Many Singaporeans migrating....How come???
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Over the years we have to admit that the law here does not really protect the employees but the employers.
No one dare say anything when a batch of people get retrench, no riot. But this does not means we are happy here. Just because of the law implications. 7yrs jail. who dares to.
Over here, they can rejects gals to engineering line just cos of gender, in overseas u can sue the company if they reject u just for gender after they have invited u for a few rounds of interviews. i tried before when i first grad and a japan make me go for 3 interviews, do 3 tests in all each lasting abt 3 hrs testing all i have learnt and only to hear from them that they never wanted a female in the first place. I was so frustrated backthen cos they have not only wasted my time but make a fool out of me. another 14 such interviews i gave up.
Another japan company even suggest i trial for 1 week to repair 200 machines for their factory and then look at my chest saying " btw i dun think u can squeeze through". I was so mad back then.
Then i switched line to accounts instead.
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Originally posted by HENG@:
actually, to be very honest? I've seen more graffiti on the back of Sg cubicle doors than UK. So i don't think u can say that..
so your annecdotal evidence gives you the right to deny what i said based on my anecdoctal experience? if you can say what your experience tells you, then why can't i say what my experience tells me?
without definations, how can u even classify what is racism? We need definations or anything can be racism and anything can also not be racism. Perhaps we need to remember that the problem with UK, one which I definately find a problem, is that crime rate is higher, especially violent crime. When within a society, violent crime is more common, so does this become a manifestation not only for racism, but also for sexism, religionism, homophobia, and other discriminatory attitudes.
yes but we also need to understand deifnitions properly. many words have double meanings, including racism. racism the mentality is very distinct from racism the deed. yes you're right, crime rate in general is higher in the UK, including violent crime, sexism ... and racism. that's why racism is indeed more common in the UK, as are most other crime types.
The bottomline is, as long as there are such racist attitudes within people, whether they manifest themselves as cases of violence where u can easily identify a victim and a culprit, or as cases of "mild" action where its hard to identify a victim and culprit, and thus harder to act on, people WILL be affected by it, their quality of life lowered, and hurt will happen. It doesn't matter HOW racism is manifested. As long as it is manifested in some way, it must be treated with the strictest authority.
dun agwee. on the one hand, toilet graffitti is simply good for laughs, on the other hand outright racial abuse in broad daylight inflicts real pain and suffering.
it does matter. racist attitudes existing in people's minds but subjugated by higher human influences like conscience, religion, upbringing or education means racism never becomes manifested in real life.
And that unfriendly stare u are talking about? Its prevalent in Singapore alright. U just need to know where to go. Any non-malay who got stared at by a gang of Malay teens late at night walking along HDB void decks, or non-chinese who got "tiao" by a bunch of chinese ah bengs n lians, can testify to.
what i more commonly hear of is malays beating up malays and chinese beating up chinese ...
Sorry I disagree as well. I do not think the definations are mutually exclusive. They are mutually inclusive. And if u agree that a belief or attitude is racism, then no matter how basic a level u believe it to be, it still counts as racism. Item 2 is not what I normally consider racism. I consider racism as inclusive of both 1 and 2. And I don't tolerate either. I don't see why we should have to tolerate one and not the other. As long as 1 exists, 2 will always be manifested in some severity.
no problems. many words have double or triple meanings. since the dictionary bothers to differentiate the definitions into 1 and 2, 1 and 2 are indeed distinct from each other so while they are both classified under the umbrella term racism, racism the thought is distinct from racism the act, much like flashing and rape are both sexual offences but are entirely different. 1 is one component of our composite rationality that includes other influences good and bad. given we're no saints, 1 is merely a component of the imperfection we are as human beings. 2 is a manifestation of 1 that has reared its ugly end and let loose uncontrollably. so while you have fantasies about someone, the fact that you're controlled and do not commit acts of sin doesn't make you a criminal. you may be no saint, but neither are you as deplorable as a criminal. that distinction has to be maintained, otherwise everyone would be in jail by now.
Ok while I agree with u that based on an individual case level, comparing ONE case of wall scribbling to ONE case of assault would make an assault more serious. But if u look at it from a wider social pt of view, an assault is actually easier to crack down on, as there are definative victims and culprits. In the case of scribblings, they are not only more widespread, it is harder to identify AND quantify the number of victims AND culprits, and it is virtually impossible to act on it. In fact because there is virtually no way we can act on the scribblings, they end up foistering more covert racist hatred. I have to wonder why racist hatred simmering quietly under the surface can be said to be any better than racist hatred sporadically bursting into the open. Just like forest fires, what u can see, u can fight. What u can't see, such as underground peat fires, not only u can't fight, it can burst into life at the least expected moment, and cause more damage than anyone ever imagined.
your entire argument rests with your single annecdoctal evidence that toilet scribblings are more prevalent here. since your annecdoctal evidence is as good as mine and mine counters yours, you really do not have much weight except your own opiniated judgement in saying that the underground peat fire here is burning much more strongly. truth is, just about every square inch of underground real estate here has already been converted to tunnels, malls, ammo dumps and bomb shelters. if there's any peat fire glowing from beneath, its where you're standing right now.
