What if there really is no "You"
-
Ya... realising 'no self'... but doesnt necessarily mean anything about 'non egotistic' eh... this is a paradox..Originally posted by jondizzle foshizzle:Demonight don't bother arguing with Andrew, he's honestly the most arrogant and stuck up sonofabitch. I've argued with him before, he's an intellectual nazi who calls everyone who doesn't agree with him an idiot even though he's obviously the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. How a man like this learns anything I don't know because he just refuses to accept the opinions of others.
-
wah. another junk thread started by yappy
*snort* -
LOL
are you guys really smart or just arguing something really basic with words that are way over my head?
i think it's the latter.
This is Chit Chat forum babes, lets keep the noob english going.
this debate brings us back to the eternal question: iif there's no you, what is the purpose of life? -
haha, fark YOU
-
oh andrewykpap (sp?) and his idiocy again? not again!
-
Originally posted by udontknowme:wah. another junk thread started by yappy
*snort*
... doesn't that make you stupid for for contributing to the thread.... your words betray your stupidity.Originally posted by protonhybrid:oh andrewykpap (sp?) and his idiocy again? not again! -
... there is no paradox... "ego" like self and everything else, arises... you cannot deny it... to deny that ego arises is as bad as to consider and treat ego as inherent and to treat reality as a luminous ball of light... to consider only that form is emptiness but emptiness is never form... to those that say "it is empty", you teach them form.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Ya... realising 'no self'... but doesnt necessarily mean anything about 'non egotistic' eh... this is a paradox.. -
hahaha yes, there is that. But why do you assume that "no you" automatically suggests "no purpose" ?Originally posted by sexyfats:LOL
are you guys really smart or just arguing something really basic with words that are way over my head?
i think it's the latter.
This is Chit Chat forum babes, lets keep the noob english going.
this debate brings us back to the eternal question: iif there's no you, what is the purpose of life?
I rather think that facing reality for what is it, would enable you to understand the real purpose of your life instead of living a life of delusional purpose. If the reality is that there is no purpose and reason for your life... then no amount of delusion will make it purposeful and meaningful.
On the other hand, when you confront reality for what it is, then the meaning and purpose of your life is fundamentally rooted in reality and delusion cannot enter in. -
Originally posted by caleb_chiang:you may want FI to ban you so you will realise the exist of self in at least this forum...
Quit whinning...
Oso ...if there is no I and you who do we need evidence for 
-
I see where TS is going. The illogical mind's 'logic' to explain his 'whinings'. He cannot be held accountable because he does not exist
-
whoa sh1t, I do not exist! Help!!!!
-
With no offence at all, I have read some of your posts and topics and finally realised where your self-centred attitude came from. Since your opinion quite obviously advocates lack of 'self', you couldn't care less about people as a whole, much less care FOR them, but only for yourself.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hahaha yes, there is that. But why do you assume that "no you" automatically suggests "no purpose" ?
I rather think that facing reality for what is it, would enable you to understand the real purpose of your life instead of living a life of delusional purpose. If the reality is that there is no purpose and reason for your life... then no amount of delusion will make it purposeful and meaningful.
On the other hand, when you confront reality for what it is, then the meaning and purpose of your life is fundamentally rooted in reality and delusion cannot enter in.
When you take away 'self', you take away a higher purpose or consciousness in life, and you have the impression that accountability for your deeds is nullified once you die.
Here's wishing you good luck in what you believe in and Merry Christmas. -
I don't recognise your nick... so as far as it concerns offence, none taken...Originally posted by Rigante:With no offence at all, I have read some of your posts and topics and finally realised where your self-centred attitude came from. Since your opinion quite obviously advocates lack of 'self', you couldn't care less about people as a whole, much less care FOR them, but only for yourself.
When you take away 'self', you take away a higher purpose or consciousness in life, and you have the impression that accountability for your deeds is nullified once you die.
Here's wishing you good luck in what you believe in and Merry Christmas.
... it is not taking "away 'self'"; it is taking away the delusion of 'self'.
You would have to come up with the argument for a self, before you can talk about the "higher purpose or consciousness in life" or you would simply end up with a delusion. -
...delusions ... or beliefs... and where it concerns beliefs... Santa Claus makes believing children feel good and behave... and before you say Santa is a figment of people's imagination, try proving that Santa does not exist...
.. it is sad that 400 years after Descartes, people are still delusional... -
U are spot onOriginally posted by Rigante:With no offence at all, I have read some of your posts and topics and finally realised where your self-centred attitude came from. Since your opinion quite obviously advocates lack of 'self', you couldn't care less about people as a whole, much less care FOR them, but only for yourself.
