Beware of the Glorification/Mis-representation of Job titles
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Are you in a Job Search? Beware of the Glorification/Mis-representation of Job titles
Dear all, I can be considered a fresh graduate considering that I graduated in April 2007. Subsequently, I worked in this MNC research house for 3 months but then decided that the culture and workload didnÂ’t suit me. I have yet to tender my resignation, but I am actively on a job hunt now.I discovered some innate truths which I would like to share with current fresh graduates who are also in their job search.
1) I am disturbed by the usage of titles such as “Management Associate”, “Management Trainee” or “Management Assistant”. Such programs usually stipulate that it’s a 2 years program; you will be rotated to different business functions within the company, learn stuff and eventually be posted to fixed position in the company at the end of the program. However, be careful in applying to such positions. There are scrupulous companies who hire graduates in such titles, simply to exploit you and get themselves a cheap temporary labor. Usually, a good gauge is to look at the pay they are paying you. For instance, I applied to this XXX Airline Management Trainee program. There were 3 rounds and I got through to the 2nd round. In the 2nd round, I told the interviewers that my expected salary is $2.5K. And subsequently, I was rejected. I called up my University’s career office and asked then to find out from the Airline why I was rejected. Hmm, indeed, in the end, the Airline said that they were only prepared to pay S$2.1K. This sum, is simply too little and reflects the Airline’s intention to hire cheap labor yeah?
2)I am also disturbed by the glorification of job titles. I applied to one of our local banks, the position for “Branch relationship Manager, Consumer Banking Group”. In the job advertisement, the job scope description was insightful; it talked about nurturing relationship with your customers’, understanding their needs, and then recommend the various innovative financial instruments and also provide in-depth financial expertise to help our clients. When I entered the interview, I had a rude shock. The interviewer said, “Look in essence, this is just an insurance agent job, period. There is no such thing as being based in a branch. This is a mobile job. Can you do it? Yes or No?” I retorted and said the advertisement states it is a branch relationship manager, meaning I will have a desk, serve walk in customers etc etc. The interviewer’s reply was, “Sure, it is just a fancy name. I can also call it personal banker, or privilege banker, or ultra supreme banker; but the job scope is still the same; sell insurance”. I was thinking how serious can this misrepresentation be!?!?!?! I guess, on one hand, I am glad the interviewers are candid and upfront; in fact, I left moments after this question was asked. On the other hand, I am a little pissed that I made a wasted trip to this bank due to a misrepresented job advertisement.
3)Lastly, you know the thing about all these online Job search websites such as jobscentral.com, or jobsdB.com or jobstreet.com etc. I am especially skeptical about certain dubious postings which gave really generous job description, but they merely state apply to “The advertiser”. My concern is that, some graduates may actually apply by sending in their resume and cover letters. But little do they know that their resume could be harvested and resold online by just changing the name on the resume. You will never know.
4)I also replied to a job interview call from Jobscentral.com. The company had a name and a legitimate website. It looked really impressive especially when the website says we are located in Tanjong Pagar area. I know a lot of big office buildings are in this area. So the day before the actual interview, I decided to do a little recon and checked out the office address. To my shock, this so called, “MEGA-reputable” company is merely located in a small shophouse (2nd storey), and worst of all, it is beside this sleazy massage shop house where loads of PRC and Thai prostitutes walk in and out. This company looked really dubious, and if it were reputable, I do not know how the female staff can put up with that location? Imagine leaving office late at night and they might be recognized as one of the whores?
So yup, sign. Job hunt is hard. I still remember the press said that it is a booming job market now, and Jobs are plentiful. What they fail to report is that, it ainÂ’t that rosy for fresh graduates. -
good pts given.. nowadays, too many misleading job title around.
i was graduated from a shipping course with my diploma, and found an ad called risk mitigator (sorry for mis-spell), i thought it was like a risk surveyor for a ship, but end up to found out was an insurance company.
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common in the IT industry where everyone is either an analyst or a consultant
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+1code:
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Originally posted by thoreldan:common in the IT industry where everyone is either an analyst or a consultant
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Yeah .. i am also annoyed at the usage of "associate" vs. "executive". They can really refer to menial job scopes.Originally posted by thoreldan:common in the IT industry where everyone is either an analyst or a consultant -
Even DSTA's using it, associate engineerOriginally posted by New Creation:Yeah .. i am also annoyed at the usage of "associate" vs. "executive". They can really refer to menial job scopes.
