Singapore At War
-
Hello everybody. I'm new to this board, and I'm happy (HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT)to find a place where discussions on Singapore's military capabilities can be held. i discussed this topic with my classmates, and their knowledge of Singapore's military capabilities is about nil, yet they ALWAYS insist that Singapore will lose to Malaysia, citing stupid reasons like "they have sooo many people" etc I got so pissed, and trust me, I was sorely tempted to stick the fork in my hand up their nostrils (Singapore almost had its first incident of high-school killing) ..... all the NE talks were always dismissed as Govt propaganda)..... sigh....
Anyway, in response to an earlier question about whether the Typhoon had a supercruise capability, the answer is yes, at a clean config, it supercruised at M1.2. with 4 semi-recessed AAMs, MAYBE it still supercruise, barely.
As for what Singapore should get, I vote the Typhoon. Why? I believe it will be the 2nd most capable fighter in the world, an all-rounded fighter with slightly more emphasis on A2A combat. the only grub I have with the Eurofighter is its ECR-90 captor radar, which is still mechanically scanned.... however, if Singapore gets the Tranche 3 aircraft, which should be equipped with the AMSAR radar, that will be damn zhai...It will stay the 2nd best, until the JSF comes online. I believe Singapore should get the Eurofighter to replace the A4SUs, and JSF to replace the Falcons, in future.
But then, the other choices are also very interesting... consider the Block 60, with its advanced avionics(definitely on par with the Typhoon, and with its Agile Beam Radar definitely better than the Eurofighter's Captor), getting the Block 60s will reduce our logistical burden.
As for the F-15K, they are REALLY desperate to sell it - U know what i mean if you have been following the South Korean FX fighter program closely... and it is also a closer replacement for the A4SUs, which are strike aircraft. There's no better strike aircraft in the world than the Strike Eagle, which I believe they will offer with the upgraded APG-63V3 AESA version.
As for the F-18E/F Hornet, don't even bother considering it. Why accept a aircraft that is considered an interim model by the USN until the JSF comes online. Its performance is pathetic,( in other international boards, people are dead set against it due to it replacing the great Tomcat and the legendary Intruder when it has the capabilities of neither) and its price is almost 60% more than the F-18C model! Anyway, Malaysia is buying it so its a no-go by default.
As for the Rafale... it looks damn nice, but it is in the Middle-Light weight class, and I heard it has certain defeciencies in its RBE2 passive array, as well as it being under-powered at in hot climates or something like that....... -
Should it be Malaysia or Mahathir that dislike US. Japan and South Korea needs US to keep their ass intact.
Once PLA invade Taiwan, at least North Korea will grab hold of this chance to escalate the war and terrorize South Korea. Japan will be pull into the war eventually. Japanese will not be enjoying their Para Para dance for long.
Who knows what Malaysia or Indonesia will do when Americans are busy up north? -
busy sodomising each others ass of course... try to be funny with us.... heheeh... we will make them beg for mercy...Originally posted by hardware:Should it be Malaysia or Mahathir that dislike US. Japan and South Korea needs US to keep their ass intact.
Once PLA invade Taiwan, at least North Korea will grab hold of this chance to escalate the war and terrorize South Korea. Japan will be pull into the war eventually. Japanese will not be enjoying their Para Para dance for long.
Who knows what Malaysia or Indonesia will do when Americans are busy up north?
* can somebody drag those FAEs out now so that we can roast some assholes up north?!! * -
pity your friends.... morons deserve our condolences...Originally posted by YourFather:Hello everybody. I'm new to this board, and I'm happy (HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT)to find a place where discussions on Singapore's military capabilities can be held. i discussed this topic with my classmates, and their knowledge of Singapore's military capabilities is about nil, yet they ALWAYS insist that Singapore will lose to Malaysia, citing stupid reasons like "they have sooo many people" etc I got so pissed, and trust me, I was sorely tempted to stick the fork in my hand up their nostrils (Singapore almost had its first incident of high-school killing) ..... all the NE talks were always dismissed as Govt propaganda)..... sigh....
Anyway, in response to an earlier question about whether the Typhoon had a supercruise capability, the answer is yes, at a clean config, it supercruised at M1.2. with 4 semi-recessed AAMs, MAYBE it still supercruise, barely.
As for what Singapore should get, I vote the Typhoon. Why? I believe it will be the 2nd most capable fighter in the world, an all-rounded fighter with slightly more emphasis on A2A combat. the only grub I have with the Eurofighter is its ECR-90 captor radar, which is still mechanically scanned.... however, if Singapore gets the Tranche 3 aircraft, which should be equipped with the AMSAR radar, that will be damn zhai...It will stay the 2nd best, until the JSF comes online. I believe Singapore should get the Eurofighter to replace the A4SUs, and JSF to replace the Falcons, in future.
But then, the other choices are also very interesting... consider the Block 60, with its advanced avionics(definitely on par with the Typhoon, and with its Agile Beam Radar definitely better than the Eurofighter's Captor), getting the Block 60s will reduce our logistical burden.
