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  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      凝结和凝固我一向以来都以为是水结成冰,原来从水蒸汽变成水珠也可以啊。哈哈。照我看,两方面的运用都可以啦。

      对啊,你现在提起,我才想到原来youtube上可以观看。只可惜“爱”找不到。这个胡雪岩其实是一位末清年代的著名商人。他为人能言善道,远见卓识,是当时中国经济的一股推动力。这本书是说明他怎样使用三十六计经商,里面所包含的词汇,成语以及谚语多的是。

      Ok lor. 其實我也不懂啦。

      因爲我不是“愛”迷,所以我不知道“愛”迷的瘋狂原來是這樣的瘋狂的呀。我從第8播道放送第1集起看到30幾集就不看了。

      Har, 干焦屎,我還以爲胡雪岩是現代人呐,我還以爲她是女人呐,還好你有介紹。不好意思,我看了很想笑,不過還是要提醒一下,以後要用“清末”不然就“晚清”,“末清”是錯的。好好好,我們期待你網貼的到來。

    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      腮席 sounds cantonese lol. I'd prefer 大小. Yes, hard disk is 硬盤.....

      對,腮席有粵音的影子,我講的華語是方言味很重的,我引以爲豪,我不會故意裝腔作勢學習那些北方人講的滿口難以入耳的鴂舌的。

       

      Edited by BanguIzai 29 Jul `11, 1:00AM
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Cam across this today...how do we say "focus all our energy" in 成语?

      Are you to trying to induce the 成語 「全神貫注」 or something else?  聚精會神?

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Tks for the correction on 晚清! haha. And yes the 成語 is 全神貫注. Lost for a long time until my friend mentioned it in conversation.

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Got this from one of the comments on Wang Peng Fei, the PRC chap sent back to China for making fun of Sgporeans:

      “李光耀語錄都記錄說,”怎麼說我們都不過只是福建、廣東等地目不識丁、沒有田地的農民的後裔,他們有的卻儘是留守中原的達官顯要、文人學士的後代。”就連國家領袖這可以放棄自負,接受現實.新加坡人中那些華文水準差,幾話就只會罵娘撲街的華人缺不敢承認現實.這種自卑的心理,簡直是世界華人的笑柄.”

      Quite a number of PRC Chinese think very lowly of our standard of mandarin and I don't blame them. Our cultural infrastructure does not provide the necessary support.

      Edited by Rock^Star 30 Jul `11, 11:15PM
    • This china chap who got sent back home, he said that sgporeans use the word 做工 for "work". He said that's actually referring to manual work and the proper term should be 工作 for our normal employment. What do you all think?

      His theory has it that the term 做工 came about due to "our coolie forefathers" who fled from Qing china to seek a better life. And it doesn't help the LKY has ever told 邓小平 that our "stock" are poor immigrants and farmers from fujian and guangdong, so we don't have the entrepreneurial blood in us as compared to the taiwanese and hongkies. Well, tell that to the chinese in Indonesia. They come from that "stock" too and at least 99.9% of them are businessmen in big and small ways. That's on a side note anyway.

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Got this from one of the comments on Wang Peng Fei, the PRC chap sent back to China for making fun of Sgporeans:

      “李光耀語錄都記錄說,”怎麼說我們都不過只是福建、廣東等地目不識丁、沒有田地的農民的後裔,他們有的卻儘是留守中原的達官顯要、文人學士的後代。”就連國家領袖這可以放棄自負,接受現實.新加坡人中那些華文水準差,幾話就只會罵娘撲街的華人缺不敢承認現實.這種自卑的心理,簡直是世界華人的笑柄.”

      Quite a number of PRC Chinese think very lowly of our standard of mandarin and I don't blame them. Our cultural infrastructure does not provide the necessary support.

      It is speculated by some other people from CNA forum that these comments should be written by either Malaysians or Taiwanese,  due to the Traditional Characters.

