Singapore At War
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Tanks at that weight could not allow heavy armour in any sense. Therefore again defeat the purpose of a replacement for AMX-13 and to counter Malaysia's future purchase of T-80s. T-80 has a combat weight of 42,500kg. It's 125mm main gun outranges any 105mm. As it is to our pathetic 75mm was outranged by 100m compared tp Malaysia's scorpian 90mm. A 120mm main gun with a effective range of 3000m, we could blast any malaysian tanks while they are still in Johor.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:but personally, i believe that it is difficult to use MBTs in Singapore.The reason?MBTs are far too heavy.infact, i don;t really believe there are centurions aka tempest in singapore.It would properbly sink into the soil the moment they get off road.thats why,a light tank which is 18-25 tons will suit our needs.however, following so many reports that s'pore have centurions, maybe they really do exist in Singapore.but if malaysia did purchase their MBTs, maybe you will see the next day's headlines:MINDEF ANNOUNCED THAT MBTS HAVE BEEN UISED BY SAF SINCE 1970.
Centurions are too old and too heavy to match T-80s speed, armour and armament. -
but malaysia doesn't haf any tanks.their 'armoured' corps only comprise of armoured vehicles. i watch a video abt the malaysian army. HECK! i can bet tt our NCC cadets are more disciplined n much more capable of doing tinks....toking abt a tank fight wif them.........(UWAHAHAHAHA) yes their scorpion outrabges our 75mm gun...but 1 SAF tank kill is equal 2 at least 3 or 4 MAF 'ARMOURED VEHICLE' kill....i cant imagine if singapore ever buy n used MBTs....1 SAF MBT kill 2 10 MAF kill.....
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LOLZ! They still don't believe that Armored Vehicles should not engage tanks unless they got missiles. They pay dearly if they ever send their units for operations with a coalition task force.
We still do not know what the composites of the M1's Armor. Its known as the Chobham or Burlington Armor package, designed in Burlington England. The British army uses similar armor for their Challengers. The composite material of the Chobham armor is really very interesting. The armor is made in layers, each layer with its molecular strength faced in a different direction. Thus when a round tries to penetrate, it cannot find a simple strength layer to slip through, and will end up trying stuck. However, the exact composites of the armor is still unknown.
As for the merkava, it's armor is basically steel. But it has a very low slope gradient and together with its Blazer reactive armor package, its very hard to kill on the first hit. Its low slope gradient makes it hard to kill even after its reactive armor is blown away. -
Whatever Malaysia buys, we MUST buy the best weaponary and hardware to counter. If the LMFs manage to kill even one tank of ours (touch wood!) they win by percentage. Therefore we must make sure 1 SAF MBT SLIGHTLY DAMAGED 2 20 MAF MBTS TOTALLY DESTROYED (With MAF's MBTs crew burned to death and blown to pieces by their own rounds in their steel coffins).Originally posted by MinisterOfDefence:but malaysia doesn't haf any tanks.their 'armoured' corps only comprise of armoured vehicles. i watch a video abt the malaysian army. HECK! i can bet tt our NCC cadets are more disciplined n much more capable of doing tinks....toking abt a tank fight wif them.........(UWAHAHAHAHA) yes their scorpion outrabges our 75mm gun...but 1 SAF tank kill is equal 2 at least 3 or 4 MAF 'ARMOURED VEHICLE' kill....i cant imagine if singapore ever buy n used MBTs....1 SAF MBT kill 2 10 MAF kill.....
BUY ONLY THE BEST MAIN BATTLE TANKS!!!
GUARDS's LIGHT STRIKE VEHICAL seems pretty exposed to bullets and fragments. I suggest Bullet proved vest for those operating in the LSV. It could increase the survivability of the crew. -
A sniper could pick off the LSV operators and use our own weapons against us.
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Quite correct... M'sia does not own any medium tanks, only the Scorpions (for recce purpose).Originally posted by MinisterOfDefence:Recently, the malaysian chief of army finally admitted that they haf NO tanks.that means..no amphibious armoured assault capabilities. they dun even haf a single combined arms division...
The fact of the matter is, M'sia is still in the process of building up its conventional force. The MAF has for much of its history been a counterinsurgency force: the Malayan Emergency of the 50's and 60's; the communist threat in the northern peninsular from the 70's to mid-80's, etc. Tanks are of limited use in COIN ops (as seen in Vietnam), hence the acquisition of wheeled APCs (for mobility and fire support).