I hold the view that be it racist attitudes, or racist actions, both are VERY damaging, and in fact, as a racist attutude is the bedrock of racist actions, we should be wary more of racist attitudes more than racist actions, regardless of what is defined by the dictionary.
racial attitudes, if they're not deeply entrenched and are overidden by stronger influences like conscience, religion, upbringing will not in any way damage anything. racist actions directly cause harm and damage. they are very different. -
both. if racism is as rife as you say, then within any category of crime, we would find higher incidences of interracial crimes as opposed to intra-racial crimes. but do we find that in practice here? we don't. therefore social and other influences not only suppresses crime rates, they also suppress racism. in other words, UK can become stricter but if they don't teach racial tolerance, even if their overall assault cases go down, the proportion of assaults attributable to racism will not.Originally posted by HENG@:upbringing, religion, social fabric or education, with regards to actual crime or moral crimes? From young we are taught we cannot fight or hit others. And we are stricter with discipline. Thats what makes a difference, with regards to all violent crime, racially motivated or not. I bet if the people here were stricter with their kids, the number of racial assaults would go down too. But does that mean racism is really lowered? I don't think so. So neither do I think that a lack of racial assaults means there is no racism in sg.
so yes, lack of racial assaults when assaults do happen suggests racism is not rife here. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
to this, i have to say read A Singaporean Too's letter again CAREFULLY.
no time really, anyway you choose to interpret the letter your way, I see it in another way.
u misunderstand him. he is saying that what singaporean chinese experience in western countries is only a fraction of the racism that singaporean minorities experience as a citizen in their own country(Singapore)
ok, perhaps if he has the opportunity to go through what minorities in britain experienced, he might realise his fraction is very different from the fraction minorities in britain experience.
maybe maybe not. while i do question what he said about hawkers, because i haven't see that happen either, what he said about "Another thing obnoxious about the Chinese Singaporean is their absolute lack of sensitivity toward the minority races. When the conversation is in English, one person will just cut in and start speaking Mandarin so as to deliberately exclude minorities from the conversation." is true, because I have observed this quite a few times before. Of course many times others will remind the offender that there are non-chinese speakers around and remind them to be sensitive and use a common language. This is something that makes me feel heartened about the prospects of improvement of racism within singapore.
the only reason why the british do not "cut into" a conversion amongst different races using their own language is because english is the only language they speak. try going out with a group of French, Spanish, Italian, they cut in just the same. why label us racists on such harmless charge when in fact every human species is guilty of the same act?
yes we can. These are private grieviances, not proper official reports. If they think that they have been subject to racism, why not make a report? Perhaps they have an inkling that they don't actually have a case? I don't know.
you can because you are encouraged by the UK govt to report anything, even private grievances. hence you are crying racism only as easily as the authorities would allow or encrouage you to, not as easily as you would want to.
Oh incidently I had my 1st slightly "racist" encounter yesterday. I was invited to a karaoke session by some HK people. The whole time it was cantonese songs and they all spoke cantonese except my friend who spoke english to me. How ironic that Chinese people can feel excluded by other Chinese, but I just choose to see it as due to them feeling uncomfortable conversing in English. Of course when you look at it, when even a fellow chinese feels excluded and "cliqued" out, u don't expect the whites to feel all warm and fuzzy about them. Then its easy for them to think that the whites are being racist against them.
strangely, you're understanding towards hongkies being 'racist', understanding towards angmohs being 'racist' yet you cannot tolerate your fellow singaporean being 'racist', when in actual fact they are all the same? what is wrong?
To be honest, perhaps the problem in UK is more one of national identity, not racism.
why such a nicely worded term for the UK and not for Singapore? are you completely unbiased?
Never underestimate the power of racism. I'm not actually saying its serious. I'm saying we should be concerned about it because its more serious than we think. To put this into perspective, for eg, I will say on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being most serious, Singapore's racism is not serious, meaning lower than 5. Lets say theoratically, its actual rating is 3. Most people in Singapore think its rating is only 1. This is what I mean by more serious than people think. Sure on an absolute scale, it might not be that serious, but it shouldn't be underestimated. And like I said, as long as the bedrock for racist actions exist, we should always be wary. Complacency is always one of the 1st factors leading to downfall.
you think it's 3, other people thinks its 1, so be it. there are other things that are 9 or 10, like being retrenched at 40, both parents forced to slave long hours so much so that kids are neglected and ending up delinquent ... -
Originally posted by HENG@:
is that what your intelligent brain can come up with? only a proper cunt would say a thing like that.
this is what i meant. you may not have started it, but your retaliation is equally abusive ...
facts? what do you know about facts? 35 for one month in a country of 60 million is a lot ah? Even if u tell me 3500 in a month in a country of 60 million, its still 0.00583%. Even if i give u another x10 factor and assume 35,000 in one month, it still doesn't hit 1%.
i believe it was 400 for one small english town of perhaps 1/2 a million to 1 million people. also, if there are only 400 foreigners in this small town with 400 racism cases, isn't this terribly bad? -
why, what happened to your Original SUPER ABUSIVE PostsssOriginally posted by HENG@:WHY? U WANT TO KNOW WHY? HERE IS WHY. YES ITS BECAUSE ITS MORE OPEN. HOW SO? I CAN PURSUE THE CAREER I WANT, I CAN DO WHAT I LOVE AS A JOB. IS THERE A MOTORSPORT INDUSTRY IN SINGAPORE? NO. ARE THERE UNDERGRAD LEVEL COURSES FOR MOTORSPORT AND AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERING? NO. SO YES I AM HERE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO DO AND THAT IS WHAT I WANT AS A CAREER, AND BECAUSE UK IS THE HOME OF INTERNATIONAL MOTORSPORTS, SO IT MAKE SENSE TO TRY FOR A CAREER IN MOTORSPORTS HERE.
