Many Singaporeans migrating....How come???
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because there is. as my previous post shows, u mistakenly thought that racism does not include racist attitudes. By defination, it does, and that means yes there is racism in Sg, more than most Singaporeans dare to admit, and certainly enough to be reported, if we want to stamp it out. Denial does not help to improve things afterall.Originally posted by snow leopard:how or why do you have to encourage reporting racism when there really isn't anything to be reported in the first place?
once again, yes there is. As i already explained very concisely in my previous post, u are wrong about that.Originally posted by snow leopard:there is no racism on a mental level. you can say racism originates from the mental level but if it ultimately does not manifest itself in real life because of higher mental processes inhibiting racial attidues at the mental level, then racism does not exist. even on a mental level, i'm inclined to think that we singaporeans aren't nearly as racist as the ang mohs.
Remember, reported cases aside, a lot of racism in Sg goes unreported. Nor is it encouraged by the govt to report them.Originally posted by snow leopard:it may not be 0 but it certainly wouldn't be 400 either. chances are it's 1 or 2. -
it does explain why reported serious racial assaults are low or non existant. thats all. Otherwise, it doesn't explain why racism is low because its not low. Im not saying its very high either, but its certainly common enough to be cause for alarm. thats why im not so alarmed about UK because although its not low here either, its not extremely high, and the UK govt is quite dedicated to stamping it out.Originally posted by snow leopard:easier policing doesn't explain why racism count = 0 while murder, theft and rape counts are much higher.
On the other hand, singapore has a similiar level of racism, but it is denied, people tend to think its the situation is better than it is, they don't have a proper understanding of how racism includes, BY DEFINATION, racist attitudes, and there is no dedication within the govt to stamp out racist by encouraging people to report incidents, no matter how small. -
you guys really still want to continue this racism discussion huh?
allow me to add...
the stereotyping of chinese, indians, malays etc...
stems from the fact that each race, historically and culturally,
have different values (or even genes, thus inbuilt talents and weaknesses)
something that is hard to change.
(well, on the otherhand, you can say that chinese are driven,
indians make glib businessmen and malays have great family bonding values)
I would say Singapore, due to its multicultural background,
is definitely "more PRONE" to racism problems.
We are not like Malaysia or England with single race origin
thus less "prone" to such problems.
What i can say is that we had been extremely sucessful in ensuring
different races can live together and prosper.
The fact that we have few crimes now, one reason being by clamping them
down aggresively in the past and now, had in the long-run,
made the us aware of the importance of racism harmony in sg.
Such education itself, had after generations and generations,
made us, especially the younger ones, much less racist than most other countries.
Imagine you have a larger than current malay population in England.
See what is going to happen.
(Btw, dun forget what i was also trying to point out is that UK is more racist
than other angmoh countries, not just compared with Sg). -
Originally posted by snow leopard:
Such are really common problems of developed countries.
every first world country is having problems with greying population. in a way you can say it is a happy problem.
on the other hand, difficulty in making a decent living means babes would be the last thing on our minds when trying to make ends meet. so when you say singaporeans are not making enough babies, do not forget to add that it is by and large because singaporeans aren't making enough $.
Theres no way we can stop population decline, except import.
With greying population, there will be less working and helping with economy growth.
Even european countries face such problems.
The $$ part, i have to agree that the standard of living in sg had increased too much over last 2 decades.
It definitely is not a so direct and proportional problem or solution.
you don't grow an economy by growing the population. this is not a chicken farm where you make more $ by growing more chicken.
Statistically though, it is one way for bigger local market for small businesses and more talents.
Another shortcut to more talents of course is by import, as we all know.
The European countries had had longer histories and independent time to build their nation and industries.
you look at countries like holland, switzerland and finland. small populations but enjoying decent lifestyle with good economies. no need to pump up the baby factory. something else is amiss really.
We had to catchup and had progressed too fast over just a few generations,
leaving a lot of the older generations with lower general education.
