my connection with the dunking incident, and I still hold that at least two good men went down the tubes because of moronic politicians and a bloodthirsty public. Damned if I'm going to see any more of my mates being second-guessed by an ignorant public.
You've got some bloody nerve assuming that I'm in this discussion for fun.
Don't bother with PMs - if you've got something to say, say it here. If you think it's not fit to mention in public, I'll thank you to keep it to yourself instead of making useless oblique references. Unless you're a mind reader, it's plain stupid to claim to know how someone feels.
And you know where you can stick those smilies too.
secondly,did i say ur in this discusion for fun?plz read carefully or i might get ugly
i dun think ur in this discusion for fun as i can see that ur pretty mature in ur train of thoughs
however,u have to know that,in this kind of scenario,we cant really define whats right and wrong except sympathise with the family,
Ns aint gonna stop for all males anytime soon so what i believe we can do now,is at least discuse as to how the govt can buck up the system?
i feel that ur offened by me requesting that the govt shld give a public autopsy report
thats juz my view
u see,altho the incident has been made public,theres bound to be some covering of arse in some areas
as to why i suggested that an autopsy be given to the family and at elast to the public is bcuz,families are sent to camps and mindef shld and by right be responsible for the death of the ns men or full time soldier,unless the accident are casued by some foul play
if thats the case,we'll leave out the officer and direct the blame to those involved in foul play
dun ask me where did they cover up,i dun know but i can tell in that incidents such as these,theres bound to be...
its all basic politics
juz like the NFK fruad,some higher ups and important related ppl have been covered up
Don't bother with PMs - if you've got something to say, say it here. If you think it's not fit to mention in public, I'll thank you to keep it to yourself instead of making useless oblique references. Unless you're a mind reader, it's plain stupid to claim to know how someone feels.
and u claim to be a phykaitrist?
no offense,really but the words u type is pretty doutful but i'll give u the benifit of the doubt
ur nt very sensitve and being a psykaitrist,u shld guess why ppl dun wanna post sensitive stuff
if everythings to be type down ehre,i dun see y theres pm
if theres over heated eprsonal attack and defaming is allow on the forum,i dun see why mod wuld hit the ban button and close topic -
You haven't proven anything. All you've done is make big claims and vague statements, then go running off to PM land.Originally posted by olala:like i said im nt here for argument but for discusion,i find ur tone getting offensive and of a certain negative attitude
the only thing i can conclude here is that ur nt happy with hw i feel and u felt that losing a friend is nth compare to losing a son
u might b a phychologist but what u cant answer and have no game is that have u even felt the pain of losing a close person b4?
at least i have,and its 2...thats y i dare conclude that i know how she felt,the pain of losign a friend is extreme enuff
so i dun have to mention how the parents r feeling now..[b]i bet they are feeling even worst at the moment[/b][/quote]
Well, there you go. Yes, you have felt the pain of loss, but even you admit that they're probably feeling even worse than you did, so how can you claim know how they're feeling?
So you assume I haven't been there before? Tell you what - when you've lost a mother to cancer and a father to Parkinson's Disease, then come and talk to me about the pain losing a close person. Despite that, I still wouldn't claim to know how LTA Lin's parents are feeling - it is much worse to lose a child than a parent.
[quote]Originally posted by olala:
i proven my point,im open to opinions and view but if u gonna go again wif this attitude like
- "I know what you're feeling", so please don't try to pass off that "trust me" stuff as proof with me"
-"Would you know how they're feeling if you'd lost a dog in the past? Hell, it's a loss, isn't it?"
if u gonan do that,i wun b arguing with u as i feel that ur all out to wanna win this argument,keep in mind that this is a discusion and plz make ur point clear when u acuse me of wanting to win this argument
perhaps u wanna back track abit and read again wat i mention,i say that tis is a discusion and nt a argument so why on earth did u say i wanna win this argument?
You've also come up with making autopsies public. You claim you know how the family feels, but then you ignore that understanding completely and ask for something as insensitive as makiong all the details of their son public?
It's not a case of me wanting to win an argument. When I see that something's plain stupid, however, I've got no compunction about saying that it's stupid.
