Serious scientist cannot believe in divine creator?
-
So then why did God pwnz the Egyptians and the Ammonites, and countless other tribes.Originally posted by niquelicious:it doesnt matter to you because you dont see any impact of God in the world today..
you dont need to have some big cataclysmic event to show the existence and presence of God. like, dude, God is cool man. it aint cool for him to pop out to blatantly show his almightiness and say "i am t3h creator and i pwnz all of u" theres definitely more beauty in him working personally with others to win the hearts of each one personally.
and ultimately, being a believer is a very personal thing, coupled with personal experiences and more. so saying that God doesnt matter is like saying your buddy best friend who you owe alot to is non existent..
Why did God send himself to the earth and supposedly work miracles?
I guess he changed his mind huh. In the past, he thought pwnzing was cool. But now, he has decided to stay hidden. God is indeed mysterious.
I don't quite understand what you mean when you say "saying that God doesnt matter is like saying your buddy best friend who you owe alot to is non existent.." -
Was I talking about whether or not 'they STILL do not know and still WANT to know'? In my first post, I talked about the danger of making (investment decisions, for example) based on unfounded beliefs and you said, 'End result is the same, but its the process that differs. and i dont see any possible compromise in effectiveness in both cases'.Originally posted by niquelicious:wrong again..
by 'faith', i am referring to by faith, one would believe that God knows.
but at the same time, they STILL do not know and still WANT to know..
I said it is not the same because scientific people readily admits that they don't know but believers take it as they know, by faith. They take it as they know, by faith, and they have confidence, by faith and use that knowledge and confidence to help them make decisions.
You said: 'but if you are really stuck and conclusion-less, what is wrong with resorting to "Faith?"'
By that you mean, you are stuck and 'conclusion-less' but you go ahead anyway 'By Faith'.
What are you talking about when you say 'one would believe that God knows. but at the same time, they STILL do not know and still WANT to know'.
So they know or don't know and do they go with faith if they do not know or do they not go with faith? -
well, i meant that to a believer, saying God isnt present or is nonexistent in our world today is like saying your buddy best friend who you owe alot to is non existent..Originally posted by Phaze:So then why did God pwnz the Egyptians and the Ammonites, and countless other tribes.
Why did God send himself to the earth and supposedly work miracles?
I guess he changed his mind huh. In the past, he thought pwnzing was cool. But now, he has decided to stay hidden. God is indeed mysterious.
I don't quite understand what you mean when you say "saying that God doesnt matter is like saying your buddy best friend who you owe alot to is non existent.."
and anyway, God didnt blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the egyptians and ammonites as well.. if youre talking abt all those plagues and whatnot, the world today also has so many freaky diseases like SARS and AIDS..
and abt your point abt God being hidden: mysteriously hidden he may be, but he still does his stuff on earth anyways.. you should go talk to some christian friends and ask them what God has done for them personally. hopefully, you can get some answers out of them -
So the Bible said that God did it and you claim that the Bible is wrong? It was "the world today also has so many freaky diseases like SARS and AIDS.." natural?Originally posted by niquelicious:well, i meant that to a believer, saying God isnt present or is nonexistent in our world today is like saying your buddy best friend who you owe alot to is non existent..
and anyway, God didnt blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the egyptians and ammonites as well.. if youre talking abt all those plagues and whatnot, the world today also has so many freaky diseases like SARS and AIDS..
and abt your point abt God being hidden: mysteriously hidden he may be, but he still does his stuff on earth anyways.. you should go talk to some christian friends and ask them what God has done for them personally. hopefully, you can get some answers out of them -
okay let me clarify what i earlier posted.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Was I talking about whether or not 'they STILL do not know and still WANT to know'? In my first post, I talked about the danger of making (investment decisions, for example) based on unfounded beliefs and you said, 'End result is the same, but its the process that differs. and i dont see any possible compromise in effectiveness in both cases'.
I said it is not the same because scientific people readily admits that they don't know but believers take it as they know, by faith. They take it as they know, by faith, and they have confidence, by faith and use that knowledge and confidence to help them make decisions.
You said: 'but if you are really stuck and conclusion-less, what is wrong with resorting to "Faith?"'
By that you mean, you are stuck and 'conclusion-less' but you go ahead anyway 'By Faith'.
What are you talking about when you say 'one would believe that God knows. but at the same time, they STILL do not know and still WANT to know'.
So they know or don't know and do they go with faith if they do not know or do they not go with faith?