In Europe, a number of grandpa/grandma age elderlies have degrees, not so true here.
Also, with many developed countries in Europe, it itself is already a huge ready market with high paying consumers.
The EU plays an impt role here. Free-flow trading, single currency etc etc helps even more.
With Sg in seasia, its quite different.
Another pt is, being at the right time of modern human civilisation's industrial changes and at the right place offer the best opportunity to build economy out of it. And the western countries had had the best opportunity in the last century.
They were politically more peaceful and values different which promotes scientific and technological advancement which helps their economy.
Examples:
Holland's Philips invented the flourenscent light which is the basis of their business even til today.
Germany's strength in heavy industry comes from the time when steam engines and planes were invented.
This was followed by the invention gasoline engines and cars.
Thus the birth of Ford, BMW.
AT&T was formed when telephones were invented.
Intel was started at a time when transistors were invented in AT&T. (if im not wrong)
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were at a place and time when microprocessors were being introduced to the world.
Finland's Nokia seized opportunity on the mobile phone analog to GSM digital trend.
(I can't say much about Switzerland, its also known an overly expensive place to live)
Jus some examples.
Thus u can see european countries have alot of advantages.
Here, we have our own problems to settle, infrastructures and system to build before we can catchup. We are really a young nation.
These said, thou i agree we still can do better.
Flaw in the scholar system is a problem. And it is not the only problem.
i think we are not deficient in smart and hardworking people. i believe our smart and hardworking people are being prevented from delivering what they are capable of and fulfilling their full potential. the system caps every smart, hardworking person at half tank (except the scholars) and then the scholars wonder how come the economy is going at only half speed?
Economy growth is affected by many factors. Capping smart and hardworking people and scholars system are just some reasons.
Too many factors, enough to start another thread on these.
On the other hand, i feel that neither are we deficient in slackers and whiners.
Nevertheless, wrt the scholar system, we can see the government is beginning to realise that and is changing its policies.
Thus the recent focus on Entrepeneurship, sports, R&D etc etc.
Better late than never. Its all parts and parcel of a maturing nation and society.
We did not have the capability to recognise many talents and gloom them and the capacity to allow them to contribute fully.
Thus causing many to leave. Its time to change.
Personally, on a side note, I feel, the 'Culture of society' is the most important factor in ensuring lasting growth and success.
Here, we have alot to improve and learn from US, Japan, Korea etc.
Eg the culture of excellence, culture of celebrating dare devils, culture of accepting talents whichever race/country they are from, culture of providing space for dreamers to try and fail etc etc.
Again here, I do feel that we have also been improving esp over the last few years.
My personal view is that MM had been most relevant at his time.
i don't mind hu jin tao coming here to give our SM, MM ... all the Ms a run for their money ... then they will surely wake up.
As for our SM, I dun agree to much of the things that happened when he was PM,
especially on how much property prices and living std increased during his terms.
I feel, the overly high living std we have now are really the result of our SM Goh.
For those who refuse to work hard, i say they can never survive even in another country for long.
so what is happening is that immigrants (our grandparents) come in poor and don't mind the hardlife. their children being heirs to this country do not expect to be treated the same way - like cheap labour. but unfortunately, this country is built on the backs of millions of slaves. so what happens when the children (the rightful inheritants to this land) refuse to slog like slaves as their forefathers have? they leave. how do the masters of this land cope with the problem? import more slaves. so the masters remain masters while slaves are dispensable and can be topped up. at this rate, we will never becoming a true great nation.
Because to some extent, we have to acknowledge that cheap labour is a global problem.
Though at the same time, we do have "foriegn" import QC problem.
On the slave syndrom, i feel it is also due to:
1) Inability of local companies to recognise local talents and made full use of them putting them in the same basket as cheap foreign imports when measuring talents and labours cost.
It maybe considered a management problem.
