City Harvest and Ho Yeow Sun...
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faster la... i waiting for ur "statement"... lolz...Originally posted by snk86:omg........looks like when i was away............things got worst, got people use "ah pa's" name somemore...........aiyo........this is getting bad man, gotta write new homework liao lor -
wah lao, this would need a few days........haha, where is my old "homework" liao ah? can't find it.......................
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take ur time...Originally posted by snk86:wah lao, this would need a few days........haha, where is my old "homework" liao ah? can't find it.......................
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Originally posted by snk86:Originally posted by Icemoon:
Anyway why do they care about the title so much? Not that the music director is not important to the ministry. They shouldn't misuse the Pastor title, IMHO.Originally posted by Icemoon:
Anyway why do they care about the title so much? Not that the music director is not important to the ministry. They shouldn't misuse the Pastor title, IMHO.
+ In a typical church structure, there are two prominent branches of administration. One, the clergy: people who are the spiritual leaders, who had gone through a recognised course in spiritual matters, leading to, eg, doctor in divinity. Such an individual will be holding pastoral positions and may hold the title of Reverend. The second, the laity, non-theologically trained leaders who holds administrative or executive positions with the church. eg, music director.
It is not really about splitting hairs on titles. It's about the credentials of such titles. For example, if I was sick and needed a doctor. I will assume that the person who runs the nearby clinic is medically trained. His credentials are for all to see when they pass by his clinic. If I am spiritual unwell, and go to a pastor for counselling, I will assume that this pastor is theologically trained and hence not one who was conferred the title through the whims and wishes of the church concern. It is clear in through the Scripture that it is God who gives such clergical titles:
Ephesians 4:11
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers
As I last check, no record company should be giving the title of "yin-yue mu-shi" to anyone, as claimed by HYS in the early newspaper report.Originally posted by love-psychedelicohmmm.... juz wondering are u "helping" or "reminding" God to judge her???? maybe God is too old & need reminder huh?? hmmm... wat's the intention of this forum abt??? creating disunity among christians in this nation????
I am in no position to remind God to judge HYS. Neither do I wish to create disunity among Christians in this nation. In the entire chain of event that started with the red Armani dress and ending with Rev Kong Hee's excuses, City Harvest is seen to have attempted to place a spin in something that has gone obviously wrong, be it the red dress or HYS' denial.
1 Timothy 2:9-10
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
So, unless the definition has changed and new revelation has taken place, a dress such as the one HYS has worn constitutes decency and propriety?
James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Do we need to dress like the world to be in the world.
John 18:33-37
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
If our Lord can admit to his position, in face of opposition, without giving excuses, knowing He will be crucified, can we expect less from ourselves.
Matthew 26:69-70
Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said.
But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
Or are we going to behave like Peter? To deny one's clergical title is tantamount to betrayal one's faith. Do bear in the mind that HYS' clergical title is real, as can be seen from the various links that I had provided earlier.
I have not accused anyone of anything. So far all I have are questions. These questions are important in understanding the teaching as well as administration of CHC. In spite of the rhetorics that had taken place, the answers still evade us.
Have a great day and God Bless.... -
wa... u went through so much to quote... gd job...
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repent for saying what i've said??? convict and tell me why i have to do so when there're people sowing hatred, disunity, selfishness, unbalanced point of view, anti-christ sentiments etc etc in this forum or more specifically in this thread and other related ones?
you guys can say all you want. my focus is on God and if you're a
believer, do likewise and think abt all the time you can spend more wisely on other things than to blar over here.
i've said my piece. And if you're not happy abt it, so be it. whether i'm a chc member or not, its not important. the fact still remains that all this talk is pointless and only serves to de-focus us.
if you think HYS will stop in anyway, then it is not going to happen.
check all your heart....the condition of your heart is not right and certainly there is a thin line between good and evil in the end times. still pst sun is a pst and has been appointed by God to be one. you've openly challenged one of God's servant in this manner...just remember the principle of God in sowing and reaping doesn't change simply b'cos that is the truth and nothing but the whole truth. don't you read that in the old testament that people get punished just for disobeying, speaking against the servant of God. or is it too chim for you??
if you're out to sow discord among the Christian faith in singapore, let it be known that my God will fight this battle for us. i for one believe that no weapon formed will be against us for God will be for us.
i will endeavour to grow my church stronger and bigger till His kingdom come. let it be known that God is faithful if we're faithful to His calling. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
blessing in the name of the Lord while opening critising the servant of God??? irony..... I am in no position to remind God to judge HYS. Neither do I wish to create disunity among Christians in this nation. In the entire chain of event that started with the red Armani dress and ending with Rev Kong Hee's excuses, City Harvest is seen to have attempted to place a spin in something that has gone obviously wrong, be it the red dress or HYS' denial.