BUT I DID NOT COME HERE THINKING THAT EVERYTHING IS ALL GOOD AND GOLDEN HERE. I CAME HERE APPREHENSIVE ABOUT WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE. I KEEP HEARING HORROR STORIES PEOPLE TOLD ME ABOUT RACISM BEFORE I CAME HERE. BUT THRU MY EXPERIENCE HERE THE PAST 15 MONTHS, I REALISE THAT RACISM IS NOT AS EXTREME AS EVERYONE HAS BEEN EXAGERRATING, OK? SO WHATEVER MY OPINION IS OF RACISM IN UK, IS BECAUSE OF MY EXPERIENCES HERE. IF LONG LONG AGO U ENCOUNTERED RACISM HERE, THATS YOUR ERA. U CAN'T JUST SIT IN SG AND LOOK FOR RACISM CASES ONLINE AND JUDGE THIS PLACE BASED ON THAT. AND CAN U STOP WITH THE PERSONAL INSULTS AND INSINUATIONS. I'M BLOODY SICK AND TIRED OF THEM, AND OF YOU INSULTING MY HONOR.
with all the Obscene Swearing, Insults and Name calling???
trying to undo what you had done quietly and make others think im really the bad guy here???
jus becos i admit my little mistake too easily?? hiaaa
really wonder how bad my fairly logical two line comment is compared to yours all these while. hiaaaaa.
anyways...peace ok..
i accept your attempt to undo your mistake...be it personal or other reasons..
i dun mind being the bad and stupid guy here. -
i believe the real thinking behind this is not so direct.
because a land is rich and provides much food, it therefore supports a large population. here we are doing the reverse, we grow a large population in the hope that more hands would reap more from the land. that is so wrong. as a city succeeds, it grows, not the other way round. a bigger population may mean a bigger market but no matter how we grow our market, it will never compare with those of china's or america's. today's globalised world means it is easier to go where the markets are then to try and create markets out of nothing.
on second thoughts i dun quite agree.
to ride the china, india waves successfully, it is more important to go where the wave is then to try and bring the wave here. hence if riding the china/india rise is the ultimate purpose, then being cosmopolitan here serves little purpose.
our multiracial background allow us to do business with china, india and west
more easily.
On that switzerland argument..
i had talked to some swiss and german people before...
it seems that switzerland is like singapore.
with people from neighbouring countries coming in to work becos of the high
exhange rate. but switzerland itself is becoming too expensive to live. -
Originally posted by jusgal:
That is sooo true....
Over the years we have to admit that the law here does not really protect the employees but the employers.
was it becos its a japanese company??
Over here, they can rejects gals to engineering line just cos of gender, in overseas u can sue the company if they reject u just for gender after they have invited u for a few rounds of interviews. i tried before when i first grad and a japan make me go for 3 interviews, do 3 tests in all each lasting abt 3 hrs testing all i have learnt and only to hear from them that they never wanted a female in the first place. I was so frustrated backthen cos they have not only wasted my time but make a fool out of me. another 14 such interviews i gave up.
Another japan company even suggest i trial for 1 week to repair 200 machines for their factory and then look at my chest saying " btw i dun think u can squeeze through". I was so mad back then.
Then i switched line to accounts instead.
you know.. japanese men...?? haa
seriously, i had heard from friends working in jap companies here
complaining of some really 'dark' internal culture. -
I agree with you.Originally posted by THE ANALYST:Dont give Heng too hard a time.
Heng has every right to pursue ambition and dreams in another country if our country cannot provide the facilities and services and support.
Especially something like motor sports.
And it hardly seems fair to hurl personal insults at Heng.
We should just keep topics discussion as is and not go to the extreme of personal insults. -
OMG, can't believe this dumb question of a thread is still ongoing.
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Originally posted by NuLife:
i feel, $$ is far from the only reason nowadays.
Modernization had also meant many have greater expectations in their partners and the std they want to provide for their kids.
expectations have gone up means need more $$, hence money no enough. gone are the days when we as kids led simple lives with simple needs so much so our folks can bring up four or five of us.
Many ended up being singles or childless by chioce nowadays.
And sometimes, these the really more well-off ones.
our society aims to produce elites. there can only be a handful of elites. every lady wants to marry an elite, so those that can't end up single ... again a direct consequence of govt policies ...
On nokia, im not too sure abt GSM. Cos my understanding is that communnication std like 3G,
its really the consolidated work of scientist all over the world with a world commitee that does the selection and standardization process.