2) Lack of Innovative competitive edge
As business competition become global, many local companies still relied on cost as the only edge, which we all know is the key to failure.
They lack the innovative edge to compete effectively and can only slash labour cost by importing cheap labour cutting local workers salaries.
However, we shld also be reminded that quality of local graduates is also a problem.
In this age of globalisation and china/india rise, being cosmopolitian can be our advantage.
as it is, we are already a lot more cosmopolitan than most cities in europe or north america, some of which are really small towns. making us even more cosmopolitan isn't going to help us much. it is not the inhibiting factor, given it already is present in abundance. something else really. you can only bring a country that far under communist rule. it isn't the most efficient way in encouraging individual pursuit of excellence.
'Communist' rule, is another issue. -
I agreed on some point but what is the quality problem of the local graduates?Originally posted by NuLife:In this age of globalisation and china/india rise, being cosmopolitian can be our advantage.
'Communist' rule, is another issue. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
you are missing the point. racism is racism, whether it is an assault or a toilet scribling. no racial assaults doesn't equate to having no racism. The reason for no racist ASSAULTS alone is down to effective policing. Racism itself is not reported even though it is happening in Singapore. It is not mild in any way, it just manifests itself in a different form where it is not reported.
i did not miss your point, i simply did not agwee with it. sexual offence is sexual offence, yet we can have so many degrees of sexual offences ranging from flashing, molestation to rape and so on. are you saying just because a sexual offence is a sexual offence therefore a flasher ought to be canned like the rapist? assault and scribbling are worlds apart.
you are assuming things. besides effective policing, you can also attribute the low incidence of racism to our social fabric, education, moral and religious conditioning. before you say it is not reported, can you tell me how many incidents are waiting to be reported? are there many if any at all?
you want everyone to report graffitti on toilet doors? that is a serious problem for our authorities to attend to? come to think about it, there is so much less graffiti here (racial or otherwise) compared to those in the western countries, so even when comparing toilets, you can say racism is so much milder here.
racism includes racist attitudes. its not just an attitude because it shows itself with the way we interact with the society and other people within society. Not committing violence doesn't mean racism doesn't show. And once again, not reporting an unfriendly stare from someone just because they don't like your race does not mean there is no racism. Like I said, we need to shift the focus away from what is reported in the media, to what we can observe ourselves. Racism definately includes racist attitudes for that matter.
And remember, non-violence towards minorities does not mean no racism. It might explain a lower reported case statistic, but racism can often manifest itself in equally hurtful, harmful, non-violent forms.
it is robotic to stick to definitions without understanding meaning and context. racism of the kind we commonly think of, that leads to assault and savagery is miles apart from racist attitudes manifested in toilet graffitti. and as far as i can see, interaction within our society is thankfully devoid of the kind of racist savagery you see in the west.
you don't get it. no one's reading from the newspapers. we're speaking from experiences and experiences tell us that that the unfriendly stare you mentioned is virtually non-existent here but are perhaps more prevalent where you are now.
Rac·ism
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
In this case, it is VERY clear that simply having a belief(an attitude) that others of another race are any less worthy counts very much as racism. In this case, it would appear that your understanding of what counts as racism is flawed, because racist attitudes count as racism.
i disagwee, you should reinterpret what you are reading. firstly, the explanation racism is divided into 1 and 2. normally that means there are two meanings or two levels to look at it. hence while a belief of racial superiority is indeed racism it exists only at a very basic level. item 2 is what we normally would consider racism, the kind that makes up the 400 figure. so contrary to what you're saying, i think i correctly apply context and meaning to subtle differences in the meaning of the word.
sex·ism
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
once again we see that ATTITUDES count, not just physical action.
even so, by how much do they count? does scribbling on the wall count nearly as much as racial assaults?
