Service Staff Who Can Only Speak Chinese
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Originally posted by 123aswss:
Its not like the newly arrived PRC guys aren't making an effort to speak English. I'm sure most of them are. As I said before, this whole issue is blown out of proportions. I've interacted with some Chinese who have refused to speak mandarin to me because they wanted to learn English. Of course there are the black sheeps but that cannot be a reason to stereotype a whole group of people, often with denigratory and xenophobic remarks, something that is happening alarmingly recently and probably by people with vested interests other than that of service standards.
And so what if the impression given to visitors is that some service staff can't speak good English? That our nation suck? Why are we so worried about how we come off to others? And why should good English be a criteria to giving a good impression to others? If we want authencity, perhaps Singlish should be a better language to use. I don't see the Japanese forcing their service staff to learn English in order to give a good impression to others. I don't see the French doing that. I don't see the Germans doing that. I only see countries who have been colonised by the British before doing that. India, Malaysia, Singapore, etc.. Its time we leave our colonial baggages behind.
The problem is not everyone who stays in Singapore understands Mandarin. If everyone who stays here is Chinese then I accept your viewpoint that speaking Mandarin to everyone and not learning any other language might be possible. The reason why the French can just speak French all the time is because everyone there speaks in that language except tourists. Same goes with Japanese.
But this happens to be a multi-racial country whose national language does not happen to be Mandarin.
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Originally posted by rainee:
The problem is not everyone who stays in Singapore understands Mandarin. If everyone who stays here is Chinese then I accept your viewpoint that speaking Mandarin to everyone and not learning any other language might be possible. The reason why the French can just speak French all the time is because everyone there speaks in that language except tourists. Same goes with Japanese.
But this happens to be a multi-racial country whose national language does not happen to be Mandarin.
I'm afraid you have misunderstood my post. I did not say that it is perfectly acceptable for every service staff to speak mandarin.In my previous post, I have 2 points.
The first points out that the situation of service staff speaking only mandarin is blown out of proportion.
The second is replying to those who feel that we may give a bad impression to others if we speak any language other than perfect Queen's English. Note that I stated Singlish rather than mandarin in my second paragraph.
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It's just that the race-make up of Singapore has it that the majority are Chinese. Worse, see how you're treated at Swenson's or Jack's Place when you try to order a steak but can't speak English. You get scoffed at and there is really hardly scant regard for your existence even when you flail your hands about madly trying to get the waiters' attention. Being looked down upon is a feeling much worse (and felt more keenly) than being answered in a different language when I speak.
Ok, now the problem.
With the majority of the people in Singapore being Chinese (supported by statistics), a substantial number of working staff among the service crew in Singapore would obviously (or maybe not that conspicuous to some) be Chinese. If we can tolerate Indians from MaMa shops speaking in their tamil accent, then why can't we just understand that some people can't pick up English as quickly, or are just too used to speaking their own language. (We have four national languages, right?) The more-highly-educated bilinguists are more generally the office workers and those with higher spending power, hence often the consumers (and the ones complaining). And those who are less educated are left with jobs (whichever you are referring to), so with the gap in education qualifications, I am quite sure you wouldn't expect your kopitiam Aunty (even in shopping malls) to speak fluently in English like an expert linguist when you order your kopi or teh, right? We have to give in to those who are not-as-well spoken.
If everyone were indeed able to speak fluent English, then I guess Kopitiam Aunties would be left jobless. Because, those who even manage to get an education are the young.
With English being the language of commerce (ignore the fact we have four national languages now), most companies - MNCs or well-established firms, that is - would certainly train their staff to remain competitive, especially since people are already whining. But don't anyone forget, such companies who are able to recruit even foreign staff and send them for training and upgrading courses are often the ones who are located in high-end stores of VivoCity or Taka. The crowd they are essentially serving is different. So, point is, you cannot compare subjects (or objects) which serve varying crowds. Do the Kopitiam bosses or Small/Medium firm-owners have the essential budget (even with the govt's help these days) have the budget to recruit, train, and upgrade?
Unless you're the one who's going to volunteer as a sponsor, I guess we have to tolerate whatever service we are entitled to.
Besides, I don't order my Roti Prata in Chinese, and I have almost no problems in communicating. I'm sure we're not turning into a second China or anything, it's just the proportion of different races in Singapore. You wouldn't expect a Tamil to speak Chinese when learning English would do, and a China man would not even want to learn English since Chinese is fine. See the logic?
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Let's not go into our language policy here. The issue at hand is whether service staff should know basic conversational English because we are a nation that is made up of many ethnicities who speak languages in varying degrees of fluency.
