is spending money on university degree worth it?
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Getting a key to a door is better than pushing against a door without a key which have many others behind the door.
The Key Moral of the story is , Get the Key , the rest is effort. This world is Competitive , we already have many other FT who spent no effort purchasing paper qualifications.
There are many other countries with doors worth opening. -
Taking a subsidized tertiary education course for example:
1. A 2nd lower bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering (average).
vs
2. A Diploma in mechanical engineering
I used my company as an example:
Diploma one is 1.8k to 2.1k average: 1.9k
Degree holder: average 2.75k
Difference is $850 per month
University fees: 5-6k per year; 20 to 25k for full honors 4 year course (22.5k average)
22.5k/(0.85) = 26 months or roughly more than 2 years
Basically you need to work 2 years to break even if you get a degree.
Of course this does not include the experience, an education, blah blah stuff that you cannot quantify.
And of course theres a high chance the diploma grad is more competent than you at work and faster pay rise.
It all depends on individual -
people who cannot make it to university are less smarter and has less resources in life. therefore, in the long run, they are likely to earn less than university degree holders even if the degree holders have to pay high cost during their education.
but this is obvious a unfair comparison because when you put a normal person(with dipolma or lower) in general and a smarter, has more resources, richer person (with degree ) and ask which one of them will be richer in 15 years time.
of course, despite the 30 000 dollars uni fees, the uni student will still end up richer in the end. But that is simply because he has more resouces, and is smarter in the first place.
the common misconception that people has is this. They look at statistics at see that university people has more money in the run long. therefore their conclusion is
getting a degree is a better choice
it is not the degree that make u more successful, it is university students have more resources and better initial conditions, better environment than diploma and lower people that makes them earn more money in the long run.
a diploma holder or any non degree skilled worker who has the right attitude, the habit of learning and improving himself regularly, put himself in the right environment, stay away from people who are bad influences is actually better off by saving the 35 000 dollars.
btw, i am a university student. -
so perhaps in the end, it's not the paper that you get, but your innate IQ, then ? .... -
ah, for engineers, I believe certification is more important, especially in the IT field. CCNP and stuff like that..Originally posted by Gordonator:no offences to undergraduates. a degree might be important if u are into bussiness or management related jobs but for engineering it's a totally different story.
engineering requires experiences. imagine this, two 20 years old after NS, 1 started working as a engineer and the other goes into university.
4 years later, the 2nd guy finally graduated. but the 1st guy will already has 4 years of working and engineering experiences while the 2nd guy is only a noob with no working experiences and only textbook knowledge of what he learnt in university.
from my experiences, employers/customers/clients' expectations for a good engineer is that they don't care whether u are a degree holder or O level, as long as u can set up/troubleshoot and maintain the system, u are the person they want. -
to be truly called an engineer, you'd have to be certified by the local professional engineers' board, it's like the bar for lawyers ... only after that can you append P.Eng to your name ...
and to be certifiable, you'd have to have at least a degree ...
it's pretty lax in asia, but in north america, there are lawsuits floating around over who can be called an "engineer" ...
an example, there's one going through the courts in canada right now over who can be called a "software engineer" ... -
majority of all the senior engineers over at my place don't have a degree, not even a diploma. but they are masters at what they do.Originally posted by LazerLordz:ah, for engineers, I believe certification is more important, especially in the IT field. CCNP and stuff like that..
in engineering, they are many many things that textbooks can't teach. there are many ways to get the system up and running, many ways to troubleshoot, which are something that textbooks can't teach.
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well ... I think from the point of employers, it's a good idea to hire those people, you can pay them less at a start and increase from that bracket, they are less likely to job-hop than grads, cos they'll be worried about job security and starting from scratch somewhere else ... they'll likely become life long, loyal employees ...Originally posted by Gordonator:majority of all the senior engineers over at my place don't have a degree, not even a diploma. but they are masters at what they do.
in engineering, they are many many things that textbooks can't teach. there are many ways to get the system up and running, many ways to troubleshoot, which are something that textbooks can't teach.
but what about from a personal point of view ? ... you'll be more scared to job-hop, even when conditions become unbearable, eh ? would anyone want to chabot from a job if he's worked his way up from 1.8 to 5, 6K a month ? ... when it's an employer's market out ? ... when cheap foreign talents are flooding in ? ...
so the more paper you have, the more bargaining power, the more control you have over your own destiny methinks ... -
Again it depends on the company's hiring practices and which field of engineering.Originally posted by Gordonator:no offences to undergraduates. a degree might be important if u are into bussiness or management related jobs but for engineering it's a totally different story.
engineering requires experiences. imagine this, two 20 years old after NS, 1 started working as a engineer and the other goes into university.
