Why you should not study
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Originally posted by automator:
Here is a simple comparison between a O level graduate, diploma and degree graduate to prove that it is not worth spending so much time and money to study.
We shall take a starting pay of $1200 for O level graduate who work as Admin Assistant and give her a 1 month bonus and $100 pay increment every year.
During the 3 years that you take to get a diploma from the polytechnic you will have incureed a cost of $6000 school fees (after government subsidy) and you will have lost 3 years of income as compared to a O level graduate who works during the 3 years that you are studying,
The O level graduate who is a admin assistant will have earned this amount in the 3 years that you spend taking a diploma
1st year: $1200*13 months(including bonus)= $15 600
2nd year: $1300(assuming a $100 increment for every year that he works)*13 months= $ 16 900
3rd year: $1400 * 13 months= $18 200.
In 3 years time, she will have earned $15 600+ $16 900 + $18 200= $50 700.
And in 3 years time due to outstanding performance she got promoted to Admin Executive and given a $300 pay increment and her salary is now $1700 a month.
A fresh diploma holder starts off as a Admin Executive drawing a salary of $1700. Both of them earns the same amount of salary but the O level graduate has worked for 3 years and during this period she have earned $50 700. Plus the diploma holder have spended $6000 on her school fees.
Note that this amount has not include the cpf portion of her employer contribution during the 3 years that she has worked. If we include in this amount it will be higher.
Clearly the O level graduate is at a advantage as compared to the diploma holder.
Now we compare a degree holder who took 5 years to get a degree( 2 years in JC and 3 years in university) with the O level graduate.
Starting from the 4 year onwards, the O level graduate who is now a Admin Executive earns $1700 a month.
4th year: $1700*13 months= $22 100
5th year: $1800*13 months= $23 400
At the end of the 5 years, the O level graduate Admin Exceutive will have earned $50 700+ $22 100+ $23 400= $96 200. Her salary at that time will be $1800 a month.
The university graduate let us give her a salary of $2200 a month. Wow not bad sia she earns $400 a month more than the O level graduate.
But wait. during the 5 years that she took to get a degree, the O level graduate have already earned $96 200.
You go and calculate how long must this university graduate work than she can earn back the loss of $96 200 income that she loss in these 5 years. Not to mention, she started off with a net loss of $30 000( calculated by using $10 000 a year school fee multiply by 3 years course fee. And $10 000 a year school fee is already considered cheap. Some university courses costs more than $10 000 a year).
So after this calculation, you say whether is it worth it to take a degree or diploma anot?
If you don't think studying is necessary, den dun study. And also, dun force ur opinions on others.
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Oh yah...not to mention in times of recession,
there are also degree holders vying for jobs from O levels....for the same pay....O levels will have their jobs taken if they do not upgrade.
Eagle, that one just providing an analogy. :)
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Originally posted by automator:
I did not take in the expense of the O level and diploma holder when they are working simply because when you are studying in polytechnic or university you also incur daily expenses just that the difference is you get the money from your parents but its still your family's hard earned money.
And with foreign labour so easily obtained, many companies also can hire a foreigner degree holder who demands a lower salary than a local university graduate.
If you can give us a governmental statistic to prove ur reasoning beyond doubt, den show it. NPNT
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Automator has some good points. The 'O-level' does has a head-start in the working environment, which includes networking early and amassing CPF early, but not limited to these two examples. Of course, the he/she will have to be a diligent worker and continually upgrading his own skills.
Definitely if the 'O-level' worker is someone who simply works without upgrading himself, then most probably he won't be able to attain the advantage as proposed originally by Automator -- it takes determination and hard work indeed.
Myself, I've met numerous people with barely any higher than O-level education background (some no O cert even) who are pretty successful in what they do and they can be anywhere in mid to top level management, due to the experience that they bring to the workplace, and most bosses value these people in high regards.
If there is one obvious flaw (I don't like this word but I can't find a better term at the moment..) that these 'no-higher-than-O-level-education' possess would be their grasp, or the lack of, of the English language / Mathematical understanding. But of course, there are academic graduates who amply fill up these gaps.
This is mostly evident in SMEs and family-owned businesses whereby experience and personal character are appreciated, and where most definitely you can't compare this situation within a highly skilled work environment such as a Biotechnology/Engineering firm where a Skilled Graduate would certainly be hand-picked with instead.