As for the F-15K, they are REALLY desperate to sell it - U know what i mean if you have been following the South Korean FX fighter program closely... and it is also a closer replacement for the A4SUs, which are strike aircraft. There's no better strike aircraft in the world than the Strike Eagle, which I believe they will offer with the upgraded APG-63V3 AESA version.
As for the F-18E/F Hornet, don't even bother considering it. Why accept a aircraft that is considered an interim model by the USN until the JSF comes online. Its performance is pathetic,( in other international boards, people are dead set against it due to it replacing the great Tomcat and the legendary Intruder when it has the capabilities of neither) and its price is almost 60% more than the F-18C model! Anyway, Malaysia is buying it so its a no-go by default.
As for the Rafale... it looks damn nice, but it is in the Middle-Light weight class, and I heard it has certain defeciencies in its RBE2 passive array, as well as it being under-powered at in hot climates or something like that.......
tell your friend... technology has advanced so fast and so high.... it takes just a few microbiologist with a laboratory the size of a volleyball court to wipe out the entire population of malaysia and indonesia if you like. in about 3 to 6 months without firing a single shot.
There are weapons that a group of bio-weaponeer microbiologist can conjure up in a lab that will make nuclear bombs a child's toy. they can make the sky freeze over, turn the sea to blood and sent plagues that will destroy a country's economy, military and civilians with a mere flick of a finger.
huge population??? hahahahhaaa...... wat so great about a huge population when they are all sick , having diarrhoea, coughing blood and bed ridden?? hahahaaaa........
the war of the future..... no more soldier, no more tanks, no more combat aircraft, no more carriers, no more guns and bullets... no more missiles and no need god damn useless engineers.....
the out come of the war will be decided by whichever side having the best and most capable microbiologist, biochemist and geneticist.
FUCK the GENERAL. they are no longer needed. -
Scary, but it's a good idea.Originally posted by tripwire:pity your friends.... morons deserve our condolences...
tell your friend... technology has advanced so fast and so high.... it takes just a few microbiologist with a laboratory the size of a volleyball court to wipe out the entire population of malaysia and indonesia if you like. in about 3 to 6 months without firing a single shot.
There are weapons that a group of bio-weaponeer microbiologist can conjure up in a lab that will make nuclear bombs a child's toy. they can make the sky freeze over, turn the sea to blood and sent plagues that will destroy a country's economy, military and civilians with a mere flick of a finger.
huge population??? hahahahhaaa...... wat so great about a huge population when they are all sick , having diarrhoea, coughing blood and bed ridden?? hahahaaaa........
the war of the future..... no more soldier, no more tanks, no more combat aircraft, no more carriers, no more guns and bullets... no more missiles and no need god damn useless engineers.....
the out come of the war will be decided by whichever side having the best and most capable microbiologist, biochemist and geneticist.
FUCK the GENERAL. they are no longer needed.
Malaysia had long been a terrorist or terrorist supporter. No doubt, they have chemical weapons, that's why I had to run beng kang hill breathing through a gas mask. I hope their chemical canisters would rust and break in front of their f..king face.
What do you think of the following, trip.
'Singapore is steaily modernising its armed forces with the help of the United States to secure expanding economic interests in the asia pacific region. As part of Washington's effort to contain through new military allies, Singapore will transition from a small, inert power to one of the principal military players in the asia pacific.'
Global Intellegence update. -
Even they, with their lack of brains, won't dare to do dabble with biological warfare, and neither should we.... mass civilian casualties in a war is not acceptable now, unlike in WW2....the "CNN effect" will take place, and world condemnation would be too much a price to pay ( just look at the Tiananmen Incident in China, China is still suffering the repurcussions of that incident which occured 10 years ago)
-
Mahathir the terrible had been fighting the 'CNN effect' since he sodomised Anwar. Terrorist had no concern over killing cilivians. Biological weapons could wipe us out within 7 days, on the other hand Malaysia still have huge population in Sabah. Chemical or biological weapons could be launched with the Brazilian's MLRS. We counter them with MLRS too. SAF must start evaluating and procuring. M270 MLRS self-propelled loader/launcher(SPLL); Lance-Roquettes Multiple(LRM); Raketenwerfer MARS; Raketenwerfer 110 SF 2. are good choice.Originally posted by YourFather:Even they, with their lack of brains, won't dare to do dabble with biological warfare, and neither should we.... mass civilian casualties in a war is not acceptable now, unlike in WW2....the "CNN effect" will take place, and world condemnation would be too much a price to pay ( just look at the Tiananmen Incident in China, China is still suffering the repurcussions of that incident which occured 10 years ago) -
the CNN effect will not happened.Originally posted by YourFather:Even they, with their lack of brains, won't dare to do dabble with biological warfare, and neither should we.... mass civilian casualties in a war is not acceptable now, unlike in WW2....the "CNN effect" will take place, and world condemnation would be too much a price to pay ( just look at the Tiananmen Incident in China, China is still suffering the repurcussions of that incident which occured 10 years ago)
why?? because bacteria and viruses dont carry flags and there is no way to pinpoint the source of a plague...
the reason is simple... such diseases already exist since time immemorial.... so much so that falling sick is part and parcel of life... occassional outbreaks have been also noted to occur naturally like... nipah in malaysia and FMD in singapore.... who can say if nipah might not be a SAF experiment and FMD a malaysian attempt to play tit for tat???
