if u want me to believe in god......
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So from what you say, humans make a religion??Originally posted by CyNdI)4.eVa:never see also can believe = delusion??
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.
You never see 'nothing' yet you believe there is such a 'nothing' -
You never seen a pink flying unicorn,do you think there's one out there somewhere?
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Supernatural is unbelieveable because it is unfamiliar to humans. there is no explaination for it, unlike some sciences. Thus, some people say that it is wrong. Is it wrong? OR are we humans too stupid and lack the intelligence to understand and give a explaination to it?
The reason why it is "supernatural" is probbaly tat it is not verified and the only evidence of its existence is just hearsay. Human has no explanation for it not because they r "stupid" but rather there is no explanation for something tat doesn't exists or shown to exist.
If u say it is right, then there r probably a few hundred million things to believe in like tooth fairies, snow white, santa claus, or invisible pink unicorn and flying speghetti monster. Heck u can start believing in all the make believe world in book, anime, manga and moviesIf it is the second, then there is reason to believe in creationsim. Because we simply lack thee intelligence to think God creating men as logical. Another way of saying it, if we have the intelligence, God creating men wouldnt be considered supernatural.
So u r saying creationism doesn't make any sense and it belong to the supernatural ? And why will god make men to be "unnatural" yet create the "natural" world.On the other hand. If God is omnipotent, it is logical to say that he can create humans. The problem therefore, lies on omnipotency. It is the thing that is unfamiliar to humans, therefore, we group it together with creationsim, together with christianity, and say in general, that it is supernatural, while ther unfamiliar thing is only omnipotency(and others stuffs....)
The assumption u made is an omnipotent god exists. If u say tat he is omnipotent, then create men unnaturally, then create a lot of phenomenons and evidence tat shows creationism is crap, and evolution is true, then still want people to believe creationism is true, then I can say tis god is really not omnipotent because he become a contradiction himself by either
1)failing to hide the facts of creationism well enough or
2)people fail to believe in him even when he tryLets say i really show you heaven, you can say it is all illusion.
Moses and the jews believe in him when he appears. Why do u think men will not believe in him when he appears ?
If jesus really comes, you may say, aiya, he is just another magician...
Which is why i say there is no true evidence...in the end, evidence cant prove anything. part of the presuppositions in science is that none of what we see is illusion...What if all you see is illusion?
Then christainity and all its followers is an illusion itself and still not worth believing -
are u speaking greek?Originally posted by davidche:So from what you say, humans make a religion??
You never see 'nothing' yet you believe there is such a 'nothing' -
Haiz... although i dun believe in god i think TS is lame...
btw can see davidche is a strong supporter of god man...everytime got this type of threads he will surely be there.... -
he's a servant of god. be servant in singapore better. at least u get paid. lol.Originally posted by Xtrider:Haiz... although i dun believe in god i think TS is lame...
btw can see davidche is a strong supporter of god man...everytime got this type of threads he will surely be there.... -
u r saying chemistry is not science?Originally posted by davidche:tell me, what law in science is it when a person mixes diluted concrete and uses it as building material??
SIS wins you in this. He has pointed out a critical point.
On the other hand, you have only proven your stupidity and lack of thoughts when you say 'prove God'
Firstly you have to specify and conclude the definition of evidence.
Then, you ought to think about whether a created being(if not assume) has enough knowledge to prove the creator. Or do you know as much as the creator.
After i have finished this chain of thoughts, i found out how small and limited i am. Hope you will experience the same thing.
Cheers and may God grant you wisdom
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mixing: the 2nd law of thermodynamicsOriginally posted by davidche:tell me, what law in science is it when a person mixes diluted concrete and uses it as building material??
SIS wins you in this. He has pointed out a critical point.
On the other hand, you have only proven your stupidity and lack of thoughts when you say 'prove God'
Firstly you have to specify and conclude the definition of evidence.
Then, you ought to think about whether a created being(if not assume) has enough knowledge to prove the creator. Or do you know as much as the creator.