4 years later, the 2nd guy finally graduated. but the 1st guy will already has 4 years of working and engineering experiences while the 2nd guy is only a noob with no working experiences and only textbook knowledge of what he learnt in university.
from my experiences, employers/customers/clients' expectations for a good engineer is that they don't care whether u are a degree holder or O level, as long as u can set up/troubleshoot and maintain the system, u are the person they want.
The company that I work for are less stringent on what type of degree you have but the bottom line it must be a recognized bachelor's degree.
Other engineering field such as chemical engineering or pharmaceuticals production requires a good bachelor's degree in that field. One company whose name i will not admit literally ask interns to tear up resumes sent by non-degree or lousy honors students
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My target is to get the PEB chop with my name and designated number within 7 years of now.Originally posted by LazerLordz:ah, for engineers, I believe certification is more important, especially in the IT field. CCNP and stuff like that.. -
And if the same chaps get a degree, isn't it even better? Not only do they have the innate practical skills they already possess, they also have a better passport to places they wish to go.Originally posted by Gordonator:majority of all the senior engineers over at my place don't have a degree, not even a diploma. but they are masters at what they do.
in engineering, they are many many things that textbooks can't teach. there are many ways to get the system up and running, many ways to troubleshoot, which are something that textbooks can't teach.
Anyway which field of engineering are you currently in Gordon? -
IQ plus EQ plus connections and alot of luck. Yes luck plays an important part believe it or notOriginally posted by Fatum:so perhaps in the end, it's not the paper that you get, but your innate IQ, then ? .... -
Originally posted by january:
I do agree with your views on this. I do have friends that have degrees and diplomas and ITCs. The one having the degree is earning less than the dip holders. and that is over a period of 6 yrs.
people who cannot make it to university are less smarter and has less resources in life. therefore, in the long run, they are likely to earn less than university degree holders even if the degree holders have to pay high cost during their education.
but this is obvious a unfair comparison because when you put a normal person(with dipolma or lower) in general and a smarter, has more resources, richer person (with degree ) and ask which one of them will be richer in 15 years time.
of course, despite the 30 000 dollars uni fees, the uni student will still end up richer in the end. But that is simply because he has more resouces, and is smarter in the first place.
the common misconception that people has is this. They look at statistics at see that university people has more money in the run long. therefore their conclusion is
[b]getting a degree is a better choice
it is not the degree that make u more successful, it is university students have more resources and better initial conditions, better environment than diploma and lower people that makes them earn more money in the long run.
a diploma holder or any non degree skilled worker who has the right attitude, the habit of learning and improving himself regularly, put himself in the right environment, stay away from people who are bad influences is actually better off by saving the 35 000 dollars.
btw, i am a university student.[/b]
Friend A(degree),working 3 yrs gross out @ 2.5k as engineer. Friend B(dip) is grossing out @ 3.3k as engineer as well. he is just into his 2yr actually. furthermore, B just started working a yr later since A got a job.
Uni students have textbk knowledge but lack hands on experience compared to those of lower qualifications. generally nowadays, ITC students are slowly overtaking dip holders for higher pay. Me, dip holder for example was quoted 1.5k starting salary while the other guy holding as ITC got 1.7k. i was waiting for my turn as the ITC went in 1st.. overheard the interviewer splash the cash actually.
you can't generalise that uni students hold a better life eventually, because the statistics are being too selective. they left majorities and only take the median minorities. the fact to the matter is, it is all to wayang. so that the general public including foreigners have the 'good' picture in our education system. what they don't know is that certs with a lot of practical experience are becoming an increasing trend in the salary market. this is what is happening to the job industry here.
yes i do agree that a person has every right to improve himself, but one has to look into his own job industry whether a degree is required to progress in the working ladder. however one should not overlook @ smaller courses like WSQ, Fire Safety Officer or first aid certs. these small certs may increase your pay as well. for me, i call this certs, booster certs. they help boost up ur credentials.
in all, a degree is just as useless if the person is not productive or lazy simply said. experience, hard work and creativity are 3 main attributes that can help one to become succesful in life. -
Ooo... I amused by the way how some university students comment in this thread...
Some are not even in the job market and seen little of the real world...
how should I put it?? Many of those higher educated people's income are accurate... those who are not so educated and are resourceful people's income are not so accurate... Go Figure~!!