Not too sure abt Gsm time.
Nvtheless, the pt is, nokia spotted the change in communication trend and seize it.
And being in europe where much standardization and research are done, they have good opportunity too.
ok. what i gathered was that because of the remoteness of many nordic towns and cities, cost of laying telephone cables was extremely high, which forced the scandinavians to invent (or maybe revolutionalise) wireless telecommunication. in addition, because there is no such thing as govt protection, scandinavian companies - including nokia, had to compete for consumers which led to the best standards, services and prices possible. these high standards then easily became the standards acceptable to countries all over the world.
Is the first world std defined by the west?
my own opinion is we have very different race mixture and values.
We can never be the same as the west even as we progress.
If we follow exactly how the west is run, we may be in trouble.
defined by standard of living which at present is led by the west (plus japan of course). culturally, we need not be the same, but the formula for economic success is pretty much the same - competitiveness arising out of a superior workforce and favourable business conditions.
japan/korea = examples of culture of excellence
US = culture of accepting talents wherever they're from
can guess what i mean right?
culture of excellence = culture of success, hence culture of accepting talents wherever they're from isn't the only route to success.
im not too sure. many countries are like tat too or even worse.
the rich are getting richer and poors are getting poorer ..and everywhere seemed to be so now.
to be optimistic, spore is alot better than some countries already.
not so in many first world countries, particularly europe and japan where everyone, even the bottom most rung in society, enjoy a fairly decent standard of living. in other words, their social structure is mostly flat, without too much of elites excesses nor needy poor.
perhaps i shld rephrase..the culture of society and education system.. makes students focus on result instead of knowledge and skills...
why do you think the education sector is undergoing tremendous changes lately??? (apart from the growing $$opportunity in providing courses for foreign students that is)
seems to me the change is superficial. NUS hit worldwide rankings recently and was over the moon with the results. so the university itself is pre-possessed with results even today. that means jacking up fees to bring in renowned professors and researchers to boost faculty and research scores but these highly illustrious academics may not be the most passionate in teaching and maybe more inclined in their own research. research outcomes are published under their names and when they go, so too does their research findings. what are we left with? -
Originally posted by NuLife:
i believe the real thinking behind this is not so direct.
yes the thinking is not so straight forward, maybe that's why our leaders don't get it.
our multiracial background allow us to do business with china, india and west
more easily.
then what is the argument for being more cosmopolitan for?
On that switzerland argument..
i had talked to some swiss and german people before...
it seems that switzerland is like singapore.
with people from neighbouring countries coming in to work becos of the high
exhange rate. but switzerland itself is becoming too expensive to live.
switzerland is anything but like singapore. its a landscape of snow capped mountains and skiing resorts - the sleepy, idyllic kind devoid of energy and vitality. because 3/4 of switzerland is german, you find that international flow of talents really revolves around just three countries - germany, switzerland and austria, with switzerland paying the highest salaries and austria the cheapest to live in. in any case, you will never find the same hustle and bustle that you find here in singapore. the same can be said of the rest of europe with the exception of maybe london.
hence, if a country can succeed without being overly cosmopolitan, we being an already cosmopolitan city need not strive to become even more cosmopolitan. what we need is to lift our GLCs to become truly global MNCs that can harness the labour and market powers all over the world, like the swiss have done ... -
Originally posted by HENG@:
"my friend was just deprived of going to cambodia for a project because she's muslim"
maybe the authorities were concerned about anti-muslim attitudes in cambodia, which means the racists are actually cambodians!
"your argument is valid, even in singapore, NUS for that matter, the singapore-chinese students here do not like the PRC-chinese because the PRC-chinese stick to their own groups"
again annecdoctal as i was in NUS and we had absolutely no problems with the PRCs. if they tend to stick to themselves, how can they give problems to anybody else?
"he says that singaporeans accept PRCs, filipinos and etc. did he hear about the poly student's lashing on PRC students? and has he been to NUS? if he did, he would frequently hear remarks made against PRC"
maybe poly students in general aren't as mature or enlightened?
"and singaporeans accept that filipinos are their maids a.k.a paid slaves. that's derogatory acceptance. if singaporeans treat filipinos as equals, they won't pay them peanuts, give them more constitutional protection and not abuse them."
yes that's ugly, but filipinos in UK, middle east, everywhere else are treated like princesses?
also when i asked the same person who studies in NUS before she read this thread, if she thought UK was an extremely racist country, she said no. When I told her that someone keeps insisting it is, u know what her instant reaction to that is?
"tell him that there are more cases of racism in singapore"
they say birds of the same feather flock together, perhaps the reason why your friend is your friend is because you two share the same thinking. try asking some arbitrary stranger on the streets.
I don't care if nobody gets beaten up in Singapore due to race. If it rears its ugly head in other forms, it counts, and its bad, and we should do something about it instead of hiding from the truth and saying "no no no its non existant"
that's the thing, you really don't care what other people thinks. is that tolerance? tolerance that is at the root of racial harmony? somehow, i find it very hard to associate abusiveness and aggressiveness with racial tolerance. -
Originally posted by snow leopard:
haha... i rather not comment on the rising expectation of ladies here
our society aims to produce elites. there can only be a handful of elites. every lady wants to marry an elite, so those that can't end up single ... again a direct consequence of govt policies ...
being linked to the government...
i think we are drifting away from the main topic...haha
accepting talents definitely isnt the one route to success.
culture of excellence = culture of success, hence culture of accepting talents wherever they're from isn't the only route to success.
but it is extremely important esp for a small country.
