Many Singaporeans migrating....How come???
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Originally posted by NuLife:
Can't help it. Sgporeans are just not making enuf babes.
every first world country is having problems with greying population. in a way you can say it is a happy problem.
on the other hand, difficulty in making a decent living means babes would be the last thing on our minds when trying to make ends meet. so when you say singaporeans are not making enough babies, do not forget to add that it is by and large because singaporeans aren't making enough $.
Population size is important key to sustaining and growing economy.
More important is that we have smart and hardworking people
now that the global economic interation is more important than ever.
you don't grow an economy by growing the population. this is not a chicken farm where you make more $ by growing more chicken. you look at countries like holland, switzerland and finland. small populations but enjoying decent lifestyle with good economies. no need to pump up the baby factory. something else is amiss really.
i think we are not deficient in smart and hardworking people. i believe our smart and hardworking people are being prevented from delivering what they are capable of and fulfilling their full potential. the system caps every smart, hardworking person at half tank (except the scholars) and then the scholars wonder how come the economy is going at only half speed?
I don't mind hardworking people coming in and make young complacent sporeans wake up. Beside, ain't our forefathers from china, indians etc??
i don't mind hu jin tao coming here to give our SM, MM ... all the Ms a run for their money ... then they will surely wake up.
Many of our great/grandparents are also from China/India.
One more generation will make some of these PRs kids Sporeans.
Those who stay temporarily or sgporeans who leave.. i say let them leave.
There will be some who wish to stay here and make sg their home.
so what is happening is that immigrants (our grandparents) come in poor and don't mind the hardlife. their children being heirs to this country do not expect to be treated the same way - like cheap labour. but unfortunately, this country is built on the backs of millions of slaves. so what happens when the children (the rightful inheritants to this land) refuse to slog like slaves as their forefathers have? they leave. how do the masters of this land cope with the problem? import more slaves. so the masters remain masters while slaves are dispensable and can be topped up. at this rate, we will never becoming a true great nation.
Whichever way, it will make spore a more cosmopolitian,
more multiracial, more tolerant and colorful.
Thats what a modern country and city should be.
as it is, we are already a lot more cosmopolitan than most cities in europe or north america, some of which are really small towns. making us even more cosmopolitan isn't going to help us much. it is not the inhibiting factor, given it already is present in abundance. something else really. you can only bring a country that far under communist rule. it isn't the most efficient way in encouraging individual pursuit of excellence. -
frankly singapore is soooooo small and boring there's very little to do. there's no freedom either. just work, work and work. stress, stress and stress.
i tink it's very natural that singaporeans are migrating in droves what's unusual is some people calling them 'quitters'. everybody in singapore including the said persons' forefathers must have been quitters then.
singapore is good for foreign (meaning "european/caucasian" etc) MNCs to come in and set up their bases. singapore by itself doesn't give its citizens much, granted its much greater than most parts of the world, singapore is one of the richest countries in the world (among top 30) its citizens still is confined to a tiny island.
ppl muz wanna have some freedom. naturally they're moving out. even the leaders may have moved out, heck they all even studied abroad, if not for huge pay they would have migrated too.
nothing unusual. -
U r so right.. my Grandfather was a quitter, so my Father.. now it is bout my children..they wanna be quitters 2 However, Me undecided yet! Anymore to join us!????Originally posted by protonhybrid:frankly singapore is soooooo small and boring there's very little to do. there's no freedom either. just work, work and work. stress, stress and stress.
i tink it's very natural that singaporeans are migrating in droves what's unusual is some people calling them 'quitters'. everybody in singapore including the said persons' forefathers must have been quitters then.
singapore is good for foreign (meaning "european/caucasian" etc) MNCs to come in and set up their bases. singapore by itself doesn't give its citizens much, granted its much greater than most parts of the world, singapore is one of the richest countries in the world (among top 30) its citizens still is confined to a tiny island.
ppl muz wanna have some freedom. naturally they're moving out. even the leaders may have moved out, heck they all even studied abroad, if not for huge pay they would have migrated too.
nothing unusual.
I can't quit yet, because I have too many relatives with same surnames Tans.AwsYeosLimsLaus ..many more.. so i stayed...not 'cause of PAP .. but because we all need to quit whne we cannot be FREE to VOTE! -
We do have a case here and there. The thing is, how do u classify a case where someone white is beaten up by an asian gang, but not because of race but because of robbery? There are many cases where asian gangs which roam the neighbourhood pick out lone victims at night to beat and rob them. These asian gangs don't form because everyone's of the same race, they form because geographically an area is settled with mostly asian families. If their victim happens to be white, we can only suspect racial motives but we cannot say for sure its main motivation is racial and not robbery. I am using such cases as an example of what MAY be seen as racial incidents, but even then they are not hard evidence of racism. For a matter of fact, if u want to use singapore as a comparism, how many gangs to begin with roam the streets at night? Any gathering of more than 4 is already illegal, I doubt if racists can band together to roam the streets at night if they wanted to. 2ndly, Uk's population is 20 times bigger than singapore's. U can't realistically expect not to hear about one or 2 such cases, its absurd to expect otherwise. So yes u can say that racism in Sg compared to UK is almost non-existant, but its circumstantial evidence, not hard evidence, due to the interferance of other factors making a fair comparism, at best unsuitable.Originally posted by snow leopard:yes you are right, i forgot about that. if you are consciously aware of people of different races beating one another up, then surely the ugliness of racism is pretty much severe there. the fact that i left out interracial abuses goes to show how unheard of racism amongst races occurs here. thus to include your new perspective, racism is extra mild here compared to those in UK.
actually, 1stly Plymouth is not exactly a small town. Its a fairly large and important costal city. 2ndly its a myth that today, most english cities are homogeneously white. In fact its safe to say a large percentage of each city are Asian/Indian. So according to your own logic, 400 in a city that is very rojak, is not a figure that is a tad too high. And yes minorities might be a better word, but its hard to classify what is considered a minority nowadays because the minorities are not "minority" anymore.Originally posted by snow leopard:no it does not. a very mixed population (rojak in terms of foreigners, blacks, whites, browns, yellows whatever you like to include) will all else being equal, have a much higher incidence of racism compared to one that is relatively homogeneous. the fact that we're talking about a small english town that ought to be relatively homogeneously white suggests that 400 might be a tad too high a figure, regardless its per population figure.
rather than foreigner, since you like to include different races, minorities might be a better word then.