In fact.... the very seriousness of biological warfare cannot be overstated... wars could be waged without a declaration of war... bacterias and viruses could be disseminated into an enemy state with evil intent and there is little that can be done to limit the damage cause by an outbreak...
to deny the existance of biological warfare is to fight the enemy blindfolded... we cannot and should not deny ourselfs the right to such weapons or its defensive measures just becos we hope that the enemy will likewise not develope such a capability as long as we dont do it first... such naive thoughts is as good as saying... if singapore disband SAF.... maybe malaysia will also disband MAF.
the faces of war have changed.... its no longer about electronics, high tech machines and certainly not nukes.... now with diseases and plagues... a nation could be brought to its knees without a single shot, without a single troop.
singapore's huge forex reserves could be used up with just a few outbreaks.
furthermore.... bio-terrorism is a real possibility... for a high dense population center like singapore... the effect would be catastrophic... sadly.... our generals still think about machines and electronics... our SAF scholars get sent overseas to study stupid subjects like engineering and management.
while SAF continue to get more and more funds to buy stupid toys... the MOH is slap with measures to cut cost.... at whose risk??
i feel that either SAF gets its socks up on biology or MOH should be given the task of defending singaporeans' health against such biological weapons, i think MOH should become part of national defense with the same high level profile, commitment and support from the govt just like MINDEF. -
Hallelujah!! Someone has been enlightened!!
Lolz, sorry, I'm not a fundementalist. Anyway, the fact is, Singapore CANNOT withstand bio-terrorism, nor chemical warfare. How many of our citizens actually knows what the hell biological warfare is, and what the hell is chemical warfare. At our current sorry state, we will probably lose 2/3 of our population, (including NSF and reservists) without knowing why.
Honestly, I can only estimate less than half of us on this forum can guess how difficult, time consuming it is to prepare for an imminent chemical attack. Treating infections is easy enuff, stab the combo pen right in the heart, and done. But how many citizens in Singapore knows what the symptoms of chemical infections are? How many will know what to do?
I like what Trip said about "germs and bacteria don't carry flags." Couldn't help laughing sinisterly. Singapore, hot, humid. Enough strays to become potential carriers of such forms of warfare. Almost perfect for a full scale epidemic. And how many people do you think will know why they died? How many do you think will even know they have been attacked by the most under-handedly method (but effective) known to mankind? Most would think the wrath of God was upon them.
In fact, I almost suspected a recent outbreak not too long ago to be a small scale biological attack directed @ singapore. How many remembers the time when everybody was down and out due to flu, diahoarrea and vomiting?
After all this, how many people would Singapore have lost already? People who are termed by the government as "the nation's most precious resource." Yet why does the Singaporean Government do nothing to educate the us on such dangers? Because they know that is our weakness? So that we will not lose confidence in our security? Is ignorance bliss?
Anyone can say that we are vulnerable to nukes. "Anyone" does not know how expensive it is to maintain nukes. "Anyone" does not know the difference to an overt act of war from a covert attack. "Anyone" should go read up more. Highly reccomended would be "Tom Clancy's Executive Orders" with regards to biological warfare. What makes me shudder is the thought of how cheaply such weapons can be produced. -
To those who missed the articles in the Straits Times, here it is.
Eurofighter's missile offer to S'pore
Advanced missiles will come with the deal as the Republic looks for a new generation of fighter aircraft
By Felix Soh
FOREIGN EDITOR
THE European multi-role fighter aircraft being marketed aggressively to Singapore would come with sophisticated missiles - but without the restrictions imposed by the US on a similar weapon system it supplies to Asian customers of its combat planes.
There would also be other sweeteners to the European deal: A possible transfer of advanced combat aircraft technology, including electronics know-how.
Aggressive marketing for the Eurofighter Typhoon has begun in a bid to clinch a Singapore deal. -- BRITISH AEROSPACE
Singapore has made it known that, besides other military hardware, it was also looking for a new generation of fighter aircraft.
The Eurofighter Typhoon, developed by a consortium of companies from Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain, is one of the contenders for the potential multi-million-dollar Singapore order.
The aircraft, set to enter service with these nations with 620 planes on order, is a cost-effective, multi-role fighter designed for high serviceability and easy maintenance.
Besides air-to-air operations, the agile Typhoon can carry out air interdiction operations, close air support, suppression of enemy air defences, maritime attack and armed reconnaissance.
Cost-effective, easy upkeep
THE Eurofighter Typhoon, developed by a consortium of firms from Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain, is cost-effective and designed for high serviceability and easy maintenance.
Besides air-to-air operations, it can carry out air interdiction, close air support, suppression of enemy air defences, maritime attack and armed reconnaissance.
It comes with the Meteor BVRAAM (beyond visual range air-to- air missile) that can destroy targets at long ranges and engage several targets simultaneously.
Sweeteners offered
OFFERED with the Typhoon would be a possible transfer of advanced combat aircraft technology, including electronics know-how.
A major sweetener would be the provision of "beyond visual range'' advanced missiles -- without cumbersome restrictions that impact negatively on operational readiness.
