Many Singaporeans migrating....How come???
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claiming that 400 cases in a major costal city is extreme is blowing it up! and my widespread cases speak of an underlying racial sentiment that exists despite the govt's efforts at promoting racial harmony. Its elusive and u cannot put a finger on it, or on the culprit. Socially, its even more dangerous than clearly defined cases of assault.Originally posted by snow leopard:no one's blowing up the 400 cases in a small english town. it's reported by the english themselves! your so called widespread cases are merely toilet door scribblings which there're probably lots more in the uk.
well, would u prefer me to gloat in everyone's face and say "i told u so" or would u prefer people just take it a bit more into regard and nip things in the bud? The problem is, it IS there, there are signs of a problem, u can't just attribute someone's denial to simple basis of different perception. The point is im not benchmarking people's judgement against mine. i gain nothing from that. however, i AM trying to wake people up to the fact that things are not what they seem, and hope to prevent the preventable, and improve things.Originally posted by snow leopard:however, your judgement of what other people thinks is merely a function of your own biasedness. someone thinks like you, you say he thinks alright. someone doesn't think like you, you say there's something he doesn't realise. how do you make yourself to be the authority of judgement that everyone else has to be benchmarked against?
How does denial help, even if I were to allow for difference in perception and judgement? When someone tells me UK is extremely racist, I don't say "there is no racism in uk" I agree that there is racism but its not on the level of "extremity", and that its heartening that that effort is being undertaken to further reduce this, whereas when i point out racism exist in sg, the instinctive reply from people like u are to say "there is no racism in sg" which is definately not true. however, if u were to say "yes there is, although there is a cause for social concern, it is currently within manageable levels" then there wouldn't be a need to carry this discussion further. instead, u choose outright denial any racial sentiments in sg.
my basis on this agument is based not only on the toilet doors, which is just one example within sg, but also based on what i observe based on how races interact. for eg, when amongst themselves, chinese make less than favourable observations and comments about the indians. Their racist nature, and the fact that they're not 'mild jokes' becomes very clear when u consider that no chinese in their right mind would utter them in front of indians, except when they are out to offend. And I have personally seen the racial epithets used by many singaporeans, which are bodering on the offensive.Originally posted by snow leopard:if your basis for argument is again based on your belief that there are more toilet graffiti in singapore than in UK, I suggest you show some proof first. before you say i'm ignoring toilet graffiti, show me that you're not ignoring toilet graffiti in UK.
As for toilets, u might want to claim this is ridiculous, but I have been to lots of toilets in UK and Sg, and honestly, I do encounter much less toilet graffiti in UK. The main sort of graffiti prevalent here are the wall type, such as that by banksy, more a form of free art, and tagging, than of the toilet graffiti type. And thus far, I have not seen street graffiti of a racial nature. No doubt there are some, but I have not seen any yet. As for toilet graffiti in SG, u could argue that I remember more because I've spent a longer time in SG, but it is the fact that I have not personally seen any in the UK thus far, despite having visited a myraid of major and minor towns and cities both North and South. Ok yes u can argue that what I personally encounter does not account for the absolute truth, but my stand remains that although racism might be more common in uk than sg, sg's racism is not non-existant, and should be something we constantly keep in mind, as a problem to be solved. -
If you had read the 2005 Winter Edition of "The Chemical Engineer" (TCE), a quarterly publication of the Institution of Chemical Engineers, UK, it specifically mentioned in the article "Focus on Singapore" that the employment laws and salary structure highly favours employers. This had been acknowledged outside Singapore for a long time already.Originally posted by jusgal:Over the years we have to admit that the law here does not really protect the employees but the employers.
Moreover, the article also mentioned that the employer contribution to our CPF is less than half the optimum rate. It's 45% in the UK, and 55% in USA, while Singapore's a tiny 13% (I think). No wonder retired Singaporeans still have to get menial jobs to survive. According to economists, the optimum CPF rate is 30%, so as to compensate for inflation and fluctuating interest rates over the years.
We had been duped for so long!!!
Singaporeans deserve to migrate!!! -
no i don't. but again, the number of cases here, in context of the entire population, and the crime rate here, would show that yes racism exists here, but no it is NOT EXTREME. For extreme, try 70s American KKK.Originally posted by snow leopard:you don't have to be assaulted to be able to read statistics to tell the number of racially motivated assault cases in the UK. -
Racism cannot be avoided. Since migration is a must, then we must seek countries that have an acceptable degree of racism.
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Originally posted by geodome:
acceptable degree of racism = the mainland chinese can be discriminated against, the eastern european can be discriminated against.....as long as I am not discriminated.