And what, pray tell, suggestions do you have for that? Public autopsies? If you're here to explore options like that, why shouldn't I point out how misguided they are?Originally posted by olala:im here to express my opinion and we are all ehre to see how mindef culd have done better -
When you say that i just want to win the argument, the implication is that the actual topic means nothing to me, and in turn that I'm just talking about this for fun. Have I claimed that I'm not angry? Hell no. Stupidity infuriates me.Originally posted by olala:and u claim ur nt angry or smth?
secondly,did i say ur in this discusion for fun?plz read carefully or i might get ugly
You want to get ugly? Go ahead - ugly and stupid go together.
Again and again and again, this case is NOT about NS. Get it out of your head. NS has become play school these days, but somebody has to do some serious work, and that's the regulars, and that's what LTA Lin was.Originally posted by olala:i dun think ur in this discusion for fun as i can see that ur pretty mature in ur train of thoughs
however,u have to know that,in this kind of scenario,we cant really define whats right and wrong except sympathise with the family,
Ns aint gonna stop for all males anytime soon so what i believe we can do now,is at least discuse as to how the govt can buck up the system?
If you want to sympathise with the family, go ahead and I'll give you my full support. Saying that you know how they feel, however, is patronising and certainly not helpful at all.
As for the governnment bucking up the system, we need to be very circumspect about this. When Yong Pung How told Captain Pandiaraj that his past achievements, including heading up the Timor Leste contingent, were "sudah habis", he sent a clear message out to every military officer - if we need a fall guy, we don't care what good work you've done. Do you think that kind of message encourages the people who work to defend this country?
There's a more serious issue here. Training is a complex issue - take it easy on one part and chances are that you'll increase the risk somewhere else. Say we take this case and make the swimming training less tough. What happens when our guys have to storm a ship? Half the CT force drowns because of inadequate training and the ship blows up Pulau Bukom, leaving hundreds dead.
Mind you, I've spent my time at Hendon and I still maintain close contacts within CDO and SOF. Even so, I wouldn't presume to go trying to mess with training programs, because as a member of the public, I don't have anywhere close to enough information to work out the knock-on effects of any corrective course of action. The point here is, leave it to the pros.
Yes, the family should and most likely will receive the autopsy report. YOU, on the other hand, will not and have no right to do so.Originally posted by olala:i feel that ur offened by me requesting that the govt shld give a public autopsy report
thats juz my view
u see,altho the incident has been made public,theres bound to be some covering of arse in some areas
as to why i suggested that an autopsy be given to the family and at elast to the public is bcuz,families are sent to camps and mindef shld and by right be responsible for the death of the ns men or full time soldier,unless the accident are casued by some foul play
if thats the case,we'll leave out the officer and direct the blame to those involved in foul play
Are you aware of the investigative process when an incident like this occurs? Are you aware of the training that takes place? If not, what would make you think that you're qualified to understand what took place?
Entirely speculative on your part. If you're going to play a game of ifs and maybes, don't expect to be taken seriously.Originally posted by olala:dun ask me where did they cover up,i dun know but i can tell in that incidents such as these,theres bound to be...
its all basic politics
juz like the NFK fruad,some higher ups and important related ppl have been covered up
Simple - either lay it all out or don't mention it at all. This silly "I know something but I'm not telling" game is just plain annoying.Originally posted by olala:Don't bother with PMs - if you've got something to say, say it here. If you think it's not fit to mention in public, I'll thank you to keep it to yourself instead of making useless oblique references. Unless you're a mind reader, it's plain stupid to claim to know how someone feels.[/color]
and u claim to be a phykaitrist?
no offense,really but the words u type is pretty doutful but i'll give u the benifit of the doubt
ur nt very sensitve and being a psykaitrist,u shld guess why ppl dun wanna post sensitive stuff
if everythings to be type down ehre,i dun see y theres pm
if theres over heated eprsonal attack and defaming is allow on the forum,i dun see why mod wuld hit the ban button and close topic
If you're not willing to say it in public, don't say it at all. -
The only way to prevent deaths in SAF is to abolish NS and employ robotic soldiers.