When you take away 'self', you take away a higher purpose or consciousness in life, and you have the impression that accountability for your deeds is nullified once you die.
Here's wishing you good luck in what you believe in and Merry Christmas.
I can only add 'vain' to ur description. 
-
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Just to emphasize that.. in Buddhism... we only have individual mindstreams (Even though the mindstream is of the nature of Anatta or 'not-self', and there is no self within nor apart from that mindstream), but never any high concepts like 'universal consciousness', 'universal soul' of that sort that belongs to hinduism and new age. Sometimes things like telepathy or remote viewing can occur, but it has to do with the nature of non-locality and dependent origination, which is something different.
Merry Christmas to all!!
[b] quote:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
AEN should be excited with this because Buddhists too, believe in a universal consciousness.....
Not... really.
All manifestation are inseperable in one taste, but there is no such thing as a One Absolute All Pervading Consciousness or Soul behind manifestation. This belongs more to the Hindu concept.
Awareness/consciousness cannot be separated from conditions... There is no 'One Absolute' behind everything... but rather every conditioned arising, dependent arising is an absolute in itself!! The chirping of the bird outside... is an arising of an absolute... is itself pristine awareness...
Understanding this, thoughts is the universe, the experiences arising in the 'field' of the individual being is the universe... there is no 'universe' apart from that arising.. When you eat an apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple.
The problem when nonduality is glimpsed but not the nature of emptiness and dependent arising is that the practitioner will be inclined to form concepts of a Monistic all pervading subtrate behind all things... and make funny concepts like "you are me" and "i am you" as if we share the same soul... In fact if nonduality is seen very deeply, one would see that this is false..
You'll never see anything about a universal soul in Buddhism. Yet, our true nature is all pervading and all manifestation have one taste, the manifestation of our pristine awareness.
Just recalled, I posted this in dependent origination and middle way:
BTW quite recently, I have showed Thusness some of the quotations from an E-Sangha administrator and dharma teacher, Loppon Namdrol. Thusness commented (from these posts) that the writer is an enlightened persons.But in the end, one's rigpa is one's own rigpa, and not anyone elses. And when it is totally realized, all sense of self and other vanish anyway, so the identity issue will also vanish. But in terms of experiencing rigpa, it is your own rigpa you are experiencing, no one else's.
N
NBecause the rigpa you experience is your own, and it isn't anyone else's; just as when you taste sweet, it is your own experience, and no one else's.
Okay, the rigpa is one's own... but then doing guru yoga, aren't we (in instant presence) one with the guru's nature....indivisible... or is that somehow not the case?
PS-- thanks everyone for many wonderful posts above....
*
The knowledge is the same. It is like, for example, when two people are looking at the same thing and both recognize it at the same time, at that moment, though their experience is personal, it concerns the same thing.
NYou should not focus on words like "primordial state" other than to understand it refers to the union of dependent origination and emptiness in a Dzogchen context.
------------------
more recently... by the same posterQUOTE(Durkhrod Chogori @ Dec 9 2007, 07:50 PM)
Oh yeah, and this comes from an interesting topic that AndrewPKYap may want to read, its called the logic of rebirth
Moreover we have the concept of Universal consciousness...
*
No, actually, we don't.
it's funny how similar clyde is to andrewpkyap in some ways.QUOTE(clyde @ Dec 21 2007, 12:34 PM)
Namdrol;
The starting point is not the assertion or denial of rebirth, but whether the physical or mental is primary. I understand that materialists hold that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the body. I also understand that some Buddhists hold that the physical is dependent on the mind. My view, and I believe it is shared by some Buddhists, is that consciousness and body, the physical and the mind are co-dependent occurrences, each arising in mutual interdependence with the other.
*
Mind and matter are held to be mutually conditioning [rather than mutually dependent] by all Buddhist schools. This has to be the case, for example, in order for there to be a percept of a physical object through a physical sense organ.
Even so, as I implied above, the consequence of an absolute mutual dependence between a given body and a given mind still leads to a physicalist assertion, i.e. without that specific body, that specific mind is not possible. You might argue, it is also the case that without that specific mind that specific body is also impossible, but where as it is easy to see where the raw material for a body can come from, it is not so easy to see where the raw material out of which a coherent consciousness might arise from, it is not arising from a neural net.
Even if you argue that they arise together i.e. using some emergent property theory ala complexity, it is still a fundamentally physicalist argument.
Notions of universal consciousnesses are non-Buddhist beliefs entirely and can be left out of this discussion.
N -
From a conversation a while ago...
(11:54 AM) Thusness: if there is no universal consciousness, then what is the ultimate in buddhism?