Similar missiles purchased from the US by Thailand and Singapore come with the condition that the US keeps the weapons until it deems that the countries face a security threat.
The other rivals are the French-made Rafale and advanced versions of the American F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-15 Eagle.
It is expected to be a keenly-contested competition.
British Aerospace Systems, which is spearheading the marketing of the Typhoon to Singapore, has already begun the hard-sell.
Its chief executive, Mr John Weston, was in Singapore last week to meet the country's defence officials.
He declined to disclose who he and his team met or what they discussed, but he confirmed that Singapore was in his gunsight.
'Our current priority in marketing the Typhoon is Singapore,' he said.
He was asked whether Singapore was more favourably disposed - politically and militarily - towards American-made fighter aircraft, which dominate its air force.
Mr Weston said: 'If we'd thought it would be impossible to sell the Typhoon here, we would not have invested so much effort in our endeavour.
'Yes, a deal would involve politics, but we believe we've a good chance although we don't underestimate the scale of the challenge.'
And BAE Systems is making sure that it has more to offer than its competitors.
A key sweetener would be the provision of 'beyond visual range' advanced missiles - without cumbersome restrictions that impact negatively on operational readiness.
Offered with the Typhoon would be the Meteor BVRAAM (beyond visual range air-to-air missile) that can destroy targets at long ranges and engage several targets at the same time.
The Meteor is said to be a superior weapon compared to currently available medium-range air-to-air missiles, including the US-made AMRAAM, the AIM-120C.
Thailand and Singapore have purchased the advanced American missiles, but the sale in both instances carries with it restrictions.
That is, the missiles would be kept in the US until Washington decides that the countries face a security threat.
The US rationale is that it does not want to be the country introducing advanced weapon systems in the region.
However, another Asean country, Malaysia, already possesses such advanced missiles - the AA-12 Adder - for its Russian-made MiG-29 Fulcrums.
Said Mr Weston about the offer of the Meteor missile: 'Clearly, it won't make sense to sell the Typhoon without its major weapon systems.' -
noticed that when malaysia had a nipah outbreak... all those who died were malaysians??Originally posted by Shotgun:Hallelujah!! Someone has been enlightened!!
Lolz, sorry, I'm not a fundementalist. Anyway, the fact is, Singapore CANNOT withstand bio-terrorism, nor chemical warfare. How many of our citizens actually knows what the hell biological warfare is, and what the hell is chemical warfare. At our current sorry state, we will probably lose 2/3 of our population, (including NSF and reservists) without knowing why.
Honestly, I can only estimate less than half of us on this forum can guess how difficult, time consuming it is to prepare for an imminent chemical attack. Treating infections is easy enuff, stab the combo pen right in the heart, and done. But how many citizens in Singapore knows what the symptoms of chemical infections are? How many will know what to do?
I like what Trip said about "germs and bacteria don't carry flags." Couldn't help laughing sinisterly. Singapore, hot, humid. Enough strays to become potential carriers of such forms of warfare. Almost perfect for a full scale epidemic. And how many people do you think will know why they died? How many do you think will even know they have been attacked by the most under-handedly method (but effective) known to mankind? Most would think the wrath of God was upon them.
In fact, I almost suspected a recent outbreak not too long ago to be a small scale biological attack directed @ singapore. How many remembers the time when everybody was down and out due to flu, diahoarrea and vomiting?
After all this, how many people would Singapore have lost already? People who are termed by the government as "the nation's most precious resource." Yet why does the Singaporean Government do nothing to educate the us on such dangers? Because they know that is our weakness? So that we will not lose confidence in our security? Is ignorance bliss?
Anyone can say that we are vulnerable to nukes. "Anyone" does not know how expensive it is to maintain nukes. "Anyone" does not know the difference to an overt act of war from a covert attack. "Anyone" should go read up more. Highly reccomended would be "Tom Clancy's Executive Orders" with regards to biological warfare. What makes me shudder is the thought of how cheaply such weapons can be produced.
noticed too that when the MFD outbreak in singapore... only singapore childrens drop dead??
all these clear cut casualty is really miraculous in view of the close proximity of the 2 nations, not to mention the fact that thoudsands of malaysian and singaporeans visits each other across the causeway every day.
if the above were not a small scale biological war... it at least indicates that it might be possible to direct biological attacks like a precision bomb.
for example.... viruses can be developed that targets an enemy farming industry... like a viruse that will kill off all malaysian palm oil plant and rubber trees.... such an attack will devastate malaysian palm oil and rubber industry for years if not decades. while singapore which have neither trees... would be literary unscathed.
in USA... its even worse... i heard that there was an ongoing project of a highly classified biological weapon developement. the project if succesful... would allow USA to selectively eliminate an entire race base on racial genetic differences! so if the arabs wanna play nukes with uncle sam.... pretty soon... there wont be any arabs left.
in fact... the only reason why biological warfare has been ruled out in the general military strategy was due to the fact that bacterias and viruses tends to have a mind of its own and will kill people irreguardless of nationality.... but as knowledge of bacterias and viruses continue to accumulate.... it is my belief that biological warfare could become a common reality just as like guns and bombs.... with the ability to direct and control bacterias and viruses against the population of a specific nation.
years ago... the idea of controlled nuclear power is unbelievable and deemed crazy. 50 years since hiroshima... nuclear power is but a common reality. so what is so different about bacteria and viruses?? wont it be just a matter of time before man begin to master them as man had master nuclear power? -
If that's the case, how are we going to stop such terrorism? Chem./bio. warfare is unthinkable and difficult to survive through. Singapore is definately not ready. Think if i have just seconds to dress my family up in a chemical suit.