After i have finished this chain of thoughts, i found out how small and limited i am. Hope you will experience the same thing.
Cheers and may God grant you wisdom
use as building material: newton's 2nd law of motion
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Originally posted by davidche:
The supernatural is hard to accept, because the limits of nature have not been fully explored. What used to be attributed to Gods (say lightning and Thor) now have a natural explanation. Science can investigate anything with a clear, testable hypothesis, that can extend into what people perceive as supernatural (for example the JAMA study on aura healing, and a recent study on the power of prayer on patients).
Nope.
Supernatural is unbelieveable because it is unfamiliar to humans. there is no explaination for it, unlike some sciences. Thus, some people say that it is wrong.
To believe in the supernatural immediately without asking hard questions first is intellectual laziness.Is it wrong? OR are we humans too stupid and lack the intelligence to understand and give a explaination to it? (we can give an explaination to why apple drops to the ground.)
You don't need to have an explanation for everything to know that certain things don't work. Gravity for example, is known through human history. Science can give us specific measurements to help us understand its effects reliably, so that we can use this knowledge to build things.
If it is the second, then there is reason to believe in creationsim. Because we simply lack thee intelligence to think God creating men as logical. Another way of saying it, if we have the intelligence, God creating men wouldnt be considered supernatural.
There is absolutely no reason to believe in creationism, whether you are Christian or not, because creationism has no supporting evidence at all. In fact it doesn't have a testable hypothesis, because there is no quantifiable measure for "design", so there is no way to set up experiments to demonstrate it. To be convinced of an idea even before you test it is a bad practice in science.On the other hand. If God is omnipotent, it is logical to say that he can create humans. The problem therefore, lies on omnipotency. It is the thing that is unfamiliar to humans, therefore, we group it together with creationsim, together with christianity, and say in general, that it is supernatural, while ther unfamiliar thing is only omnipotency(and others stuffs....)
You have many assumptions about God which you hold true before they are even tested. Omnipotency is not difficult to imagine. The problem is why you are so confident that God is necessarily omnipotent, simply because somebody wrote this in a book that claims itself to be divine. Since there are so many divine books how can you tell which is correct?
///Just a thought///.....
Scientific facts are usually demonstrated using evidence from a variety of techniques and approaches before they are accepted by the community. You only have one source and you are willing to bet your whole life (and the lives of many people you wish to convert), maybe even eternal life, on this self-referencing source?
Why? -
God knows.Originally posted by Cystaire:You have many assumptions about God which you hold true before they are even tested. Omnipotency is not difficult to imagine. The problem is why you are so confident that God is necessarily omnipotent, simply because somebody wrote this in a book that claims itself to be divine. Since there are so many divine books how can you tell which is correct?
Scientific facts are usually demonstrated using evidence from a variety of techniques and approaches before they are accepted by the community. You only have one source and you are willing to bet your whole life (and the lives of many people you wish to convert), maybe even eternal life, on this self-referencing source?
Why? -
im gunned down left right centre -
Let me give another example.Originally posted by CyNdI)4.eVa:God knows.
In no place in any divine book is it mentioned that God cannot be a Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But when people discovered the concept of FSM, some religious people instantly denounce it as blasphemy or mocking God.
What IF God is the FSM? Or what if He has a sense of humour? All these are possibilities.
God doesn't have to be omnipotent or omniscient in order to be very very very very very very very very powerful. Yet davidche and others instantly accept (and believe with all their heart) that God MUST be omnipotent.
Why? -
Because you are a troll who dont make senseOriginally posted by davidche:im gunned down left right centre -
Just having a discussion, my friend.Originally posted by davidche:im gunned down left right centre
You said: "cos any evidence can be said as illusion. No one can prove illusion. Thus, in the end, it is faith."
Do I trust that my building, the overhead bridge or the bus I take will work properly?
Yes.
Is that faith?
No.
Because we have learnt the scientific basis of their functioning, be it civil engineering, metallurgy or internal combustion engines. These are reliable things that work day in day out, and if maintained properly can last a long long time.