----
Situation 1: Non-believer meets unexplainable predicament
Nonbeliever: damn, like that how to explain xia.. really dunno.. i better go and research mroe..
----
Situation 2: Believer meets unexplainable predicament
Believer: damn, like that how to explain xia, really dunno.. i better go research summore.. God is so proz i wonder how he did it..
----
Conclusion: the difference is that when met with an unexplainable problem, a believer can also admit his lack of enlightenment, and say that he doesnt know. BUT at the same time, he also acknowledges that God pwnz and knows his stuff.. thats a relief. BUT it doesnt stop him from wanting to discover the answer himself.
ppl that keep falling back on "God did it" to answer their problems arent representative of the whole group of believers.. there are some people who are lazy to find their own answers. but at the same time, there are plenty of people who still do figure things out for themselves
its not as if the case is very different for non-believers. there are scientists who still go on to question the unanswered, while there are also ppl who dont care for answers or are too lazy to do their research. -
Then why did you (17 January 2008 · 09:55 AM) quote my post which was talking about making investment decisions?Originally posted by niquelicious:okay let me clarify what i earlier posted.
----
Situation 1: Non-believer meets unexplainable predicament
Nonbeliever: damn, like that how to explain xia.. really dunno.. i better go and research mroe..
----
Situation 2: Believer meets unexplainable predicament
Believer: damn, like that how to explain xia, really dunno.. i better go research summore.. God is so proz i wonder how he did it..
----
Conclusion: the difference is that when met with an unexplainable problem, a believer can also admit his lack of enlightenment, and say that he doesnt know. BUT at the same time, he also acknowledges that God pwnz and knows his stuff.. thats a relief. BUT it doesnt stop him from wanting to discover the answer himself.
ppl that keep falling back on "God did it" to answer their problems arent representative of the whole group of believers.. there are some people who are lazy to find their own answers. but at the same time, there are plenty of people who still do figure things out for themselves
its not as if the case is very different for non-believers. there are scientists who still go on to question the unanswered, while there are also ppl who dont care for answers or are too lazy to do their research.
In this post, which follows from your earlier (17 January 2008 · 09:55 AM) post I do not see you addressing the issue of making decisions (like making investment decisions) using 'beliefs' and 'faith' rather than reality, facts and evidence. -
Sorry, pls do not quote me out of context.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So the Bible said that God did it and you claim that the Bible is wrong? It was "the world today also has so many freaky diseases like SARS and AIDS.." natural?
i am referring to the fact that God did not blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses and go muahahaha. According to the bible, pestilence and plague were sent to Egypt because Pharoh did not let Moses and the Hebrew slaves go free from Egypt. Yet, he still did not appear to in person to blatantly flaunt his power
and i see where this discussion is moving on to.. asking if God sent diseases like SARS and AIDS into the world would lead to the discussion of why there is pain and suffering in the world.. which would take quite alot of time and effort to discuss fully.. bleh.. muz discuss from the big picture christian point of view.. but if you insist, i guess i might post it..
BUT a summary of it would be the omnipotence of God means that pain and suffering is present in the world because it was allowed by God and is also a consequence of various actions of mankind. HOWEVER, the intention of pain and suffering is not for the sake of wanting to see people suffer and to laugh at them sadistically, but many other big picture things altogether. -
... when you said "pestilence and plague were sent to Egypt', whom do you mean sent those 'pestilence and plague' to 'pwnzorx' them? Because you said, 'i am referring to the fact that God did not'.Originally posted by niquelicious:Sorry, pls do not quote me out of context.
i am referring to the fact that God did not blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses and go muahahaha. According to the bible, pestilence and plague were sent to Egypt because Pharoh did not let Moses and the Hebrew slaves go free from Egypt. Yet, he still did not appear to in person to blatantly flaunt his power
and i see where this discussion is moving on to.. asking if God sent diseases like SARS and AIDS into the world would lead to the discussion of why there is pain and suffering in the world.. which would take quite alot of time and effort to discuss fully.. bleh.. muz discuss from the big picture christian point of view.. but if you insist, i guess i might post it..
BUT a summary of it would be the omnipotence of God means that pain and suffering is present in the world because it was allowed by God and is also a consequence of various actions of mankind. HOWEVER, the intention of pain and suffering is not for the sake of wanting to see people suffer and to laugh at them sadistically, but many other big picture things altogether.