-
In response to what I vote for Singapores next fighter. Heres a shortlist of contenders:
F-16C/D: In short, NO. Its a viable option for all AFs to maintain at least 2 frontline combat types, to perclude the likelihood of a mechanical flaw grounding your entire AF at one go. Once the Skyhawks and F-5s go, the F-16 and newer fighter will be the ones left. Therefor, no F-16s
F-15E(or subvariant): Unlikely. The basic airframe design is 30 years old, albeit packed with new avionics and systems. Newer aircrafe technologies exist today, which we would want for our new fighter. Besides, Singapore has been bitten several times in the past by the Yanks when they refuse export clearances fo vital equipment(AMRAAMS, LINK16). I believe the next fighter will come from a non-US source.
Super Hornet: Saw it at an Aussie airshow. Compared its display to the Rafale at AA2000, IMO its rubbish. Even Congress is asking why did they spend so much on the damn thing for a marginal performance over the -18C/D. Even USN ppl say the F-14 upgrades will be better, had the USN brass taken it up. All it has going for it is slick marketing by Boeing. Not a viable alternative, besides it Yank(see above)
Su-30: Its Russian. The Malaysians are interested. 'Nuff said...
Here is where it gets interesting...
Eurofighter: EF2000 is quoted at a flyaway price of just slightly over the Rafale. However with large orders coming in, economies of scale would lower the price of the individual aircraft. Offensive side, it has lower hardpoints for missile carriage, and I suspect it might lose out on range/endurance stakes by the rafales conformal tanks/more hardpoints. Its advantages lie in its export success, and newer AAMs. But that said, its real advantage is in air to air. And we NEED a SWING aircraft which can perform both roles well.
Rafale: This baby is really slick. IMO it performs air to air and mud moving equallty well. Range, stores capability, advanced weapons and cutting edge self-defense capability. The French are reportedly giving us everything but the kitchen sink for buying this. I too have heard some problems exist with RBE2s ground modes but the French has reportedly ironed them out. The newer M88-3s will offer the Rafale increase in power to cure the problems of the -2. The SCALP and APACHE are as good as Storm Shadow any day and seem to have greater potential than JSOW. The only stumbling block is the French AFs relutcnce to buy it(due to no $$), hurting the Rafale bad in the export market as Dassault cannot build up enough numbers for econs of scale like the Typhoon.
In short, the F-16C/Ds are slowly replacing the A-4s in the RSAF, and the newer fighter is to replace the F-5s. My take on the ST Typhoon article is that the French are reluctant to give us something we want, and we're using the Typhoon to scare them. Same thing happened with the Apache deal, the Yanks never wanted to give us Longbow, thats why before the contract was signed there was a rash of articles on our interest in the Eurocopter Tiger. See a pattern here?
My vote: Rafale. I believe it has everything we need. Besides, it looks a heck a lot cooler than the Typhoon. -
Singapore and Malaysia is too close to use the really virulent biological strains, they will just get infected too. ( I'm pretty sure they dont have the type that targets particular races one, and btw, I thought it was the Isrealis who developed that bio weapon?) It is more possible that they try to contaminate our water supply, however I'm pretty sure that those "up there" would have thought about what the other side would do in a hostile situation....... was just joking with my classmates the other day...... what if we loaded our F-16 Falcons with 2000lb Char Shao Bun Bombs (CSBBs) and dropped them in their mosques.... would do great for (psycho)logical warfare, dont u think??? (ok ok, i know that was moronic... study until damn sian, got such side-effect)
-
With regards to someone posting the specs of Typhoon vs Su-30/37, consider this: whos the source? BAe, who has a specific interest in hyping up its product(ie Typhoon) to generate more sales. It makes for nice rading on the Typhhon, but I think its just a advertising gimmick, whats needed is a independent analysis of each fighter, not company sales brochures.
Thats why the BundesLuftwaffe evaluation of the early Fulcrums the LSK got from the Russians were more believeable from any other sources on the MiG-29s performance, because simply, its unbiased reports from pilots who have no economic interest in the MiG, not some report from a BAe sales rep who got his data on the Typhoon from the PR Dept...
Oh to be honest, AMRAAM is today considered obsolete in the face of newer missles like the R-77, Derby, Meteor and MICA. The Americans will keep ours in the US unless "in the event of war"...what a load of bull****. Personally they can take their AMRAAMs and stick it up where the sun don't shine. And oh, they can kiss the RSAF fighter contract goodbye at the same time. -
Biological warfare is often unthinkable, but deadly. Simply because germs and bacteria like to mutate causing current antidotes to become ineffective. However, being uncontrollable doesnt mean others won't use them as a weapon. And i feel sorry for our state of readiness against unconventional warfare.