Their operation is not an illusion. People have made millions of buildings, bridges and vehicles. You don't have to use faith to "believe" they'll work - you can simply test them.
And you must. In order to be certified all these have to be checked.
Everything in everyday life is checked carefully, from machines to food and drugs. Yet a social system that promises eternal life (which could be good or bad) can escape the usual checks and balances by appealing to "faith" and "personal revelation".
Why? -
TS is ok what. He is only asking for evidences. Just like anyone of you.Originally posted by Xtrider:Haiz... although i dun believe in god i think TS is lame...
btw can see davidche is a strong supporter of god man...everytime got this type of threads he will surely be there.... -
If a man tells you he loves you but will send you to Hell to burn for all eternity if you don't believe in him, you would be alarmed.Originally posted by davidche:TS is ok what. He is only asking for evidences. Just like anyone of you.
If his love is infinite but by your choice (which could be misinformed because you are not perfect) he decides to give you an ultimate punishment that lasts forever (despite the fact that he made you and knows your flaws), why should you trust him?
But yet you believe God with all your heart and would bet eternal life on him.
Why? -
Of course buses and buildings work.Originally posted by Cystaire:Just having a discussion, my friend.
You said: "cos any evidence can be said as illusion. No one can prove illusion. Thus, in the end, it is faith."
Do I trust that my building, the overhead bridge or the bus I take will work properly?
Yes.
Is that faith?
No.
Because we have learnt the scientific basis of their functioning, be it civil engineering, metallurgy or internal combustion engines. These are reliable things that work day in day out, and if maintained properly can last a long long time.
Their operation is not an illusion. People have made millions of buildings, bridges and vehicles. You don't have to use faith to "believe" they'll work - you can simply test them.
And you must. In order to be certified all these have to be checked.
Everything in everyday life is checked carefully, from machines to food and drugs. Yet a social system that promises eternal life (which could be good or bad) can escape the usual checks and balances by appealing to "faith" and "personal revelation".
Why?
Where is faith used?
You believe that the building will not fall
things that determine whether the building may fall:
1.physics
2.whether the contractor(or whatever you call it) mixes diluted cement.
3.Whether the workers made any error.
You cant be sure of 2,3
Thus, i still must say you are using faith.
You believe that the building will not fall withought concrete evidence.
That is already the faith(blind) which you atheists say about christianity
Next,
Some stupid people say that why not Jesus come down from heaven right now and show me himself and perform miracles then i will believe!!
Very demanding...
Also, you may still be able to give excuses like say those 'miracles' are just magic and illusion.
Then if Jesus comes down how does he prove that he is Jesus to you?? -
TS: you want evidence.....
''show me heaven''
God tells you this place where you call 'earth' is heaven.
''show me something magical(miracle)''
Apple falling down from the tree is magic, which is called gravity by us.
Now do you believe in God? You wont!
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What i am trying to tell you here is you are stupid to ask for these demands, as truth cannot be bound by evidences. And you, are looking for evidence, which isnt feasible as demonstrated above. What consists an evidence? your eye may decieve you, what if this were all illusion??
Thus, evidence isnt the way to truth. -
becos the bible says so? lol. i dun read that crap anw.Originally posted by Cystaire:Just having a discussion, my friend.
You said: "cos any evidence can be said as illusion. No one can prove illusion. Thus, in the end, it is faith."
Do I trust that my building, the overhead bridge or the bus I take will work properly?
Yes.
Is that faith?
No.
Because we have learnt the scientific basis of their functioning, be it civil engineering, metallurgy or internal combustion engines. These are reliable things that work day in day out, and if maintained properly can last a long long time.
Their operation is not an illusion. People have made millions of buildings, bridges and vehicles. You don't have to use faith to "believe" they'll work - you can simply test them.
And you must. In order to be certified all these have to be checked.
Everything in everyday life is checked carefully, from machines to food and drugs. Yet a social system that promises eternal life (which could be good or bad) can escape the usual checks and balances by appealing to "faith" and "personal revelation".