Anyway, to refrain from attaining the award of longest first reply post ever in SGForums (is there any???), I suppose I wouldn't be entirely wrong to assume that, based on Automater's 'ideal' scenario, an O-level worker would have already received an insurmountable financial revenue head-start if compared to a top-level cert holder in his initial working era.
Heh. Just my prolonged 2 cents~ -
Originally posted by nightzip:
Oh yah...not to mention in times of recession,
there are also degree holders vying for jobs from O levels....for the same pay....O levels will have their jobs taken if they do not upgrade.
Eagle, that one just providing an analogy. :)
It's just to show TS that it's much more than he thinks. :)
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Originally posted by dkcx:
My expenses
Transport - $43 MRT consession. Give it $7 for the occasional bus trips i might take instead of walking due to heavy rain.Food - I can easily get a meal from $1.50-$2.50 depending on what i choose to eat so taking that into consideration would be about $150.
That makes 200 and i leave a $50 buffer for the occasional movie and other entertainment activities i spent with my friends during the weekends etc.
Nothing is assured in this world but with a good education, you have a better demand than someone without. The yearly statistics shows that uni grads have 80-90% hiring rate within the first 6 months of graduation, can you find a similar high % for O's leavers?
Insurance, property agent etc earns depending on how well they can speak and sell their products. Not everyone is capable of that. If you want to talk about such minorities, why don't you talk about uni grads that earns 5k or more a month? $2.2k for a uni undergrad is damn low. I've friends who had starting pay of at least 3k and hes not even a 1st class honours student.
How many O's friends do you have? What % of the nation do they work out to be? Do not think base on what you see and know without taking into account the national statistics even better the global statistics.
I have around 14 O level friends and 11 of them earns at least 1.7k after 3 years of working.
When I am working, I get to enjoy cpf contributions, medical benefits, 15 days annual leave, mc etc.
Do you get to enjoy these benefits as a student?
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FACT: TS IS NAIVE, IGNORANT WHO THINKS THE WORLD IS SO EASY. AND THIS ALSO CLEARLY MAKES ME THINK THAT YOU HAVE A LOW EDUCATION LEVEL BUT YOU WANNA MAKE YOURSELF SECURE SO YOU COME UP WITH SUCH 'REALITY' TO CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT OH, ACTUALLY IM BETTER OFF THAN WHATEVER PEOPLE WITH HIGHER EDUCATION. ALSO AH, FIRSTLY O LEVEL GRADS GETTING ADMIN JOB IS VERY VERY LOW CHANCE IF YOU GOT GO FIND JOBS BEFORE. SECONDLY YOUR "And in 3 years time due to outstanding performance she got promoted to Admin Executive and given a $300 pay increment and her salary is now $1700 a month." YOU MAKE PAY INCREMENT AND PROMOTION SOUNDS SO CONSTANT AND CONFIRM EVERYONE WILL GET ONE, AND WHAT MAKES YOU THINK A LOSER LIKE YOU CAN HAVE OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE ? LIKE CLOSE TO ZERO PERCENT CHANCE, BECAUSE FROM YOUR 3-YEAR-OLD WORDS I CAN TELL YOUR A LAZY PERSON. BUT ITS OK PLEASE GO FANTASIZE THAT THE WORLD IS SO EASY AND YOUR BETTER THAN THE ELITES WITH THAT PIECE OF LOW QUALIFICATION SLIP. ALSO AH THE FACT THAT YOU EVEN BOTHER OR CAN REBUTT THE FACTS THAT OTHER POSTERS HERE SAY REALLY MAKES YOU LOOK SO PATHETIC. BUT DONT WORRY, DONT STUDY BETTER RIGHT GO WORK MAC SURE GET IN FROM $3.50/HR , WORK EVERY YEAR DUE TO OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE KEEP RISING BY 25 YRS OLD I BECOME MAC MANAGER LOLOLOL
I WISH YOU SUCCESS IN YOUR SAD LIFE. -
Originally posted by nightzip:
Hi all, I would like to give my take also.