If 'God did not' then who? -
oh if youre talking abt investment decisions, are u like referring to using God in investment decisions so that the investment would go successfully to earn money, as in youre trying to milk God for money?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Then why did you (17 January 2008 · 09:55 AM) quote my post which was talking about making investment decisions?
In this post, which follows from your earlier (17 January 2008 · 09:55 AM) post I do not see you addressing the issue of making decisions (like making investment decisions) using 'beliefs' and 'faith' rather than reality, facts and evidence.
beliefs and faith need not apply to all matters and issues which are neutral-based. for example, usually, you dont use beliefs and faith to decide what you are going to have for lunch.
and sometimes, christians believe that God chooses to remain silent when consulted on certain issues. however, it doesnt mean that he remains silent all the time. He only intervenes when there is a need to.
So abt your investment decision, God need not always answer you, and you need not necessarily use 'beliefs and faith' in all decisions. meaning, i think ull be on ur own trying to gamble for money there..
at the same time, i think you should also be careful to draw the line between believers and over-zealous-semi-delusional fanatics. there are people who like to claim that God told them to do certain things and then they go out to do inhuman insane things in his name.. but there is certainly no reason to believe such people!
its just the same as our good ol' Muslim friends and those semi-delusional (if not TOTALLY delusional) radical islamists in Iraq. They are clearly not the same. so why dont Christians receive the same treatment? -
So you do not include God in your investment decision-making and you think it is wrong to include God in decision making?Originally posted by niquelicious:oh if youre talking abt investment decisions, are u like referring to using God in investment decisions so that the investment would go successfully to earn money, as in youre trying to milk God for money?
beliefs and faith need not apply to all matters and issues which are neutral-based. for example, usually, you dont use beliefs and faith to decide what you are going to have for lunch.
and sometimes, christians believe that God chooses to remain silent when consulted on certain issues. however, it doesnt mean that he remains silent all the time. He only intervenes when there is a need to.
So abt your investment decision, God need not always answer you, and you need not necessarily use 'beliefs and faith' in all decisions. meaning, i think ull be on ur own trying to gamble for money there..
at the same time, i think you should also be careful to draw the line between believers and over-zealous-semi-delusional fanatics. there are people who like to claim that God told them to do certain things and then they go out to do inhuman insane things in his name.. but there is certainly no reason to believe such people!
its just the same as our good ol' Muslim friends and those semi-delusional (if not TOTALLY delusional) radical islamists in Iraq. They are clearly not the same. so why dont Christians receive the same treatment? -
Agreed. Religions preach endurance ,gratitude, contentment and forgiveness, and these can cure the social ills and personal pain.Only unconditional love found in religions can cure it.Originally posted by Catknight:It seems that now religions are making a comeback as men realise that money and technology cannot solve the social ills and personal pain their lives.... -
HOIIII can u dont quote me out of contxt -_-Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:... when you said "pestilence and plague were sent to Egypt', whom do you mean sent those 'pestilence and plague' to 'pwnzorx' them? Because you said, 'i am referring to the fact that God did not'.
If 'God did not' then who?
very funny to merely quote 'I am referring to the fact that God did not' and leave out the rest.
i believe the whole sentence was:
"i am referring to the fact that God did not blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses and go muahahaha."
Bible states that he sent the plagues, BUT he did not pop out and to show himself and go muahahahah
-_- -
I just needed to clarify whether to you God did or did not, because why tell us 'blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses and go muahahaha' and what difference does it make? The 'pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses', is what mattered.Originally posted by niquelicious:HOIIII can u dont quote me out of contxt -_-
very funny to merely quote 'I am referring to the fact that God did not' and leave out the rest.
i believe the whole sentence was:
"i am referring to the fact that God did not blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses and go muahahaha."
Bible states that he sent the plagues, BUT he did not pop out and to show himself and go muahahahah
-_-
So please confirm, did God or did God not 'pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses'? -
The question should not be whether to or to not include God in decision making (in your case, investment).Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So you do not include God in your investment decision-making and you think it is wrong to include God in decision making?
when presented with a decision, a believer would firstly look at the pros and cons, the facts and evidence. (i dont like how u depict believers as irrational beings -_-)
usually, if facts, evidence and whatnot are so blatantly clear for you to make your decision, then go ahead by all means.
in some circumstances, God intervenes in a situation, something called divine intervention. When this happens, the decision maker is presented with a new factor to consider. Divine intervention might take the form of a friend suddenly telling something you didnt know, or your desired company that you want to invest going bust, or that your mom telling you to go home for dinner and dont work so hard, or the power failing when u want to invest, or many many other things. These factors may be big or small and may have varying influences to your decision. But nevertheless, they become new facts and evidence/pros and cons to consider.