In this case, the argument is that UK is extremely racist, so of course there must be hard evidence to support the argument. The hard evidence we have now supports the fact that there IS racism in UK(as there is of some sort in most countries), but the evidence does not support an "extremely racist theory" If we were to argue something new against an established base reason, then it calls for hard evidence to support the new hypothesis put forward, not for hard evidence to support what's already considered "the norm" because evidence has already been taken to extrapolate what we think and know now.Originally posted by snow leopard:on the other hand, given all the alternative scenarios possible, your interpretation that it is not worse than it actually is, is also equally not evident.
if we include (if we're free enough to actually find out) the racial mix of that particular town (which i'm confident is pretty homogeneous) we actually have a better case to say that racism is indeed much uglier there than say here in singapore.
We must also understand that in a tiny authoritarian state such as Singapore, not only is it easy to have a "zero tolerance" policy towards racism, it is also very easy to enforce it. In fact, like I mentioned earlier, it is very easy to stamp out on many forms of racism because they effectively fall into subgroups under the main groups of illegal activities, such as illegal gatherings etc. Other illegal acts which are harder to enforce, such as vandalism, do show some racism exist in Singapore. I name one of the most common acts: scrawling behind toilet cubical doors. There have been many racial ep and insults written on the back of many a toilet door in Singapore before. Especially common in kopi tiams. Often combined with heterosexist and homophobic attitudes too. A generic example would be where someone writes "Indian/chinese boy looking for indian/chinese boy to suck c**k" and someone else would write below it "Who want to suck smelly chinese/indian c**k?" Lets admit it. This is one thing most of you guys have seen before. You of course won't expect such incidents to make it into the newspapers, therefore it doesn't stick in the mind of a media-centric modern society of today, but its there and its staring many of you in the face. Just because UK has a few well publicized incidents does not mean racism is extreme here. -
Racism on minorities is unheard of but only because there is no media exposure on minor incidents. For example, do u remember the file making it sway around where an ah beng calls a bangala and abuses him on the phone? Did that make it into the media? Did anyone report it to the police? Was there an investigation? I doubt it. Like I mentioned above, today's society is media-centric. If the media doesn't jump on it and publicize it, people don't notice it. Public opinion should be more than a matter of what makes it into the news and what doesn't. People should open their eyes and notice the small things which says more about the real state of affairs than a few major incidents. Remember your observations leading to your suggestions are based on publicized incidents, not no careful observation of the real world. I mean, think for a moment about what I said, about the toilet doors, and u have to admit it is quite true. How many of you would have even thought about it if I haven't raised the point though? We have to be careful not to let what we think be dictated by the media alone. It does a society no good to become lazy in forming our own opinions and just let the media feed us what they want us to hear. Afterall, we are all intelligent beings and are capable of our own observations. Sometimes, I will give u the understanding that perhaps each and everyone's daily grind can numb us to certain telling things in everyday life. Thats why I think its very interesting to do what I do. Find a nice place, like a cafe or a bench in the mall, sit down with a drink, and observe the way people behave around u. It is very interesting. Or, heh, read the vandalism written on the back of the cubicle door the next time u use it. Or if u sit at the back of the bus, read what the vandals have carved into the seats. U might notice a few more deep rooted sentiments Singaporeans dare not express openly.Originally posted by snow leopard:in other words you're saying there may well be a lot more hidden racism cases here than in the UK. that may well be but observations suggest otherwise. racism on minorities is so unheard of i didn't even include it in the first place. there was a recent racial debate on the internet that eventually led to two chinese jailed. shows our govt stamps out racism much more strongly than in the uk (or the west in general), where you constantly hear abuses of iraqi soldiers.
Finally I will make the point again that Singapore is so small that it is easy to police effectively. Its not a case of "our govt stamps out racism much more strongly than in the uk" because if u honestly look around on government sites, while racial harmony is a policy, u seldom see any campaigns encouraging people to report cases of racially-motivated crimes. We have raical harmony day once a year, sometimes its talked about, and people know the government's stand on it. But you don't see a campaign to encourage reporting of racist incidents. In the UK, u get that. So how do we compare which government stamps out racism much more strongly when you don't have a fair base for comparism? If ou follow UK news(watch the BBC, itv, Channel 4, and Five news daily, u will realise the Uk govt clamps down strongly on racism as well. Its easy to do a search on the net and find reports online, of racist incidents, but since you don't often look for the follow up because it takes a few months from the occurance of the incident to the trial and conviction, the general view, especially if you're not physically here, is that of the racial crimes committed, not many are actually closed with an arrest and conviction. But the reality is, there are arrests, there are convictions, more than u would realise because you're not here now, u don't get the exposure to the news here, and thus u miss out on critical bits of information. If we go by outright number of convictions for racial crimes, UK would actually beat Singapore, but of course its as unfair a comparism as it is to compare how tough a country is based on the widely publicized conviction of TWO people in a numerically small country. At best, I would say that both countries are very dedicated to stamping out racism and proper social education. It is impossible to say which one is more stringent on racial crimes due to too big a difference in population figures, as well as government types(authoritarian singapore and more liberal uk). We can be sure though, that both governments hold the view(publicly at least) of anti-racism, because afterall, it would be political suicide otherwise.