so i conclude, with evidence from the dictionary, that racism, BY DEFINATION DOES include racist attitudes as well as racist actions, and that I was right on this subject. U are mistaken in saying that racist attitudes evolves into racism, because racism INCLUDES, BY DEFINATION, racist attitudes. And because we now know FOR CERTAIN that racism includes racist attitudes, that indesputable fact means racism IS not milder in Singapore just because there is a lack of reported cases. In fact from observation, racism IS much more SERIOUS in Singapore than most people realise.
please lah, the dictionary merely defines words, it does not assign gravity to different meanings of the same word nor is smart enough to apply them in context. so you're quite off the ball on this subject really.
regardless of definitions, racism (of the bloody kind we're talking about) is miles apart from racist attitudes displayed on toilet doors.
if you really want to include grafitti on toilet doors then tell me how much more graffitti you find in UK toilets compared to Singapore toilets. even when you compare toilets (i don't know how come our supposedly intelligent discussion have degraded to such), racism is much less serious in singapore than you would admit. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
because there is. as my previous post shows, u mistakenly thought that racism does not include racist attitudes. By defination, it does, and that means yes there is racism in Sg, more than most Singaporeans dare to admit, and certainly enough to be reported, if we want to stamp it out. Denial does not help to improve things afterall.
i think you're the one who has mistaken toilet graffiti to be racism of the kind that makes blood boil. going by your definition you would probably have to jack up the UK small town's 400 figure ten fold, then when you compare again with SG, again it's pee-nuts. not that singaporeans dare not admit, there is nothing to admit as they really can't be bothered with toilet graffitti. seriously, there are better things to worry about than toilet graffitti.
once again, yes there is. As i already explained very concisely in my previous post, u are wrong about that.
no there isn't. concisely out of point.
Remember, reported cases aside, a lot of racism in Sg goes unreported. Nor is it encouraged by the govt to report them.
if you're referring to toilet cases being those underneath the ice berg cases, then i'm sure UK toilets have a whole lot more. you mean UK govt encourage people to report graffitti on toilet walls? if they do, that 400 figure will immediately shoot up to 4000. judging by our toilets, i think we're ok. -
no it does not and you're assuming things. tell me it is not due to upbringing, religion, social fabric or even education.Originally posted by HENG@:it does explain why reported serious racial assaults are low or non existant. thats all. Otherwise, it doesn't explain why racism is low because its not low. Im not saying its very high either, but its certainly common enough to be cause for alarm. thats why im not so alarmed about UK because although its not low here either, its not extremely high, and the UK govt is quite dedicated to stamping it out.
On the other hand, singapore has a similiar level of racism, but it is denied, people tend to think its the situation is better than it is, they don't have a proper understanding of how racism includes, BY DEFINATION, racist attitudes, and there is no dedication within the govt to stamp out racist by encouraging people to report incidents, no matter how small.
similar level? which level? toilet level? you can flush that argument away coz our toilets are a whole lot cleaner than those of the UK. -
Frankly, i suspect the real reason why Heng is so biased towards UK
is that gay marriage is legal there.
'She' has probably found a gay angmoh partner there. Haha.