      My own comments is,  the observation is true,  as when I talked with China Chinese people,  I have rarely met with ones that criticize our Chinese standards,  most just care about themselves and heck care.   My own experience with Malaysian Chinese is different, with some looking down on our Chinese standards, looking down on our quality of our local food, looking down on our traditional family values,  looking down on the way we conduct our day to day living.  Similarly, I also encountered Singaporean Chinese who look down on Malaysian Chinese,  looking down on the way they dress,  looking down on the way they think  etc.

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Well, sad to hear of such things but I guess it happens. Comparisons are inevitable. I have malaysian chinese friends and I don't think their standard in general is any higher than sgporeans. They have a lot of rojak in their speak, very much like us.

      Msians think sgporeans are wooden blockheads while we think they're low class. Hahaha all I can say is...what a bunch of ignoramuses!! Whichever side of the causeway that is!

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      This china chap who got sent back home, he said that sgporeans use the word 做工 for "work". He said that's actually referring to manual work and the proper term should be 工作 for our normal employment. What do you all think?

      His theory has it that the term 做工 came about due to "our coolie forefathers" who fled from Qing china to seek a better life. And it doesn't help the LKY has ever told 邓小平 that our "stock" are poor immigrants and farmers from fujian and guangdong, so we don't have the entrepreneurial blood in us as compared to the taiwanese and hongkies. Well, tell that to the chinese in Indonesia. They come from that "stock" too and at least 99.9% of them are businessmen in big and small ways. That's on a side note anyway.

      All these are fake theories lah.

      They usually come out from the mouths of non-linguists.  (mostly also with crooked agenda or  big ego psychoed into them)

      做工 is simply a verb-noun 動賓結構。   I just pick a simple website that explains this:

      http://hk.chiculture.net/0615/html/c25/0615c25.html

      Chinese is a SVO language, meaning it places the object after the verb as it's usual word order.

      If let's say someone comes face-to-face tell me this,  I will then say that 工作 is a word that is more influenced by the structure of the northern barbarian languages such as Manchurian, Mongolian that places the verb after the noun,  eg. 工作 is a noun-verb 賓動結構 structure.  Then I will tell him, "You are a barbarian".

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Well, I believe either version is acceptable then. Just that it can cause misunderstandings without realising it. A clash of cultures, I'd say.

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Well, I believe either version is acceptable then. Just that it can cause misunderstandings without realising it. A clash of cultures, I'd say.

      It can only cause misunderstanding because they refuse to read widely.

      He study until so high level,  worse than people like us who did not study much.

      Every thing is the world also can clash of culture mah, if I remain swakoo.  Like if I refuse to understand why some culture eat with hand, I also forever will not understand mah.

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      It can only cause misunderstanding because they refuse to read widely.

      He study until so high level,  worse than people like us who did not study much.

      Every thing is the world also can clash of culture mah, if I remain swakoo.  Like if I refuse to understand why some culture eat with hand, I also forever will not understand mah.

      Their country has a population of 2b? And they have only come out of the wilderness not too long ago. China is their 天下 and their 天下 is China lol. Some are myopic but there are also many who are plain jealous. The top 1000 richest in their country can easily buy our little red dot here but still, the typical fresh grad from there earns much less than ours. They can get into a big argument with you if you criticise Mao and others claim to have 4000 years of history behind them but behave like monkeys.

      And many of us are proficient in English as well (disclaimer: sgforums is an exception), hence their condescending behaviour.

      Having said that, no country in the world is perfect, Singaporeans aren't saints either. I respect the Chinese because I am one myself. Moreover, I love their history so much.

      Edited by Rock^Star 01 Aug `11, 7:42PM
  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Their country has a population of 2b? And they have only come out of the wilderness not too long ago. China is their 天下 and their 天下 is China lol. Some are myopic but there are also many who are plain jealous. The top 1000 richest in their country can easily buy our little red dot here but still, the typical fresh grad from there earns much less than ours. They can get into a big argument with you if you criticise Mao and others claim to have 4000 years of history behind them but behave like monkeys.

