Serious scientist cannot believe in divine creator?
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Which is odd as sceince and religion never was seperate to begin with.Originally posted by Phaze:But serious scientists, even if they are religious, do not allow their religion to influence their science. -
hmm i've met scientists who believe in creation. they came to give talks and stuff.
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you can be a scientist AND a believer in the divine
BUT, compartmentalization is important here.
Science requires everything to be falsifiable.
Religion unfortunately will never be.
As long as you can wrap your mind around having two conflicting outlooks at the world, you can be both religious and a man of science. Too often however, ppl can't. -
No problem with that. Unless they start to claim that the Creationism idea is Scientific fact.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm i've met scientists who believe in creation. they came to give talks and stuff. -
yep. they do claim that.Originally posted by Phorum Noob:No problem with that. Unless they start to claim that the Creationism idea is Scientific fact.
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Science requires skepticism.Originally posted by shade343:Which is odd as sceince and religion never was seperate to begin with.
Absolute faith, which is required by many religions to prevent you from being tortured by God for eternality, is incompatible with that.
There's always a well supported uncertainty in any Scientific claims.
The first instinct to any claims is to doubt until it is scientifically proven (via maths based soundly on known laws, AND with carefully analysed experimental data)...etc...
Many of the claims made in religion are neither provable nor falsifiable. Hence they can never be supported with Scientific tools.
THere are an infinite of crazy imaginable things. It is save to say that 99.9999...% of them are non-existant. There is no good reason other than for our emotional needs that we delude ourselves to believe in some of them.
Certain things, its ok to go with it even without any rational proofs.
But of those thing that have a big impact in our lifes (i.e. having to spend so much time per week devoted to worshipping some invisible being) we ought to have a well founded reason to believe in them. Do not trust any religious figures, or scriptures just simply because they say so. The so-called "Common sense" is not a good tool to use as it can be emotionally biased. The default mode is always to doubt first for supernatural claims until you yourselfs have seen it.
I have no good reason to believe in any types of gods at this point, hence I can't help but disbelieve in any of them. If it so happens that a certain God does exists and it wants to burn and torture me for eternality for my disbelieve, then I would say that this god is unjust and evil. The 'devil' would be a more accurate term for it then. -
Singaporean ah!? Names? Where do they work?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:yep. they do claim that. -
well, athesim is also making a comeback too.Originally posted by Catknight:It seems that now religions are making a comeback as men realise that money and technology cannot solve the social ills and personal pain their lives.... -
they are probably too busy in their science to question their religion.Originally posted by Phaze:But serious scientists, even if they are religious, do not allow their religion to influence their science.
I find it strange though that scientists believes religion -
Imagine the primary science exam.Originally posted by Phorum Noob:Scientists can still believe in religion what.
Just that they do not apply religion when doing Science.
Otherwise, everything can simply be explained as "God-Did-It"...end of story...
Also, they don't apply scientific skepticism/rational-thinking when they return back to their religious mode.
What is the parts that carry the food from the soil to the leaves of a plant?
God did it.
Why is there thunder strike?
Because God has just sneezed. -
Compartmentalization - I heard this word before in a video which explain believer scientists.Originally posted by deathbait:you can be a scientist AND a believer in the divine
BUT, compartmentalization is important here.
Science requires everything to be falsifiable.
Religion unfortunately will never be.
As long as you can wrap your mind around having two conflicting outlooks at the world, you can be both religious and a man of science. Too often however, ppl can't.
Actually, given that there are tens or hundreds of scientists of different types in the world, its reasonable that many of them believe in religion, even if it is a small percentages.
THe main thing is that scientists does not necessary lead to atheism type of people.
Many atheist comes from computer, engineering and other faculties.
I think that arts people tend to be more believer because arts people talk more about feelings that equations. -
If religion is feed to a person repeatedly from young, it will be hard for them to change. An instilled sense of guilt and fear will still be present from all that prior 'brainwashing'.
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Why donÂ’t we just play a game ? Lets imagine we wanna form a new religion and discuss wat r the necessary elements involved in it to make it believable.
Firstly, we need to attract people to believe in our religion. How to do tat ? A traditional way to make people do something is simply to use the carrot and stick approach. So believers get to have a great reward while non-believers get a big punishment.
But our religion is false, how do we give out the great reward or punishment ?
Well, a simple way is to promise and appear to give them something, but they will never get to verify it or know it until it is too late, and they cannot get back to us exposing us as fraud. Tat something must be something everybody absolutely need... they cannot live without... Wat is tatÂ… AhhhhhÂ…. There is a very easy solution. Just promise something after they die. In tis way, no one can find out until it is too late and no one can expose our lies ! And everyone don't want to die, so promise them a life after death to fulfil their need. Tat is how most religion work isnÂ’t it !
