Serious scientist cannot believe in divine creator?
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Knowing is one thing and like you said application is the another. Look around yourself and see how science is used. It is used primarily to feed our desire and insecurity. To put it to more awfully, man's greed and fear.
If there is the case, then go and live in the forest and practise buddhism lor..
Science manifest man's characteristics terribly. It is about power. To become stronger and eliminate threats. It is about materialism to satisfy our ego for beauty. Great scientist knows the importance of religion because they understand that science without religion is lame.
There is a reason why Buddhism has been able to stand the test of time... but I'll leave it at here for the moment...
without science, mankind may not even be able to survive -
Are you a pessimistic by nature?Originally posted by apples:Knowing is one thing and like you said application is the another. Look around yourself and see how science is used. It is used primarily to feed our desire and insecurity. To put it to more awfully, man's greed and fear.
Science manifest man's characteristics terribly. It is about power. To become stronger and eliminate threats. It is about materialism to satisfy our ego for beauty. Great scientist knows the importance of religion because they understand that science without religion is lame.
There is a reason why Buddhism has been able to stand the test of time... but I'll leave it at here for the moment...
That's pretty subjective for you - have you account for all the benefits applied science has brought for us? Do you take transports at all? Do you on lightings at night? Do you visit the doctor for allopathic treatment when you're sick? Say hello to science and applied science.
"Great scientists knows the importance of religion" - uh-huh, of course we do because religion is a main hindrance to scientific progression.
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An Einstein quote. I love it.Originally posted by apples:Knowing is one thing and like you said application is the another. Look around yourself and see how science is used. It is used primarily to feed our desire and insecurity. To put it to more awfully, man's greed and fear.
Science manifest man's characteristics terribly. It is about power. To become stronger and eliminate threats. It is about materialism to satisfy our ego for beauty. Great scientist knows the importance of religion because they understand that science without religion is lame.
There is a reason why Buddhism has been able to stand the test of time... but I'll leave it at here for the moment...
We could go into an endless discussion of whether Einstein was a religious man and what he meant by the word "God"
But ultimately, the religious beliefs of the scientist does not really matter as long as he does not allow those beliefs to affect his science. The scientist must let the evidence shape his theories, not let his theories color his evidence.
A scientist can perform science, and still have his belief that "God made it that way". At the same time, he realizes that "God made it that way" is not a scientific theory and is not a falsifiable hypothesis.
Einstein was a great man, but even he had his moments of weakness. He was initially very resistant to quantum theory because he had difficulty accepting the probabilistic nature of quantum theory. -
"Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it." - Niels BohrOriginally posted by Phaze:Einstein was a great man, but even he had his moments of weakness. He was initially very resistant to quantum theory because he had difficulty accepting the probabilistic nature of quantum theory.
Molecular world is so much different! -
So as always, the devil is in the details.
You can be a serious scientists and believe in a deistic god.
You can be a serious scientist and accept scientific research as a means of understanding god.
You could be considered a serious scientist in a specific field, if that field does not conflict with your religious beliefs. Though I would argue that you are not a serious scientist.
But by and large, you cannot be a serious scientist if you believe that the Bible is the literal, infallible word of god.
You cannot be a serious scientist if you believe that Adam and Eve really existed and lived in the Garden of Eden.
You cannot be a serious scientist if you believe that god killed almost all living things on the earth with a world wide flood.
You cannot be a serious scientist if you believe that rainbows were created as a reminder of god's covenant. -
And not to mention, you cannot be a serious Scientist if you believe that a Bat is a type of bird as stated in the Bible...
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Those violence/wars weren't inspired directly by their religion inspite that many of the Japanese were Buddhists.Originally posted by stupidissmart:there r people who had twisted buddhism and supporting wars. Look at buddhism in japan and how they support Imperial forces in WW2 and tibetan buddhism in civil wars.
However these r more small scale and less involved than downright slaughtering in crusades...
A lot of times, people may be believing in conflicting things such as Science and certain 'religious claims'..
However, fundimentalistic literal interpretation of certain religious text have lead DIRECTLY to much suffering and pain. Or certain religion can be used to gain support of other blind non-thinking believers to justify a war.
Religion isn't bad as long as the people don't get too over religious and believe everything that their religious leaders tells them without thinking. Some people needs religion to overcome their fear of permanent death, i.e. an end to the self after their deaths. Hence I can see why religion is necessary to some. I however prefer to face reality.
There are many things that we don't know. It is only honest that we admit our ignorance and say that we don't know instead of jumping into believe. Doubt first, and believe only when rational evidence comes is the way of science AKA skepticism. Otherwise, we can believe in almost anything that is 'possible' (even when it is improbable).
There was once a Nobel winning Physicist who said "Without religion, we have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. But it is only with religion that good people does bad things."...or something to that effect.