Attended one of DSTA's career talk, it said something 'bout signing up as an associate engineer - if you do well, you become an engineer 2 years later. Or sayanora -
Yeah Precisely.. i cant stand this glorification of job titles...i mean.. what about good honestt here in giving the correct job title description? At least, job applicant's expectation will not be mis-managed. All party's time will not be wasted.Originally posted by Detached:Even DSTA's using it, associate engineer
Attended one of DSTA's career talk, it said something 'bout signing up as an associate engineer - if you do well, you become an engineer 2 years later. Or sayanora
Just flipped thru today's recruitment, Gosh Sony is hiring "Product Consultants"..when the job scope suggests.. this is jz a sales-man position behind a counter selling electronic products. .. Koaz.... -
its called job redesign
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this takes the cake....
XXX Company in Shenton Way wants you to be part of their team as Logistics and Upkeep Master...
found out they are hiring janitors/cleaners and paying $700 on the fly...
zzz
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Aiyah.. dis kind of thing.. Shao Jian Duo Guai hahhaha..
We in Uni is also Dua Kang dis kind of thing one..
CCA's post:
Treasurer: Financial Manager
Assistant Treasurer : Deputy Financial Manager
Publicity Head: Publicity Director and Manager
So stoooopid... but cannot deny it looks nice on resume although the job scope includes sai kang.. -
Originally posted by Master -_-:this takes the cake....
XXX Company in Shenton Way wants you to be part of their team as Logistics and Upkeep Master...
found out they are hiring janitors/cleaners and paying $700 on the fly...
zzz
Lol NOL is the same, using anaylst alot, i thought some kind of good position but it is the basic level of the staff -
Hmm.. i mean in Uni.. i guess..it is ok to "Dua Kang"; this is by virtue of the fact that indeed your sweat and toil in those sai kang.. needs to be rewarded; so.. hey i think it is perfectly alright to glorify certain items in your resume. No harm done bah. I mean employers are also not stupid lar; more or less they will know that there is always some form of exaggeration in every candidate's resume. It is just of matter of glorifying your CCA positions within reasonable boundaries k?Originally posted by motoway:Aiyah.. dis kind of thing.. Shao Jian Duo Guai hahhaha..
We in Uni is also Dua Kang dis kind of thing one..
CCA's post:
Treasurer: Financial Manager
Assistant Treasurer : Deputy Financial Manager
Publicity Head: Publicity Director and Manager
So stoooopid... but cannot deny it looks nice on resume although the job scope includes sai kang..
There is this memorable incident which my current boss shared with me. He said he interviewed this graduate a month ago; and he claimed that he is some events director in this club. When asked what was the typical budget he assigns to events in his club, he quoted a figure of $300,000. You know. er.. even establish banks like CITiBank.. will not spend so much on an events. Hence this dude was so busted. -
Koaz.. this is really over-doing it already...." Logistics and Upkeep Master"?!?!?!Originally posted by Master -_-:this takes the cake....
XXX Company in Shenton Way wants you to be part of their team as Logistics and Upkeep Master...
found out they are hiring janitors/cleaners and paying $700 on the fly...
zzz
Why as well say Sanitary Combatant Specialist?..;-) -
Originally posted by Master -_-:this takes the cake....
XXX Company in Shenton Way wants you to be part of their team as Logistics and Upkeep Master...
found out they are hiring janitors/cleaners and paying $700 on the fly...
zzz -
next time people introduce themselves to each other by their salary instead of job title liao.
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Originally posted by New Creation:
That's why always check the rank scale.
Are you in a Job Search? Beware of the Glorification/Mis-representation of Job titles
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1) I am disturbed by the usage of titles such as [b]“Management Associate”, “Management Trainee” or “Management Assistant”. Such programs usually stipulate that it’s a 2 years program; you will be rotated to different business functions within the company, learn stuff and eventually be posted to fixed position in the company at the end of the program. However, be careful in applying to such positions. There are scrupulous companies who hire graduates in such titles, simply to exploit you and get themselves a cheap temporary labor. Usually, a good gauge is to look at the pay they are paying you. For instance, I applied to this XXX Airline Management Trainee program. There were 3 rounds and I got through to the 2nd round. In the 2nd round, I told the interviewers that my expected salary is $2.5K. And subsequently, I was rejected. I called up my University’s career office and asked then to find out from the Airline why I was rejected. Hmm, indeed, in the end, the Airline said that they were only prepared to pay S$2.1K. This sum, is simply too little and reflects the Airline’s intention to hire cheap labor yeah?
