In memory of Shanmugam Murugesu
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No. We already have court shopping because some judges are known to be softer in their sentences than others. It will not be good for some to escape the death penalty and some hang just because the judge is softer on crime. The job of the judiciary should be limited to finding guilt in accordance to the law. For serious crimes, society decide what should be a minimum sentence. For serious crimes such as murder and drug trafficking, I say keep the mandatory death sentences.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I still call for an end to mandatory death penalty in Singapore.
It reduces the power of the courts to decide on a person's fate, and hands that decision to Parliament, who can and must not play the role of a judiciary by association. -
drugs are very evil.
if u watch Protege, u will know.
i duno the story, but he should know the consequences.
1.05kg is a lot.
if he can escape from this, then there will be more ple smuggling drugs here. -
And you can keep your comments to yourself. I will accept criticisms from the Pope and the Dalai Lama, not from hypocrites who have slaughtered thousands of innoncents, first by supporting Sadam and then waging a war against him. Your government has been directly responsible for killing thousands of Vietnamese and poisoning their descendants with carcinogens and collaborating with Israel to displace millions of Palestinian refugees, now still living in refugee camps all over the Middle East.Originally posted by coffeegirl:I do not object if you want to criticize the USA. I think many people are interested in what you say. It is with that understanding that I offer my comments on Singapore's actions in this completely unwarranted killing.
Have you heard the cries and pleas of the thousands of innocent children whose lives have been wrecked by you lot? And you have the cheek to criticize us for hanging a drug pusher?
No wonder Americans are so hated around the world. I object to terrorist actions all over the world, but when they target Americans, I can't help but not be surprised. -
Of course,IMO i would be proud to see the wretched flag here being replaced by the American flag.Originally posted by coffeegirl:I do not object if you want to criticize the USA. I think many people are interested in what you say. It is with that understanding that I offer my comments on Singapore's actions in this completely unwarranted killing. -
what is the purpose of the death penalty actually?
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Lol.....can u pls dont talk in a riddle/ roundabout way? Just say what ur points are....Originally posted by BadzMaro:I just want to make a note , that alot of these policies that dictates our minds are because of politicians , some with thier own agenda. N thus bringing forward and imposing thier laws and regulations worldwide.
Both sides have thier reasons b beliefs, but maybe we should all look deeper as to WHY these laws were implemented , who and soon u will see the strings slowly connecting the littles pieces. With the internet nowadays , like i said , the information highway , by doing some research yourselves , you will see as to why. By knowing history will u truly know the cause and effect of the decisions made today.
With regards to alcohol and tobacco....well, I think each subtance is different...thats why, even for different drugs, there are different classifications, correct? Even for medication pills, there are classifications, correct?
We cannot say....how about alcohol and tobacco.......and use it as an argument for the other different classes...such as marijuana....I think that is wrong logic....
Personally....I think tobacco should be banned in this world...alcohol could possibly be tolerated in moderation, but again, these are perhaps a separate topic for discussion, and.......it's not really related to marijuana trafficking......because they are different classes of substance....
With regards to marijuana in USA....pls, I think the TS is putting a simplified picture....I believe USA is also socially pretty divided on this issue....and as she mentioned....it's somewhat legalized for medication....well, in that case, that means it's not really legalized for casual usage, and certainly not for trading or trafficking, is it not correct, TS? Coffiegirl? Yes or no?
I mean, if we're talking about medication usage....even morphein also can be used in medicine as pain-killers, correct? But morphein is not legalized for casual usage and trade/ trafficking also?
I believe......only very few societies in this world...legalize a limited form of drug usage, very few, and with limitations. For instance Netherlands. It shows that a vast majority of humanity in this world have found that drugs have more damage than good to the society, and decided to curtail, suppress, and rid of it.
There is only variations in the manner. For instance some societies would think.....1kg of subtance A is lethal.....another think....2kg is lethal....one would think death penalty...another would think....20 years of prison.....this is normal and it happens in ALL sorts of laws in this world....no society is the same.....You will find the penalty for murder is different from country to country.....The penalty for robbery is different from country to country.....ALL kinds of laws...
These laws... are expression and manifestation... of their societal and cultural views,....and of the environment or condition they are in...
Therefore u cannot expect....one unique societal values....expressed in its laws......being changed....or just accept or follow the views of another country, especially on a major social issue such as drugs.