(11:55 AM) AEN____: emptiness, dependent arising
(11:55 AM) Thusness: yes
(11:56 AM) Thusness: so what is buddhist teaching about consciousness?
(11:56 AM) AEN____: they're conditions?
(11:56 AM) Thusness: what do u mean by conditions?
(11:57 AM) Thusness: first u must understand AEN stream is AEN stream.
(11:57 AM) Thusness: Thusness stream is Thusness stream of consciousness
(11:57 AM) Thusness: consciousness is non-dual and empty
(11:58 AM) Thusness: and after understanding, to live as what we truly are.
(11:58 AM) Thusness: that is all.
(11:58 AM) AEN____: oic..
(11:59 AM) Thusness: all experiences are non-dual and empty
(11:59 AM) Thusness: this stream of Thusness consciousness is not AEN stream of consciousness
(11:59 AM) AEN____: oic
(12:00 PM) Thusness: and the purpose of practice is to live as what we original are.
(12:00 PM) Thusness: pure luminosity
(12:00 PM) Thusness: and know that our nature is empty.
(12:00 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:00 PM) Thusness: therefore the entire experience is oriented into DO (Dependent Origination).
(12:00 PM) Thusness: there is no universal consciousness
(12:01 PM) AEN____: oic.. yea
(12:01 PM) Thusness: the ultimate understanding is to know what consciousness is and know manifestion is what DO has expressed.
(12:02 PM) Thusness: to correct see consciousness as it is.
(12:02 PM) Thusness: nothing else.
(12:02 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:02 PM) Thusness: to experience clarity of our luminosity and its emptiness nature.
(12:02 PM) Thusness: the problem is we don't
(12:02 PM) Thusness: we continue to speculate even after the glimpse
(12:02 PM) Thusness: that is propensity
(12:03 PM) Thusness: we don't tune ourselves into actual practice
(12:04 PM) Thusness: into experiencing the fullest clarity of our luminous and empty nature.
(12:04 PM) Thusness: we do live as pure awareness
(12:04 PM) Thusness: don't
(12:04 PM) Thusness: that is the problem.
(12:04 PM) Thusness: we continue to engage in arbitary thoughts because of propensities.
(12:04 PM) Thusness: we give importance, meanings
(12:05 PM) Thusness: when u hear sound free of symbols, is it important?
(12:05 PM) AEN____: the experience is impt not the meaning
(12:06 PM) AEN____: ya its not impt
(12:06 PM) Thusness: have i told u that chanting is important in the chant, not the meaning?
(12:07 PM) AEN____: yea u told me
(12:07 PM) Thusness: why so?
(12:08 PM) AEN____: cos the mind can never grasp the experience?
(12:09 PM) Thusness: and what does that mean?
(12:09 PM) AEN____: tat means the mind can never 'understand' or 'know'
(12:10 PM) Thusness: knowing has not taken its proper place.
(12:10 PM) Thusness: first u must know what is the conventional mind about.
(12:10 PM) Thusness: it is about views and meanings are derived from these views.
(12:10 PM) Thusness: it is about constructs.
(12:11 PM) Thusness: the conventional mind is full of meanings and purposes.
(12:11 PM) Thusness: taht is what it is about.
(12:11 PM) Thusness: therefore the mind cannot understand because understanding is not the way.
(12:12 PM) Thusness: but to such dualistic mind, it immediately concludes that if there is no 'knowing' then we become a dumb dumb...a rock..
(12:12 PM) AEN____: lol
(12:13 PM) Thusness: because our mind is full of abitary thoughts and views, it is loaded meanings and purposes.
(12:13 PM) Thusness: when bare attention is taught, the mind cannot 'see'.
(12:14 PM) Thusness: because it has no meaning, purpose, views, constructs whatsoever.
(12:14 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:14 PM) Thusness: the essence cannot be intuitively grasped.
(12:14 PM) Thusness: however when the mind settles and is calm
(12:15 PM) Thusness: it is not looking for meaning
(12:15 PM) Thusness: is a person sitting still meaningful?
(12:15 PM) Thusness: is absorption meaningful?
(12:15 PM) Thusness: a practitioner when engaged in such activities experiences differently.
(12:15 PM) AEN____: no
(12:16 PM) Thusness: it touches the world of luminosity, presence and spontaneity.
(12:16 PM) AEN____: icic
(12:16 PM) Thusness: the unconditioned, the aliveness, spontaneity, oneness
(12:16 PM) Thusness: the Presence
(12:17 PM) AEN____: oic
(12:17 PM) Thusness: is not about meaning.
(12:17 PM) AEN____: ya..