I honestly still vote for the Typhoon. Its a new fighter with room for much more capabilities. Its also a new airframe when compared to the Rafale. Sure, the rafale ain't exactly very old either, and I agree is sure does look pretty. And I believe that the Rafale is one of the best fighters of its generation. I've also heard that RSAF pilots themselves have taken spins in the Rafale. However, I still feel that the typhoon will be a better aircraft for Singapore in most aspects, especially with BVRAAMs like the Meteors in service.
As for the US, I believe that Singapore will continue to support certain US products and might even acquire some Block 60 F-16C/Ds. Just enough to please the US, and for us to upgrade our current F-16s.
One fact agreed upon is that the AMRAAM is almost obsolete. Not to mention our AIM-7Es. The only advantage it employs active, semi-active and inertial navigation guidance. Its deadly accurate as well as easily modified in terms of software, eg "Home on Jam" modifications to attack sources of jamming. I feel that it is good that Singapore can have the ability to operate AMRAAMs but I do hope the missiles we purchased are AIM-120B/Cs and not the old AIM-120As. The main problem of the AMRAAM is the range, which somewhere under 40Km. Facing competition against the R-77 Adder, the Adder has a 50km range advantage against the AMRAAMs. Yes, my sentiments exactly.. "WAT DA F*CK?!" The Malaysians north has probably outsmarted us this time by purchasing a Missile platform rather than a fighter. If I were them, I'd just loft the MiG-29s, shoot my Adders before the RSAF can shoot their Slammers. Cowardly but thats the way wars are fought. The only probable way the Slammers can stand a chance is to have the F-16s punch into afterburners and try to close into range and launch while the Adders are still in their initial guidance. I wonder what the probability of a single shot kill the adder has... hmmm.
Next comes the question of HMS systems. Does the F-16 Block 60 have HMS systems? The Su-27SK or Su-30MK that Malaysia is purchasing has such a system. In WVR fight, it has 45 to 60 degree off boresight engagement capability. When compared to the US F-16s and F-15s, the sidewinders have only a 30 degree off boresight capability. In a sustained turn, the difference is very obvious. The F-16 pilot would have to get his target within 30 degrees of his nose, where as a MiG29 or Su-27 pilot need only turn his head, lock and fire. Those of you have played SSI's Flanker and Flanker 2, will know how easy it is for a flanker to make swiss cheese out of ur opponent in close combat. However, such an advantage make be detrimental in the hands off clumsy and trigger happy pilots. A pilot may accidentally shoot down his wingman, (examplified by an Iraqi pilot in early 1991.) -
the derby is already in RSAF inventory.... sshhhh...... you didnt hear it from me.Originally posted by rsafpage:With regards to someone posting the specs of Typhoon vs Su-30/37, consider this: whos the source? BAe, who has a specific interest in hyping up its product(ie Typhoon) to generate more sales. It makes for nice rading on the Typhhon, but I think its just a advertising gimmick, whats needed is a independent analysis of each fighter, not company sales brochures.
Thats why the BundesLuftwaffe evaluation of the early Fulcrums the LSK got from the Russians were more believeable from any other sources on the MiG-29s performance, because simply, its unbiased reports from pilots who have no economic interest in the MiG, not some report from a BAe sales rep who got his data on the Typhoon from the PR Dept...
Oh to be honest, AMRAAM is today considered obsolete in the face of newer missles like the R-77, Derby, Meteor and MICA. The Americans will keep ours in the US unless "in the event of war"...what a load of bull****. Personally they can take their AMRAAMs and stick it up where the sun don't shine. And oh, they can kiss the RSAF fighter contract goodbye at the same time. -
1. the malaysian R77 is not THE R77... it is the export version of the R77... known as the R77E... in short... a downgraded version. China is also getting a downgraded R77 version... but this version is still better then the R77E that malaysia will recieve... questions.... will the malaysian R77E be comparable to the real AIM120? after considering all the downgrade plus more downgrade.Originally posted by Shotgun:Biological warfare is often unthinkable, but deadly. Simply because germs and bacteria like to mutate causing current antidotes to become ineffective. However, being uncontrollable doesnt mean others won't use them as a weapon. And i feel sorry for our state of readiness against unconventional warfare.
I honestly still vote for the Typhoon. Its a new fighter with room for much more capabilities. Its also a new airframe when compared to the Rafale. Sure, the rafale ain't exactly very old either, and I agree is sure does look pretty. And I believe that the Rafale is one of the best fighters of its generation. I've also heard that RSAF pilots themselves have taken spins in the Rafale. However, I still feel that the typhoon will be a better aircraft for Singapore in most aspects, especially with BVRAAMs like the Meteors in service.
As for the US, I believe that Singapore will continue to support certain US products and might even acquire some Block 60 F-16C/Ds. Just enough to please the US, and for us to upgrade our current F-16s.