Everyone got along in Pasar Singlish in the past, and simple English phrases were understood because it was what most people picked up due to ease of usage across different races.
Look at the situation closely, and you'll realise that there's a huge problem at the moment, in the service industry, where ironically, it forms the first line of contact and impression given to visitors as well.
There is nothing wrong with the language.
Problem is with the Companies that hired them.
WTF are they doing to the service industry? Don't see the effort to improve, or educate the service staff.
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Originally posted by 123aswss:
I'm afraid you have misunderstood my post. I did not say that it is perfectly acceptable for every service staff to speak mandarin.In my previous post, I have 2 points.
The first points out that the situation of service staff speaking only mandarin is blown out of proportion.
The second is replying to those who feel that we may give a bad impression to others if we speak any language other than perfect Queen's English. Note that I stated Singlish rather than mandarin in my second paragraph.
The issue is with the people employing the staff.
There is nothing wrong with speaking Mandarin or assuming that the person you spoke to can speak Mandarin. Likewise, no issue with speaking English or assuming that the person you spoke to can speak English.
The issue is "why are they showing displeasure to customers?"
Service is lacking.
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Originally posted by TTT203:
It's just that the race-make up of Singapore has it that the majority are Chinese. Worse, see how you're treated at Swenson's or Jack's Place when you try to order a steak but can't speak English. You get scoffed at and there is really hardly scant regard for your existence even when you flail your hands about madly trying to get the waiters' attention. Being looked down upon is a feeling much worse (and felt more keenly) than being answered in a different language when I speak.
Ok, now the problem.
With the majority of the people in Singapore being Chinese (supported by statistics), a substantial number of working staff among the service crew in Singapore would obviously (or maybe not that conspicuous to some) be Chinese. If we can tolerate Indians from MaMa shops speaking in their tamil accent, then why can't we just understand that some people can't pick up English as quickly, or are just too used to speaking their own language. (We have four national languages, right?) The more-highly-educated bilinguists are more generally the office workers and those with higher spending power, hence often the consumers (and the ones complaining). And those who are less educated are left with jobs (whichever you are referring to), so with the gap in education qualifications, I am quite sure you wouldn't expect your kopitiam Aunty (even in shopping malls) to speak fluently in English like an expert linguist when you order your kopi or teh, right? We have to give in to those who are not-as-well spoken.
If everyone were indeed able to speak fluent English, then I guess Kopitiam Aunties would be left jobless. Because, those who even manage to get an education are the young.
With English being the language of commerce (ignore the fact we have four national languages now), most companies - MNCs or well-established firms, that is - would certainly train their staff to remain competitive, especially since people are already whining. But don't anyone forget, such companies who are able to recruit even foreign staff and send them for training and upgrading courses are often the ones who are located in high-end stores of VivoCity or Taka. The crowd they are essentially serving is different. So, point is, you cannot compare subjects (or objects) which serve varying crowds. Do the Kopitiam bosses or Small/Medium firm-owners have the essential budget (even with the govt's help these days) have the budget to recruit, train, and upgrade?
Unless you're the one who's going to volunteer as a sponsor, I guess we have to tolerate whatever service we are entitled to.
Besides, I don't order my Roti Prata in Chinese, and I have almost no problems in communicating. I'm sure we're not turning into a second China or anything, it's just the proportion of different races in Singapore. You wouldn't expect a Tamil to speak Chinese when learning English would do, and a China man would not even want to learn English since Chinese is fine. See the logic?
Nothing is wrong in the entire concept except the small detail.
That detail is "Service".
I think you guys are shooting the wrong target.
The point from TS is "If you can't, you wil get a glare or they might even refuse to serve you."
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all we need is to adapt and adjust to the kinda of service we are getting...
and the wrong dishes served...
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Originally posted by GHoST_18:
all we need it to adapt and adjust...
and get used to the wrong dishes served...
Nah, home cooked food is still the best.
You can't blame the chef or you gotta do it yourself.
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im sorry if i asked for spaghetti and got served wanton mee...
it's all my fault for eating out or not preparing the food myself...
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What about hong kong. Will they glare at you if you do not speak cantonese? Is chinese, english acceptable?
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Originally posted by chrisbenoit:
What about hong kong. Will they glare at you if you do not speak cantonese? Is chinese, english acceptable?
I think I want to give you a chokeslam.
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
I think I want to give you a chokeslam.
Out of point, biatch. -
Originally posted by rainee:
But this happens to be a multi-racial country whose national language does not happen to be Mandarin.
FYI, Mandarin/Chinese is one of our four official national languages. The ligua franca (also the language of commerce) is however more often than not, English. -
Originally posted by GHoST_18:
all we need is to adapt and adjust to the kinda of service we are getting...
and the wrong dishes served...