(differentiate this from cheap labour)
even japan has realise recently that opening up to foriegn talents is
very critical for them now.
sony's new CEO is an american. and they recently brought in an ex-apple software engineer to re-structure their software divisions.
samsung just paid one ex-ipod software designer, to now help create their ipod competitor.
perhaps we can say culture of excellence first priority,
without which opening up to talents also no use.
im not really sure.
not so in many first world countries, particularly europe and japan where everyone, even the bottom most rung in society, enjoy a fairly decent standard of living. in other words, their social structure is mostly flat, without too much of elites excesses nor needy poor.
european's welfare systems is also under fire now.
japan is well-known for its ridiculous living cost, esp housing and ridiculouswork culture.
thou i have to agree the elite system in sg has flaws.
in every society, there will be needy poors.
how bad is it in europe compare to sg, i really do not know enough to say
which is better or worse.
if we implement something like 40percent tax here (which someone had suggested) like the some parts of the west, in order to get better welfare system, i expect lots of opposition.
hmm... i brought that up to illustrate why i said grads quality are not up to std.
seems to me the change is superficial. NUS hit worldwide rankings recently and was over the moon with the results. so the university itself is pre-possessed with results even today. that means jacking up fees to bring in renowned professors and researchers to boost faculty and research scores but these highly illustrious academics may not be the most passionate in teaching and maybe more inclined in their own research. research outcomes are published under their names and when they go, so too does their research findings. what are we left with?
dunno if we are side tracking too much from the main topic.. but anyway...
i can only partly agree with what u just pointed out.
its all the same in UK and Aust university.
Yes they are damn blooody overpaid here.
perhaps only a few are making contributions only.
at the same time, do u think we have enough good local lecturers/professors??
i wish to point out one thing, on the value such research
professors can bring.. which i had personally gained alot...
with such professors, whose work involve the latest industry changing field, they bring to the students not just the depth of the knowledge,
but the exposure to new perspectives. a kind of world class industry perspective. which is essential for 'thinking big', 'thinking far', and wanting to make a difference in industry or society.
when i was in UK, some of my professors were world leading researchers
in fields such eg 3G, digital video, and various computer fields.
some former grads who were given honorary doctorates came back to give seminars to share their visions and thinking.
they truly open up ones' mind.
instead of being another engineer, they inspire us to be become thinking technologists. (but whether one can absorb such ideas and whether the industry can create opportunities for such people, are another matter..haa)
however, i wish to add, there are only few such professors. i was only
fortunate to have met some.
also, i would guess most sg average undergrad students can't really gain much from these. perhaps the masters and phds students will benefit more.
so yes, i agree most are perhaps underqualified and overpaid.
but for few others, i say their contibutions is unmeasureable.
betw.. dun u think we are drifting too far away from the main topic?
not good for other readers. -
i dun quite agree on the GLC part.
what we need is to lift our GLCs to become truly global MNCs that can harness the labour and market powers all over the world, like the swiss have done ...
but im busy now. may reply u another time.
cheers -
Originally posted by NuLife:
haha... i rather not comment on the rising expectation of ladies here
being linked to the government...
i think we are drifting away from the main topic...haha
yes, it isn't the direct issue but one that is inter-related, otherwise it wouldn't have cropped up. in any case, it is not so much ladies' expectations have gone up as our society's unrelentless labelling us as winners or losers. ladies if they can't get winners, especially if they themselves are winners, will choose to remain single.
accepting talents definitely isnt the one route to success.
but it is extremely important esp for a small country.
(differentiate this from cheap labour)
while i agwee with what you're saying, there are three billion of us natural born singaporeans here, comparable to finland's population which has produced the likes of nokia, a top ten global firm. so if finland could succeed with largely indigenious talent, it wouldn't be entirely right to say that foreign talent is of overidding importance to a small country.
even japan has realise recently that opening up to foriegn talents is
very critical for them now.
sony's new CEO is an american. and they recently brought in an ex-apple software engineer to re-structure their software divisions.
samsung just paid one ex-ipod software designer, to now help create their ipod competitor.
however, the bulk of japanese and korean talents are still japanese and koreans themselves with foreign imports kept to a minimum and targeted only to key, crucial personnel like the ones you mentioned. here, we've opened the flood gates to any tom, dick or harry, many of whom are really not up to mark and literally living off our country ... including agu ...
my opinion is that our over-reliance on foreign talents simply shows that our institutions and society in general doesn't or isn't conducive for nurturing or recognising talents.
there is one further difference. foreign talents flock to usa and japan to serve american and japanese interests. here, we invite foreign talent to take over the best positions and to be served by locals.
im not really sure.
european's welfare systems is also under fire now.
japan is well-known for its ridiculous living cost, esp housing and ridiculouswork culture.