(12:17 PM) Thusness: it is just that Presence that replaces all and the knowing is immediate and intuitive.
(12:18 PM) Thusness: it is to see understand our nature and experience in all circumstances, Presence is always there.
(12:18 PM) Thusness: and know to be truly alive, presence must be experienced.
(12:19 PM) Thusness: u can say this is the direct knowing in contrast to the dualistic knowing of a conventional mind.
(12:20 PM) Thusness: so a practitioner entire experience is oriented into experiencing its luminous empty nature and realises all as its manifestations.
(12:21 PM) Thusness: but saying all as its manifestation is not to say i am u.
(12:21 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:21 PM) Thusness: that is a dualistic subject and object view.
(12:22 PM) AEN____: oic
(12:23 PM) Thusness: u must know the advaita sort of experience when they say all is consciousness
(12:23 PM) Thusness: is different.
(12:23 PM) Thusness: they are talking about the sensor, the knower
(12:23 PM) Thusness: cannot be known and is ultimate
(12:23 PM) Thusness: from the known.
(12:24 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:24 PM) AEN____: then how is that 'all'
(12:24 PM) Thusness: but to a buddhist taht is non dualist, the sensor is known through the known
(12:25 PM) Thusness: the sensed/known is the instrument for sensing the sensor
(12:25 PM) Thusness: the sensor is also the instrument for sensing the sensed
(12:26 PM) Thusness: both the sensor and the sensed are equally unknowable and known
(12:26 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:26 PM) Thusness: both having one taste.
(12:26 PM) Thusness: inseparable.
(12:26 PM) AEN____: the 'sensor' is the citta rite
(12:27 PM) Thusness: yeah
(12:27 PM) Thusness: purity is not being free of anything
(12:27 PM) Thusness: is to know our empty nature that is ever manifesting
(12:27 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:28 PM) Thusness: citta is consciousness of the conceptual mind
(12:28 PM) Thusness: the knower
(12:28 PM) Thusness: the knower can only exist in analysis and thinking
(12:29 PM) Thusness: it does not exist in complete bare attention.
(12:29 PM) Thusness: an observer exists when we try to reconfirm an experience
(12:29 PM) Thusness: when we recall
(12:29 PM) Thusness: and arises as a result of comparision
(12:29 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:29 PM) Thusness: seems to exist but does not.
(12:30 PM) Thusness: a manifestation taht is non-dual in nature is not a stage
(12:30 PM) Thusness: it is not a stage that we eliminate our 'selfs'
(12:30 PM) Thusness: the observer
(12:30 PM) Thusness: it is to know that the 'observer' is an illusion.
(12:31 PM) Thusness: so that the DO and luminosity emptiness nature is seen.
(12:32 PM) Thusness: DO is the right perspective of non-dual experience for the conventional mind to 'see'.
(12:33 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:33 PM) Thusness: once this is seen, we must 'turn' and allow that 'dualistic propensity' to dissolve
(12:33 PM) Thusness: there are many ways but bare attention and naked awareness to me is best.
(12:34 PM) Thusness: once the nature is understood, the 6 paramitas is understood.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: we do not enaged ourselves into useless speculation further knowing that it is propensities that blind.
(12:35 PM) Thusness: instead, we work at all levels to allow conditions to meet and allow propensities to manifest
(12:36 PM) Thusness: practice the parimatas in all circumstances to all conditions to mirror the latent deep and dissolve that sense of self.
(12:36 PM) Thusness: it is not to create useless construct and understand meanings
(12:37 PM) Thusness: but experience that luminous empty nature in all activities by dissolving the sense of self.
(12:38 PM) Thusness: so when one continue to make sense of after non-dual experience, he will confuse himself further.
(12:38 PM) Thusness: he has no clarity of the unconditioned, the unborn, the aliveness yet -
(12:39 PM) Thusness: the 'bond' or the tendency to 'hold' will manifest when meeting conditions
(12:39 PM) Thusness: that is where the practice is.
(12:40 PM) Thusness: when such condition does not arise, one rest in naked awareness
(12:40 PM) Thusness: absorption in pure luminosity in every authentication.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: when hearing, just the sound.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: the sound is the rigpa so to speak.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: it is the depth of clarity of this experience.
(12:41 PM) Thusness: dzogchen called it contemplation
(12:41 PM) Thusness: i called it vipassanic
(12:42 PM) Thusness: bare and naked of a manifestation
(12:42 PM) Thusness: whatever we called it doesn't matter.
(12:42 PM) Thusness: it is to have this clarity of luminosity
(12:42 PM) Thusness: before split
(12:43 PM) Thusness: that is the pracitce.