Racism cannot be avoided. Since migration is a must, then we must seek countries that have an [b]acceptable degree of racism.[/b]
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
[b]acceptable degree of racism = the mainland chinese can be discriminated against, the eastern european can be discriminated against.....as long as I am not discriminated. [/b]
i agree. -
the definition for acceptable degree of racism is up to the individual migrant.
i believe sgdiehard's comment does embody some truth -
Originally posted by HENG@:
claiming that 400 cases in a major costal city is extreme is blowing it up! and my widespread cases speak of an underlying racial sentiment that exists despite the govt's efforts at promoting racial harmony. Its elusive and u cannot put a finger on it, or on the culprit. Socially, its even more dangerous than clearly defined cases of assault.
major costal city? if that small town is a 'major' costal city, then you might consider singapore to be a full fledged four star general city ... extreme perhaps but that wasn't what i said, "a lot worse than singapore" was what i said and that is based on absolute numbers. elusivity is based on your perception which again is subjective.
well, would u prefer me to gloat in everyone's face and say "i told u so" or would u prefer people just take it a bit more into regard and nip things in the bud? The problem is, it IS there, there are signs of a problem, u can't just attribute someone's denial to simple basis of different perception. The point is im not benchmarking people's judgement against mine. i gain nothing from that. however, i AM trying to wake people up to the fact that things are not what they seem, and hope to prevent the preventable, and improve things.
i prefer we tackle the really serious problems than worry about something that really isn't so much of an issue. good that you're not benchmarking. so hopefully we won't hear things like "you're wrong" or "you're not getting it" when what you feel the other person is thinking wrong or not getting is merely in relation to what you're thinking or think you're getting rather than facts. i commend you for trying to wake people up, but what if most people are awake and aware and already so troubled with more pressing issues about the daily grind?
How does denial help, even if I were to allow for difference in perception and judgement? When someone tells me UK is extremely racist, I don't say "there is no racism in uk" I agree that there is racism but its not on the level of "extremity", and that its heartening that that effort is being undertaken to further reduce this, whereas when i point out racism exist in sg, the instinctive reply from people like u are to say "there is no racism in sg" which is definately not true. however, if u were to say "yes there is, although there is a cause for social concern, it is currently within manageable levels" then there wouldn't be a need to carry this discussion further. instead, u choose outright denial any racial sentiments in sg.
while you did not say "there is no racism in uk", you did say "racism isn't as serious as you think" and that was the basis for my argument. please do not paint a different picture of what i was arguing for. all along, what i've been maintaining is simply that racism is a lot more serious in the uk than in singapore. i did not say "there is no racism in sg", in fact i said "it may not be 0 but it certainly wouldn't be 400 either. chances are it's 1 or 2." i don't think it is a cause for social concern because i know and did point out that it is mild and therefore manageable.
my basis on this agument is based not only on the toilet doors, which is just one example within sg, but also based on what i observe based on how races interact. for eg, when amongst themselves, chinese make less than favourable observations and comments about the indians. Their racist nature, and the fact that they're not 'mild jokes' becomes very clear when u consider that no chinese in their right mind would utter them in front of indians, except when they are out to offend. And I have personally seen the racial epithets used by many singaporeans, which are bodering on the offensive.
again, these are all your observations, your opinions about a reality that is so different from what other people might have experienced.
although racism might be more common in uk than sg, sg's racism is not non-existant, and should be something we constantly keep in mind, as a problem to be solved.
sounds more reasonable ... though i still think it's so much more mild and insignificant here compared to the uk that we should focus our energies on more pertinent issues. -
that it actually exists was never my contention nor issue. my issue has always been that it is so much milder and manageable here compared to so-called first world countries.Originally posted by HENG@:no i don't. but again, the number of cases here, in context of the entire population, and the crime rate here, would show that yes racism exists here, but no it is NOT EXTREME. For extreme, try 70s American KKK. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
like to add to your definition:
[b]acceptable degree of racism = the mainland chinese can be discriminated against, the eastern european can be discriminated against.....as long as I am not discriminated. [/b]
acceptable degree of racism is also = discriminated by your own kind and passed over by your own kind to ang mohs and foreign talents
equating your acceptable degree of racism to my acceptable degree of racism, we have:
mainland chinese discriminated against = discriminated by your own kind = passed over to ang mohs and foreign talents
so who is not discriminated? -
add to that another kind of discrimination: favouring the minority as a result of trying to show racial impartiality.Originally posted by snow leopard:like to add to your definition:
acceptable degree of racism is also = discriminated by your own kind and passed over by your own kind to ang mohs and foreign talents
equating your acceptable degree of racism to my acceptable degree of racism, we have:
mainland chinese discriminated against = discriminated by your own kind = passed over to ang mohs and foreign talents
so who is not discriminated?