under fire doesn't mean it is not without its merits. everyone here thinks our system is best. no strikes means we're number 1. but we're simply being dumb ass lambs allowing ourselves to be fleeced easily. when an economic downturn exposes poor leadership in some of our national firms but these weaknesses are covered up by the sacrifices of us common folks, poor leadership continues to manifest itself, hardly the way to achieving competitiveness.
from a singapore point of view yes, things are expensive in japan, but yet you see them spending money like nobody's business so their spending power is really quite fantastic ... ridiculous work culture part i agwee wholeheartedly.
thou i have to agree the elite system in sg has flaws.
in every society, there will be needy poors.
how bad is it in europe compare to sg, i really do not know enough to say
which is better or worse.
if we implement something like 40percent tax here (which someone had suggested) like the some parts of the west, in order to get better welfare system, i expect lots of opposition.
i wasn't referring to the welfare system. i was referring to their social strata, which is quite flat, where most people hold decent jobs that afford decent living.
hmm... i brought that up to illustrate why i said grads quality are not up to std.
dunno if we are side tracking too much from the main topic.. but anyway...
i can only partly agree with what u just pointed out.
and my reply was meant to elucidate the idea that the issue of local grad quality has more to do with incompetent institutions or inadequate nurture and not innate graduate quality.
its all the same in UK and Aust university.
Yes they are damn blooody overpaid here.
perhaps only a few are making contributions only.
at the same time, do u think we have enough good local lecturers/professors??
no, but at the same time we do not need to top up the shortfall with half past six lecturers / professors.
i wish to point out one thing, on the value such research
professors can bring.. which i had personally gained alot...
with such professors, whose work involve the latest industry changing field, they bring to the students not just the depth of the knowledge,
but the exposure to new perspectives. a kind of world class industry perspective. which is essential for 'thinking big', 'thinking far', and wanting to make a difference in industry or society.
bill gates didn't need professors to gain exposure, think big or make a difference. in fact, none of your professors would probably ever make as much difference as bill gates or steve jobs.
when i was in UK, some of my professors were world leading researchers
in fields such eg 3G, digital video, and various computer fields.
some former grads who were given honorary doctorates came back to give seminars to share their visions and thinking.
they truly open up ones' mind.
if you have to be given a vision in order to see, or to have your mind opened before you can think, then i seriously doubt you can create something a lot more revolutionary than what you've been taught to visualise or think.
instead of being another engineer, they inspire us to be become thinking technologists. (but whether one can absorb such ideas and whether the industry can create opportunities for such people, are another matter..haa)
frankly you don't need an expensive professor to teach you to become thinking technologists. was our popiah king taught to operate machines in order to mechanise his business?
however, i wish to add, there are only few such professors. i was only fortunate to have met some. also, i would guess most sg average undergrad students can't really gain much from these. perhaps the masters and phds students will benefit more.
whether it is the average or the distinguished undergrad, the fact they're all mugging theories most of which would find little application in later life means professors, good or bad would be of little use for them. the main reason why masters and phds will benefit more isn't because they're above average but simply because they aren't mugging theories anymore but doing research and learning research from distinguished research professors. in any case, academic researchers seldom can harness their research into enterprising applications with far reaching commerical value.
so yes, i agree most are perhaps underqualified and overpaid. but for few others, i say their contibutions is unmeasureable.
i have yet to hear of any research contribution here that has created a business so lucrative it provided us with ample job opportunities with good income and meaningful work.
betw.. dun u think we are drifting too far away from the main topic?
not good for other readers.
this is not a simple issue with straightforward answers. there are many inter-related issues and if readers understand that, they will not deem them irrelevant. however if they do feel bored, there are many other threads they can read or even post something here they consider more pertinent. -
bigot.Originally posted by NuLife:why, what happened to your Original SUPER ABUSIVE Postsss
with all the Obscene Swearing, Insults and Name calling???
trying to undo what you had done quietly and make others think im really the bad guy here???
jus becos i admit my little mistake too easily?? hiaaa
really wonder how bad my fairly logical two line comment is compared to yours all these while. hiaaaaa.
anyways...peace ok..
i accept your attempt to undo your mistake...be it personal or other reasons..
i dun mind being the bad and stupid guy here.