HmmmÂ… of course to have control over life and death, we need something more powerful than natural and human being... something supernaturalÂ… So we should invent some being, a group of being or some system whereby supernatural and unverifiable elements r added in. The crucial thing is, there must be a concept to hide it so tat is why nobody knows except the storywriter. If u talk about a god, he must hide himself so no one can know if it is true or not. Like zeus or shiva or jade emperor etcÂ… they all must hide and cannot be seen by normal public because they never exist. The rest doesnÂ’t matter. No matter how cock, how childish or how ridiculous the story is, people r gonna believe in it.
Now of course, we need to make sure we will not be eliminated by the politician and people maintaining law and order. To do tat, we must promote people to do good things. It also make things more believable because there r people who wanna choose wat to believe and not wat it appears to be more true. Good people also won't ubsurp us of our position too
To benefit ourselves with money and power in the long run, we must ensure in our teaching we make sure they have blind obedience. With blind obedience, then they will not question our teaching, even if they have a good reason to do so. The more they question, the more they will find loopholes and the more they will not believe in us. The best way is to convince them they r stupid and ignorant and need guidance. Then they will not believe even themselves or react when something is obviously wrong.
Of course tis r some of the elements needed to make a religion believable (lazy to write more) and I think people can get an idea on the message I am trying to get across. When u look at a religion, and see several characteristic, then think for a moment tat if it is just some make believe thing and tat is why they have such features. -
OR we could just google up "flying spaghetti monster".Originally posted by stupidissmart:Why donÂ’t we just play a game ? Lets imagine we wanna form a new religion and discuss wat r the necessary elements involved in it to make it believable.
Firstly, we need to attract people to believe in our religion. How to do tat ? A traditional way to make people do something is simply to use the carrot and stick approach. So believers get to have a great reward while non-believers get a big punishment.
But our religion is false, how do we give out the great reward or punishment ?
Well, a simple way is to promise and appear to give them something, but they will never get to verify it or know it until it is too late, and they cannot get back to us exposing us as fraud. Tat something must be something everybody absolutely need... they cannot live without... Wat is tatÂ… AhhhhhÂ…. There is a very easy solution. Just promise something after they die. In tis way, no one can find out until it is too late and no one can expose our lies ! And everyone don't want to die, so promise them a life after death to fulfil their need. Tat is how most religion work isnÂ’t it !
HmmmÂ… of course to have control over life and death, we need something more powerful than natural and human being... something supernaturalÂ… So we should invent some being, a group of being or some system whereby supernatural and unverifiable elements r added in. The crucial thing is, there must be a concept to hide it so tat is why nobody knows except the storywriter. If u talk about a god, he must hide himself so no one can know if it is true or not. Like zeus or shiva or jade emperor etcÂ… they all must hide and cannot be seen by normal public because they never exist. The rest doesnÂ’t matter. No matter how cock, how childish or how ridiculous the story is, people r gonna believe in it.
Now of course, we need to make sure we will not be eliminated by the politician and people maintaining law and order. To do tat, we must promote people to do good things. It also make things more believable because there r people who wanna choose wat to believe and not wat it appears to be more true. Good people also won't ubsurp us of our position too
To benefit ourselves with money and power in the long run, we must ensure in our teaching we make sure they have blind obedience. With blind obedience, then they will not question our teaching, even if they have a good reason to do so. The more they question, the more they will find loopholes and the more they will not believe in us. The best way is to convince them they r stupid and ignorant and need guidance. Then they will not believe even themselves or react when something is obviously wrong.
Of course tis r some of the elements needed to make a religion believable (lazy to write more) and I think people can get an idea on the message I am trying to get across. When u look at a religion, and see several characteristic, then think for a moment tat if it is just some make believe thing and tat is why they have such features. -
Don't be so sure about this. I was actually searching around the internet for big wars started by Buddism. Can't seem to find any! Frankly I think it's a fantastic feat.Originally posted by Alvin.Yeoh:To the threadstarter, religion is not the solution to our social ills. I ask you this, what is the cause of the crusades? Religion. What the is the cause of terrorism? Religion. So you telling me you want religion to solve our social ills? I'm not saying science is the solution either but religion sure as hell ain't one.
As for science, I remember the Gundam Seed Destiny movie where the leader visioned to destroy the desire genes in each and everyone and thus create a harmonious world! Even then, I wonder life may just find a way around. -
there r people who had twisted buddhism and supporting wars. Look at buddhism in japan and how they support Imperial forces in WW2 and tibetan buddhism in civil wars.