1 Timothy 2:9-10
I also want women to dress modestly, with [b]decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
So, unless the definition has changed and new revelation has taken place, a dress such as the one HYS has worn constitutes decency and propriety?
James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
Do we need to dress like the world to be in the world.
John 18:33-37
Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
If our Lord can admit to his position, in face of opposition, without giving excuses, knowing He will be crucified, can we expect less from ourselves.
Matthew 26:69-70
Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said.
But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
Or are we going to behave like Peter? To deny one's clergical title is tantamount to betrayal one's faith. Do bear in the mind that HYS' clergical title is real, as can be seen from the various links that I had provided earlier. I have not accused anyone of anything. So far all I have are questions. These questions are important in understanding the teaching as well as administration of CHC. In spite of the rhetorics that had taken place, the answers still evade us.
Have a great day and God Bless....[/b] -
I'm more and more inclined to think that tiggersgd is a charismaticOriginally posted by tiggersgd:if you're out to sow discord among the Christian faith in singapore, let it be known that my God will fight this battle for us. i for one believe that no weapon formed will be against us for God will be for us. -
No one's asking you to repent! You're misinterpreting what people are saying just like how you're misinterpreting the bible. No one is sowing hatred, disunity or anti-Christ sentiments here! I really don't know where you're getting that from! This is an open discussion about HYS and her misuse of religion/authority in the pursue of her career. This is not a discussion about God!Originally posted by tiggersgd:repent for saying what i've said??? convict and tell me why i have to do so when there're people sowing hatred, disunity, selfishness, unbalanced point of view, anti-christ sentiments etc etc in this forum or more specifically in this thread and other related ones?you guys can say all you want. my focus is on God and if you're a
I understand where you're coming from. You just want to show your support for your fellow churchmate and somehow, being blind and deaf to criticism seems to work for you. I don't know if you come from a mission school but when you don't do well in school and your teacher writes in your report book 'Can pay more attention in class'...is she showing disrespect to God for not praising His child? Praise and criticism is part and parcel of life. If you do well, people will naturally agree with you and praise you. If you're at fault, then you should accept the criticisms and learn from your mistakes...not insist on carrying on the mistake and justifying it. People judge all the time-- I'm not saying it's right, but it's human. If you can learn from it and become a better person, why not?
believer, do likewise and think abt all the time you can spend more wisely on other things than to blar over here.
Well, then let's pray she becomes a better person through this. Most importantly if she intends to remain as a popstar, let's pray she becomes a better singer and gain the credibility she claims.
if you think HYS will stop in anyway, then it is not going to happen..
Likewise to you.
check all your heart....the condition of your heart is not right and certainly there is a thin line between good and evil in the end times.
Sigh...now she's a pastor again? My, so easy to become pastor? From my knowledge it takes years of studies to become a pastor, but she seems to uptake and offtake her duties with the snap of her fingers...
still pst sun is a pst and has been appointed by God to be one. you've openly challenged one of God's servant in this manner...
You got that right!
if you're out to sow discord among the Christian faith in singapore, let it be known that my God will fight this battle for us. i for one believe that no weapon formed will be against us for God will be for us.
If you do it the right way, AMEN!
i will endeavour to grow my church stronger and bigger till His kingdom come. let it be known that God is faithful if we're faithful to His calling. -
Let's just say most people are speculating how the money got there in the first place...Originally posted by weidev:wa then HYS is earning truckloads of money lor... wow...
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To tiggersgd:
repent for saying what i've said??? convict and tell me why i have to do so when there're people sowing hatred, disunity, selfishness, unbalanced point of view, anti-christ sentiments etc etc in this forum or more specifically in this thread and other related ones?
My reply... ummm Unbalanced point of view? Please go ahead and balance it. All you have offered so far is a series of emotive histronics that has not answer anything at all. Anyone can scream about anti-Christian sentiments being sowed, so low cut red dress and denial about being a pastor is being Christian??? Really, really strange stance.
you guys can say all you want. my focus is on God and if you're a
believer, do likewise and think abt all the time you can spend more wisely on other things than to blar over here.
My reply... Anyone can say they are focused on God, perhaps you may wish (at a point in time where you are less agitated) to relook at the verse I'd quoted and see if you are really, really focused.
i've said my piece. And if you're not happy abt it, so be it. whether i'm a chc member or not, its not important. the fact still remains that all this talk is pointless and only serves to de-focus us.
If you'd said your piece, stay out of this forum. Offer constructive points, not condemnation. I have not condemned anyone, all I have stated are for public viewing, either through the press or through the CHC website. What else do you have to offer?
if you think HYS will stop in anyway, then it is not going to happen.