if u're using what u perceive of someone's sexuality, regardless of what the truth is, to decide if what they say is credible, then u're simply a bigot. Like what someone said, if thats the way u act, it only goes to show u're "innately a very prejudiced person"
as for editing my post. After I cooled down some, I decide to be nicer and watch more of my language. U want to see it as me scheming, go ahead. All this while u've done nothing other than make assumptions about me isn't it? Like u actually care if u're speaking the truth or not. Afterall, U're just out to hurt me emotionally. -
Once again, I will remind u that I use racism to include BOTH racist incidents and racist attitudes. And that attitude is often seen, even if you don't see it much. Ok fine u can think its not serious at all. But like I said, underestimating a problem is often the 1st step to encouraging it to flare up even more. Whether u like it or not, racism is obvious enough to many of the younger generation who, thanks to the govt's efforts in promoting racial harmony, tend to see the small signs that are the tip of the iceberg. Im not just the only one who feels there is more racism in Sg than there should be for such a small country. And being Singaporean, I do wish that the situation would improve, regardless of where I choose to settle. Lack of assaults just mean policing is better in Singapore. It doesn't prevent people from being disallowed to go on overseas community charity work just because they're Malay, or from Singaporean studenrs in NUS making discriminatory remarks agains the PRCs or from Singaporeans looking at Filipinos as nothing better than paid slaves. It wouldn't prevent Malays from having a smaller chance of going to OCS, it wouldn't prevent a lot of racism that has so become our daily life that perhaps u no longer consider them worth noticing or worrying about.Originally posted by snow leopard:both. if racism is as rife as you say, then within any category of crime, we would find higher incidences of interracial crimes as opposed to intra-racial crimes. but do we find that in practice here? we don't. therefore social and other influences not only suppresses crime rates, they also suppress racism. in other words, UK can become stricter but if they don't teach racial tolerance, even if their overall assault cases go down, the proportion of assaults attributable to racism will not.
so yes, lack of racial assaults when assaults do happen suggests racism is not rife here. -
if its so, they would explain it to her?Originally posted by snow leopard:maybe the authorities were concerned about anti-muslim attitudes in cambodia, which means the racists are actually cambodians!
how long ago were u in NUS? The views I get are from people who are in NUS now, and its not just one or 2. Its quite a lot of them. And not just their own personal feelings, but also what they see of other people saying things.Originally posted by snow leopard:again annecdoctal as i was in NUS and we had absolutely no problems with the PRCs. if they tend to stick to themselves, how can they give problems to anybody else?
maybe its not just poly students who aren't as mature or enlightened. And in any case, maturity and enlightenment doesn't make racism into non-racism. also its rather discrminatory to assume that poly students are immature or unenlightened.Originally posted by snow leopard:maybe poly students in general aren't as mature or enlightened?
gee in UK not like royalty, but like part of the population certainly. As for middle east, well, thats racism too isn't it? Just because it happens elsewhere other than SG, doesn't mean its not racism. Its considered racism in the middle east, and it IS considered racism in Singapore. Nach.Originally posted by snow leopard:yes that's ugly, but filipinos in UK, middle east, everywhere else are treated like princesses?
on the contary our views on life can hardly be more different.Originally posted by snow leopard:they say birds of the same feather flock together, perhaps the reason why your friend is your friend is because you two share the same thinking. try asking some arbitrary stranger on the streets
As for arbitary stranger, the chances are as much that they will say yes as they will say no. Remember that letter written by some guy? He is an arbitary stranger to me. But he thinks there is racism in Sg too. Its a folly to say its non-existant in singapore. Granted it might not be as serious elsewhere, but if people in singapore think it doesn't exist, then the problem is more serious than people realise.
1 simple qustion: should we tolerate racism? Its not about what other people think about racism. Its about taking a hardline stand on it. No means no, irregardless of whether its a racist assault, or a snide remark aimed at someone of another race. Zero tolerance to racism. People shouldn't just tolerate differences in race, they should ACCEPT others and their differences in race.Originally posted by snow leopard:that's the thing, you really don't care what other people thinks. is that tolerance? tolerance that is at the root of racial harmony? somehow, i find it very hard to associate abusiveness and aggressiveness with racial tolerance. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
if its so, they would explain it to her?
perhaps, perhaps not.
how long ago were u in NUS? The views I get are from people who are in NUS now, and its not just one or 2. Its quite a lot of them. And not just their own personal feelings, but also what they see of other people saying things.
my ex-classmate recently married his classmate, a fellow doctorate from china so things shouldn't be that bad.
maybe its not just poly students who aren't as mature or enlightened. And in any case, maturity and enlightenment doesn't make racism into non-racism. also its rather discrminatory to assume that poly students are immature or unenlightened.
maturity and enlightenment would've curbed racial thoughts and inhibited the actual manifestation of racism. ok, we don't assume so i'd just say that particular student is immature and unenlightened and the poly student case you brought up is not representative of all other poly students, hence despite the example you gave, racism isn't rife in polys or for that matter singapore.
gee in UK not like royalty, but like part of the population certainly. As for middle east, well, thats racism too isn't it? Just because it happens elsewhere other than SG, doesn't mean its not racism. Its considered racism in the middle east, and it IS considered racism in Singapore. Nach.
not too sure about treatment of maids in UK based on one annecdoctal evidence. anyway, the way maids are being treated here is the way the population is being treated by our rulers - like dirt. so if our kind treats us like dirt, surely you can't expect them to treat foreign maids any better? so if this is racism, then most of us are at the receiving end as well ... except our purported racists are of the same race ...
As for arbitary stranger, the chances are as much that they will say yes as they will say no. Remember that letter written by some guy? He is an arbitary stranger to me. But he thinks there is racism in Sg too. Its a folly to say its non-existant in singapore. Granted it might not be as serious elsewhere, but if people in singapore think it doesn't exist, then the problem is more serious than people realise.
there are many arbitrary strangers. it is not arbitrary that you chose this 'arbitrary' stranger's letter to highlight because you agwee with what he says.