The flaw in the calculations are as follows:
1. O level's career/salary curve against time is very different from Degree's career/salary curve. i.e. one is linear and stagnant, while the other is exponentiallly up and then linear.
2. O levels will be stuck at Asst. Manager as his/her max. potential usually, whereas Degree can be promoted up to close to Director/Senior Manager, this will provide huge salary differences.
Salary structure for most organization are also exponential. e.g. Admin asst: $1200, Admin Exec: $1700, Asst Manager: $2200, Manager: $3000, Senior Manager: $4000+, Deputy Director: $6000, Director: $8000.
From this example you can see that as one climbs in rank/position the salary is exponentially increasing. Same in army also, e.g. 3SG: $2200, SSG: $3800, LTA: $3200, CPT: $5000, MAG: $6000, LTC: $8000, COL:$10,000 etc.
3. In bad times, those that get retrenched are always the rank & file personnel, i.e. production workers, assistants etc, cuz the bigger shots holds more responsibility and is considered a talent.
4. More opportunities abound when you are at a higher position/rank or with a good degree etc, people headhunt you, you get to travel overseas for meeting etc. Nobody will headhunt an admin exec/asst, or ask an admin asst to travel to Europe for conference.
Your illustration will work only if the degree holder can get promoted.
What if he doesn't get promoted and stays on as a manager only than your entire illustration of climbing to director etc will not work.
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TS, I study for a degree not because of soley for the money but because when only got a dip, I kena rejected for jobs because I was deem under qualified even though I may have the experience.
And on the point of knowledge, it is not free, the resource/data maybe free online/libray, but u still have to internalised it (and sometimes takes effort, time and really hard work) to be really consider as knowledge. Even that, u still have to know when and how to apply the knowledge. If not any ah kow, ah neow can go read medical books then declare themselve as doctors.
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Originally posted by Nihon natsu2005:
FACT: TS IS NAIVE, IGNORANT WHO THINKS THE WORLD IS SO EASY. AND THIS ALSO CLEARLY MAKES ME THINK THAT YOU HAVE A LOW EDUCATION LEVEL BUT YOU WANNA MAKE YOURSELF SECURE SO YOU COME UP WITH SUCH 'REALITY' TO CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT OH, ACTUALLY IM BETTER OFF THAN WHATEVER PEOPLE WITH HIGHER EDUCATION. ALSO AH, FIRSTLY O LEVEL GRADS GETTING ADMIN JOB IS VERY VERY LOW CHANCE IF YOU GOT GO FIND JOBS BEFORE. SECONDLY YOUR "And in 3 years time due to outstanding performance she got promoted to Admin Executive and given a $300 pay increment and her salary is now $1700 a month." YOU MAKE PAY INCREMENT AND PROMOTION SOUNDS SO CONSTANT AND CONFIRM EVERYONE WILL GET ONE, AND WHAT MAKES YOU THINK A LOSER LIKE YOU CAN HAVE OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE ? LIKE CLOSE TO ZERO PERCENT CHANCE, BECAUSE FROM YOUR 3-YEAR-OLD WORDS I CAN TELL YOUR A LAZY PERSON. BUT ITS OK PLEASE GO FANTASIZE THAT THE WORLD IS SO EASY AND YOUR BETTER THAN THE ELITES WITH THAT PIECE OF LOW QUALIFICATION SLIP.
I WISH YOU SUCCESS IN YOUR SAD LIFE.Your posts shows how naive and a loser you are.
There is no need to even bother with what a childish person like you have to say
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Let's face it. TS is a person stuck with a O levels qualifications and he's trying to make himself feel better.
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Originally posted by kenn3th:
I do not fall into the category of that bunch of 'navie' people that you have said. Speaking of which, these people are not naive and it is increasing common to see this common occurrence where people apply for O level positions in such bad times. There is no such thing as "O level positions", so technically your whole argument is flawed.In bad times yes diploma and degree holders may apply for O level positions.
When times are good, they will find a better job suitable for their education qualification and than job hope.
This is what happens when you employ over qualified people
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Originally posted by Agenda:
Let's face it. TS is a person stuck with a O levels qualifications and he's trying to make himself feel better.
Let us face it.
You don't know who I am and you are just a childish loser who have nothing better to say.
Grow up small boy
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Originally posted by automator:
I have around 14 O level friends and 11 of them earns at least 1.7k after 3 years of working.