This leads me to wonder, if HDB's policy of maintaining a certain % of races in each HDB block considered a form of racism? -
1stly, Lets make this clear. Plymouth is NOT a small town. It smacks of ignorance to say that. It is an important city of UK. Not every large city is a super-city like Sg.Originally posted by snow leopard:sounds more reasonable ... though i still think it's so much more mild and insignificant here compared to the uk that we should focus our energies on more pertinent issues
2ndly, there are fundamental threats to social philosophy we always have to keep an eye on instead of growing complacent towards it.
3rdly, what are the more pertinent issues you refer to? -
by manageable u mean kept out of sight.Originally posted by snow leopard:that it actually exists was never my contention nor issue. my issue has always been that it is so much milder and manageable here compared to so-called first world countries. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
1stly, Lets make this clear. Plymouth is NOT a small town. It smacks of ignorance to say that. It is an important city of UK. Not every large city is a super-city like Sg.
like i said before, our definitions are different, not that i'm ignorant. in today's context, plymouth is but a small town. mega cities are cities with 15, 20 million people like tokyo, new york, LA ...
2ndly, there are fundamental threats to social philosophy we always have to keep an eye on instead of growing complacent towards it.
the number one satisfier of social discontent is food on the table ...
3rdly, what are the more pertinent issues you refer to?
incompetent leadership due to political protectionism leading to poor policies and decisions that affect quality of living. social injustice and over bearing control of our lives and livelihood -
no, manageable means mild and not seriousOriginally posted by HENG@:by manageable u mean kept out of sight. -
yea these are mega cities. Plymouth is certainly a city. Not a mega-tropolis but certainly a city. Towns generally have a much smaller population. A small town would only have a population of about 10,000.Originally posted by snow leopard:like i said before, our definitions are different, not that i'm ignorant. in today's context, plymouth is but a small town. mega cities are cities with 15, 20 million people like tokyo, new york, LA ...
hmm...Originally posted by snow leopard:the number one satisfier of social discontent is food on the table ...
ah i have to agree on this then.Originally posted by snow leopard:incompetent leadership due to political protectionism leading to poor policies and decisions that affect quality of living. social injustice and over bearing control of our lives and livelihood -
Originally posted by HENG@:
yea these are mega cities. Plymouth is certainly a city. Not a mega-tropolis but certainly a city. Towns generally have a much smaller population. A small town would only have a population of about 10,000.
ang mo kio probably has a bigger population than plymouth. does that make ang mo kio a city?
i have stayed in a so-called european city of about a million in population. the feeling i get is that it is a small town, hardly the vibrance and hustle and bustle you find here in singapore. that's why i'm confident to say that plymouth, being much smaller, certainly would feel like a small town to most city boys who grew up in singapore ... -
ang mo kio alone has 1/12th of the population of sg? i don't think so...Originally posted by snow leopard:ang mo kio probably has a bigger population than plymouth. does that make ang mo kio a city?
ok i agree it might seem like a small town to city boys from sg, but its a city, with properly defined boundries. its a city. its defined as a city in wikipedia and other sources. -
Originally posted by HENG@:
ang mo kio alone has 1/12th of the population of sg? i don't think so...
a more accurate figure would probably be 1/16 and tampines comes close. ang mo kio has apparently dwindled in size over the years although its still in the same ball part range.
ok i agree it might seem like a small town to city boys from sg, but its a city, with properly defined boundries. its a city. its defined as a city in wikipedia and other sources.
my basis for argument all along has been the comparison between this uk town and singapore and in this comparison, plymouth is considered a small town. -
gee that smacks very much of nationalistic arrogance. I guess one doesn't need to be a former colonial nation to have that kind of attitude.Originally posted by snow leopard:my basis for argument all along has been the comparison between this uk town and singapore and in this comparison, plymouth is considered a small town. -
I call it the postcolonial hubris.Often manifested in successful offshoots of the dear old Lizzie's Empire.Originally posted by HENG@:gee that smacks very much of nationalistic arrogance. I guess one doesn't need to be a former colonial nation to have that kind of attitude. -
actually, it can be quite fun here. sometimes i mock the brits about how their lack of tactial acumen got one of their most prized battleships sunk by "little yellow men"Originally posted by LazerLordz:I call it the postcolonial hubris.Often manifested in successful offshoots of the dear old Lizzie's Empire.
speaking of yellow men, the most popular show made for kids is the simpsons so don't be dissin yellow power!
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not at all, just saying it as a matter of fact, not the sort of thing worth boasting about but is an essential consideration factor when you're comparing racism cases ...Originally posted by HENG@:gee that smacks very much of nationalistic arrogance. I guess one doesn't need to be a former colonial nation to have that kind of attitude. -
there are many essential consideration factors but u discount some of them...Originally posted by snow leopard:not at all, just saying it as a matter of fact, not the sort of thing worth boasting about but is an essential consideration factor when you're comparing racism cases ... -
let's face it..some people will always take any form of provokation, intentional or non-intentional, personal or non-personal, racial or non-racial as racist remarks. ignore the xenophobes, get on with life.