1 simple qustion: should we tolerate racism? Its not about what other people think about racism. Its about taking a hardline stand on it. No means no, irregardless of whether its a racist assault, or a snide remark aimed at someone of another race. Zero tolerance to racism. People shouldn't just tolerate differences in race, they should ACCEPT others and their differences in race.
before we go to that, we need to ask ourselves whether we should tolerate double standards when it comes to racism. should racism committed by the british be excused as one of drunkedness, crime in general, understandable social peculiarities while on the other hand, mild racial jokes scribbled on the backs of toilet doors be ruthlessly condemned? unless we have that sort of equality, we cannot possibly talk about the same sort of tolerance. -
i know by now toilet scribblings are just as bad to you as broad daylight assault. you should also know by now they are worlds apart not only to me but to many other people as well. assaults do happen but the proportion of interracial assaults is too low to sugggest there is racism here. there may be a thousand and one reasons why one is rejected if only we had asked. one discriminatory remark suggests the inmmaturity of that particular student but does not represent the rest nor suggest that the student population in general are racists. filipinos treated like slaves is really no different from us being treated like slaves, hence is not discrimination but nationwide exploitation. fewer malays go to OCS is just like there are no ethnic chinese soldiers in the malaysian armed forces.Originally posted by HENG@:Once again, I will remind u that I use racism to include BOTH racist incidents and racist attitudes. And that attitude is often seen, even if you don't see it much. Ok fine u can think its not serious at all. But like I said, underestimating a problem is often the 1st step to encouraging it to flare up even more. Whether u like it or not, racism is obvious enough to many of the younger generation who, thanks to the govt's efforts in promoting racial harmony, tend to see the small signs that are the tip of the iceberg. Im not just the only one who feels there is more racism in Sg than there should be for such a small country. And being Singaporean, I do wish that the situation would improve, regardless of where I choose to settle. Lack of assaults just mean policing is better in Singapore. It doesn't prevent people from being disallowed to go on overseas community charity work just because they're Malay, or from Singaporean studenrs in NUS making discriminatory remarks agains the PRCs or from Singaporeans looking at Filipinos as nothing better than paid slaves. It wouldn't prevent Malays from having a smaller chance of going to OCS, it wouldn't prevent a lot of racism that has so become our daily life that perhaps u no longer consider them worth noticing or worrying about. -
Nah u don't get it. There is no double standards except on your part. U choose to blow up a few extreme racism cases which are reported in UK and yet choose to ignore widespread signs of subtle racism in Sg. Thats what I mean by, racism in UK is less extreme than people think, and racism in Sg is more alive than most realise. That statement itself does not say, in any way, whether racism in UK is more or less than racism in SG.Originally posted by snow leopard:before we go to that, we need to ask ourselves whether we should tolerate double standards when it comes to racism. should racism committed by the british be excused as one of drunkedness, crime in general, understandable social peculiarities while on the other hand, mild racial jokes scribbled on the backs of toilet doors be ruthlessly condemned? unless we have that sort of equality, we cannot possibly talk about the same sort of tolerance.
In any case, should we simply label suspect cases where racial motives are not clear as racism, and yet ignore the racial aspect of racial graffiti? Because it seems to me that u're willing to lump any case with the slightest whiff of racial-motivation as racist incidents, while u choose to ignore that racial graffiti ARE clearly racially motivated and dismiss them as "mild jokes" -
exactly the same point applies to singaporean students studying here. How many of those who are crying that british are extremely racist have personally been assaulted to make such claims?Originally posted by snow leopard:there may be a thousand and one reasons why one is rejected if only we had asked. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
Nah u don't get it. There is no double standards except on your part.
that's exactly how i feel abt u ...
U choose to blow up a few extreme racism cases which are reported in UK and yet choose to ignore widespread signs of subtle racism in Sg.
no one's blowing up the 400 cases in a small english town. it's reported by the english themselves! your so called widespread cases are merely toilet door scribblings which there're probably lots more in the uk.
Thats what I mean by, racism in UK is less extreme than people think, and racism in Sg is more alive than most realise. That statement itself does not say, in any way, whether racism in UK is more or less than racism in SG.
however, your judgement of what other people thinks is merely a function of your own biasedness. someone thinks like you, you say he thinks alright. someone doesn't think like you, you say there's something he doesn't realise. how do you make yourself to be the authority of judgement that everyone else has to be benchmarked against?
In any case, should we simply label suspect cases where racial motives are not clear as racism, and yet ignore the racial aspect of racial graffiti? Because it seems to me that u're willing to lump any case with the slightest whiff of racial-motivation as racist incidents, while u choose to ignore that racial graffiti ARE clearly racially motivated and dismiss them as "mild jokes"
if your basis for argument is again based on your belief that there are more toilet graffiti in singapore than in UK, I suggest you show some proof first. before you say i'm ignoring toilet graffiti, show me that you're not ignoring toilet graffiti in UK. -
you don't have to be assaulted to be able to read statistics to tell the number of racially motivated assault cases in the UK.Originally posted by HENG@:exactly the same point applies to singaporean students studying here. How many of those who are crying that british are extremely racist have personally been assaulted to make such claims?