One fact agreed upon is that the AMRAAM is almost obsolete. Not to mention our AIM-7Es. The only advantage it employs active, semi-active and inertial navigation guidance. Its deadly accurate as well as easily modified in terms of software, eg "Home on Jam" modifications to attack sources of jamming. I feel that it is good that Singapore can have the ability to operate AMRAAMs but I do hope the missiles we purchased are AIM-120B/Cs and not the old AIM-120As. The main problem of the AMRAAM is the range, which somewhere under 40Km. Facing competition against the R-77 Adder, the Adder has a 50km range advantage against the AMRAAMs. Yes, my sentiments exactly.. "WAT DA F*CK?!" The Malaysians north has probably outsmarted us this time by purchasing a Missile platform rather than a fighter. If I were them, I'd just loft the MiG-29s, shoot my Adders before the RSAF can shoot their Slammers. Cowardly but thats the way wars are fought. The only probable way the Slammers can stand a chance is to have the F-16s punch into afterburners and try to close into range and launch while the Adders are still in their initial guidance. I wonder what the probability of a single shot kill the adder has... hmmm.
Next comes the question of HMS systems. Does the F-16 Block 60 have HMS systems? The Su-27SK or Su-30MK that Malaysia is purchasing has such a system. In WVR fight, it has 45 to 60 degree off boresight engagement capability. When compared to the US F-16s and F-15s, the sidewinders have only a 30 degree off boresight capability. In a sustained turn, the difference is very obvious. The F-16 pilot would have to get his target within 30 degrees of his nose, where as a MiG29 or Su-27 pilot need only turn his head, lock and fire. Those of you have played SSI's Flanker and Flanker 2, will know how easy it is for a flanker to make swiss cheese out of ur opponent in close combat. However, such an advantage make be detrimental in the hands off clumsy and trigger happy pilots. A pilot may accidentally shoot down his wingman, (examplified by an Iraqi pilot in early 1991.)
2. malaysian MIGs with R77 have the benefit of firing from a longer range then RSAF falcons... BUT... the RSAF hawkeyes can see them far far away and direct the falcons on them.... and while the falcons' AMRAAM suffers a range deficiency... the falcons are wild weasels... how well with malaysian MIG stand up against the EW capability of RSAF? the RMAF migs might have the ability to fire at extremely long range... but if its radar and fire control is jammed.....
3. firing and running back to base is not entirely a foolproof plan... the RSAF could with its superior fire power, numbers and wild weasel capability might just decide to decommission every malaysian airbase within its reach(which is... everyone of them) before the malaysian MIG could take off.. better yet... blow the MIGs when they are still on the ground. -
tell your friend i reccommend 2000lb of fresh pig blood instead.Originally posted by YourFather:Singapore and Malaysia is too close to use the really virulent biological strains, they will just get infected too. ( I'm pretty sure they dont have the type that targets particular races one, and btw, I thought it was the Isrealis who developed that bio weapon?) It is more possible that they try to contaminate our water supply, however I'm pretty sure that those "up there" would have thought about what the other side would do in a hostile situation....... was just joking with my classmates the other day...... what if we loaded our F-16 Falcons with 2000lb Char Shao Bun Bombs (CSBBs) and dropped them in their mosques.... would do great for (psycho)logical warfare, dont u think??? (ok ok, i know that was moronic... study until damn sian, got such side-effect) -
we cant.... our medical facility and standards is too low and too bureacratic... we need the americans to teach us on this one.Originally posted by hardware:If that's the case, how are we going to stop such terrorism? Chem./bio. warfare is unthinkable and difficult to survive through. Singapore is definately not ready. Think if i have just seconds to dress my family up in a chemical suit.
the first line of defence against such an unconventional war is.... not the soldiers, police, politicians and certainly not the civil defence force.
the first and only line of defence are manned by doctors, nurses and medical laboratory specialist. unfortunately.... if the medical laboratory specialist like biochemist, haematologist and especially microbiologist is manned by unqualified or incompetent staff.... then the war is lost. without capable lab specs.... warnings would not be issued to doctors and govt ministries in time.... so much so that by the time the outbreak registered its first casualty.... many of the doctors, nurses and lab techs would be at the brink of death.
ever ask your CO... about going to war without medics or doctors.... because they are all dead. -
Something interesting i fetched off the net.
"The US Department of Defense of the United States of America and the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Moldova reached an agreement to implement the Cooperative Threat Reduction accord signed on June 23, 1997, in Moldova. The Pentagon pounced on the planes after learning Iran had inspected the jets and expressed an interest in adding them to their inventory. Although Iran already flies the less-capable Fulcrum A, it doesn't own any of the more advanced C-models. Of the 21 Fulcrums the United States bought, 14 are the frontline Fulcrum C's, which contain an active radar jammer in its spine, six older A's and one B-model two-seat trainer. This agreement authorized the United States Government to purchase nuclear-capable MiG-29 fighter planes from the Government of Moldova. This is a joint effort by both Governments to ensure that these dual-use military weapons do not fall into the hands of rogue states. From Oct. 20 to Nov. 2, 1997, loadmasters and aerial port experts squeezed two MiGs apiece, sans wings and tails, into the cargo holds of C-17 Globemaster III transports from Charleston Air Force Base, S.C. The Charleston airlifters delivered the MiGs to the National Air Intelligence Center at Wright-Patterson AFB near Dayton, Ohio. If the NAIC can discover how the Fulcrum works, Air Force pilots might gain an edge if they face the Fulcrum in future combat." -
Sweet mother of Mahathir!! You're another one of them owls! LoL!Originally posted by tripwire:1. the malaysian R77 is not THE R77... it is the export version of the R77... known as the R77E... in short... a downgraded version. China is also getting a downgraded R77 version... but this version is still better then the R77E that malaysia will recieve... questions.... will the malaysian R77E be comparable to the real AIM120? after considering all the downgrade plus more downgrade.