I have never envisioned that HYS will stop. That is not my charter.
check all your heart....the condition of your heart is not right and certainly there is a thin line between good and evil in the end times. still pst sun is a pst and has been appointed by God to be one. you've openly challenged one of God's servant in this manner...just remember the principle of God in sowing and reaping doesn't change simply b'cos that is the truth and nothing but the whole truth. don't you read that in the old testament that people get punished just for disobeying, speaking against the servant of God. or is it too chim for you??
Who is really the servant of God remains to be seen. I am but a sinner in God's eye. If God chooses to punish me for anything that I have done, I will with a contrite heart say, thy will be done.
It is so strange to hide behind the facade of "Servant of God" and don't anyone challenge this facade.
You have talk about the truth. Pilate said, "what is the truth?". The truth, herein, is one according to CHC.
if you're out to sow discord among the Christian faith in singapore, let it be known that my God will fight this battle for us. i for one believe that no weapon formed will be against us for God will be for us.
Don't pick on me only, I have not commented on issues that are opinions: voice quality, age of HYS, rigging of popularity polls, cutesy level of HYS etc. I don't care about these. I care about her acts, her statements, her church's statements and her husband's statements. If you don't have anything constructive and factual to contribute to this forum, stay out.
i will endeavour to grow my church stronger and bigger till His kingdom come. let it be known that God is faithful if we're faithful to His calling.
Buy more HYS CDs, good for you but I don't really care. -
repent for saying what i've said??? convict and tell me why i have to do so when there're people sowing hatred, disunity, selfishness, unbalanced point of view, anti-christ sentiments etc etc in this forum or more specifically in this thread and other related ones?
Why are you comparing yourself with others? Repentence should be between you and God. Your tone is reminiscent of non-believers who say "believe in this god? convince me and tell me why I have to do so when there're christians who are selfish, bigoted(no heaven for non-christians), sowing hatred (my god is bigger than your god?), dress indecently etc"
you guys can say all you want. my focus is on God and if you're a
believer, do likewise and think abt all the time you can spend more wisely on other things than to blar over here.
There're people, if their focus is not on God, they'll just fark care everything and let christianity get taken over by materialism etc. If they're not concerned about the path that the religion is taking, probably they will not have such strong sentiment.
i've said my piece. And if you're not happy abt it, so be it. whether i'm a chc member or not, its not important. the fact still remains that all this talk is pointless and only serves to de-focus us.
It's debatable which side is de-focused or has already been defocused here.
if you think HYS will stop in anyway, then it is not going to happen.
Then we really hope what she's doing is "right".
check all your heart....the condition of your heart is not right and certainly there is a thin line between good and evil in the end times.
It's mentioned before that near the end times, there'll be bad people masquerading as good people. Excuse me, but my eschatology knowledge is a bit weak, so cannot quote the verses that support my statement.
I think it's not too good to judge the condition in people's heart. It's something unseen after all.
still pst sun is a pst and has been appointed by God to be one. you've openly challenged one of God's servant in this manner.
How do you define "appointed"? For sure, God did not come down and appoint his pope, cardinals, archbishop, bishops, pastors etc.
I think CHC also kinda mentioned that her pastor title is like a honorific one, so she was not really ordained.
don't you read that in the old testament that people get punished just for disobeying, speaking against the servant of God. or is it too chim for you??
I digress a bit. May I ask in this present day and age when you believe that the new covenant supersede the old (correct me if I'm wrong), and that christians are justified before God, how are christians still punished? The only exception is probably blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, this being recorded in the NT, but we're not discussing this now.
if you're out to sow discord among the Christian faith in singapore, let it be known that my God will fight this battle for us.
Ya ya ... the typical "my God is bigger than your god" kind of people. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:How do you define "appointed"? For sure, God did not come down and appoint his pope, cardinals, archbishop, bishops, pastors etc.
I think CHC also kinda mentioned that her pastor title is like a honorific one, so she was not really ordained. The "appointment" thing comes from the book of Ephesians.... Kind of like the individual receives a "calling" to be a servant of God.
It is still extremely debatable on whether the Pastor title is really honorific or not. If a lay-person takes on spiritual responsibility within a church, the structure like CHC can call this individual a pastor, regardless on whether this individual has done any theological study. However if a person carries the title of Reverend (in which case, HYS has one), the pastor title is more or less cast in stone. Problem here, as I'd mentioned previously, is the origin of her theological background. Nowhere in the CHC websites mentions her credentials. Rev Kong has a long list, much like a CV in his personal page. HYS? ZELO, NADA, ZILCH! -
How does one get the Reverend title?Originally posted by Chin Eng:However if a person carries the title of Reverend (in which case, HYS has one), the pastor title is more or less cast in stone. Problem here, as I'd mentioned previously, is the origin of her theological background. Nowhere in the CHC websites mentions her credentials.