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More news headlines on UK racism:
Screwdriver attack man speaks out
A man left disabled by a racist attacker who stabbed him with a screwdriver speaks of his ordeal. - 20/02/2006
Racist e-mail punishments blasted
Punishments handed out to officers in a racist email scandal are criticised by a black officers group.- 19/02/2006
Teenager punched in racist attack
A 15-year-old Asian girl is punched to the ground by two girls during a "vicious, unprovoked racial assault".- 13/02/2006
Man is stabbed in 'racist' attack
A man is treated in hospital after what is believed to be a racially motivated attack in Greater Manchester.- 12/02/2006
Head-to-head: Racism in the media
Two people with differing views discuss police chief Sir Ian Blair accusation the media is institutionally racist in its reporting of murders. - 27/01/2006
Met chief accuses media of racism
Metropolitan police chief Sir Ian Blair accuses media of "institutional racism" in its reporting of murders. - 26/01/2006
Racist email sent after bombings
A man is fined for sending a racist email to a Muslim charity three weeks after the London bombings. - 18/01/2006
Two held over 'racist stabbing'
Two men are arrested after a 30-year-old Bangladeshi man is stabbed and robbed in Ashford. - 07/01/2006
Tyres slashed in racist vandalism
Cars belonging to members of the Asian community in Edinburgh are targeted in a spate of incidents. - 05/01/2006
Racists targeting Indian family
An Indian family who moved to Merseyside to work in the NHS say they are being targeted by racists. - 22/12/2005
School racist incident confirmed
An independent report finds racist abuse happened at a Shropshire primary school and improvements need to be made. - 22/12/2005
Courts 'failing to pursue racism'
Courts are reluctant to push the issue of racially motivated crimes, a leading member of NI's Asian community says. - 16/12/2005
Star racially abused during panto
Former Three Degrees singer Sheila Ferguson is subjected to racist heckling during a panto performance. - 08/12/2005
Youths attack schoolboy in park
A 15-year-old boy is assaulted by three youths and hit with a wooden stick in what police believe was a racist attack. - 03/12/2005
Murder 'proves racism exists'
The killing of black student Anthony Walker has highlighted race relations problems on Merseyside. - 30/11/2005
Anthony died 'doing right thing'
The racist thugs who murdered black student Anthony Walker seized an "opportunity" to kill the teenager. - 30/11/2005
Medics targeted in 'race attacks'
Indian medical staff recruited to work at a Manchester hospital complain they are being targeted by racists. -30/11/2005
Couple claim city attack 'racist'
A young couple attacked on a night out at the weekend believe racism was the motive. -28/11/2005
Pcs on trial over racist attack
A teenager was hit across the head and racially abused when policemen were called to a break-in, a court hears. -28/11/2005
Unions stage march against racism
People march through Glasgow in a show of solidarity against the problem of racism in Scotland. - 26/11/2005
Race prosecutions rise by quarter
The number of people prosecuted for racist offences in Lancashire has gone up by almost a quarter. - 14/11/2005
Police investigate racist attack
A gang armed with bottles attack students leaving a religious celebration. - 14/11/2005
Racism laws 'failing for years'
Decades of anti-racism laws have failed to tackle the root causes of prejudice, according to a new book. - 08/11/2005
Racist Pc abused Asian motorists
A police officer who worked for a private car clamping company is found guilty of racial abuse. -26/10/2005
Racist vandal captured on camera
Police set up a CCTV camera to catch images of a man spraying racist graffiti at Manchester Airport. -21/10/2005
Underpass attacks by racist gang
One gang of about 15 youths is thought to be behind a series of violent racially-motivated attacks. -13/10/2005
Drug row nurse sent racist letter
A former nurse who won a battle to get a breasst cancer drug on the NHS is sent a racist and abusive letter. -08/10/2005
Four charged over racist attacks
Four men are charged in connection wtih a series of racist attacks in south-east London. -01/10/2005
Does segregation lead to racism?
Amid claims that racism is reaching a critical point in Britain, Mark Simpson examines race relations in Bradford. -22/09/2005
Petrol attack treated as 'racist'
A petrol bomb attack on a house in County Armagh is being treated as "racially motivated", police say. -14/09/2005
Racism campaign is 'ineffective'
The Scottish Executive's efforts to stamp out racism are being "drowned out", according to a charity. -02/09/2005 -
These are only since last august/september last year.
not even 6 mths ago.
And they have so many abuses and murder cases.
And there is even a case on a police officer and one on the media.
Actual URLs can be found from a simple "racism" search on BBC.
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a few more:
Attack leaves students frightened
International students are staying inside at night after one of their classmates was set upon in a racist attack.
» 80% relevance | 31/08/2005 | similar stories
Student dies in racist axe attack
Police hunt the killers of an 18-year-old student killed in a racist axe attack on Merseyside.