Anyways talking about racism in Singapore, another thread seems to have sprung up supporting my view that Singaporeans' opinions about racism tends to be dictated by what is publicized by the media than by what they can personally observe if they looked around more carefully. If u think about it, games played amongst friends such as "what colour is the turban" where u pinch a friend's arm until he says what colour the turban of the Sikh who is passing by is.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=180172
I must say I enjoy debating with you. Things are argued on purely logical grounds and reasoning-based. Its good mental sparring, helps keep the mind keen. -
I'd like to see u try to make it count when there is almost nobody else u can vote for apart from the PAP.Originally posted by reyes:i feel disappointed with the singapore policy of giving PR cheaply CHINA PR and Indian PR and most of the times, when walking in streets i dont feel its singapore anymore, maybe feel more like shanghai, shenzhen.
office building in town area are fill with lotsa indians obviously from india the nos of veg, stalls opening one after another show the indians are really here getting their PR and then leave for a so call greener pasture.
#^%$#^% them.
i have pride being a singaporean though definitely not arrogrant compare to the china and indian ppl working in spore.
those who want to migrate please go ahead. those who stay need not feel jealous. afterall this is our birthland. the current situation here is due to us not participating more into the govt policy. try to make it count in the next election if we are to see changes in the bad policy.
In singapore, the ONLY way of participating in govt policy is to JOIN the PAP, barring which u just won't be taken seriously, except in rare cases. And even then, are u willing to be subjected to the risk of being harressed by the govt? And if you join the PAP, it won't be long before u're indoctrinated to think just like they do, and then u can really forget about changing the bad policies.
Don't be so quick to condemn those who migrate. Have you yourself ever done anything against the govt for what you believe in? Have you put yourself at personal risk for what you believe in? Not all of us leave purely by choice. Sometimes, the only way to continue the battle for what one believes in, is to uproot yourself and leave. If Charles de Gaulles did not leave France and got himself killed at the hands of the Nazis, the French resistance might not have been so effective and the liberation of France might have come later. The point is that sometimes, for the greater good of one's nation, you have to move to a place where your opponents do not hold much power over you, and thus more able to easily silence you. Its easy for you to talk about being proud to be Singaporean, but for you, does being proud to be Singaporean means u meekly follow the government lines, or does it mean u stand up and do something about the things u believe in, for the good of the nation, even if that means u have to oppose the government, and put yourself at personal risk? -
You guys are still debating this issue? I don't suffer fools gladly and I gave up long ago trying to change that. I admire the persistence of some people here (and the amount of free time they have!). esp Heng.
At least the debate has become (a little) more rational now. -
you won't believe how absurdly good i've become at surviving on no sleep.Originally posted by lwflee:You guys are still debating this issue? I don't suffer fools gladly and I gave up long ago trying to change that. I admire the persistence of some people here (and the amount of free time they have!). esp Heng.
At least the debate has become (a little) more rational now. -
Originally posted by HENG@:you won't believe how absurdly good i've become at surviving on no sleep.
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hey do i have u on MSN?Originally posted by LazerLordz: -
Don't talk. Do!
I have been engaging in Model UN for quite a while already.
The only shortcoming it has is everybody is interested in debating, and not actually intend to put the conclusion into action, eg. campaigning.
If anyone here active in this thread represent the heartlanders in Singapore, why not do something about it? Donate money to the opposition. Take part in citizen forums. Pose critical questions to policy-makers. I am an active campaigner in school, with particular focus on NGOs.
I am sick of talking. Let's all campaign. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
In this case, the argument is that UK is extremely racist, so of course there must be hard evidence to support the argument. The hard evidence we have now supports the fact that there IS racism in UK(as there is of some sort in most countries), but the evidence does not support an "extremely racist theory" If we were to argue something new against an established base reason, then it calls for hard evidence to support the new hypothesis put forward, not for hard evidence to support what's already considered "the norm" because evidence has already been taken to extrapolate what we think and know now.
nope that wasn't my argument, perhaps it was with someone else. i started off by saying it is pointless to say a country is or is not racist without some form of benchmark. i chose singapore as the benchmark and the new evidence reinforces the notion that singapore's racist situation is so much milder compared to those in the uk.
We must also understand that in a tiny authoritarian state such as Singapore, not only is it easy to have a "zero tolerance" policy towards racism, it is also very easy to enforce it. In fact, like I mentioned earlier, it is very easy to stamp out on many forms of racism because they effectively fall into subgroups under the main groups of illegal activities, such as illegal gatherings etc. Other illegal acts which are harder to enforce, such as vandalism, do show some racism exist in Singapore. I name one of the most common acts: scrawling behind toilet cubical doors. There have been many racial ep and insults written on the back of many a toilet door in Singapore before. Especially common in kopi tiams. Often combined with heterosexist and homophobic attitudes too. A generic example would be where someone writes "Indian/chinese boy looking for indian/chinese boy to suck c**k" and someone else would write below it "Who want to suck smelly chinese/indian c**k?" Lets admit it. This is one thing most of you guys have seen before. You of course won't expect such incidents to make it into the newspapers, therefore it doesn't stick in the mind of a media-centric modern society of today, but its there and its staring many of you in the face. Just because UK has a few well publicized incidents does not mean racism is extreme here.