Although the threat of insurgency has been neutralised, the decision to acquire medium tanks is an indication that the "northern aggressor" mindset still lingers on. This is because large scale armour ops can best be conducted up north which is less mountainous and less urbanised.
Thus, arguments on the outcome of a conflict between Singapore & Malaysia are moot since the MAF is poised for a northern war. Unless of course, Singapore has her own agenda...
In my opinion, given the uncertainty in respect of potential threat, Malaysia would be better off building a wheeled armour force (similar to the proposed US Mobile Brigade). This force and the Rapid Deployment Force would allow the MAF to quickly respond to any emerging threat.
Your thoughts, please... -
except if the problem is in east malaysia. ehehee..Originally posted by FBW:Quite correct... M'sia does not own any medium tanks, only the Scorpions (for recce purpose).
The fact of the matter is, M'sia is still in the process of building up its conventional force. The MAF has for much of its history been a counterinsurgency force: the Malayan Emergency of the 50's and 60's; the communist threat in the northern peninsular from the 70's to mid-80's, etc. Tanks are of limited use in COIN ops (as seen in Vietnam), hence the acquisition of wheeled APCs (for mobility and fire support).
Although the threat of insurgency has been neutralised, the decision to acquire medium tanks is an indication that the "northern aggressor" mindset still lingers on. This is because large scale armour ops can best be conducted up north which is less mountainous and less urbanised.
Thus, arguments on the outcome of a conflict between Singapore & Malaysia are moot since the MAF is poised for a northern war. Unless of course, Singapore has her own agenda...
In my opinion, given the uncertainty in respect of potential threat, Malaysia would be better off building a wheeled armour force (similar to the proposed US Mobile Brigade). This force and the Rapid Deployment Force would allow the MAF to quickly respond to any emerging threat.
Your thoughts, please...
Able to respond to a threat... does not automaticaly implied able to handle the threat..
Able to respond quickly does not mean they cannot be decieved onto a wild goose chase.
Able to respond does not imply able to hold the line.
For every strategy.. there is a counter-strategy... for every advantages gained from the enemy... an advantage is lost to the enemy. -
Right! So beside bullet proved vest, any other ways to enhance survivabilities of these operators?Originally posted by Shotgun:A sniper could pick off the LSV operators and use our own weapons against us. -
no machines are invicible in this world.the only way 2 protect the crew of an LSV is 2 keep moving.singapore engineers knew tt singapore cannot afford 2 haf MBT n tt's y they used light tanks on a huge basis. the most important on the list of credibilty of the tank is speed n agility. Instead of fighting wif firepower, the tanks are more suited 4 hit n run tactics.fire-n4get....bo chee style but very useful..in short,we can't possibly cover the LSV with sum kind of armour as it defeats the purpose of a rapid deployment force. its the speed of the LSV tt is crucial.we cant possibly haf snipers hitting a soldier in a vechicle travelling at 60km/h....
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The LSV carries SPIKE... this missile have a range of 4 KM or 6 km(bigger version NTD) so... the LSV... dont really chiong in the front... it actually fire from behind the line...Originally posted by hardware:Right! So beside bullet proved vest, any other ways to enhance survivabilities of these operators?
Since the SPIKE is actually a FOGM... the firer can see wat the missile see and change the missile course midway if required. no need to risk it out in the open against enemy snipers. it doesnt even need direct line of fire.... in fact... the commander can fire first and then look for a target... if got juicy target.. take it... IF not... take whatever is available...even a truck also can.
The purpose of putting the SPIKE on the LSV is obvious... the LSV can go to where the tanks cannot go.. it can reach the designated location faster and with the punch to send enemy armour forces packing for the graveyard... sort of like a flying anti-armour lightning strike force.
to strike where the enemy least expect, swiftly, deadly, accurately and without mercy.
when not required... they LSV can be dispersed along the line and help to reinforce the defence line.... but when required... they can be quickly amassed in large number to counter sudden enemy armor strike... anywhere along the line, just in case the apache or CAS is not available in time.
In BUA the LSV could even be used to conduct raid and run strike on enemy forces by making good use of their speed, wheels, small size and firepower.
when needed... it can even be rapid deploy by helo or para drop from C-130. -
SOunds only logical. If they LSV was using some wire guided or laser guided missile, it would be a sitting Duck.