And u thanks them for serving you the wrong dish by paying them an additional 10% of the total meal cost...... service charge....
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im not sure if they will gimme "extra ingredients" if i reject the wrong dish the 1st time round...
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Originally posted by GHoST_18:
im not sure if they will gimme "extra ingredients" if i reject the wrong dish the 1st time round...
dun worry lah. they won't add their milk powder into your dish one lah.
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i rather take milk powder than their spit...
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I think this topic has been done to death. But that's not going to stop me getting my 2 cents in :)
In Singapore, there are people who can't speak Mandarin, and there are people who can't speak English. So you can't please everyone, unless you hire double the staff- ones who can Speak one language, and ones who can speak the other language. Not going to happen guys.
One thing which is true though is that you do get looked down on if you can't speak English, by English speaking people. And what many Singaporeans don't realise is that that many of them who think they speak good English, are actually pretty bad.
If you read the expat sites, there are plenty of stories of Singaporeans who try to side with Caucasians because they think they are equal, both being fluent English speaking people, but the Caucasian is using all their self control to not tell the Singaporean how bad their English is.
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Originally posted by OneWithTheForce:
I think this topic has been done to death. But that's not going to stop me getting my 2 cents in :)
In Singapore, there are people who can't speak Mandarin, and there are people who can't speak English. So you can't please everyone, unless you hire double the staff- ones who can Speak one language, and ones who can speak the other language. Not going to happen guys.
One thing which is true though is that you do get looked down on if you can't speak English, by English speaking people. And what many Singaporeans don't realise is that that many of them who think they speak good English, are actually pretty bad.
If you read the expat sites, there are plenty of stories of Singaporeans who try to side with Caucasians because they think they are equal, both being fluent English speaking people, but the Caucasian is using all their self control to not tell the Singaporean how bad their English is.
I agree.
Somehow there is this group of Singaporeans who look down on people who cannot speak proper English (lots of them in the local english papers). And to think that we have been independent since 1965. I feel that these people suffer from an inferiority complex towards the Westerners. They probably still believe in the hierachy of races theory the British colonialist espoused decades ago where the colonialists are at the top, followed by natives who can speak their language and lastly by natives who can't speak English or not educated in an English medium school.
In fact, just read through some of these pages in this topic and you will see that this view of a class system is well and alive in some people in Singapore.
A lot of the comments here are not about service standards. They are simply scathing attacks on mandarin and the people using it.
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Actually the topic is not about speaking good or bad English. Most of us don't speak perfect English anyway cuz we are no UK or USA. I dunno how the discussion got moved away so far that we start talking about Queen's English.
The topic arose because many retailers choose to hire noni English speaking staff who don't demand for high salary. It's also because these foreigners REFUSE to try. If they try and they don't speak well, they still deserve respect. But these people who try represent a small percentage unfortunately. You can do the research on your own.
I have worked in service industry and have seen plenty of such myself including those who worked in my previous workplace. In my previous workplace which is a private club, the Chinese nationals spoke Mandarin even in meetings which are chaired by my ex boss who is ANGMO. The rest of us have to translate. These staff are not junior waitresses or what. They were the supervisors! Some of you kind hearted souls may give excuses for them like "Oh they work in Chinese restaurants in the club". Ya, but does that mean there will be no japanese members, no angmo, no indonesians etc patronising the restaurant. Or should we be big hearted and forgiving to these staff and deprive the non mandarin speaking customers.
If you look around, all the taxi drivers, postmen, many local blue collar workers have very low qualifications. But at least they do try to speak in English.
I'm not saying that if these chinese nationals' attitude is such, we should stop them from working in Singapore. But if they refuse to upgrade themselves, they should just restrict themselves to backend jobs like kitchen helpers, cleaners, technicians etc.
We are not asking anyone to look down on them. All we ask is to be fair to our non chinese ethnic citizens. We are also not asking them to speak Queen's English. All we ask is for them to have the required skills.
I recall saying this article in ST forum some months back. A non chinese Singaporean walked into a shop in West Mall to get a pair of sports shoes. A chinese national staff attended to her and spoke in Mandarin. The customer, with her limited knowledge of chinese words, asked if the staff could speak English. The staff said in mandarin that she couldn't. If that's the case, how was this customer going to buy the pair of sports shoes she's looking for? She ended up walking out of the shop empty handed and wrote in to ST forum. But guess what? Some "kind souls" and "saint-like individuals" (but I call them self righteous ignorant) responded to the article accusing the writer for not being sympathetic and understanding towards the chinese nationals who left them family and home to a foreign place to work. I was thinking.. Hello? To feel sorry for them, we have to compromise our service level? Are we supposed to force our non chinese ethnic groups to learn mandarin or else stop going shopping?