Meat Pao. -
If I may discuss about another point... about death penalty....some people, including some posters here, are against death penalty...
I would just say...
When the human rights of many people, are pit against the human rights of 1 person, ....which one would u choose?
I think this is precisely......the case of death penalty.
Sorry.. we are living in an imperfect world.....in an ideal world, we need not have police at all, there would be no crimes at all, and everyone would live happily and harmoniously.....there would be no need for death penalty....maybe this condition still exist in some places, like some tribes in Pacific....but here in major urban centres....no.
I believe death penalty should exist for the severest act of crimes which jeopardize the basic human rights of many other people, such as.....drug trafficking, terrorism, betrayal in wartime, and other serious crimes.
I mean just take a look at the drug trafficking law here in Singapore. If u use drug for urself, u dont get death penalty........if u trade/ traffic drugs to other people, then u get death penalty.....to me, this is an accurate and philosophically correct application....of the principle.....that the basic human rights of many other people....be held above....the human rights of 1 person....
If you use drugs for urself, u get only jail sentence and maybe rehab. So the law is taking a more sympathetic view. But once a person distribute/ sell to other people, then he is not a victim himself, but a victimizer, and he is jeopardizing the basic human rights of many other people. So to me, the distiction between a user and a trafficker, and the application of death penalty only for traffickers, is very correct, and it's philosophically and strategically, at its very roots, the right thing to do. It is not wrong at all.
Meat Pao. -
In sinkapore, the number of those arrested for drug trafficking and sentenced to death is not uncommon. This country is well known for having harsh law concerning possession and trafficking drugs.Originally posted by coffeegirl:As an American citizen, I was shocked to find out that a man was murdered by Singapore for having marijuana.
It is well known in the USA that this is a natural, non-addicting and very popular smokable plant. Many states have already legalized it for medicine, and much more is to come.
This is a bloodstain on Singapore, probably based on ignorance. Note we are not discussing opium here! I am sure many of you drink beer and wine but think nothing about doing that.
It also seems that the fact that two young children begged for their father's life meant nothing to Singapore. This a horror on top of a horror.
Fortunately, Mr. Murugesu and Singapore's horrific killing live on in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanmugam_Murugesu
Shamugam Murgugesu must have known the great risks and the danger he was facing - still he took the chance.
If Shamugam was not caught & sentenced to death, many more innoncent lives would have been ruined and shattered by the poisons he carried with him. What conscience do you have in speaking out for him?
As an American, you should take a look at your own backyard and the shameful state of those whose lives turned topsy turvy with the consumption of marijuana.
As an American, you ought to know that sinkapore is not part of America. That if you choose to come here, you must learn to obey the local laws; otherwise don't come here at all.
If you wish to remember him well and worship him as your hero, why not do what he did. Are you prepared to put your life on the line.
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I think this is correct, most of the current activity is aimed at medical legalization. However, it's obvious these patients did not get their first smokes from the government. Consequently they got them from regular users. This indicates that the medical push is just the surface.Originally posted by Meat Pao:With regards to marijuana in USA....pls, I think the TS is putting a simplified picture....I believe USA is also socially pretty divided on this issue....and as she mentioned....it's somewhat legalized for medication....well, in that case, that means it's not really legalized for casual usage, and certainly not for trading or trafficking, is it not correct, TS? Coffiegirl? Yes or no?
Meat Pao.
I see you all have a strong interest in the law. This site is an organization of numerous American law enforcement officers who disagree:
http://www.leap.cc/
These are just further reasons why the hanging was an atrocious act. -
OMG !! ALL I WROTE IS GONE !!!
FFS.. cant be damned writing it again..
stupid login...
thats why its not that i want to beat around the bush.. its gonna take hundreds n thousands of words to summarise down to what i want to say... to explain in detail.. the reaons,
n the amount of time to write all the replies logged me off SGforums n now its all GONE!
anyways.. -
Well that is interesting....Originally posted by coffeegirl:I think this is correct, most of the current activity is aimed at medical legalization. However, it's obvious these patients did not get their first smokes from the government. Consequently they got them from regular users. This indicates that the medical push is just the surface.
I see you all have a strong interest in the law. This site is an organization of numerous American law enforcement officers who disagree:
http://www.leap.cc/
These are just further reasons why the hanging was an atrocious act.