Though to the unbelievers like me, religion is simply a complete waste of time. -
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I was an atheist even till adulthood but has gradually changed to see importance in religion. I am more of optimistic person than pessimist. I am also more scientific than religious in many ways because like you I have desire and fear. I have written comments to illustrate to ppl why religion is not pure nonsense.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If there is the case, then go and live in the forest and practise buddhism lor..
without science, mankind may not even be able to survive
I would also tend to believe man will just become extinct at some time on earth and probably with science. It is not important to most of the selfish man, because it will not happen in his time. Some others realise it, but then science is too good a tool not to continue to use in the destructive way. -
That's such an easily refuted statement. If that's the Physicist's theorem, it would just take 1 statement to proof it wrong.Originally posted by Phorum Noob:There was once a Nobel winning Physicist who said "Without religion, we have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. But it is only with religion that good people does bad things."...or something to that effect. -
"Physicist's theorem" << What are you talking about?Originally posted by apples:That's such an easily refuted statement. If that's the Physicist's theorem, it would just take 1 statement to proof it wrong.
Stop taking things too literally and read betwee the lines.
That statement was not meant as an Absolute 'Theorem' but more as an expression of the fact that with religion, there are people (blind believers) who can be manupilated to do evil things; such as cutting people's head off with a knife. Of course there are other motivations besides religion that could do that too.
Unreason is a dangerous thing. -
Wah another one.
early morning engage in flame war. -
From "Conan the Barbarian"Originally posted by apples:I think we can agree that this 2 tools created by man ourselves are very powerful tools. Between the 2, I would say science is more powerful. Since there are "evil" man and "good" man, these tools tend to used in both destructive ways and constructive ways.
With religion, we often see it being used for starting war. With science, we often see it being used in war. However, science is used in another war which we less notice and that is the economic war. That economic war is actually going to lead man to our doom...
Also, if ever world war 3 is started, science is guaranteed to put man back to stoneage!
Simply, because science is the more powerful tool, science is the really the greater devil.
Thulsa Doom: Ah. It must have been when I was younger. There was a time, boy, when I searched for steel, when steel meant more to me than gold or jewels.
Conan: The riddle... of steel.
Thulsa Doom: Yes! You know what it is, don't you boy? Shall I tell you? It's the least I can do. Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you. There, on the rocks; a beautiful girl. Come to me, my child...
Thulsa Doom: [coaxes the girl to jump to her death]
Thulsa Doom: That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart, I gave you this! Such a waste. Contemplate this on the tree of woe. Crucify him! -
How dare you say it's a flame war? Are you stupid? Did you not get in line when god was handing out brains? It's just a discussion! It cannot be even remotely considered a flame war! I don't think you would recognize a flame war if it squatted over you and crapped in your mouth!Originally posted by seotiblizzard:Wah another one.
early morning engage in flame war. -
That's a good one..which iteration of Conan is that from? Robert E Howard's original series? The cartoon? Or the current comic series written by Kurt Busiek?Originally posted by Phaze:From "Conan the Barbarian"
Thulsa Doom: Ah. It must have been when I was younger. There was a time, boy, when I searched for steel, when steel meant more to me than gold or jewels.
Conan: The riddle... of steel.
Thulsa Doom: Yes! You know what it is, don't you boy? Shall I tell you? It's the least I can do. Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you. There, on the rocks; a beautiful girl. Come to me, my child...
Thulsa Doom: [coaxes the girl to jump to her death]
Thulsa Doom: That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart, I gave you this! Such a waste. Contemplate this on the tree of woe. Crucify him! -
It's from the original Conan the Barbarian movie starring Arhnold.Originally posted by Demonight:That's a good one..which iteration of Conan is that from? Robert E Howard's original series? The cartoon? Or the current comic series written by Kurt Busiek? -
"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things as a meaningful unity" - Albert Einstein
“Christianity has strong belief of god exist and even came down to earth with such a long history dated all the way back to 1st bc hence expected In cosmic religion for the future: it closed up the gap between sinner and god therefore avoid being a aggressive religion and it all about the moral support from Christ” – IATaitazyLL
“Freethinker has a strong sense of logical by applying theory and formulae-tion and therefore create a illusion that god is unnessary however it is not true but freethinker
Is the best religion to start at young to have scientific brain and not to be superstitious as a result it will be a comsic religion for the future for people to advance even more in terms of technology”- Siangsini Jiat
Therefore when we combine these 3 religion
We get R3R
Formal name is Pchiatry -
I was an atheist even till adulthood but has gradually changed to see importance in religion. I am more of optimistic person than pessimist. I am also more scientific than religious in many ways because like you I have desire and fear. I have written comments to illustrate to ppl why religion is not pure nonsense.
Without science, men r nothing more than monkeys And there is no such things as religion since without science, no one can write, or invent paper and pen and no one can communicate with others, making religion non existence.
And from a macro level, how have religion helped mankind ? Overall it may do more harm than help It segregate people, make them easily become a mob crowd and they feel very strongly and emotionally when something happened to their clan.I would also tend to believe man will just become extinct at some time on earth and probably with science. It is not important to most of the selfish man, because it will not happen in his time. Some others realise it, but then science is too good a tool not to continue to use in the destructive way.