      And many of us are proficient in English as well (disclaimer: sgforums is an exception), hence their condescending behaviour.

      Having said that, no country in the world is perfect, Singaporeans aren't saints either. I respect the Chinese because I am one myself. Moreover, I love their history so much.

      Everything you said is so correct !  Ha Ha Ha.

    • Regarding the translations of the 成語s here (http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/432594?page=13#post_10300096) into Hokkien, Clivebenss has helped me vetted through them and enhanced the post.

      May you take a look:

      http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/425775?page=9#post_10314138

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Tks :) I think of the many idioms, I have only heard the hokkien 人 say 有心无力 before.

      May you share with us your Cantonese 成語s in the future.  We will look forward to it.

      I have scanned an old article written by our local author, 梁文福。 May you enjoy the article here:

                http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/425775?page=10#post_10314691

      Do let me know any comments.  It is about using dialects to read out T'ang poems.

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      May you share with us your Cantonese 成語s in the future.  We will look forward to it.

      I have scanned an old article written by our local author, 梁文福。 May you enjoy the article here:

                http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/425775?page=10#post_10314691

      Do let me know any comments.  It is about using dialects to read out T'ang poems.

      I used to watch a lot of TVB serials and a lot of the idioms used are literal translations of what we normally see in Mandarin.

      As for the article by 梁文福, it's interesting that he even thought of reciting poems with dialects haha. Sad to say, dialects in Singapore can only go one way....death. It has almost died with my in laws....and my cousin did not even have a chinese name till he had to print his wedding card!!

      Met a 77 year old hokkien uncle at a mountain resort recently, claims to be hokkien but he can't speak a word of it. Lost touch....totally gone.

    • Ok, here goes the words and idioms from the book: 胡雪岩:操纵商场 36 计

      如同一辙

      拍案叫绝

      摆谱

      危机四伏

      大厦将倾

      大悟彻悟

      风云突变

      相互帮衬

      两害相衡取其轻

      毫无羁绊

      无甚高论

      祸福同当

      至关重要

      要义

      (My own reference: stopped at p2)

      Just two pages and there are so many words worth noticing!! Will post the meanings the day after.

       

  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      Ok, here goes the words and idioms from the book: 胡雪岩:操纵商场 36 计

      如同一辙

      拍案叫绝

      摆谱

      危机四伏

      大厦将倾

      大悟彻悟

      风云突变

      相互帮衬

      两害相衡取其轻

      毫无羁绊

      无甚高论

      祸福同当

      至关重要

      要义

      (My own reference: stopped at p2)

      Just two pages and there are so many words worth noticing!! Will post the meanings the day after.

       

      如同一轍 > I use 同出一轍 more often. Meaning carve out from the same model literally (eg. both children look exactly like dad or mom, can use this.  Or this dialect and that dialect has deep similarities within their phonology, use to describe them having same common origin)。 轍 has something to do with the wheel of the olden days carts.

      拍案叫絕 > When everything or everyone around is at peace / calmness / no big change / cannot think of solution,  suddenly someone comes up with a brilliant idea and everyone just 拍案叫絕.

      擺譜 > dunno

      危機四伏 > Imminent danger.

      大廈將傾 > huh? This is a saying?  I translate literally as "Building gonna collapse"

      大悟徹悟 > Understand inside out /  fully / totally.

      風雲突變 > Drastic changes happening in the society or economy.

      互相幫襯 > Patronise each other. 幫襯 is still used in current Cantonese pɔŋ tsh'ɐn, meaning is "光顧" in Mandarin.

      兩害相衡取其輕 > Choose the better of the 2 evils.

      毫無羈絆 > No restrictions.  Free to act on something without constraints.

      無甚高論 >  dunno.  I guess "dun haf much indepth talks (<as in empty talks but no action)"

      禍福同儅 > Survive through thick and thin together.