Why?
anyone interested to join the cult of king huang? it's a cult where everyone donate a little to king huang and king huang will provide a service in return. service:king huang will write a bible and he will write whatever donators want. -
I have expericienced God before.Originally posted by Cystaire:If a man tells you he loves you but will send you to Hell to burn for all eternity if you don't believe in him, you would be alarmed.
If his love is infinite but by your choice (which could be misinformed because you are not perfect) he decides to give you an ultimate punishment that lasts forever (despite the fact that he made you and knows your flaws), why should you trust him?
But yet you believe God with all your heart and would bet eternal life on him.
Why?
The power of faith works in all of us! How you stand in a building without worrying it may collapse.You believe that it wouldnt. -
Why is it so stupid that Jesus not come down from heaven right now and perform miracles to help us believe? After all, (according to you) he did it the first time round.Originally posted by davidche:Of course buses and buildings work.
Where is faith used?
You believe that the building will not fall
things that determine whether the building may fall:
1.physics
2.whether the contractor(or whatever you call it) mixes diluted cement.
3.Whether the workers made any error.
You cant be sure of 2,3
Thus, i still must say you are using faith.
You believe that the building will not fall withought concrete evidence.
That is already the faith(blind) which you atheists say about christianity
Next,
Some stupid people say that why not Jesus come down from heaven right now and show me himself and perform miracles then i will believe!!
Very demanding...
Also, you may still be able to give excuses like say those 'miracles' are just magic and illusion.
Then if Jesus comes down how does he prove that he is Jesus to you??
I am sure that will help many people believe in the Christian God definitively. Of course some scientists will want to test it, but God is not afraid of scientists, he made them! Show us something!
You ask me how does Jesus prove himself to me. I ask you how does he prove himself to YOU? There have been thousands of people who claim to be the next Messiah after Jesus. Yet you ignore the rest of them as occultists or mad men.
WHY? -
falling is a miracle? lol. then why go to a church to see miracle? we can always see it at basketball courts. anw does god play basketball?Originally posted by davidche:TS: you want evidence.....
''show me heaven''
God tells you this place where you call 'earth' is heaven.
''show me something magical(miracle)''
Apple falling down from the tree is magic, which is called gravity by us.
Now do you believe in God? You wont!
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What i am trying to tell you here is you are stupid to ask for these demands, as truth cannot be bound by evidences. And you, are looking for evidence, which isnt feasible as demonstrated above. What consists an evidence? your eye may decieve you, what if this were all illusion??
Thus, evidence isnt the way to truth. -
You say that God tells you that "earth" is heaven. Do you even have Bible verses to back up your claim, or did you just bear false witness?Originally posted by davidche:TS: you want evidence.....
''show me heaven''
God tells you this place where you call 'earth' is heaven.
''show me something magical(miracle)''
Apple falling down from the tree is magic, which is called gravity by us.
Now do you believe in God? You wont!
======
What i am trying to tell you here is you are stupid to ask for these demands, as truth cannot be bound by evidences. And you, are looking for evidence, which isnt feasible as demonstrated above. What consists an evidence? your eye may decieve you, what if this were all illusion??
Thus, evidence isnt the way to truth.
You say that I am stupid to believe that evidence is the way to the truth. Which is a better way? Your personal revelation? Why should I believe you simply because you say you are inspired by God? Anyone can say that, and they have done so throughout history. -
if u have experienced god before, then it's not called faith. faith is believing in something that is not real or cannot be proven to be real. since u have 'seen" him(or she), it should be called trust.Originally posted by davidche:I have expericienced God before.
The power of faith works in all of us! How you stand in a building without worrying it may collapse.You believe that it wouldnt. -
If the power of faith compels you, why won't you jump out of a building if you have a lot of faith? God made the building, God made gravity, he sure can bend the rules.Originally posted by davidche:I have expericienced God before.
The power of faith works in all of us! How you stand in a building without worrying it may collapse.You believe that it wouldnt.
But he doesn't. Never has.
WHY?