Please don't assume that this is just a small percentage. Do you think the 5000 plus members in the "I am Singaporean and tired of service staff who can only speak Mandarin" group voice their grievances cuz they have nothing better to do? If you really think this way and feel strongly about it, why not campaign against this group and see how many ppl support you?
I am not interested in carrying on reading this thread anymore. It's getting boring and out of topic somehow. sigh.
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Originally posted by chrisbenoit:
What about hong kong. Will they glare at you if you do not speak cantonese? Is chinese, english acceptable?
if u had been there before, yes, the service staff, even the 路边摊 uncle do understand chinese and some english despite speaking in a funny tone
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the fault is not on the staff
is the one hiring these ppl, whether got screen properly, set the right requirements, if no or not enough, got provide adequate training?
if that company dun even know wat type of staff its own business requires, i dun think i wanna trust tt company to prepare my food or sell me its products -
Originally posted by FireIce:
the fault is not on the staff
is the one hiring these ppl, whether got screen properly, set the right requirements, if no or not enough, got provide adequate training?
if that company dun even know wat type of staff its own business requires, i dun think i wanna trust tt company to prepare my food or sell me its products
This is a good point. The shop gets the employee that the boss wants to hire.What I suspect is that quite often, the employer simply wants a pretty young girl at the shop to attract business, at a low rate of pay.
The thing is, is that there's probably enough Mandarin speaking Singaporeans to get by without an English speaking staff member.
Do you think it's possible the boss (I'm guessing is Chinese Singaporean) may even not want business from Malays and Indians?
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Originally posted by OneWithTheForce:
Do you think it's possible the boss (I'm guessing is Chinese Singaporean) may even not want business from Malays and Indians?
if u are running a chinese restoran or a store selling chinese paintings, that's reasonable
if u are opening a western restoran or cafe or a general dept store or supermarket, u have to consider the customer demographics as well as whether the staff will be able to do the job properly
we are not even toking about whether they can provide GOOD service
the most basic service level is not even met -
So after so many pages, what is the solution...?
I read a few comments, some of them are justified.
But I think there are a few people here who put too much emphasis on linguistic chauvinism and social discrimination.
That is what I can see essentially.
I comb through a few pages here and I am sympathetic to non-Chinese people who have met with occasions of communication-malfunction (not wardrobe malfunction).
But I am surprised to see and feel other people who are of Chinese descent who have at least some proficiency in Mandarin but quoted unsatisfactory service connected to language inefficiency in English, and then these persons take up and cite additional reasons such as the possibility of other races being met with the same fate.
Yes this eventuality is fully justified and is a valid concern. I dont have anything to say if the ones who point this out are non-Chinese persons. In this situation, I think the solution is a learning and adoption of English by those service people. But be patient and think of "years" as a time frame because language is not easy to pick up. There is no other solution, nobody will make training, give subsidy, etc, nobody will do this, because they are semi-skilled workers, it is not like being a lawyer or accountant, or foreign university student, who must pass TOEFL or IELTS. These semi-skilled workers will never go through this. This is market forces. Nobody can fundamentally do anything about it.
Now to come back to Chinese persons who launch the majority of these complaints, why dont you stop citing other non-Chinese persons being met with the same fate as your concern. You know why? Because it smacks of disingenous high-horse riding. It is just an additional layer you cite to back up your own arguments, which is essentially individual and internal. You have your own problem and you are irritated. You have an unpleasant individual experience. So stop trying to enlarge it and elevate it and get so PC (Politically Correct) to gain yourself more credibility.
Your internal displeasure is essentially linguistic chauvinism, social discrimination, and selfishness. It has nothing to do with altruistic concerns about other races and peoples.
Why dont you be a little more patient, and maybe also hone your bilingual skills. Since you are so educated, smart, and living in a bilingual environment, while those semi-skilled workers are not coming from bilingual surrounding and have little skills, language or otherwise.
Hmm....actually if you are a Chinese person, it is not unreasonable when they communicate to you in Mandarin. Communication malfunction is regrettable, but perhaps the fault is not entirely on one party, them, but could be you..? You should have basic Mandarin knowledge, or even a rather sophisticated one. And yes, Mandarin is one of the 4 official languages and one of the 2 main languages in Singapore. Why dont you blame yourself for being even more inept than a semi-skilled worker.
My suggestion is for you to be more humble and believe in language parity. Meaning, an equality, not one which is more superior than the other, or must be used.This is the basis of your disappointment and disdain. Please think about it.