like if the power keeps going off, then you will think: wah kao, this place the infrastructure so lousy.. mebbe i shouldnt invest. or if the company suddenly goes bust and you learn that corruption and fraud is rampant in the company.
then you would think hey dude, its stupid to invest in xxx company pte ltd.
conclusion to what a believer would usually do:
when faced with a decision, look at the pros and cons, facts and evidence, then if there is a need to seek guidance, consult religious sources. if there happens to be significant divine intervention, then take that into account too. then analyse everything from a big picture perspective and come to your conclusion. -
-_-Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I just needed to clarify whether to you God did or did not, because why tell us 'blatantly pop out and pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses and go muahahaha' and what difference does it make? The 'pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses', is what mattered.
So please confirm, did God or did God not 'pwnzorx all the people with plagues and curses'?
i believe you should re-read the posts. they are quite clear.
The Bible states that God sent the plagues and pestilence to the people of Egypt becuase they did not free Moses and his people.
what i said is that God did not make a blatant appearance to cast the plagues onto the egyptians. From a nonbeliever perspective at that time, it would appear as if the plagues suddenly came as a natural phenomenon, but when moses told them that God sent it, they started to blame God for sending them. and subsequently, they blamed Pharoh for not giving in to Moses' demands because it made the plague continue
God did not make an actual appearance. he did nto appear as a big shining figure and boom over Egypt, saying that a curse will fall upon them. This is in reference to modern times, saying that God need not make a full blatant appearance for the world to know he is there.
At the same time, please do not misinteprete this post as saying that God sent modern day diseases to earth to torment humans and to revel at our suffering. Such diseases were sent, but with a different and more positive intention. -
You say, (i dont like how u depict believers as irrational beings -_-) and you then support my conclusions by saying, or that your mom telling you to go home for dinner and dont work so hard, .Originally posted by niquelicious:The question should not be whether to or to not include God in decision making (in your case, investment).
when presented with a decision, a believer would firstly look at the pros and cons, the facts and evidence. (i dont like how u depict believers as irrational beings -_-)
usually, if facts, evidence and whatnot are so blatantly clear for you to make your decision, then go ahead by all means.
in some circumstances, God intervenes in a situation, something called divine intervention. When this happens, the decision maker is presented with a new factor to consider. Divine intervention might take the form of a friend suddenly telling something you didnt know, or your desired company that you want to invest going bust, or that your mom telling you to go home for dinner and dont work so hard, or the power failing when u want to invest, or many many other things. These factors may be big or small and may have varying influences to your decision. But nevertheless, they become new facts and evidence/pros and cons to consider.
like if the power keeps going off, then you will think: wah kao, this place the infrastructure so lousy.. mebbe i shouldnt invest. or if the company suddenly goes bust and you learn that corruption and fraud is rampant in the company.
then you would think hey dude, its stupid to invest in xxx company pte ltd.
conclusion to what a believer would usually do:
when faced with a decision, look at the pros and cons, facts and evidence, then if there is a need to seek guidance, consult religious sources. if there happens to be significant divine intervention, then take that into account too. then analyse everything from a big picture perspective and come to your conclusion.
So I guess when you say rational you also mean it is rational to take into account your mom telling you to go home for dinner and dont work so hard, .
So I guess the next time I make my investment decisions I should decide whether to buy or sell depending on whether my mother calls and asks me to buy eggs on the way home (BUY!!!! BUY!!!!) or if she tells me that she sold the old newspapers to the karang gunni man (SELL!!!! SELL!!!!).
One gambling addict I interviewed for my book told me that he will leave the table if he feels an urge to urinate because God is telling him that he is going to lose if he continues. I guess in your estimation, he is very rational and (i dont like how u depict believers as irrational beings -_-) . -
So the plagues appeared as 'as a natural phenomenon' but in reality God sent the plagues?Originally posted by niquelicious:-_-
i believe you should re-read the posts. they are quite clear.
The Bible states that God sent the plagues and pestilence to the people of Egypt becuase they did not free Moses and his people.
what i said is that God did not make a blatant appearance to cast the plagues onto the egyptians. From a nonbeliever perspective at that time, it would appear as if the plagues suddenly came as a natural phenomenon, but when moses told them that God sent it, they started to blame God for sending them. and subsequently, they blamed Pharoh for not giving in to Moses' demands because it made the plague continue
God did not make an actual appearance. he did nto appear as a big shining figure and boom over Egypt, saying that a curse will fall upon them. This is in reference to modern times, saying that God need not make a full blatant appearance for the world to know he is there.