I feel that a wheeled armored force has it's credits. Its highly mobile and can move to reinforce fast. However, it functions like a calvary unit, either used in a light rapid assault or a quick defense. It cannot hold or sustain itself in a brawl. That is where MBT's come in. Main battle tanks are able to sustain heavy hits and walk away with it. A wheeled armored force cannot do so simply because it cannot pack the amount of armor on wheels! Unless a there is a break thru in armor technology, that is light enuff and strong enuff. -
yah,there is definitely a need for wheel armoured vehicles,the v-150 and v200 are already so outdated already ,i am surprise that the army is still using them for air defence....well its a gd idea i suppose as the weapon is mounted on top of the vehicle,donnit to move around that much...
the new vehicle st is developing looks just like a mock up,eg no engine or weapon system on it,wonder how good it is??any fellows ouut there know anything else abt it?? -
singapore once considered the BRADLEY 4 its armoured force but dunno y they reject it.....but singapore should now really concentrate on 3 tinks 2 buy....Multiple launch rocket system,MBTs n new fighters 2 reapce the old 1s
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MLRS is dangerous. Really. If we get them, malaysia would try to get something with equal range. That would be VERY dangerous. The thing about it is that, you can't intercept rockets in flight. Not conventional rockets used by MLRS, even if both sides have it, there will be significant damage to both Civillians and infrastructures.
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Understand about your concern regarding S'pore getting MLRS. Unfortunately, Malaysia have already ordered such weapon from Brazil since late last year.... That is what i read from the local newspaper.Originally posted by Shotgun:MLRS is dangerous. Really. If we get them, malaysia would try to get something with equal range. That would be VERY dangerous. The thing about it is that, you can't intercept rockets in flight. Not conventional rockets used by MLRS, even if both sides have it, there will be significant damage to both Civillians and infrastructures.
So i personally feel that S'pore will be at great disadvantage if there's MLRS targetting at us...& if we don't have anything similar to point back to them.
In fact the SAF have already done some studies regarding the purchasing of MLRS back in the early 1990s. But the plan was dropped because it was unlikely that the government will approved the purchasing of such weapon then. That's what i read from the book "Defending the lion city".
Below is an article from the Malaysia's newspaper "The New Straits Times", dated 27th November 2000:
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Title of article : "Artillery guns, rocket system for our army"
KUALA LUMPUR, Sun. - The army has bought military hardware worth RM977.36 million (US$257.2 million) from South Africa and Brazil, including 22 155mm G5 medium-range artillery guns from the former.
The contract for the medium-range guns costing RM185.44 million was signed on Wednesday while the deal for the purchase of 18 Brazilian-made Astros II multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) was signed on Friday.
The signing of both contracts came after months of evaluation by the armed forces from a host of other offers.
The army's modernisation programme took a back seat in the 1990s when the Royal Malaysian Air Force and Royal Malaysian Navy took a large chunk of the budget.
In announcing this recently, Deputy Defence Minister Datuk Shafie Apdal said the entire package of the MLRS would be delivered within the next 20 months, while the G5 artillery guns would be delivered in stages, with the first batch expected within the next 12 months.
He said the purchase was part of the ongoing process to modernise the armed forces.
"As our military procurement exercise was shelved during the economic downturn in the 1990s, we feel that the time now is right to commence with this exercise."
He said this after holding a discussion with New Zealand air force chief Air Vice-Marshall D.M. Hamilton at his office in Wisma Pertahanan.
Hamilton, on his first visit to the ministry, also called on air force chief Jen Tan Sri Ahmad Saruji Che Rose.
Capable of achieving a maximum range of 90km, the four-tube truck- mounted Astros II MLRS is currently in operation in Brazil, Croatia, Iraq, Libya, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.
The system, to be used by the air artillery unit, has three types of warheads - high explosive incendiary, anti-personnel and anti- material mine deployment, and airfield denial munitions capable of penetrating up to 400mm of reinforced concrete.
With the purchase, Malaysia becomes only the second Southeast Asian country to operate an MLRS system, the other being Thailand, which operates the system produced by Norinco of China.
The G5 155mm medium-range artillery guns are capable of hitting a target up to 39km away.