what you're saying is that overt racism is perpetually non-existent in singapore because it is being clamped down hard but covert racism exists in our toilets. i have no qualms with this statement and in fact it supports my notion that racism is a lot less serious here than in the uk, given it only exists as harmless scribbles in toilets and not ugly or even painful experiences on the streets. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
We do have a case here and there. The thing is, how do u classify a case where someone white is beaten up by an asian gang, but not because of race but because of robbery? There are many cases where asian gangs which roam the neighbourhood pick out lone victims at night to beat and rob them. These asian gangs don't form because everyone's of the same race, they form because geographically an area is settled with mostly asian families. If their victim happens to be white, we can only suspect racial motives but we cannot say for sure its main motivation is racial and not robbery. I am using such cases as an example of what MAY be seen as racial incidents, but even then they are not hard evidence of racism. For a matter of fact, if u want to use singapore as a comparism, how many gangs to begin with roam the streets at night? Any gathering of more than 4 is already illegal, I doubt if racists can band together to roam the streets at night if they wanted to. 2ndly, Uk's population is 20 times bigger than singapore's. U can't realistically expect not to hear about one or 2 such cases, its absurd to expect otherwise. So yes u can say that racism in Sg compared to UK is almost non-existant, but its circumstantial evidence, not hard evidence, due to the interferance of other factors making a fair comparism, at best unsuitable.
yes you're right, cases of racism could actually have been nothing more than simply robbery. similarly, cases deemed as robbery could also be racially motivated where taking the money is just dessert and not the main course. so adding robbery cases that were actually primarily racially motivated would boost up the figures even more.
yes, you're right, policing is strict in singapore and people are generally more obedient too. these may have contributed to milder racism here but whatever the reasons, racism is nevertheless milder here compared to the uk.
uk's population is certainly much larger than ours but we're talking about a small english town here. bet their population couldn't be more than 2 million, perhaps 1 million. one quarter our population with 400 racism cases compared to 0 here. that's a lot worse isn't it?
actually, 1stly Plymouth is not exactly a small town. Its a fairly large and important costal city. 2ndly its a myth that today, most english cities are homogeneously white. In fact its safe to say a large percentage of each city are Asian/Indian. So according to your own logic, 400 in a city that is very rojak, is not a figure that is a tad too high. And yes minorities might be a better word, but its hard to classify what is considered a minority nowadays because the minorities are not "minority" anymore.
your definition of small town may be different from mine. a so-called city with only a million population is considered small town in today's world of megalopolis cities. so in my opinion, plymouth ought to be a small town (can't be bothered to find out the population). so yes a small town as such with a grave 400 figure is not a very safe place for minorities.
anything that can be used to differentiate people from the rest can be used to identify minorities - skin colour, language, religion ... -
Originally posted by HENG@:
Racism on minorities is unheard of but only because there is no media exposure on minor incidents. For example, do u remember the file making it sway around where an ah beng calls a bangala and abuses him on the phone? Did that make it into the media? Did anyone report it to the police? Was there an investigation? I doubt it. Like I mentioned above, today's society is media-centric. If the media doesn't jump on it and publicize it, people don't notice it. Public opinion should be more than a matter of what makes it into the news and what doesn't. People should open their eyes and notice the small things which says more about the real state of affairs than a few major incidents. Remember your observations leading to your suggestions are based on publicized incidents, not no careful observation of the real world. I mean, think for a moment about what I said, about the toilet doors, and u have to admit it is quite true. How many of you would have even thought about it if I haven't raised the point though? We have to be careful not to let what we think be dictated by the media alone. It does a society no good to become lazy in forming our own opinions and just let the media feed us what they want us to hear. Afterall, we are all intelligent beings and are capable of our own observations. Sometimes, I will give u the understanding that perhaps each and everyone's daily grind can numb us to certain telling things in everyday life. Thats why I think its very interesting to do what I do. Find a nice place, like a cafe or a bench in the mall, sit down with a drink, and observe the way people behave around u. It is very interesting. Or, heh, read the vandalism written on the back of the cubicle door the next time u use it. Or if u sit at the back of the bus, read what the vandals have carved into the seats. U might notice a few more deep rooted sentiments Singaporeans dare not express openly.
the fact that scribbles on the back of toilet doors does not translate into outright abuses and victimisation on the streets goes to show that racism is well capped here.
do not be mistaken, it is not that i've not used a public toilet or heard a racist joke from a friend. these are insignificant compared to the audacity of the racists there and the severity of the acts they commit.
Finally I will make the point again that Singapore is so small that it is easy to police effectively. Its not a case of "our govt stamps out racism much more strongly than in the uk" because if u honestly look around on government sites, while racial harmony is a policy, u seldom see any campaigns encouraging people to report cases of racially-motivated crimes. We have raical harmony day once a year, sometimes its talked about, and people know the government's stand on it. But you don't see a campaign to encourage reporting of racist incidents. In the UK, u get that. So how do we compare which government stamps out racism much more strongly when you don't have a fair base for comparism? If ou follow UK news(watch the BBC, itv, Channel 4, and Five news daily, u will realise the Uk govt clamps down strongly on racism as well. Its easy to do a search on the net and find reports online, of racist incidents, but since you don't often look for the follow up because it takes a few months from the occurance of the incident to the trial and conviction, the general view, especially if you're not physically here, is that of the racial crimes committed, not many are actually closed with an arrest and conviction. But the reality is, there are arrests, there are convictions, more than u would realise because you're not here now, u don't get the exposure to the news here, and thus u miss out on critical bits of information. If we go by outright number of convictions for racial crimes, UK would actually beat Singapore, but of course its as unfair a comparism as it is to compare how tough a country is based on the widely publicized conviction of TWO people in a numerically small country. At best, I would say that both countries are very dedicated to stamping out racism and proper social education. It is impossible to say which one is more stringent on racial crimes due to too big a difference in population figures, as well as government types(authoritarian singapore and more liberal uk). We can be sure though, that both governments hold the view(publicly at least) of anti-racism, because afterall, it would be political suicide otherwise.