When I am working, I get to enjoy cpf contributions, medical benefits, 15 days annual leave, mc etc.
Do you get to enjoy these benefits as a student?
And you are happy about it?
Uni students don't get cpf contributions, but
1) medical is totally free when u see the doc at NUS
2) why need MC? Can absent anytime. OTOT one.
3) why need annual leave at all?
Furthermore, it's only 8 months of study per year (4 months per sem)
But what for need cpf contributions when total earnings from tuition can be easily more than 2k?
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Originally posted by Googooboyy:
Automator has some good points. The 'O-level' does has a head-start in the working environment, which includes networking early and amassing CPF early, but not limited to these two examples. Of course, the he/she will have to be a diligent worker and continually upgrading his own skills.
Definitely if the 'O-level' worker is someone who simply works without upgrading himself, then most probably he won't be able to attain the advantage as proposed originally by Automator -- it takes determination and hard work indeed.
Myself, I've met numerous people with barely any higher than O-level education background (some no O cert even) who are pretty successful in what they do and they can be anywhere in mid to top level management, due to the experience that they bring to the workplace, and most bosses value these people in high regards.
If there is one obvious flaw (I don't like this word but I can't find a better term at the moment..) that these 'no-higher-than-O-level-education' possess would be their grasp, or the lack of, of the English language / Mathematical understanding. But of course, there are academic graduates who amply fill up these gaps.
This is mostly evident in SMEs and family-owned businesses whereby experience and personal character are appreciated, and where most definitely you can't compare this situation within a highly skilled work environment such as a Biotechnology/Engineering firm where a Skilled Graduate would certainly be hand-picked with instead.
Anyway, to refrain from attaining the award of longest first reply post ever in SGForums (is there any???), I suppose I wouldn't be entirely wrong to assume that, based on Automater's 'ideal' scenario, an O-level worker would have already received an insurmountable financial revenue head-start if compared to a top-level cert holder in his initial working era.
Heh. Just my prolonged 2 cents~
perhaps the initial years only (short term), but please take note that in terms of salary increments, career advancement, career prospects, job satisfaction, job rotation, job opportunities, job exposure...etc, diploma and degree holders will definitely have clear cut advantages in the long term...1st such example: 10% of salary increment:
O Level: 10% x $1200 = $120;
Diploma: 10% x $1800 = $180;
Degree: 10% x $2400 = $2402nd such example: job satisfaction
O Level: minimum 2 to 3 years for promotion to Diploma level job title appointment;
Diploma: once comes in, immediately get to the Diploma level job title appointment;
Degree: once comes in, immediately for some got into the Middle Management level and is already a 'new bird' superior who have the O Level and Diploma holders with working experience to work for him. -
Originally posted by Googooboyy:
Automator has some good points. The 'O-level' does has a head-start in the working environment, which includes networking early and amassing CPF early, but not limited to these two examples. Of course, the he/she will have to be a diligent worker and continually upgrading his own skills.
Definitely if the 'O-level' worker is someone who simply works without upgrading himself, then most probably he won't be able to attain the advantage as proposed originally by Automator -- it takes determination and hard work indeed.
Myself, I've met numerous people with barely any higher than O-level education background (some no O cert even) who are pretty successful in what they do and they can be anywhere in mid to top level management, due to the experience that they bring to the workplace, and most bosses value these people in high regards.
If there is one obvious flaw (I don't like this word but I can't find a better term at the moment..) that these 'no-higher-than-O-level-education' possess would be their grasp, or the lack of, of the English language / Mathematical understanding. But of course, there are academic graduates who amply fill up these gaps.
This is mostly evident in SMEs and family-owned businesses whereby experience and personal character are appreciated, and where most definitely you can't compare this situation within a highly skilled work environment such as a Biotechnology/Engineering firm where a Skilled Graduate would certainly be hand-picked with instead.
Anyway, to refrain from attaining the award of longest first reply post ever in SGForums (is there any???), I suppose I wouldn't be entirely wrong to assume that, based on Automater's 'ideal' scenario, an O-level worker would have already received an insurmountable financial revenue head-start if compared to a top-level cert holder in his initial working era.