2)I am also disturbed by the glorification of job titles. I applied to one of our local banks, the position for “Branch relationship Manager, Consumer Banking Group”. In the job advertisement, the job scope description was insightful; it talked about nurturing relationship with your customers’, understanding their needs, and then recommend the various innovative financial instruments and also provide in-depth financial expertise to help our clients. When I entered the interview, I had a rude shock. The interviewer said, “Look in essence, this is just an insurance agent job, period. There is no such thing as being based in a branch. This is a mobile job. Can you do it? Yes or No?” I retorted and said the advertisement states it is a branch relationship manager, meaning I will have a desk, serve walk in customers etc etc. The interviewer’s reply was, “Sure, it is just a fancy name. I can also call it personal banker, or privilege banker, or ultra supreme banker; but the job scope is still the same; sell insurance”. I was thinking how serious can this misrepresentation be!?!?!?! I guess, on one hand, I am glad the interviewers are candid and upfront; in fact, I left moments after this question was asked. On the other hand, I am a little pissed that I made a wasted trip to this bank due to a misrepresented job advertisement.
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For your para 2, on the bank, can I know which bank? PM me if u dun wanna post here.
thanks. -
i think 2.1k isn't considered low for a training job.
I swear graduates nowadays think money falls freely from the skies -
I am an overpaid Officeboy.
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Originally posted by New Creation:
It ain't rosy for you when you quote your pay too high. I would just go in and get the relevant experience and move out for a higher paying job. Singapore - you don't and can't expect much. You are just a fresh graduate. They have to train you.
1) I am disturbed by the usage of titles such as [b]“Management Associate”, “Management Trainee” or “Management Assistant”. Such programs usually stipulate that it’s a 2 years program; you will be rotated to different business functions within the company, learn stuff and eventually be posted to fixed position in the company at the end of the program. However, be careful in applying to such positions. There are scrupulous companies who hire graduates in such titles, simply to exploit you and get themselves a cheap temporary labor. Usually, a good gauge is to look at the pay they are paying you. For instance, I applied to this XXX Airline Management Trainee program. There were 3 rounds and I got through to the 2nd round. In the 2nd round, I told the interviewers that my expected salary is $2.5K. And subsequently, I was rejected. I called up my University’s career office and asked then to find out from the Airline why I was rejected. Hmm, indeed, in the end, the Airline said that they were only prepared to pay S$2.1K. This sum, is simply too little and reflects the Airline’s intention to hire cheap labor yeah?
So yup, sign. Job hunt is hard. I still remember the press said that it is a booming job market now, and Jobs are plentiful. What they fail to report is that, it ainÂ’t that rosy for fresh graduates.
If you said you have 5 years of experience, then I would think differently of your situation.
Do you know what a nurse in my time (6 years back) with a degree was paid in Singapore? The salary was just slightly more than half of what you put down.
Don't like the pay? Move out of your comfort zone , get out of Singapore and go compete on the world market. Unless you are some outstanding graduate , you will find that the same thing will still happen.
From my experience in a health data analyst role which pays around 6k per month, even in Australia, we have fresh graduates strutting in expecting to get a higher pay than the rest of us who are more qualified and experienced - they will learn it damn fast that with higher pay comes higher responsibility and with higher responsibility means you are first on the firing line or the reprimand list if something f**ks up even though it is not your fault. You don't have the practical experience to solve the problems that comes up . Textbook university experience does not count.
Get your experience and practical skill in the workplace first before you start negotiating for higher amounts. Trust me , once you hone on your skills and they are in demand, you can start negotiating for alot more or other employers will offer you more than what your current employer will offer. I know because this is my experience now. I started in a new career path with a very low pay a year ago (took a 1.3k paycut per month ) - got my skills and used the old skills in nursing, learnt through mistakes and improve my skills. A few months back I started a bidding war between 2 sections of my employing organisation - I moved to the highest bidder. Now I am moving again because another employer offered to take me in with a better offer and a scholarship. Mind you , I had 3 offers - all external bidding and all willing to up the other until the limit is reached.
So moral of the story : just get the experience. Don't call it cheap labour. Once your skills are good and in demand - you can move anywhere. -
Originally posted by fymk:
Icic. thanks for your candid assessment. Hmm, and yup, i didnt really get a fantatstic degree grade; cant even qualify as outstanding and sure as hell, i wun be able to move out of comfort zone bah.
[b]It ain't rosy for you when you quote your pay too high. I would just go in and get the relevant experience and move out for a higher paying job. Singapore - you don't and can't expect much. You are just a fresh graduate. They have to train you.
If you said you have 5 years of experience, then I would think differently of your situation.
Do you know what a nurse in my time (6 years back) with a degree was paid in Singapore? The salary was just slightly more than half of what you put down.