maybe uk needs to vigorously promote or encourage people to report on racism because racism is indeed a real big problem there? maybe singapore does not vigorously report on racism because there is hardly anything to report on?
there are more arrests in the UK and therefore UK is doing a better job? is that better compared to here where there no incidents in the first place let alone anyone to be arrested? be it because we're smaller, or our govt's more efficient at stamping out racial discord or simply because our people have got better things to worry about, racism is milder here compared to there.
Anyways talking about racism in Singapore, another thread seems to have sprung up supporting my view that Singaporeans' opinions about racism tends to be dictated by what is publicized by the media than by what they can personally observe if they looked around more carefully. If u think about it, games played amongst friends such as "what colour is the turban" where u pinch a friend's arm until he says what colour the turban of the Sikh who is passing by is.
can't be bothered, not very passsionate about this side issue either. frankly harmless racist jokes cannot compare with outright racism in broad daylight that leads to abuse and suffering.
I must say I enjoy debating with you. Things are argued on purely logical grounds and reasoning-based. Its good mental sparring, helps keep the mind keen.
same here though i prefer arguing about something more meaningful or interesting. -
the actions of overt racism such as assault and illegal gathering, come under major offences. As I said before, Singapore is easy to police, hence overt cases don't occur. The same laws are in effect in UK, but due to UK being much bigger, effective policing is harder. If UK had a smaller population, or a larger budget for the police, then overt racism would be perpetually non existant as well. The only problem is the sort of police budget needed to make crime virtually 0 in UK would be so huge to be untenable.Originally posted by snow leopard:what you're saying is that overt racism is perpetually non-existent in singapore because it is being clamped down hard but covert racism exists in our toilets. i have no qualms with this statement and in fact it supports my notion that racism is a lot less serious here than in the uk, given it only exists as harmless scribbles in toilets and not ugly or even painful experiences on the streets.
Racism is, a problem, whether it manifest itself as an assault in the street, or a scribble in the loo. Why? because the underlying attitudes are the same, only the actions are dictated by the crime rate of a nation. Mentally, a racist in Singapore doesn't think much differently from a racist in UK, actionwise, the racist in Sg is more restricted because there is a higher chance of getting caught for ANY crime in Singapore. This difference in the level of manifestation of a person's racist views is not down to a difference in racism in either nation. Its down to a difference in effective policing in both nations, and that in turn is affected by population and physical geographical size.
If of course your referance to racism's seriousness extends only to actions taken, then yes it is a more serious problem here, but if we talk about it being a serious problem on a base level of an individual's thought processes, then its equally serious, whether UK or Sg. -
it evens it off. Actually recently police have been too quick to label certain attacks as racially motivated. There might be re-reviews again and I think we would find that the number of serious cases would go down.Originally posted by snow leopard:yes you're right, cases of racism could actually have been nothing more than simply robbery. similarly, cases deemed as robbery could also be racially motivated where taking the money is just dessert and not the main course. so adding robbery cases that were actually primarily racially motivated would boost up the figures even more.
And remember, when the population is encouraged to report ANYTHING they feel is racially offensive, regardless of whether the perpetuator had any intent to offend racially, it goes into records as a raicist incident. These factors MUST be borne in mind when considering the number of racist incidents. If Singapore had to report the sort of incidents being reported in the UK, I doubt if the cases of racist incidents would be so low.
Like in my previous post, its milder only if u consider the actions done by racists. If we talk about people who are racist on a mental leval, whatever their actions, its equally serious no matter which country we're talking about.Originally posted by snow leopard:yes, you're right, policing is strict in singapore and people are generally more obedient too. these may have contributed to milder racism here but whatever the reasons, racism is nevertheless milder here compared to the uk.
I doubt Singapore has 0 racist incidents reported. An unavailablity of statistics and numbers do not automatically render an incident rate of 0.Originally posted by snow leopard:uk's population is certainly much larger than ours but we're talking about a small english town here. bet their population couldn't be more than 2 million, perhaps 1 million. one quarter our population with 400 racism cases compared to 0 here. that's a lot worse isn't it? -
And once again I repeat myself in putting this down to the easier policing of a small nation, rather than any real difference in racist attitudes and percentage within the population.Originally posted by snow leopard:the fact that scribbles on the back of toilet doors does not translate into outright abuses and victimisation on the streets goes to show that racism is well capped here.
do not be mistaken, it is not that i've not used a public toilet or heard a racist joke from a friend. these are insignificant compared to the audacity of the racists there and the severity of the acts they commit.
I will post a letter written by a Singaporean in my next post. I think it shows that racism in Singapore is more serious than people realise, even though this racist attitude that is prevalent in Singapore does not manifest itself as serious crime. -
from http://www.sfdonline.org
Letter to SFD May 10, 2000
Racism or democracy?
Dear SFD,
With regards to the posting "Need More Money PAP?" by KS Lim (dated 8th May 2000), the author made a derogatory remark aimed at the Malay community when he mentioned that "they are multiplying like rabbits anyway".
While I applaud your efforts with your work on the website, at the same time, I am concerned about the content of some of the postings (especially those external contributions as mentioned above). I do hope that as you charge yourself with the mission of providing an alternate voice in the political discourse in Singapore, you will also undertake the responsibility to edit these very materials.