I STRONGLY disagree tat those who did not make it to the U are less resourceful... anyway... In today's "market", it's not the child whom u determine to be "resourceful"... It's the parents~!! The tools and the environment elite parents gave to elite children... Unfair advantage~~
If u come frm poor family... and u happens to take Learning seriously Much Later than others... maybe at the age of 17... after PSLE and O levels which U din take seriously oso... But tat does not make u smarter or more resourceful....
I've seen many did well after tat age frm poor families... but wif their positive attitude and determination... Many Uni Graduates are NO where Better than them in Life today~! -
Okie~~~ Back to the Topic...
It depends...
if U wanna study juz becoz U wanna work... Then U hv to see wat u'll be yielding after u gradutate....
if U study... Becoz U hv a hunger for knowledge... U hv a passion for wat u're learning ,... and u hope to apply those knowledge to the organisations u're working for... Or U use the knowledge to produce products/services to add value to people's Life... I guess... It's WORTH it.... -
not everyone have the money to persuade a degree. my seniors worked their way up through hard work and experiences.Originally posted by DriftingGuy:And if the same chaps get a degree, isn't it even better? Not only do they have the innate practical skills they already possess, they also have a better passport to places they wish to go.
Anyway which field of engineering are you currently in Gordon?
what i'm trying to bring across is that doesn't mean one don't have a degree, as u said above, means not having a better passport to places they wish to go. from personal experiences as i already mentioned earlier, employers and clients don't care u have a degree or O level, or PSLE, as long as you can troubleshoot the system, u are a good engineer.
i'm in telecom engineering. -
why dont you try self studying Engineering
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what does "Troubleshoot a system" involve? what if the job requires sophisticated maths or other scientific knowledge.Originally posted by Gordonator:not everyone have the money to persuade a degree. my seniors worked their way up through hard work and experiences.
what i'm trying to bring across is that doesn't mean one don't have a degree, as u said above, means not having a better passport to places they wish to go. from personal experiences as i already mentioned earlier, employers and clients don't care u have a degree or O level, or PSLE, as long as you can troubleshoot the system, u are a good engineer.
i'm in telecom engineering. -
of course getting a degree is worth it
paper qualifications still rules
look at the jobs on ST Recruitment, the better jobs like managerial post all nid deg+exp -
humm..also..different profession require different standard of education..an easy example would b that doctors would need to b a grad student of medicine in a U..of cos there are others..therefore its not always worth it or not..rather..its necessary or not...
p.s i skipped most of the replies any repeated points is regretted -
okie ... reading through the whole thread again I sense that it's drifting towards elitism ....
so I guess I'll have to qualify myself better ...
yes of course, not everyone has the wherewithal to go to univerisity, circumstances play a big role, I knew of poly classmates with straight A's who didn't go onto NUS or NTU simply cos the families couldn't afford it (now that gets me hot, but I guess that's speaker's corner fodder ).... but as long as a chap is hardworking and enterprising, he still can make his mark in life ... it's no incident I think that many captains of industry are non-grads, some barely schooled ....
But then again, paper qualifications are a good form of insurance methinks, and offers one that little bit more independence in his career, a person without the paper qualifications in a certain position, would find it hard to find an equivalent position should he get axed or had to change jobs eh .... life long learning is not a catch-phrase ... it's a truism in today's economy ... even hokkien-peng bosses have to learn on the fly all the time ...
if one has the chance to upgrade himself, but instead chooses to scratch his own balls with tales of dropout millionaires, then I think he's deluding himself .... -
no money, no honey!
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for your information, at least in my field of engineering, one is required to know call-centre operation which involves programming of automatic calls distribution, call flows, calls vectoring, generating of call data collection (CMS) reports, trunks configurations, interactive voice response (IVR) programming, logger recording and hardware, system infrastructure maintenance etc.Originally posted by the.owl:what does "Troubleshoot a system" involve? what if the job requires sophisticated maths or other scientific knowledge.
these are not rocket science i assure you. these are all product/system knowledge. clients wants people who are good in product knowledge, people who know how to physically troubleshoot the system. and not just paper knowledge about how the system will and should work. -
why not? it can be done. what make u think it cannot be done?Originally posted by the.owl:why dont you try self studying Engineering
all my seniors more or less self taught themselves through experiences.
don't rely too much on qualifications. -
dun mean to be offensive... u can be self-taught... those are for repetitive work... if u need to innovate, u need to hv a v thorough understanding in order to hv a breakthrough...Originally posted by Gordonator:why not? it can be done. what make u think it cannot be done?
all my seniors self taught more or less self taught themselves through experiences.
don't reply too much on qualifications.
qualification here creates the base for innovation... of coz success comes wif experiences too~