Don't like the pay? Move out of your comfort zone , get out of Singapore and go compete on the world market. Unless you are some outstanding graduate , you will find that the same thing will still happen.
From my experience in a health data analyst role which pays around 6k per month, even in Australia, we have fresh graduates strutting in expecting to get a higher pay than the rest of us who are more qualified and experienced - they will learn it damn fast that with higher pay comes higher responsibility and with higher responsibility means you are first on the firing line or the reprimand list if something f**ks up even though it is not your fault. You don't have the practical experience to solve the problems that comes up . Textbook university experience does not count.
Get your experience and practical skill in the workplace first before you start negotiating for higher amounts. Trust me , once you hone on your skills and they are in demand, you can start negotiating for alot more or other employers will offer you more than what your current employer will offer. I know because this is my experience now. I started in a new career path with a very low pay a year ago (took a 1.3k paycut per month ) - got my skills and used the old skills in nursing, learnt through mistakes and improve my skills. A few months back I started a bidding war between 2 sections of my employing organisation - I moved to the highest bidder. Now I am moving again because another employer offered to take me in with a better offer and a scholarship. Mind you , I had 3 offers - all external bidding and all willing to up the other until the limit is reached.
So moral of the story : just get the experience. Don't call it cheap labour. Once your skills are good and in demand - you can move anywhere.[/b]
I understand your point about the need for fresh grads to acquire the experience and doing so at a low pay until they are good enough to move on. Hmm it just irks me that considering inflation in SG is gg at 2% per annum per year; and i recall during the times when i was in Secondary 4, I heard the PM then (which was in 1997), that a uni grad can at most earn 2.5K. But its been like a decade now, (2007), and we still have companies offering 2.1K or below 2.5K per say? Thats like really sleazy for some companies to quote such a price? -
You know the job market crashed after I graduated and I won't mention names but a major courier company then was offering fresh grads an executive position at 1.4kOriginally posted by New Creation:Icic. thanks for your candid assessment. Hmm, and yup, i didnt really get a fantatstic degree grade; cant even qualify as outstanding and sure as hell, i wun be able to move out of comfort zone bah.
I understand your point about the need for fresh grads to acquire the experience and doing so at a low pay until they are good enough to move on. Hmm it just irks me that considering inflation in SG is gg at 2% per annum per year; and i recall during the times when i was in Secondary 4, I heard the PM then (which was in 1997), that a uni grad can at most earn 2.5K. But its been like a decade now, (2007), and we still have companies offering 2.1K or below 2.5K per say? Thats like really sleazy for some companies to quote such a price?
And just last year a local MNC was offering fresh grad marketing exec at 1.6k
Mind you, these are all global companies -
hmm well there are established MA programs which pays like avg of $2.7k in (marine & shipping sector), $2.8-$3k (banking and finance sector), $2.7-2.8K (property sector). I got these pay estimates from my classmates who are already hired in such positions.Originally posted by deathbait:i think 2.1k isn't considered low for a training job.
I swear graduates nowadays think money falls freely from the skies
Hence, i think for MA positions, it is ridiculous for it to be like 2.1K? And considering the above estimates, i only quoted my expected salary at 2.5K.. (considering they are a Bleedy rich airline, which ranks like 325 out of fortunes 500 companies)?
At least for me, i do recognize that money do not fall freely from the sky, and i was trying to ask for a fair value for my work done. In this case, i asked 2.5K cz it was a rich airline. I mean of course if i attended an interview in a FMCG company for a marketing executive position, of cz.. i would quote a lower expected salary of say 2.2K.
;-) -
hmm this is really terrifying. U mentioned in 2006, local MNC offering gresh grad at 1.6k? hmm is this for degree or diploma fresh grad? Gosh.. i mean.. thats really milking us dry?Originally posted by elindra:You know the job market crashed after I graduated and I won't mention names but a major courier company then was offering fresh grads an executive position at 1.4k
And just last year a local MNC was offering fresh grad marketing exec at 1.6k
Mind you, these are all global companies
I always get the impression that such MNCs are out to milk us SG grads dry. -
It was for NUS grad that they offered 1.6kOriginally posted by New Creation:hmm this is really terrifying. U mentioned in 2006, local MNC offering gresh grad at 1.6k? hmm is this for degree or diploma fresh grad? Gosh.. i mean.. thats really milking us dry?
I always get the impression that such MNCs are out to milk us SG grads dry.
It was casual talk at my customer's place and the exec in charge happened to be a fresh grad
And we happened to talk about that company for some reason and she told me how insulted she was when they offered her that as her starting pay