» 88% relevance | 31/07/2005 | similar stories
Three charged over racist attack
Three men are charged with an alleged racist attack on a group of Asian people.
» 88% relevance | 24/07/2005 | similar stories
Racist attack on Asian teenager
Police appeal for information after a 16-year-old is assaulted in broad daylight on an Edinburgh street.
» 82% relevance | 13/07/2005 | similar stories
enough?
Heng, u can go eat your own words and stop arguing that UK is less
racist than Sg or other countries.
Facts speak louder than words.
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Aiyah, what is this racism thing about...
It's everywhere, just have to get used to it and not bother too much.
You can also stand your ground whenever you encounter racism and then move on
Like me, I am looking forward to migrating although I know i will face subtle racism -
i agree...Originally posted by LazerLordz:round and round it goes.
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Where do you intend to go? Europe?Originally posted by Coquitlam:Aiyah, what is this racism thing about...
It's everywhere, just have to get used to it and not bother too much.
You can also stand your ground whenever you encounter racism and then move on
Like me, I am looking forward to migrating although I know i will face subtle racism -
Let's put it this way.
Regardless where we go, we will face racism. It's just a question of how bad it is.
However, is racism the reason we migrate? NO
I think the #1 reason for Singaporeans to migrate is that we perceive we have better opportunity abroad. I think no amount of racism exhibit by the host country will put him/her off. Moreover, the countries where it's perceived to have better opportunities aren't really very racist.
Racism is definitely not a strong repulsion factor to a host country. -
One more reason to migrate - no estate duty so my children inherits everything.
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so I'm biased towards Australia because I can express my dislike with my leaders fair and square with Tooheys in my hand?Originally posted by NuLife:Frankly, i suspect the real reason why Heng is so biased towards UK
is that gay marriage is legal there.
'She' has probably found a gay angmoh partner there. Haha.
Maybe.So what's it to you if others find it worthwhile and experience self-growth abroad?Don't sound like the typical record player the MIW love to wheel out from the storeroom of oddities. -
Originally posted by NuLife:Frankly, i suspect the real reason why Heng is so biased towards UK
is that gay marriage is legal there.
'She' has probably found a gay angmoh partner there. Haha.
The central theme is each of us abroad finds our new home a lesser evil than Singapore. Nulife, you should focus why we think Singapore is the greater evil instead. Stop insinuating things about HENG@. It's rude and it's out of point with this thread. Perhaps you are one of the reasons why HENG@ wants to leave Singapore - obnoxious narrow-minded Singaporeans.Originally posted by LazerLordz:so I'm biased towards Australia because I can express my dislike with my leaders fair and square with Tooheys in my hand?
Maybe.So what's it to you if others find it worthwhile and experience self-growth abroad? Don't sound like the typical record player the MIW love to wheel out from the storeroom of oddities. -
That is precisely why i did what i didOriginally posted by geodome:it's out of point with this thread.
to make Heng Shut Up once and for all with his constant grandmother long story debate on UK racism which is getting so out of point.
Please stop this side topic endless debate on racism and get back to the thread topic.
If the real intention is misintepretated again, I can't help it either. -
Originally posted by geodome:The central theme is each of us abroad finds our new home a lesser evil than Singapore. Nulife, you should focus why we think Singapore is the greater evil instead. Stop insinuating things about HENG@. It's rude and it's out of point with this thread. Perhaps you are one of the reasons why HENG@ wants to leave Singapore - obnoxious narrow-minded Singaporeans. resorting to names calling and generalization now, that makes Nulife a better person.
Like any other countries, singapore may be hell for some, but it is a home for us. Some don't like it here, many are applying for citizenship. Why people leave? easier to make it there or cannot make it here? we respect their decision, and what you think doesn't really matter.
singapore is also a place for all races, speaking all kinds of languages, embracing all kinds of religions, so those who cannot tahan some religions, discriminate against mainland chinese, ... this is not the place for you. We are glad that you have found a better home, it is good for us also. -
Had been trying to get out of this racism side topic.Originally posted by geodome:Nulife, you should focus why we think Singapore is the greater evil instead.