However these r more small scale and less involved than downright slaughtering in crusades... -
as a scientist, they will be obliged to question the idea of creationism, eg who creates the creator of this universe, etcOriginally posted by Phorum Noob:No problem with that. Unless they start to claim that the Creationism idea is Scientific fact.
it results in the scientist being labelled as blasphemous in some petty-minded religions -
I also wonder is man who purposely distort religion for their purpose the evil or is religion the evil? Nonetheless, for the centuries that have passed, buddhism is one religion that can stand strong against the evilness of man.Originally posted by stupidissmart:there r people who had twisted buddhism and supporting wars. Look at buddhism in japan and how they support Imperial forces in WW2 and tibetan buddhism in civil wars.
However these r more small scale and less involved than downright slaughtering in crusades...
Science is actually a much worst tool than religion for evil man. That I believe is one strong reason why even genius scientists look up to religion. -
religion is a psychological tool while science gives us the physical tools. you use religion to brainwash the peeps and science to give them weapons.Originally posted by apples:I also wonder is man who purposely distort religion for their purpose the evil or is religion the evil? Nonetheless, for the centuries that have passed, buddhism is one religion that can stand strong against the evilness of man.
Science is actually a much worst tool than religion for evil man. That I believe is one strong reason why even genius scientists look up to religion.
i would say religion is a much more dangerous tool as extremists (think Osama, Pope, clerics) could incite their believers and instil hatred. science is merely a neutral tool, just like a knife could be used for handicraft or cooking instead of stabbing.
i don't think scientists look up to religion, most of them see religion as a topic of social science worth studying.
i do notice that intellects are usually less humane. -
I think we can agree that this 2 tools created by man ourselves are very powerful tools. Between the 2, I would say science is more powerful. Since there are "evil" man and "good" man, these tools tend to used in both destructive ways and constructive ways.Originally posted by Jamie Zawinski:religion is a psychological tool while science gives us the physical tools. you use religion to brainwash the peeps and science to give them weapons.
i would say religion is a much more dangerous tool as extremists (think Osama, Pope, clerics) could incite their believers and instil hatred. science is merely a neutral tool, just like a knife could be used for handicraft or cooking instead of stabbing.
i don't think scientists look up to religion, most of them see religion as a topic of social science worth studying.
i do notice that intellects are usually less humane.
With religion, we often see it being used for starting war. With science, we often see it being used in war. However, science is used in another war which we less notice and that is the economic war. That economic war is actually going to lead man to our doom...
Also, if ever world war 3 is started, science is guaranteed to put man back to stoneage!
Simply, because science is the more powerful tool, science is the really the greater devil. -
I met a creationist "scientist" last year.
Guillermo Gonzalez came to Singapore last year to give a talk together with Jay Richards (who isn't a scientist).
The talk was sponsored by rzim if I recall correctly. -
believing in god and believing in creationism are two different things... i don't think a true scientist can really do the latter with the overwhelming evidence on so many fronts for evolution.Originally posted by Phaze:I met a creationist "scientist" last year.
Guillermo Gonzalez came to Singapore last year to give a talk together with Jay Richards (who isn't a scientist).
The talk was sponsored by rzim if I recall correctly.
if a scientist isn't willing to accept evolution - something shown so clearly even before our eyes - on religious grounds how many other opportunities for scientific discovery would he/she miss on the grounds of religious belief? -
Eh. Stop bashing science.
Science is a fundamental study of understanding the natural world through the use of scientific method...
Applied science is the application of science into technology that we use physically in this world - aka your neutral tools.
If you study biology, that's science. If you study biotechnology, that's applied science. There's a difference.
Knowing the truth isn't exactly a "greater devil". How so? Is it really a sin to know more? Then should i just be a "follower" like everyone else?
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everything starts with the big bang
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Knowing is one thing and like you said application is the another. Look around yourself and see how science is used. It is used primarily to feed our desire and insecurity. To put it to more awfully, man's greed and fear.Originally posted by AugoeideS:Eh. Stop bashing science.
Science is a fundamental study of understanding the natural world through the use of scientific method...
Applied science is the application of science into technology that we use physically in this world - aka your neutral tools.
If you study biology, that's science. If you study biotechnology, that's applied science. There's a difference.
Knowing the truth isn't exactly a "greater devil". How so? Is it really a sin to know more? Then should i just be a "follower" like everyone else?
Science manifest man's characteristics terribly. It is about power. To become stronger and eliminate threats. It is about materialism to satisfy our ego for beauty. Great scientist knows the importance of religion because they understand that science without religion is lame.
There is a reason why Buddhism has been able to stand the test of time... but I'll leave it at here for the moment...