It means that the laws in ur country....the expression and manifestation of the values of the society you live in....also prohibit marijuana....ur society also hold the view....that basically marijuana is bad....so as I said, its not as simple as u painted in your first post.
So perhaps some of the succeeding posts.....talking about USA....Asia...should not even come into the picture....I think the issue has become widened...some people even talk about USA foreign policy...because it appeared as if it's a collective challange from the American people.....while in reality your view does not represent the overall views of America........as proven by its existing laws, is it not correct?
So perhaps.....we should do away with USA/ Asia/ Foreign policy thing....or politics etc etc......I think we just talk about the basic thing......about our understanding...what is exactly the basic understanding....of why...drug traffickers are given out harsh punishment...the harshest of all.....it's because...his act is jeopardizing the basic human rights of many other people....
And I think this is where we might disagree....perhaps many people like u would agree with giving out the harshest punishment for people who commit terrorism.....but not with distributing drugs......and this is the point I dont understand......act of terrorism is clearly a danger to many other people....and a severe threat to their basic human rights, AS, the act of trafficking of drugs...
Meat Pao. -
If thats the case...
Maybe we should ask ourselves , why something that is not supposed to be illegal in the first place becomes illegal.
I am not a supporter of the Death Penalty or against it. -
This is singapore dude. Its our law.
Though sometimes i agree tt our law is dead. it does not feel for the ppl. -
What thing?Originally posted by BadzMaro:If thats the case...
Maybe we should ask ourselves , why something that is not supposed to be illegal in the first place becomes illegal.
I am not a supporter of the Death Penalty or against it.
About the marijuana...?
Why u keep saying its not supposed to be illegal?
I think....there are different classes of substance.....
I think marijuana is classified in narcotics....I dont know exactly, I mean, I think under narcotics, there is such a thing called Narcotics class A, maybe Narcotics class B, and so on..
Even for medication pills.....there are generic pills....there are prescription-only pills....and there are many different classifications...each with different rules and requirements.....the higher the harder and stricter.
So.....these are just different substances......'why' marijuana is classified differently with tobacco and alcohol, why is it in Narcotics, why is it oulawed throughout the world, I believe the experts in the world know how to classify them, and I really dont understand why some people keep comparing them with totally different substance such as tobacco and alcohol, while even for a layman like me, its obvious they are different.....
Meat Pao. -
---Edit---double post---
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Yup , it was classified after it was illegal. It has different classes. Depending on how the country views it seriousness. For isntance , taiwan its Class B while E and K is Class C , because of rampant usages n the inability of the law to fully prosecute n rehabilitate everyone n the costs of all the proceedings.Originally posted by Meat Pao:What thing?
About the marijuana...?
Why u keep saying its not supposed to be illegal?
I think....there are different classes of substance.....
I think marijuana is classified in narcotics....I dont know exactly, I mean, I think under narcotics, there is such a thing called Narcotics class A, maybe Narcotics class B, and so on..
Even for medication pills.....there are generic pills....there are prescription-only pills....and there are many different classifications...each with different rules and requirements....the higher the harder and stricter.
So.....these are just different substances......'why' marijuana is classified differently with tobacco and alcohol, why is it in Narcotics, why is it oulawed throughout the world, I believe the experts in the world know how to classify them, and I really dont understand why some people keep comparing them with totally different substance such as tobacco and alcohol, while for a layman like me, its obvious they are different.....
Meat Pao.
Alchohol is a form of drug too. So is cigarettes. They are both addictive and almost have NO positive health benefits. Thast why i say do some research n
For instances , alchohol during the early 1900's was banned n illegal in the states. It was classified as a drug too.It was then proven that is harmful.But because of the losing war against illegal bootlegging and organised crimes profitting from the illegal alchohol that they decided to legalise it to stop the flow and once again politicians were involved in banning it and some have thier own agenda's in legalising it. Thats why i stress again that the understanding of the history of these drugs and the history of the laws and policies made by the countries and especially by politicians who may or may not have interests in them and the agenda's with it.
In order to explain why hemp, the most useful plant known to mankind, became illegal, we have to understand the reasons why marijuana, the drug, became illegal. In fact, it helps to go way back to the beginning of the century and talk about two other drugs, opium (the grandfather of heroin) and cocaine.