"Singaporeans for Democracy"? The remarks posted by KS Lim involves the very people who are Singaporeans, and I for one do not think that racism should be confused with democratic ideals.
Leslie Wee
Note: SFD agrees entirely with Leslie that racism and democratic ideals do not go hand in hand. We apologise if we have unintentionally offended any fellow Singaporean and would like to reiterate that our posting a reader's letter/s hardly means that we agree in total with his or her views. Thank you.
In reply to Leslie:
Dear SFD,
I refer to Leslie Wee's over-reaction to the letter on May 8th
He displays the typical PAP paranoia by calling the author of the article racist and accuses the SFD of endorsing the author's view. He took one sentence and blew it out of proportion and hurls an accusation? Racism!? I am reminded of the recent general elections where Tang Liang Hong was concerned about the erosion of the Chinese culture and the PAP labelled him 'Chinese Chauvinist'!?.
Kindly look at the article in its totality. If you had bothered to think, Mr Leslie Wee, the author was merely play-acting what the PAP would be debating on how to raise more money to cover up its losses. The collateral remark about Malays is actually what the PAP thinks of the Malay community. The PAP are racist against the Malays. They are kept out of key positions in government and have only 1 Malay pilot in the Airforce. This view that the PAP is racist towards the Malay community is also supported by remarks from the former Indonesian President BJ Habibe. If I am not mistaken, Malaysian PM Mahatir also made similar remarks of the PAP's treatment of Malays.
So do understand the context of the article before jumping to any wild conclusions. I showed the article to some Malay acquaintances and they found it quite amusing. They didn't take offence to the article. So Mr. Wee, if a Malay does not take offence to it, why should you? The Malays can fight their own battles without you taking offence on their behalf.
Ramesh K
while leslie may have overreacted, the next letter no doubt shows that racism is not only a serious problem in Sg, it is also an unofficial govt policy! Racism does not have to manifest itself as serious crime to threaten the standard of living of minorities. It can also manifest itself thru other things such as career restrictions etc. -
Letter to SFD June 3, 2000
More on racism in Singapore
Having read Leslie Wee's allegation of the author's racism and the reply to his post, it is apparent that the Chinese population in Singapore are largely ignorant of the issue of racism in Singapore.
They are born in a country where they are the majority and face no racism. Their first experience of racism is when they leave for foreign soil. And when they are not given special treatment, they cry racism. As a non-chinese, I have lived with racism all my life and when I hear of such trivial transgressions occurring in foreign soil, I just shake my head.
What they experience there is only the fraction of the racism that minorities experience as a citizen in their own country.
I have professional skills. And whenever I call to make appointments for a job interview, I get enthusiastic responses when the prospective employer is told of my qualifications and experience. But when they find out my ethnic identity through my name, the tone in their voice changes and almost always give the same reply: 'I'm sorry, we are looking for someone who can speak Mandarin'.
So it comes as no surprise to me that Leslie Wee's charge of racism was the intensity that it was. And I am sure that Malays are not offended by remarks that they are 'multiplying like rabbits' as the rebuttal to Leslie Wee's article suggests. They have heard much worse said about them. This is but a trivial remark.
The Chinese are very quick to cry racism when on foreign soil but I would urge my fellow Chinese Singaporeans to take a good look at themselves before they accuse others of being racist. Consider the following stereotyping of the ethnic minorities by the Chinese:
1) Malays are lazy; They have no ambition and easily contented; Prone to substance abuse
2) Indians are liars; They are smooth talkers; I'd rather trust a snake than trust an Indian; Indians have one kind of smell and they are very unhygenic.
3) Eurasians are lazy; they are philanderers.
These remarks cut to the heart but the Chinese are uttering such remarks frequently. What are these remarks compared to 'Malays are multiplying like rabbits'".
Another thing obnoxious about the Chinese Singaporean is their absolute lack of sensitivity toward the minority races. When the conversation is in English, one person will just cut in and start speaking Mandarin so as to deliberately exclude minorities from the conversation. Another frequent event that happens to me is when I go to the food court or hawker center. I do not resemble a Chinese person remotely, but when I purchase the food, they nonetheless quote the price to me in Mandarin 'it is not that these people are monolingual, they can speak English but choose not to' a bad side-effect of the PAP's chauvinist Speak Mandarin campaign. This I find very offensive and downright racist.
It is high time that Chinese Singaporeans look at themselves and see their own inadequacies before accusing others of the same.
A Singaporean Too
The words in green reflect exactly what I think about Singaporean students or workers overseas who simply cry racism too easily. It is what I've been saying all along early in my debate with NuLife.
The rest in red demonstrates how racism is serious in Singapore. While the author of this letter hasn't been beaten up, the racist attitudes prevalent in Singapore clearly has hurt him on a personal level, affected his career opportunities, and made his quality of life lower than it has to be. And worse still, these sort of racist crimes are not the sort easily reported, and thus not easily weeded out. They can cause just as much damage and cannot be easily gotten rid of. In my view, they cause even more widespread damage to a greater number of people than a single case of someone getting beaten up due to race. How can anyone call this a mild problem? 5 years down the road UK might succeed in getting the number of racial assaults down to virtually 0, but do u think 5 years down the road we can get stop people in Singapore from holding such views about minorities? I doubt so. In fact the view held by the Sg govt that there is no need to encourage reporting of incidents because there is nothing to report, is disturbing. there is obviously too many things to report, but often, they are so minor that to report them would make the victim seem silly and oversensitive. And yet over time, the build up of such racial abuse and attitudes in Singapore can have a detrimental effect on the mental health of individuals in Singapore. And like I said, this sort of racism is almost impossible to stamp out. If you think racism in Sg is mild compared to UK, u need to re-assess the threat in another light, to see the danger as it actually is. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
the actions of overt racism such as assault and illegal gathering, come under major offences. As I said before, Singapore is easy to police, hence overt cases don't occur. The same laws are in effect in UK, but due to UK being much bigger, effective policing is harder. If UK had a smaller population, or a larger budget for the police, then overt racism would be perpetually non existant as well. The only problem is the sort of police budget needed to make crime virtually 0 in UK would be so huge to be untenable.