Heh. Just my prolonged 2 cents~Yup.
1 thing I observed also is that non degree holders can do well in SME too because SME seldom have degree holders working for them as degree holders most of them will join big companies or civil service.
Anyway, you are 1 of the enlighted person in this forum.
Kids like Agenda and Nihon natsu2005 shoudl learn form you
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Originally posted by automator:
In bad times yes diploma and degree holders may apply for O level positions.
When times are good, they will find a better job suitable for their education qualification and than job hope.
This is what happens when you employ over qualified people
in another words, are you saying that degree holders find it easier to find jobs than people with only o level cert?
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Originally posted by eagle:
And you are happy about it?
Uni students don't get cpf contributions, but
1) medical is totally free when u see the doc at NUS
2) why need MC? Can absent anytime. OTOT one.
3) why need annual leave at all?
Furthermore, it's only 8 months of study per year (4 months per sem)
But what for need cpf contributions when total earnings from tuition can be easily more than 2k?
1) I see my company doctor is free too.
2) In that case you don't work better. Don't even need to take mc everyday just stay at home shake leg and wait for food and money to fall down from heaven.
3) Why need annual leave at all? Because it is paid leave. You can rest at home and get paid.
You can don't study and work at all than you can everyday shake leg at home too
If you don't want your annual leave, you can forefeit it and your boss will be very glad
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Originally posted by SexyChin:
in another words, are you saying that degree holders find it easier to find jobs than people with only o level cert?
It depends on what type of jobs they apply for.
If they apply for degree jobs it will be hard for them also because they have to compete with foreign degree holders and local degree holders too.
If they apply for diploma or O level jobs, they may or may not get it because some companies don't want to employ you as you are over qualified and most over qualified people when they find a better job they will leave.
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Wow, I'm just surprised at the acidic response that TS is getting, if anything, perhaps the flame-throwers should be getting an education in dignified forum reply techniques, because those replies are acidic, and aimed at infuriating TS, which has proved to be ineffective.
And TS, I think instead of replying with a name-calling post, like 'small boy', I think it's best to ignore them. They're just pulling you into their 'level', whatever level it is. Ignorance is bliss, right?
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Now, back to a proper discussion. Ty. -
Originally posted by octega:
TS, I study for a degree not because of soley for the money but because when only got a dip, I kena rejected for jobs because I was deem under qualified even though I may have the experience.
And on the point of knowledge, it is not free, the resource/data maybe free online/libray, but u still have to internalised it (and sometimes takes effort, time and really hard work) to be really consider as knowledge. Even that, u still have to know when and how to apply the knowledge. If not any ah kow, ah neow can go read medical books then declare themselve as doctors.
Than apply for jobs that you are qualified for with your diploma and experience lor
If you have a diploma and 10 years experience as a manager than you should apply for a manager position.
If you go and apply for a director position which needs a degree and 5 years experience as a manger, you can't tell them that although you got no degree but you got an extra 5 years experience as a manger so you want to apply for it
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knowledge is power
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Originally posted by automator:
1) I see my company doctor is free too.
2) In that case you don't work better. Don't even need to take mc everyday just stay at home shake leg and wait for food and money to fall down from heaven.
3) Why need annual leave at all? Because it is paid leave. You can rest at home and get paid.
You can don't study and work at all than you can everyday shake leg at home too
If you don't want your annual leave, you can forefeit it and your boss will be very glad
What I meant is,
being a student can enjoy those so-called benefits as well which are designed to trap you forever as an employee.
This is in reply to your question
When I am working, I get to enjoy cpf contributions, medical benefits, 15 days annual leave, mc etc.
Do you get to enjoy these benefits as a student?
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Originally posted by automator:
It depends on what type of jobs they apply for.
If they apply for degree jobs it will be hard for them also because they have to compete with foreign degree holders and local degree holders too.
If they apply for diploma or O level jobs, they may or may not get it because some companies don't want to employ you as you are over qualified and most over qualified people when they find a better job they will leave.
then jobs for O Level people are always limited than for Diploma and Degree...if not, why so many people go ask government for help and ask to upgrade their skills at www.wda.gov.sg and www.e2i.com.sg?
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Again, TS, where is ur governmental statistic...
We want to see statistics from a government body to support ur claim.