Scroll upwards and read my other post.
Everyone focus on why Sg is an evil place.
Its so easy to complain. The grass is always greener on the otherside.
There will always be push and pull reasons.
I am trying to see it from more realistic world view and explain why we are the way we are now and appreciate what we have and achieved,
instead of just complaining and say things are greener elsewhere.
I can take on the complain role here in this thread though.
Definitely easier right? heehee -
Give him a break. He is only trying to help his friend.Originally posted by sgdiehard: resorting to names calling and generalization now, that makes Nulife a better person.
Like any other countries, singapore may be hell for some, but it is a home for us. Some don't like it here, many are applying for citizenship. Why people leave? easier to make it there or cannot make it here? we respect their decision, and what you think doesn't really matter.
singapore is also a place for all races, speaking all kinds of languages, embracing all kinds of religions, so those who cannot tahan some religions, discriminate against mainland chinese, ... this is not the place for you. We are glad that you have found a better home, it is good for us also.
I dun need to be a good guy either.
Just trying to be logical and realistic with true facts.
Well, geodeme, what if what i said was true? that Heng like UK becos it is a more 'open' country? thus some emotion-related baising there??
Btw, LazerLordz, i dun need to be those MIW record player,
cos if u want me to complain, i have alot to complain too. -
Originally posted by NuLife:
Theres no way we can stop population decline, except import.
there are ways actually. when people feel more secure about their jobs or believe they can afford to give the best for their children, they would have kids. in the end, its still a money issue. you can import instant citizens but these highly mobile citizens come and go very easily. once they've made enough money they would leave. i have an indian coursemate who is also a PR. he has built his own bungalow at home and is planning to go back soon. he says that salaries back home are now almost on par with salaries in singapore and to think he's paid well above our national average. the agu soccer player made a bloody fool of all of us. that's what you get when you use $ to buy imports - $ faced imports who have no second thoughts about leaving.
Statistically though, it is one way for bigger local market for small businesses and more talents.
Another shortcut to more talents of course is by import, as we all know.
because a land is rich and provides much food, it therefore supports a large population. here we are doing the reverse, we grow a large population in the hope that more hands would reap more from the land. that is so wrong. as a city succeeds, it grows, not the other way round. a bigger population may mean a bigger market but no matter how we grow our market, it will never compare with those of china's or america's. today's globalised world means it is easier to go where the markets are then to try and create markets out of nothing.
In Europe, a number of grandpa/grandma age elderlies have degrees, not so true here.
but the grandpa, grandmas in europe are not working. they've long retired and happily enjoying their retirement.
Another pt is, being at the right time of modern human civilisation's industrial changes and at the right place offer the best opportunity to build economy out of it. And the western countries had had the best opportunity in the last century. They were politically more peaceful and values different which promotes scientific and technological advancement which helps their economy.
i beg to differ, the last century saw the western countries embroiled in two world wars, so these weren't peaceful times for them either. but i do agwee they had a good headstart and its hard to catch up.
Holland's Philips invented the flourenscent light which is the basis of their business even til today.
but Philips could never grow out of fluoresent lights and lost terribly against Matsushita in the war for VCRs. now that oil prices are going sky high and energy conservation is becoming important, fluorescent lights may give way to LED lights. what then for Philips?
Germany's strength in heavy industry comes from the time when steam engines and planes were invented.
but germany wasn't the only country exposed to steam engines and planes. what about the country that invented steam engines? why wasn't great britain as successful as germany in heavy industry? opportunity isn't the only thing, character of a nation and its people matters more.
Intel was started at a time when transistors were invented in AT&T. (if im not wrong)
but Motorola and IBM were already giants before intel came along. surely it was more than just being there that led Intel to succeed where Motorola and IBM have failed?