Emphasising that the procurement was not aimed at creating an arms race or to intimidate other countries, Shafie said it was to modernise the army.
"Other countries should not be unduly worried as this exercise is part of an ongoing process to establish a credible force with sufficient deterrent power, not for aggression.
"We feel that the time has come for us to modernise our force, and this is what we are doing."
On his meeting with Hamilton, Shafie said both parties touched on various matters pertaining to bilateral military issues, including joint training and exercises.
"I am happy to say that our relations with New Zealand have been good, by virtue of us being a member of the Five-Power Defence Arrangement pact."
Besides New Zealand and Malaysia, the other FPDA member countries are Singapore, Australia and the United Kingdom.
Caption: Field artillery ... The army is expected to take delivery of its first South African made G5 155mm guns within the next 12 months.; More fire power ... Malaysia will be the second country in Southeast Asia, after Thailand, to operate an MLRS system with the purchase of the Brazilian made Astros II MLRS.; Renewing friendship ... Hamilton exchanges mementos with Shafie at Wisma Pertahanan. -
lets me put it this way...lets not be too surprise if we already have some mlrs system in place already,maybe our guys are already training on it,someplace,somewhere....
come on guys,this is the spore army we are talking abt,just by reading all our posts you would have realised that thats the way our army purchase their weapon...test secretly,purchase them,train the users,then after 3 -4 years ,announce in the straits time,that,ya,spore just bought some new weapons system...eg the Igla is a gd example
and even if have not purchase them yet,dont worry,they will eventually noy that malaysia has bought them.and the gd news,u can bet our mlrs would be much better thantheir brasilian system -
u all seem 2 b saying singapore was about 2 hav a war soon.
[This message has been edited by F-14 Tomcat (edited 02 August 2001).] -
By the way, toking about tanks. Hav any1 heard about tank plinking method. If yes, izzit possible 4 singapore 2 carry out this stragedy? Oso, there is 2 much problems which we hav not thinked b4 if singapore goes 2 war. 2 our soldiers hav the ability 2 remain calm in battle or panic like hell. there r oso many other problem we hav not look into b4. but the main thing is, 2 singapore soldiers can perform as well in wartime as peacetime. This certainly leave a doubt as the SAF has not b tested in combat b4
[This message has been edited by F-14 Tomcat (edited 02 August 2001).] -
the same applies to all the armies around the world... including our neighbours... its easy to march in smart uniform on special occasions... but when the real thing comes.. who knows?? if singapore soldiers might panic.. likewise... malaysian soldier might also panic...(fuck the claim that malaysian soldier was tested in war bullshit, the MCP is nothing compare to the firepower of SAF and fighting when u are in the advantage is definitely not the same when u fight with almost certainty of death)Originally posted by F-14 Tomcat:By the way, toking about tanks. Hav any1 heard about tank plinking method. If yes, izzit possible 4 singapore 2 carry out this stragedy? Oso, there is 2 much problems which we hav not thinked b4 if singapore goes 2 war. 2 our soldiers hav the ability 2 remain calm in battle or panic like hell. there r oso many other problem we hav not look into b4. but the main thing is, 2 singapore soldiers can perform as well in wartime as peacetime. This certainly leave a doubt as the SAF has not b tested in combat b4
[This message has been edited by F-14 Tomcat (edited 02 August 2001).] -
we do have the ICM shells for the arty's FH2000 which is a terror to behold.. far worst than the MRLS...that malaysia can hope to challenge in terms of destruction and cost (cheap cheap)... too bad malaysia wont get those ICMs cos... nobody is selling them... its either u make urself OR.... u can keep eyeballing it from a distance.Originally posted by m113apc:lets me put it this way...lets not be too surprise if we already have some mlrs system in place already,maybe our guys are already training on it,someplace,somewhere....
come on guys,this is the spore army we are talking abt,just by reading all our posts you would have realised that thats the way our army purchase their weapon...test secretly,purchase them,train the users,then after 3 -4 years ,announce in the straits time,that,ya,spore just bought some new weapons system...eg the Igla is a gd example
and even if have not purchase them yet,dont worry,they will eventually noy that malaysia has bought them.and the gd news,u can bet our mlrs would be much better thantheir brasilian system
As for the 90km astro II MRLS.... its a problem of course... that's where the apache comes in... and if a few dozen rocket is gonna make singapore shake... think of the earthquake the RSAF would deliver to KL with FAEs... in the end... we lost a few flats... they loose a few cities and KL gets the honor of being burns to ashes by RSAF.