      至關重要 > 新加坡人在於保衛方言文化,是當前至關重要的任務。 "Utmost importance"

      要義 > Main gist (referring to more of a contextual meaning of a book or philosophy)

  • SingaporeMacross's Avatar
    6,079 posts since Jan '03
  • BanguIzai's Avatar
    7,552 posts since Mar '10
    • Originally posted by Rock^Star:

      I used to watch a lot of TVB serials and a lot of the idioms used are literal translations of what we normally see in Mandarin.

      As for the article by 梁文福, it's interesting that he even thought of reciting poems with dialects haha. Sad to say, dialects in Singapore can only go one way....death. It has almost died with my in laws....and my cousin did not even have a chinese name till he had to print his wedding card!!

      Met a 77 year old hokkien uncle at a mountain resort recently, claims to be hokkien but he can't speak a word of it. Lost touch....totally gone.

       

       

      Any idioms which are not literal translations of Mandarin that you remember?

      For example, I provided one here in your thread before:
            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/432594?page=4#post_10282930

      單單打打 - not used in Mandarin; In Cantonese it refers to "Back stabbing each other"

       嘮亂骨頭 - not used in Mandarin; In Cantonese it refers to "Can stand each other"

       

       

      There are some which changes some words respectively in the Cantonese and the Mandarin version   (like those from the Hokkien versions which I provided above in your thread):

      example:     In Mandarin, it is usually said as 偷雞不着蝕把米,  but in Cantonese, 偷雞唔到蝕喳米 is more common。

      Do you have any more examples?

       

      ☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★

       

      梁文福 wrote in that article:「從歷史的角度來看,自行 “洗掉” 身上語言的人,等於將自己生命某部份洗掉。

      What do you think of that?  Many parents inculcate to their children that they should not speak the dialect, just learn Mandarin and English, they are washing away a part of themselves. The government stopped the usage of dialects in public TV, but why did these parents self-impose the dialects from their child even at home ?

       

       

      The poem quoted by 梁文福, is that "Betty City" poem contributed by FireIce in your "Poems" threads, did you notice or not  confused.png

      Here:    http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281#post_10300952

      Since you are Cantonese, I think you know why 梁文福 thought of reciting poems in 粵語 right?

      If you try reading it in 華語,the 3 rhyming words at the end of the poem does not rhyme:

            zhāo cí bái dì cǎi yún jiān  (in phonetics it is read as "tɕiɛn")
            qiān lǐ jiāng líng yī rì huán  (in phonetics it is read as "xʷan")
            liǎng àn yuán shēng tí bú zhù
            qīng zhōu yǐ guò wàn chóng shān  (in phonetics it is read as "ʂan")

      If you read it in 粵語 (in this case I'm referring to Kwongchau Cantonese ), the 3 rhyming words at the end of the poem can rhyme fully:

            tʃiu tʃʼi paak tɐi tʃʼɔi wɐn kaan
            tʃʼin lei kɔŋ liŋ jɐt jɐt waan
            lœŋ ŋɔn jyn siŋ tʼɐi pɐt tʃy
            hiŋ tʃɐu ji kʷɔ maan tʃʼuŋ saan   !

      How marvellous it is,  to read the Chinese poems in Cantonese !!

       

      Maybe you try reading these 3 poems you translated,  in both versions,  Cantonese and Mandarin,  and tell me which one rhymes more?

            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281#post_10300886
            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281?page=2#post_10301789
            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281?page=5#post_10313168

      ( I have an unexpected answer for you already,  but I'm gonna wait until you give your views then I will share with you the findings biggrin.png )

       

       

      I would not compare your in-laws and the 77-year old man, with Singaporeans like us:

       

      • First, Chinese are minority in Indonesia
      • Second, it is a convert-or-die scenario for Chinese in Java

       

      Therefore, Singaporeans have no reason to say that we forget our dialects

       

       

    • Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:

      Excellent thread.. we really need to pull up our standard of Mandarin.

      You must thank Rock^Star for all his efforts.