At the same time, please do not misinteprete this post as saying that God sent modern day diseases to earth to torment humans and to revel at our suffering. Such diseases were sent, but with a different and more positive intention.
... and in modern times, God sent disease 'with a different and more positive intention'?
Let me see, God had good positive intention when he sends plagues, curses and diseases?
So the world should not try to stop or prevent AIDS, CANCER and ACCIDENTS and we should just tell those people, 'Hey God gave it to you out of the goodness of his heart. God had 'positive intention'? -
god's dad created god, god's dad's dad created god's dad, and so on....Originally posted by youyayu:there must be a creator.. be it alien or god.. there must be... if not how are we form? and who created god? and who create the aliens? and who create u and i? only till death u know -
and if God can pop out of nowhere, the universe can pop out of nowhere.Originally posted by the.owl:god's dad created god, god's dad's dad created god's dad, and so on.... -
actualy we never exist lol. everything including sgforum or yourself is a fake. but blad bald
adwfa
geag
gtejrjaj gn, gejraeabioogtinvn, yrorugn nfh. hte. 2gyd h??
sirtygh,
yomohohdn, thupplkb and. gjerhfdhdul !!! ???
haha .. blskfheanfmb !!! -
oh please, those are not exclusive to religion. religion is not necesasry to solve those problems. it's usually those weaker minded ones who need religion as a panadol to their problems.Originally posted by ahsiang12:Agreed. Religions preach endurance ,gratitude, contentment and forgiveness, and these can cure the social ills and personal pain.Only unconditional love found in religions can cure it. -
Because there is no god.
-
Exactly. A creator is a superfluous construct. An unnecessary additional step in explaining the universe.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:and if God can pop out of nowhere, the universe can pop out of nowhere.
For those who loves the 'poetic' construct of a 'god' being, here's a non-personal, totally naturalistic "GOD" for you that is perfectly rational to believe with what we already know.
www.pantheism.net
Yes, certain types of gods are possible. But they are not plausible.
There are infinite of imaginable things which can be said to be possible just as long as no logical contradiction exists...i.e. An omnipotient ALL KNOWING Hell creator, being benevolent, is a contradiction. But out of those infinite, only a negligible few 'might' be plausible. Hence the actual plausibility of any possibilities IF without a sound basis is a waste of time until we DO know more.
Believing in something just because it is emotionally appealing to you is to deepen your ignorance and leading yourself deeper into the darkness. -
eh. is this a philosophical thread?
-
Agreed. Religions preach endurance ,gratitude, contentment and forgiveness, and these can cure the social ills and personal pain.Only unconditional love found in religions can cure it.
Sorry man, religion teaches u tat u r different from other people of other faith. In the bible, they tell believers not to listen to non believers, they are fools, they deserve to go to hell, they r evil and followers of devil and believers should massacre them.Religions segregate people. Tat is why there is inquisition, crusades and terrorism. And yes, there r a lot of conflicts caused by terrorism and it is due to difference in religion. In the past perhaps more than 99% of the people in europe r christians or muslim or jews. Why is tat period one the most chaotic and brutal period in history ?
Religion also teaches u to throw away rationality and against inquiry. Tis is because with science, part of the scripture seemed to be contradictory to found fact. Tat is why science like evolution is not believed by people simply because their religion teaches them so. When u come to a question about religion which no ne can answer, wat is their answer they give ? God works in mysterious way. Men is too foolish to know god. Then all inquiry ends here, at the assumption.
U see, nothing in tis world tell people to be wary of good science. It is always promoted and it is the best form of knowledge men have and it is proven to work. Only religion tell people science is wrong. Why is tat so? It is simply because it contradicts their scripture
God did not make an actual appearance. he did nto appear as a big shining figure and boom over Egypt, saying that a curse will fall upon them. This is in reference to modern times, saying that God need not make a full blatant appearance for the world to know he is there
Why not ? He want people to believe him or not believe him ? If he do not appear, people have ample good reasons not to believe in him. And god send them to hell ?!?! Why did he want to play such a game with people ? The bible telling people to be wary of the devil and tricks yet they expect us to believe blindly to the bible ?
The only reason is, there is no god, but they want u to believe there is, so they hide it, and threathen u to believe in it