If u r the emperor of the world, wat will u do ? Stop all usage of science and we act like monkeys ? I do not know if men will dissappear with science, but there is no men without science. -
I don't understand your argument. You seem to agree that science is just a tool. But you seem to think that science, which is nothing more than a way to learn about the world around us, is a terrible thing.Originally posted by apples:I was an atheist even till adulthood but has gradually changed to see importance in religion. I am more of optimistic person than pessimist. I am also more scientific than religious in many ways because like you I have desire and fear. I have written comments to illustrate to ppl why religion is not pure nonsense.
I would also tend to believe man will just become extinct at some time on earth and probably with science. It is not important to most of the selfish man, because it will not happen in his time. Some others realise it, but then science is too good a tool not to continue to use in the destructive way.
But is the tool responsible or the hand that wields it?
Science, is neither good nor bad. We, as humans, make moral judgments on how it is used just as money is not the root of all evil but we make a moral judgment that it is the love of money that is the root of all evil (this is just an example, I don't necessarily agree with this statement).
If there's anything that will bring about the end of the world, it is religion. Religion is not rational. It would be difficult for a mother to kill her own child, but if you make her believe her child is possessed by the devil, it becomes much easier for the mother to do so.
Religion makes it easier for people to kill themselves thinking that they will be rewarded in the afterlife.
Religion is why people fight over a patch of desert that no one would be interested in except that they believe it is their holy land. -
Religion demands people to believe in certain claims without proof. I.e. the bible says so.
Science requires a skeptical mind, where there's no room for ABSOLUTE believe in anything. Even a well deviced model to describe the world around us can only be taken as a good approximation to the universe. THere's always a chance that in future, a new and more precise model will be developed. Nothing is static, and final. What seems to be right might one day be replaced with another better theory that gives us an even deeper insight of our world. I seriously doubt the questions would ever end. There's always new and harder questions to answer as we peel off the layers of an infinitely thick reality.
Without Science, we'd still be living in a world of ignorance.
We'd still be living in a dark age where people are burnt alive for being suspected as witches, people praying for the love ones to heal or pay money to faith healers for their illness, beliving that natural disasters are a work of some angry powerful beings,...etc -
Flame on mahOriginally posted by seotiblizzard:Wah another one.
early morning engage in flame war. -
Flame? Where???
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Those are indeed inconsistencies in my agrument.Originally posted by Phaze:I don't understand your argument. You seem to agree that science is just a tool. But you seem to think that science, which is nothing more than a way to learn about the world around us, is a terrible thing.
But is the tool responsible or the hand that wields it?
Science, is neither good nor bad. We, as humans, make moral judgments on how it is used just as money is not the root of all evil but we make a moral judgment that it is the love of money that is the root of all evil (this is just an example, I don't necessarily agree with this statement).
You see, most of you have posted to say about the bad things about religion when both religion and science are really created and used by man. Using the same manner as how you concluded that religion was bad, I had concluded science is just as bad and possibly worst.
In reality, science and religion are just tools created by man; science being the more powerful of the 2. The problem was always how man try to bend and use these tools for satisfying their greed and fear. Take away science and religion and you will still see these 2 characteristics of man still exhibited using other ways, but in much lesser magnitudes.
In my course of life, I realise that chasing after science is often an endless race to satisfy my own insatiable greed and fear. In fact, it results in more unhappiness. Chasing after the knowledge of science without any purpose also felt very empty. All living things somehow need a purpose to live and religion attempts to do that. Science just doesn't explain why.
More often than not, we simply use science to grow and manifest our greed and fear and think of the world as simply survival of the fittest. Religion attempts to curb this characteristics and it will make a person a more happy and satisfied. It also makes a person a more loving and harmonious person. This is how I understood when I read the Einstein quote "Science without religion is lame". The other part of Einstein's quote "Religion without Science is blind" is easier understood and I shall not elaborate.
We are lucky to have these 2 tools, science and religion. How you use it is a matter of choice and a realisation of oneself. All of us have the ability to do little things and a few of us have the ability to do great things. And for the latter, I do wish you will have the courage to help shape science and religion to build a more peaceful and loving world. -
I find your reasoning a bit funny..
U think religion is man made. However u still believe in it and think it gives u a purpose in life. If religion is man made, then it is false and the things it told u r wrong. Why believe the purpose it promise when it is wrong ?
Secondly, purpose in life do not have to come from religion If I am a scientist, I will find purpose in researching science when it can help people or when it can make my names be remembered. As for the purpose in life, I find it to be simply finding happiness, which has nothing to do with religion. I do the things I enjoy and tat bring me happiness. I work hard so I can worry less about money and tat will give me happiness. U don't need religion. U just need a change of attitude. U r master of your own life.
In fact I think religion give a very depressing purpose in life. Your life is controlled at a being which u can never understand. If he wanna make u a loser filled with pain, no matter how hard u try u r always a loser and always in pain. His plans for u is simply to become his obedient slave forever or be tortured forever.
About morals and helping others, people without religion do help out others too and r loving too. They do it because they know wat is like to be living in society and do good deeds because they sincerely wanna hep others. People in religion do good deeds simply because they expect a reward. -
if believe in religion then go ahead
if not then dun believe it
why keep a big fuss over it?