  • Moderator
    Rock^Star's Avatar
    11,142 posts since Jul '05
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

      ... or everyone around is at peace / calmness / no big change / cannot think of solution,  suddenly someone comes up ...大悟徹悟 > Understand inside out /  fully / totally. 風雲突變 > Drastic changes happening in the society or economy. 互相幫襯 > Patronise ...


      Edited by Rock^Star 05 Aug `11, 12:13AM
    • Originally posted by BanguIzai:

       

       

      Any idioms which are not literal translations of Mandarin that you remember?

      For example, I provided one here in your thread before:
            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/432594?page=4#post_10282930

      單單打打 - not used in Mandarin; In Cantonese it refers to "Back stabbing each other"

       嘮亂骨頭 - not used in Mandarin; In Cantonese it refers to "Can stand each other"

       

       

      There are some which changes some words respectively in the Cantonese and the Mandarin version   (like those from the Hokkien versions which I provided above in your thread):

      example:     In Mandarin, it is usually said as 偷雞不着蝕把米,  but in Cantonese, 偷雞唔到蝕喳米 is more common。

      Do you have any more examples?

       

      ☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★

       

      梁文福 wrote in that article:「從歷史的角度來看,自行 “洗掉” 身上語言的人,等於將自己生命某部份洗掉。

      What do you think of that?  Many parents inculcate to their children that they should not speak the dialect, just learn Mandarin and English, they are washing away a part of themselves. The government stopped the usage of dialects in public TV, but why did these parents self-impose the dialects from their child even at home ?

       

       

      The poem quoted by 梁文福, is that "Betty City" poem contributed by FireIce in your "Poems" threads, did you notice or not  confused.png

      Here:    http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281#post_10300952

      Since you are Cantonese, I think you know why 梁文福 thought of reciting poems in 粵語 right?

      If you try reading it in 華語,the 3 rhyming words at the end of the poem does not rhyme:

            zhāo cí bái dì cǎi yún jiān  (in phonetics it is read as "tɕiɛn")
            qiān lǐ jiāng líng yī rì huán  (in phonetics it is read as "xʷan")
            liǎng àn yuán shēng tí bú zhù
            qīng zhōu yǐ guò wàn chóng shān  (in phonetics it is read as "ʂan")

      If you read it in 粵語 (in this case I'm referring to Kwongchau Cantonese ), the 3 rhyming words at the end of the poem can rhyme fully:

            tʃiu tʃʼi paak tɐi tʃʼɔi wɐn kaan
            tʃʼin lei kɔŋ liŋ jɐt jɐt waan
            lœŋ ŋɔn jyn siŋ tʼɐi pɐt tʃy
            hiŋ tʃɐu ji kʷɔ maan tʃʼuŋ saan   !

      How marvellous it is,  to read the Chinese poems in Cantonese !!

       

      Maybe you try reading these 3 poems you translated,  in both versions,  Cantonese and Mandarin,  and tell me which one rhymes more?

            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281#post_10300886
            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281?page=2#post_10301789
            http://sgforums.com/forums/3948/topics/434281?page=5#post_10313168

      ( I have an unexpected answer for you already,  but I'm gonna wait until you give your views then I will share with you the findings biggrin.png )

       

       

      I would not compare your in-laws and the 77-year old man, with Singaporeans like us:

       

      • First, Chinese are minority in Indonesia
      • Second, it is a convert-or-die scenario for Chinese in Java

       

      Therefore, Singaporeans have no reason to say that we forget our dialects

       

       

      Honestly, I don't think I can recall any cantonese idiom/proverb unless you want bad words lol. My exposure to cantonese is not fantastic as my family speaks very basic cantonese....yes fluent enough but not the very qeem standard.

      As for my posting of the poems which you have highlighted to me again, I've tried it in cantonese. I wouldn't say it sounds better than mandarin. Some songs are better sung in cantonese and some in mandarin. Even in hokkien too. I guess cantonese has more tones and sounds more melodious as compared to mandarin's four tones. Then again, I wouldn't say which one's better. Both sound like music to me. Maybe hokkiien is foreign to me so the best two sounding languages to me are mandarin and cantonese.

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