I believe that one does not need theological background to be a pastor. Perhaps credential is just a sufficient but not necessary condition to be a pastor. A person can have no background, but his preaching is very powerful and we can see that he's ordained by God.
If someone is a pastor but teach seemingly unorthodox stuff ... *shrugs* .. -
Ahahahhhaha this discussion really makes me giggle.
And pleaase don't compare her to Michael W. Smith. I love his songs!!! -
Hmmm. If Ms Ho doesn't preach, that obviously disproves the point of her being ordained by God for being a mouthpiece cos if she was, she'd be spreading His word now according to His will. And if she didn't go for any theological studies either which seems pretty apparent from the lack of her credentials, then what's she doing with the Pastor tag in the first place?Originally posted by Icemoon:How does one get the Reverend title?
I believe that one does not need theological background to be a pastor. Perhaps credential is just a sufficient but not necessary condition to be a pastor. A person can have no background, but his preaching is very powerful and we can see that he's ordained by God.
If someone is a pastor but teach seemingly unorthodox stuff ... *shrugs* ..
As for the matter about the dress, nobody can force you to wear what you don't want to wear. Period. -
The thing is, even Reverend Kong, her dress advisor?, admitted that the dress is not normal, that it revealed too much flesh. Those who claim that the dress is normal might be lying through their teeth.Originally posted by mangofreak:As for the matter about the dress, nobody can force you to wear what you don't want to wear. Period. -
Dear Chin Eng,
I have been reading your replies. Most of them echo my sentiments. May I know what denomination you are in? -
Totally!Originally posted by wallpaper*:Dear Chin Eng,
I have been reading your replies. Most of them echo my sentiments. May I know what denomination you are in?
God has stated clearly that if we are a friend of the world, then we are His enemies because the world is riddled with sin. There can be no compromise in between. -
Yeah! Way to go Chin Eng! I like your views! I also would like to know which denomination are you from?
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Originally posted by Icemoon:How does one get the Reverend title?
I believe that one does not need theological background to be a pastor. Perhaps credential is just a sufficient but not necessary condition to be a pastor. A person can have no background, but his preaching is very powerful and we can see that he's ordained by God.
If someone is a pastor but teach seemingly unorthodox stuff ... *shrugs* .. I think it goes like this, the details may vary from denomination to denomination, but there is always a procedure:
In most of the mainstream churches, one graduates from a full-time worker with pastoral responsibilities ie minister to the sick, counsel those who needed counselling etc. In the meantime, this individual may already be studying in some theological college, eg Trinity Theological College or Tung Lin Bible Institute. The title, till now, will still be Mr or Ms. Upon graduation, this individual may continue his work with a church whereby a title of Pastor can be conferred onto him. After a certain period of time, the Reverend title will take effect. The reverend title is important because this title allow the holder to pronounce benediction, conduct holy communion, bury the dead, and in some cases, conferred by the government, be allow the conduct the marriage vow (ie no need to go to ROM).
I want to state clearly that I did not say that HYS has no credentials to hold the title of Reverend. I am saying that I CANNOT find her credentials in the CHC website which lists very clearly Rev Kong's train of education.
If such credentials exist, then it will be good to put it out for all to see, especially she is said to be the co-pastor, with her husband, of CHC.
To all who wish to know my denomination, I hate to disappoint you. It is not that I do not wish to disclose this, it is because I do not wish this thread to be viewed as an inter-denominational clash, lest other less sympathic individual may accuse me of splitting the church. I do, however, appreciate the support that all of you have shown by your writing.
I can say this much though, I am from a fairly large Protestant denomination. I have friends from both Charismatic and Traditional styles of worship.
God bless all of us in this rainy day..... -
I sincerely believe tiggersgd seems to be close to fanatism... The use of his language give me the impression tat he seems to be some judge or something...
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Hi Chin Eng,
Don't think anybody can give you any answers here though I support most of what you have written. You want answers you must get it from the horses' mouth. No one can answer you if the question that you ask is not directed at the person, not even ppl from CHC.
Go look for HYS and the husband. Not impossible to look for them. Make an appointment. If they don't want to see you, maybe then you can assume they can't answer your question.
No point going about explaining all the "rebukes" and arguments. Oh...by the way, bring a recorder along and tape their answer so that no one can accuse you of misrepresenting them.
God Bless -
lol..........can this topic stop........even i also bored liao lor..........at least wait till the next contraversy come up lah.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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AH!!!!!!!!! GOT SOMEONE TAKE OVER ME LIAO! YAY!!!!!
*snk goes back to quiet reading instead of burying his head in old bible studies notes........