We all know that Cocaine is harmful , and has not benefits to our health or whatsoever , K , E , Ice has been proven to be drugs that are harmful to the body and consumed , permanent damages to it. But why do we see that fight for the legalisationg of Marijuana so strong ? We dont see ppl fighting to legalise coke , K , E or Ice or Speed or wahtever kind of drugs. because it is proven that its BAD.. Why do we still smoke cigarettes knowing we will die from cancer , bad for health , harms others. Why is it not illegal ? Besides to destress , weed can destress u too! The question then remains to why countries arent able to ban it. Some countries requiring migrant labour force for thier contructions for instances , those lowly paid workers only form of destress is cigarettes. By banning them , u will have NO workers , hell they wouldnt even wanna come to work and not to mention they are already addicted. Sometimes it is just too late to ban it as the cost of rehabilitation and the entire structure of the system will collapse as ppl are already addicted. Why is it in some countries they consider Tobacco and Alchohol as Sin Tax ?
thats why we need to dwell deeper to why its illegal instead of crying out why the death penalty taking ones life , or supporting the idea of taking ones life.
Even if Marijuana is legalised, u may think that it will increase smuggling n criminal organisations will profit ? Well , why buy it when i grow it. N its free!I The thing why stuffs are illegal sometimes is also because we are not able to control ourselves , we are not able to moderate ourselves and we abuse. Thats why there is no true democracy , only a benevolent despotism.
Anyways these are just a fraction of the points i am trying to explain , thats why i said more research is needed to explain and understanding these facts.And why i talked in 'riddles' .. i just hope that some are able to understand what i am trying to convey and not forcefully imposing my ideas on them.
Why are things illegal ?
quote 'The official answer: Because you shouldn't use it.You can't use it because it is illegal, and it is illegal so you can't use it. You should not use it. It is illegal.It is illegal so you should not use it.
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Wrong.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:No. We already have court shopping because some judges are known to be softer in their sentences than others. It will not be good for some to escape the death penalty and some hang just because the judge is softer on crime. The job of the judiciary should be limited to finding guilt in accordance to the law. For serious crimes, society decide what should be a minimum sentence. For serious crimes such as murder and drug trafficking, I say keep the mandatory death sentences.
The job of the judiciary is to decide the punishment fit for a crime. That's what they are trained to do. I am not going to support legislators and community leaders untrained in jurisprudence to decide on a sentencing policy. It is inherently unjust.
Justice has to be done, and seen to be done by the courts. Anything else, we will be heading down a slippery slope. -
Do not ever tar people with a brush as large as yours. Would you like someone to say that all Singaporeans are arms smugglers just because three of them were sentenced in America for gun-running to Indonesia and the Middle East?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:And you can keep your comments to yourself. I will accept criticisms from the Pope and the Dalai Lama, not from hypocrites who have slaughtered thousands of innoncents, first by supporting Sadam and then waging a war against him. Your government has been directly responsible for killing thousands of Vietnamese and poisoning their descendants with carcinogens and collaborating with Israel to displace millions of Palestinian refugees, now still living in refugee camps all over the Middle East.
Have you heard the cries and pleas of the thousands of innocent children whose lives have been wrecked by you lot? And you have the cheek to criticize us for hanging a drug pusher?
No wonder Americans are so hated around the world. I object to terrorist actions all over the world, but when they target Americans, I can't help but not be surprised. -
Let me ask everyone to reflect on this.
"Is it wrong for a Singaporean to support the other team? Why must an individual keep him/herself within the discourse of the "supposed" majority?
Similarly.
What would you say to a Singaporean who wants to legalise marijuana? Or an American who wants to institute mandatory death penalty for drug trafficking?
Something for everyone to consider, before trying to say that if you are a Singaporean, you must support the majority opinion all the time, and if you don't, you are no better than a nation that wages war for supremacy and unparalleled control of the world.
What if someone says that Singapore should adopt the doctrine of Manifest Destiny and attempt to influence and control the world, be it through seen or unseen means, in every corridor of power or stock exchange around the world? -
In any case BadzMaro, your argument, from what I had read so far, would be more to why alcohol and cigarettes are not illegal? That would be a different argument in this case. Alcohol and smoking issue would be a different issue. You would agree all these including marijuana is bad. But like I had made my point, just because alcohol and smoking is not illegal, it does not justify the fact that marijuana should be approved upon by the society and the law. If anything is to be argued here, it should be regarding the laws on alcohol and smoking. Its 2 different arguments here, from what I had read so far. Correct me if I'm wrong. I welcome friendly criticisms.