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were at a place and time when microprocessors were being introduced to the world.
so too were Word Perfect and Novell. yes bill and steve were at the right place and time but they were also the right persons.
Finland's Nokia seized opportunity on the mobile phone analog to GSM digital trend.
nokia did not seize the GSM opportunity, it created it. conditions in finland were just right for mobile telephony to take root.
(I can't say much about Switzerland, its also known an overly expensive place to live)
Jus some examples.
you can mention Nestle and ABB. all of europe is by and large expensive (from a SGD perspective not from a EURO perspective).
Here, we have our own problems to settle, infrastructures and system to build before we can catchup. We are really a young nation.
you can compare with any city, we have the best infrastructures in the world. what we really need is to understand where our real problem is. we have reached a stage where there are so many talents controlled and limited by so few not-so-talented, the entire nation suffers as a consequence.
Nevertheless, wrt the scholar system, we can see the government is beginning to realise that and is changing its policies.
Thus the recent focus on Entrepeneurship, sports, R&D etc etc.
Better late than never. Its all parts and parcel of a maturing nation and society.
but are we seeing a real, fundamental change? or are we seeing a change in the soup but not the underlying ingredients? you see, we used to reward smart people, now we are rewarding some other kinds of people. we are still trying to dictate who is more important, who should get more rewards. we're still trying to control society, we're still communist.
only when we stop all these can we truly mature. only when we are free to excel in whatever we choose to endeavour in and not those that happen to be promoted by the govt can we truly evolve into the realm of first world.
Personally, on a side note, I feel, the 'Culture of society' is the most important factor in ensuring lasting growth and success.
Here, we have alot to improve and learn from US, Japan, Korea etc.
Eg the culture of excellence, culture of celebrating dare devils, culture of accepting talents whichever race/country they are from, culture of providing space for dreamers to try and fail etc etc.
Again here, I do feel that we have also been improving esp over the last few years.
culture of excellence i agwee. culture of celebrating dare devils not quite agwee. culture of accepting talents wherever they're from - not really so. using the examples you provided, japan and korea are almost homogeneous in their population makeup so accepting foreign talents certainly isn't their key success factor.
My personal view is that MM had been most relevant at his time.
As for our SM, I dun agree to much of the things that happened when he was PM,
especially on how much property prices and living std increased during his terms.
I feel, the overly high living std we have now are really the result of our SM Goh.
i'm in no position to say who is relevant but my opinion is they're the same team. whatever decisions they make, they make collectively. no decision is taken without the explicit knowledge of the rest. since none in the team could predict the adverse outcome, we the common folks suffer the consequences of their bad decisions.
For those who refuse to work hard, i say they can never survive even in another country for long.
Because to some extent, we have to acknowledge that cheap labour is a global problem.
we have some kind of indian caste system here where kings will always be kings and beggars always beggars. no matter how hard the beggar works he remains a beggar. under such circumstances who would work hard? so the beggar chooses to leave this unfair society and seek a new life elsewhere where hard work matters more than sucking up.
However, we shld also be reminded that quality of local graduates is also a problem.
what is the determining factor of local graduate quality? local universities? is the quality of local graduates properly assessed? or are we using ferrarris as delivery vans?
In this age of globalisation and china/india rise, being cosmopolitian can be our advantage.
to ride the china, india waves successfully, it is more important to go where the wave is then to try and bring the wave here. hence if riding the china/india rise is the ultimate purpose, then being cosmopolitan here serves little purpose. -
in any case, it is still wrong to hurl personal insults. if we can't avoid retaliating to insults, we should at least try not to start them.Originally posted by NuLife:That is precisely why i did what i did
to make Heng Shut Up once and for all with his constant grandmother long story debate on UK racism which is getting so out of point.
Please stop this side topic endless debate on racism and get back to the thread topic.
If the real intention is misintepretated again, I can't help it either.
this side topic is certainly an unecessary diversion. but i hope i'm entitled to my replies.