but racially inspired assault still counts as racism doesn't it? if not, then 400 would be an understatement as racially inspired major offences have been left out. like i said too, doesn't matter whether it is due to effective policing, smaller country or a docile population, racism is mild here compared to those in the uk and everyone, especially the minority should be thankful for that.
Racism is, a problem, whether it manifest itself as an assault in the street, or a scribble in the loo. Why? because the underlying attitudes are the same, only the actions are dictated by the crime rate of a nation. Mentally, a racist in Singapore doesn't think much differently from a racist in UK, actionwise, the racist in Sg is more restricted because there is a higher chance of getting caught for ANY crime in Singapore. This difference in the level of manifestation of a person's racist views is not down to a difference in racism in either nation. Its down to a difference in effective policing in both nations, and that in turn is affected by population and physical geographical size.
strictly speaking an attitude is just that - an attitude. you fantasize about someone but you don't go to bed with her, you've not committed adultery have you? so racial attitudes and racism are really miles apart so we really should not elevate the seriousness of one to that of the other. to do so would've been to belittle the seriousness of the latter while making a mountain out of the former.
effective policing may have been an effective deterrent but it doesn't explain why few as they are, there are still murders, rapes, thefts here but virtually no incidents of racism. something more than simple policing is at work here - social conditioning, we're simply not that violent towards minorities.
If of course your referance to racism's seriousness extends only to actions taken, then yes it is a more serious problem here, but if we talk about it being a serious problem on a base level of an individual's thought processes, then its equally serious, whether UK or Sg.
individual thought processes do not count as racism much like fantasies do not equate to adultery or hatred equals to murder. individual thought processes can be overidden by good moral upbringings so while you may have a distaste for certain groups of people, because of your moral or even religious bindings, you would never bring yourself to hurting them, as much as you feel disgusted about them. in such case, racial attitudes never get evolved into racism and that i think is what we have here. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
it evens it off. Actually recently police have been too quick to label certain attacks as racially motivated. There might be re-reviews again and I think we would find that the number of serious cases would go down.
yep it evens off, so the argument that racism count ought to be lower because some racism cases are actually robbery cases does not hold because the converse might be true as well.
And remember, when the population is encouraged to report ANYTHING they feel is racially offensive, regardless of whether the perpetuator had any intent to offend racially, it goes into records as a raicist incident. These factors MUST be borne in mind when considering the number of racist incidents. If Singapore had to report the sort of incidents being reported in the UK, I doubt if the cases of racist incidents would be so low.
how or why do you have to encourage reporting racism when there really isn't anything to be reported in the first place?
Like in my previous post, its milder only if u consider the actions done by racists. If we talk about people who are racist on a mental leval, whatever their actions, its equally serious no matter which country we're talking about.
there is no racism on a mental level. you can say racism originates from the mental level but if it ultimately does not manifest itself in real life because of higher mental processes inhibiting racial attidues at the mental level, then racism does not exist. even on a mental level, i'm inclined to think that we singaporeans aren't nearly as racist as the ang mohs.
I doubt Singapore has 0 racist incidents reported. An unavailablity of statistics and numbers do not automatically render an incident rate of 0.
it may not be 0 but it certainly wouldn't be 400 either. chances are it's 1 or 2. -
easier policing doesn't explain why racism count = 0 while murder, theft and rape counts are much higher.Originally posted by HENG@:And once again I repeat myself in putting this down to the easier policing of a small nation, rather than any real difference in racist attitudes and percentage within the population. -
judging from the reply from ramesh, leslie did not overreact, he misread the letter and misunderstood the writer.Originally posted by HENG@:while leslie may have overreacted ... -
Originally posted by HENG@:
What they experience there is only the fraction of the racism that minorities experience as a citizen in their own country.
exactly my sentiments, racism isn't serious here compared to elsewhere.
I have professional skills. And whenever I call to make appointments for a job interview, I get enthusiastic responses when the prospective employer is told of my qualifications and experience. But when they find out my ethnic identity through my name, the tone in their voice changes and almost always give the same reply: 'I'm sorry, we are looking for someone who can speak Mandarin'.
he may have been oversensitive. since MNCs and GLCs provide the bulk of professional employment opportunities and MNCs and GLCs obviously do not discriminate against people who don't speak mandarin, i have doubts to what he is saying.
1) Malays are lazy; They have no ambition and easily contented; Prone to substance abuse
2) Indians are liars; They are smooth talkers; I'd rather trust a snake than trust an Indian; Indians have one kind of smell and they are very unhygenic.
3) Eurasians are lazy; they are philanderers.
yes, these are familiar stereotypes but i wonder why the writer left out number (4) chinese are money faced. why does silly stereotypes about his own kind cuts into his heart while similar stereotypes about chinese are merely whitewashed? says something about this guy's racial attitudes as well doesn't it?