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Hello Lazerlords.....
I dont understand ur point about the legislature and the judiciary...
All laws are made by the legislature....all sentencing are carried out by the courts.....the judiciary....correct? In most countries in the world, this is how the system works, correct?
So... , what is the difference with this law? With the death penalty?
If the legislative body drafted and passed a law.....and then it become a law......and the judiciary act on it.....what is wrong with that?
The legislature is overstepping its boundary? It would create unjustice? Why would u say that?
I think the parliament would really overstep its boundary, if, one day an MP sit on a judge's chair, and then deliver a verdict. That would clearly be fitting the scenario and the image that u paint.
But, if an MP pass a draft, in the parliament, if the parliament make a new law, and then a real judge sitting on a judge chair deliver a verdict, in accordance with that law, there is nothing wrong at all.
Judges dont make laws.....it is the legislators....and legislators dont deliver verdicts....it is the judges.....it has never been confused, and there is no issue here at all.
It's not the death penalty only...many other laws are also made by legislators, and they stipulate the minimum and maximum punishment, and then the judges, they in court, will try to find, whether a person is guilty or not, should be freed or not, or if guilty, what is the suitable punishment in accordance with the law passed by the legislature.
There is no issue here at all.
Meat Pao. -
Alcohol and cigarettes are not banned simply because they have been too deeply entrenched in people's lifestyles. Case it point was the 'prohibition' fiasco back in the 30's. Marijuana, on the other hand, was and still is, exclusive to fringe elements of society in most parts of the world; banning it can also be viewed as a way to prevent it from becoming a mainstream problem.Originally posted by dinky1409:In any case BadzMaro, your argument, from what I had read so far, would be more to why alcohol and cigarettes are not illegal? That would be a different argument in this case. Alcohol and smoking issue would be a different issue. You would agree all these including marijuana is bad. But like I had made my point, just because alcohol and smoking is not illegal, it does not justify the fact that marijuana should be approved upon by the society and the law. If anything is to be argued here, it should be regarding the laws on alcohol and smoking. Its 2 different arguments here, from what I had read so far. Correct me if I'm wrong. I welcome friendly criticisms.
Another possible reason for grouping marijuana with other hard drugs is that of the source. The draconian laws are aimed at preventing drug cartels and their middlemen from getting a foothold and turning Singapore into a transit hub for international narcotics; this is a problem much different from USA, which is more of a destination for drugs. I would venture a guess that Marijuana trafficking is done by the same groups or affiliations responsible for heroin and other nasties, and therefore the laws enforced are the same. They are targetting traffickers, not the drugs itself.
I see such harsh laws as a result, albeit indirectly, of Singapore's mainly Chinese populace. Legalism, whereby penalties are disproportionately greater than the actual 'crime' has always been acceptable if they are deemed to be for the greater good. -
There was another indian guy sentenced to hang some yr ago. The trial was full of question marks and unjust. Yet, when his lawyer ask the judge:if a man is innocent, will he still be hung just for procedure purposes??
The judge:Yes.
Read the local book:Hung at Dawn ..written by the above lawyer
**The lawyer M Ravi is the lawyer also for Shanmugam Murugesu.
The book talks about the 3 cases, Vignes Mourthi (above case,shanmugan and Ngyuen Van Tuong. -
Now THAT, if true, is an atrocious act. TS should have picked on that case instead... but i shall reserve my own judgement until i know the facts.Originally posted by snobbish:There was another indian guy sentenced to hang some yr ago. The trial was full of question marks and unjust. Yet, when his lawyer ask the judge:if a man is innocent, will he still be hung just for procedure purposes??
The judge:Yes.
Read the local book:Hung at Dawn ..written by the above lawyer -
This kinda thing is hard to say......those judges, they have their own understanding of what law is...
For instance, many judges...many laws...in the world....are not retroactive....because they dont want to threaten the legal certainty.....
For laymen like us....it can be hard to understand....how can some people commit crimes, but, let's say it was 10 years ago and at that time there was no specific law which covered it, but now there is.......how can that criminal now be let go....where is the justice in it...?
But many judges will say.....yes...cannot....cannot retroactive...
So....it's hard for us laymen to say.....how can that judge say 'Hang for procedure' ......seem so cold.....but what is exactly the reasoning and the background for that? That's what we need to know before we jump to conclusions....
Meat Pao.