(12:43 PM) Thusness: till one reaches permanent lucidity
(12:43 PM) Thusness: a non-dualist that has stabilized this experience does not have a subject-object split.
(12:44 PM) Thusness: he does not have a body, sensation, touching...etc mental construct
(12:44 PM) Thusness: if we want to say, his world view is luminosity of manifestion according to DO.
(12:44 PM) Thusness: that is his world view.
(12:45 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:45 PM) AEN____: wat u mean by "he does not have a body, sensation, touching...etc mental construct"
(12:45 PM) Thusness: he becomes a whole manifestion of luminosity-emptiness
(12:45 PM) Thusness: means he doesn't have an idea that a body, or hand, or sensation touches anything
(12:46 PM) Thusness: just like what i told u about the vibration of someone opening the door.
(12:46 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:47 PM) Thusness: otherwise when u kept saying the universe eats an apple, what do u mean?
(12:47 PM) Thusness:
(12:47 PM) Thusness: just tok tok ah
(12:47 PM) Thusness: then how can u know what is chanting
(12:47 PM) Thusness: the world of maha
(12:48 PM) Thusness: there is only the sense of self taht limits
(12:48 PM) Thusness: nothing else.
(12:48 PM) Thusness: when we doubt, it is only when we think and divide.
(12:48 PM) Thusness: not in the actual experience of practice.
(12:48 PM) AEN____: icic..
(12:49 PM) AEN____: haha
(12:49 PM) Thusness: but u must understand it before u post anything. Don't just cut and paste.
(12:49 PM) AEN____: lol.. ok
(12:50 PM) Thusness: a person cannot orientate himself totally into DO because he still react to his habitual dualistic way of understanding things.
(12:51 PM) Thusness: he unknowingly continue to orientate himself his non-dual experience in a dualistic mode and gets confused.
(12:52 PM) Thusness: so one must put in real effort and practice diligently till 'turning point'
(12:53 PM) Thusness: that is all dualistic views are replaced with non-dual inisight.
(12:53 PM) Thusness: this comes from being bare in attention.
(12:53 PM) AEN____: oic..
(12:53 PM) Thusness: dualistic way of apprehension can still continue after that.
(12:54 PM) Thusness: but it is understood as a tool to get ourselves around.
(12:54 PM) Thusness: no more than that.
(12:54 PM) Thusness: one is not confused.
(12:55 PM) AEN____: icic.. -
there is a 'you' before death definitely. what is there to doubt? you are bascially a animal, an object, a human and adult , singaporean and other aspects.....Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:ahhhh... but is there a me, and if there is, what sort of a me, is there, before death?
there is nothing chim about it.... -
if we do not exist then moral does not exist.....and if moral does not exist...its okay for wars, rape, killing to happen coz it wouldn't be a crime then becoz we are just plain matter.......than the survival of the fittest is true....we are no more better than animals......we are a disease to the world around us......we take from it until we are left with nothing.......just plain matter trying to survive on other matters
-
This is actually what it is .... but we have intellect and we are therefore above this .... irony is most of the time we are worst than animals. A lion sleeps satisfied once appetite satiated and the dog wags its tail when happy .... but not so the human beingOriginally posted by Deino:if we do not exist then moral does not exist.....and if moral does not exist...its okay for wars, rape, killing to happen coz it wouldn't be a crime then becoz we are just plain matter.......than the survival of the fittest is true....we are no more better than animals......we are a disease to the world around us......we take from it until we are left with nothing.......just plain matter trying to survive on other matters 
-
Hmm.. think you never read my post properly. There's a sentence that already answerd to your question.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Are you saying that a human is like this thread... if no one acknowledges its existence, then it does not exist?
And if you still do not get it then don't bother to reply, we will just leave it as that.
Just that you must realize and learn to accept that people do have difference in values, perception and their beliefs.
Thank you. -
... words of a simpleton...Originally posted by TS Kan:U are spot on I can only add 'vain' to ur description. -
... you are taking the easy way out but it is not reality....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
...you have gone to the extreme of emptiness.... and yes, at the extreme of emptiness, reality is a luminous ball of light and nothing else...
... the other extreme from emptiness is that what you see, "form" is everything.
... to him that says, luminosity, you teach form... -
... you are right when you say we are "bascially a animal, an object, a human and adult , singaporean and other aspects....." but you fail to see that "an animal" is an aggregate and so is "Singaporean"... that which composes "you" are themselves made up of "parts".Originally posted by january:there is a 'you' before death definitely. what is there to doubt? you are bascially a animal, an object, a human and adult , singaporean and other aspects.....
there is nothing chim about it....