Another thing obnoxious about the Chinese Singaporean is their absolute lack of sensitivity toward the minority races. When the conversation is in English, one person will just cut in and start speaking Mandarin so as to deliberately exclude minorities from the conversation. Another frequent event that happens to me is when I go to the food court or hawker center. I do not resemble a Chinese person remotely, but when I purchase the food, they nonetheless quote the price to me in Mandarin 'it is not that these people are monolingual, they can speak English but choose not to' a bad side-effect of the PAP's chauvinist Speak Mandarin campaign. This I find very offensive and downright racist.
that's strange, i always make an attempt to say things like berupper or chukop when buying food at malay stalls. does my single non-racist annecdote negate those of the writer's? in other words, does he represent the experiences of every other minority?
The words in green reflect exactly what I think about Singaporean students or workers overseas who simply cry racism too easily. It is what I've been saying all along early in my debate with NuLife.
wait a minute, didn't you say earlier that the UK govt encourages reports on racism? so we can't be crying racism too easily can we? easier than facilitated by the UK govt?
The rest in red demonstrates how racism is serious in Singapore. While the author of this letter hasn't been beaten up, the racist attitudes prevalent in Singapore clearly has hurt him on a personal level, affected his career opportunities, and made his quality of life lower than it has to be. And worse still, these sort of racist crimes are not the sort easily reported, and thus not easily weeded out. They can cause just as much damage and cannot be easily gotten rid of. In my view, they cause even more widespread damage to a greater number of people than a single case of someone getting beaten up due to race. How can anyone call this a mild problem? 5 years down the road UK might succeed in getting the number of racial assaults down to virtually 0, but do u think 5 years down the road we can get stop people in Singapore from holding such views about minorities? I doubt so. In fact the view held by the Sg govt that there is no need to encourage reporting of incidents because there is nothing to report, is disturbing. there is obviously too many things to report, but often, they are so minor that to report them would make the victim seem silly and oversensitive. And yet over time, the build up of such racial abuse and attitudes in Singapore can have a detrimental effect on the mental health of individuals in Singapore. And like I said, this sort of racism is almost impossible to stamp out. If you think racism in Sg is mild compared to UK, u need to re-assess the threat in another light, to see the danger as it actually is.
from what was written, i have doubts about this guy's experiences and also wonder about his own racial attitudes. as such i would take it with a pinch of salt. racism is not serious here especially when there are better things to worry about like retrenchments, medical bills, cost of living ... -
you are missing the point. racism is racism, whether it is an assault or a toilet scribling. no racial assaults doesn't equate to having no racism. The reason for no racist ASSAULTS alone is down to effective policing. Racism itself is not reported even though it is happening in Singapore. It is not mild in any way, it just manifests itself in a different form where it is not reported.Originally posted by snow leopard:but racially inspired assault still counts as racism doesn't it? if not, then 400 would be an understatement as racially inspired major offences have been left out. like i said too, doesn't matter whether it is due to effective policing, smaller country or a docile population, racism is mild here compared to those in the uk and everyone, especially the minority should be thankful for that.
no i disagree. with things like murder or adultry, it is defined by the actual actions of an individual. in fact, lets look at definations for murder and adultery, and discrimination like sexism & racismOriginally posted by snow leopard:strictly speaking an attitude is just that - an attitude. you fantasize about someone but you don't go to bed with her, you've not committed adultery have you? so racial attitudes and racism are really miles apart so we really should not elevate the seriousness of one to that of the other. to do so would've been to belittle the seriousness of the latter while making a mountain out of the former.
effective policing may have been an effective deterrent but it doesn't explain why few as they are, there are still murders, rapes, thefts here but virtually no incidents of racism. something more than simple policing is at work here - social conditioning, we're simply not that violent towards minorities. [b][/quote]
racism includes racist attitudes. its not just an attitude because it shows itself with the way we interact with the society and other people within society. Not committing violence doesn't mean racism doesn't show. And once again, not reporting an unfriendly stare from someone just because they don't like your race does not mean there is no racism. Like I said, we need to shift the focus away from what is reported in the media, to what we can observe ourselves. Racism definately includes racist attitudes for that matter.
And remember, non-violence towards minorities does not mean no racism. It might explain a lower reported case statistic, but racism can often manifest itself in equally hurtful, harmful, non-violent forms.
[quote]Originally posted by snow leopard:
[b]individual thought processes do not count as racism much like fantasies do not equate to adultery or hatred equals to murder. individual thought processes can be overidden by good moral upbringings so while you may have a distaste for certain groups of people, because of your moral or even religious bindings, you would never bring yourself to hurting them, as much as you feel disgusted about them. in such case, racial attitudes never get evolved into racism and that i think is what we have here.
from http://dictionary.reference.com
Main Entry: mur·der
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice
as we can see, an actual PHYSICAL act of killing needs to happen
Main Entry: adul·tery
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.
similiarily, an actual PHYSICAL act of sexual intercourse is needed
Rac·ism
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
In this case, it is VERY clear that simply having a belief(an attitude) that others of another race are any less worthy counts very much as racism. In this case, it would appear that your understanding of what counts as racism is flawed, because racist attitudes count as racism.
similiarly if we look at sexism:
sex·ism
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
once again we see that ATTITUDES count, not just physical action.
so i conclude, with evidence from the dictionary, that racism, BY DEFINATION DOES include racist attitudes as well as racist actions, and that I was right on this subject. U are mistaken in saying that racist attitudes evolves into racism, because racism INCLUDES, BY DEFINATION, racist attitudes.
And because we now know FOR CERTAIN that racism includes racist attitudes, that indesputable fact means racism IS not milder in Singapore just because there is a lack of reported cases. In fact from observation, racism IS much more SERIOUS in Singapore than most people realise.