Runway denial bomblets?? firing from 90KM away.... they have to pray damn hard that it can hit the runway by luck... afterall rockets have no guidance...
Anyway... its a good excuse for us to start putting some money into ABM systems like patriot or the S300. even the land base Barak AMM could be useful in knocking those rockets out of the sky.
But... we will probably overdo it again... malaysia always talk very very very big one.. like the MIG-29 lies... all a bunch of bullshit... they got a few MIG-29A and calls it 29M, then later call it 29N and all the high tales of the AMRAAMSKI when in truth... their Mig-29 cant carry it until much much later after 3 phase of refurbishing. while during this time we got ourselves as many as 70 falcons of the latest model with AMRAAM to boot.
Now that malaysia claim they are getting the 90km range 4 tube version instead of the 24km range 12 tube version....... a year later wait u see SAF with thoudsands of FIREFLYs aimed at every malaysian towns and cities. denial us the runway and at most our pilot shake leg lor.... but when those missiles flies towards malaysia... god help them.
bottom line... we got the money , we got the technology.. they wanna play with us.... go home and look at their face in their own piss.
At the most... for every MRLS malaysia buys... we can buy ten times as many from the same manufacturer if there is no other better system available. GOT MONEY CAN CRUSH DEAD A MAN. -
But it is a fact that S'pore have several hidden agendas which are not known to pudlic.
The only official record that it exist comes from the governmaets anouncement that s'pore have black funds for projects which are used as silver bullets when war comes.So,i won't be surprised if there are highly advanced weapons comming out when war comes. -
Actually, i hope that singapore would purchase F-15E coz singapore lack an aircraft which could give a massive offensive capilities. N the F-15E is the best. Besides tat, with F-15E, dunsae T-90, an M1 could b taken out easily
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LOL! An M1 with the chobham armor package cannot be taken out easily. Trust me. Truth is, Singapore has a lot of secrets. Hell, if people open their eyes a bit, they'll see the secrets. They tested the F-15E and the Tornado Gr.Mk3 in Australia already. Which was why Jane's F-15E featured RSAF Tornados. Believe me, sources from Jane's is VERY believeable. In 1997, SSI featured people's General. In the array of Singapore units, was the Centurion Mk4. Most people thought that was bullshit and Singapore Didn't operate MBTs, well well... look now?
Technically, Singapore would most probably acquire its own MLRS. I would definitely hope its would be the American system. Fully computerised, with guidance from GPS Satellites. Also, Singapore more or less anticipated the MLRS purchase by Malaysia, which lead to the urgent purchase of more Apache Ds. Attack Helicopters functions as artillery killers, while being able to penetrate airspace without detection.
However, what I fear is not an all out attack against Singapore. Rather a light infantry insertion. One can imagine what a team of highly trained commmandos can do to the infrastructure of Singapore. If anyone has read about the kopassus, they will realise that no matter how poor or weak a country is, NEVER doubt their special forces. Kopassus is Indonesia's special force. They do not wear a crew cut, but rather long hair and beard. Now, how many of those have you seen wondering around Singapore already? -
Off topic post. But I hope reading this article will humble ourselves a little.Originally posted by tripwire:bottom line... we got the money , we got the technology.. they wanna play with us.... go home and look at their face in their own piss.
http://www.feer.com/2001/0108_09/p012region.html -
Yap. i agree that Singapore's way of doing things is to test and purchase secretly, train and then announce very much later or don't announce at all. Anyway, an F15E is not needed for Singapore. Take a look at our neighbours( no need to say lor), take a look at China, their T85II and T90II is good on the ground but is totally helpless in the eyes of our F16D pilots targetting them. I think that it is impossible for Singapore to purchase F15E after its large procurement of F16C/D and it is possible that the F16C/Ds would remain well in service for another 8-10 years. If a replacement for the F16C/D is being looked into, JSF is a better option don't you guys agree? Together with our EF2000, the RSAF would be formiddable.
By the way, does Malaysian G5 SPH has an equal range as the FH2000 or further than it? Does the Barak AMM comes in a land-based version? If there are really Tempests, where are they. tell me if you can, Thanx.