2. malaysian MIGs with R77 have the benefit of firing from a longer range then RSAF falcons... BUT... the RSAF hawkeyes can see them far far away and direct the falcons on them.... and while the falcons' AMRAAM suffers a range deficiency... the falcons are wild weasels... how well with malaysian MIG stand up against the EW capability of RSAF? the RMAF migs might have the ability to fire at extremely long range... but if its radar and fire control is jammed.....
3. firing and running back to base is not entirely a foolproof plan... the RSAF could with its superior fire power, numbers and wild weasel capability might just decide to decommission every malaysian airbase within its reach(which is... everyone of them) before the malaysian MIG could take off.. better yet... blow the MIGs when they are still on the ground.
Okay, even if the Malaysians recieve R77Es, what's the difference in operations enviroment? Cracked Solid Fuel? Jammed fins? Damaged seekers and god noes what? Maybe it's just an R77 body but R-27 brains. Hell, nobody knows for sure. If I was a pilot, I wouldn't want to find out only when my threat recievers go off.
And honestly, common sense dictates you don't base your most powerful weapons within destruction range of ur potential enemy. Again, If i was the Operations Exec of the RMAF, i would hide my "precious" MiG-29s and Su-30s nice and far from the easy reach of RSAF. Beyond artillery, heavily protected by Surface to air equipment, and beside some kampong. Loft them when I need them, and land them to re-arm. Oh, of course, thats where the Storm Shadows come in. Along with UAVs for BDA.
I'd give my Honest to God opinion. Whether they are Downgraded export version or not, they are still a threat. Honor the F*cking threat.
*PS, I wonder if our E-2Cs can be configured to provide command inertia guidance for our AMRAAMS* -
We can argue forever about our preferrred choice about our preferred fighter and won't get a conclusion as everyone will be insisting on their choice!
We will indeed get more Yank toys. But I don't figure F-16-60s, but more 52s like the 20 we recenly ordered. The new fighter will be non-American, that is *almost* certain.
The AMRAAMs we are receiving are almost certain to be the C-5 version, a newer improved seeker head/range version, but still short of the R-77 specs(disclaimer: R-77 specs from Russian sale brochure!). What cheeses me off is the clause in the contract is the fact that the missiles will be left in CONUS until the threat of war is imminent. Singapore is so small, we need every second to plan for any coming conflict, and I don't even want to think how the missiles can get to us in case of surprise attack.
Don't get me wrong, I do rate the MiG-29. I do believe that even in the face of newer fighters, this 80s design is one of the best dogfighters on the planet. However look beyond its dogfighting capability and the versions M'sia has is in effect a "souped-up" Model 9-12(Fulcrum A) daytime local interceptor with limited all weather capability and absolutely NO precision strike capability. It has the Topaz-M radar for R-77 capability, but would still be tied to strict GCI directions to guide it to its targets. If the RMAF IADs is jammed/put out of commision the MiG-29s would be like those in Iraq and Kosovo, flying around blindly to be shot down.
No guys, IMO the greatest threat the RMAF posesses currently are the 8 Hornets sitting in Butterworth. Thes Bugs(as the Aussies call 'em) are the only thing they have with any mud-moving capability in the inventory. However like the MiG-29s they are pitifully short on legs, and anything they intend to do towards us requires a move down to Kuantan or tanker support, which they are critically short of.
The Hawks are of no threat except to close range knife fights. I liken them to the MiG-21s operated by the North Vietnamese over N Vietnam in the 1960s, albeit with more advanced systems. But its essentially a close in fighter. When dealing with them, the first rule is: STAY OUT OF SIDEWINDER RANGE. Pick them of with BVR weapons and keep it that way.
I don't have range/endurance figures at the top my head. But does someone know the range/combat radius comparisons of the MiG-29-F/A-18C/D-Hawk 100/200? Theres got to be a reason why the RMAF is using the Hawks to keep watch over the Spratlys instead of the MiGs or Bugs(from Labuan).
Derby? What Derby? What Python IV? Never heard of it
-
Python 4 is the Isreali indigenously developed short range AAM. It has an excellent fuse, its HMS capable and is considered alongside the AA-11 Archer to be the best short range AAMs around.(AIM-9L nowhere near) The Derby is a dual short/medium range AAM just released by Rafael(?), I think... not much is known about it...... Can someone give more detailed specs about the Mig-29s of Malaysia and the specs of their Adders....( as in how they differ from the non-downgraded versions) btw, why didn't the Malaysians just get more Hornets instead of getting the Fulcrums..... the logistical burden just isn't worth it... thanx
-
you worry too much... although the R77 range can be as high as 100km... this is only applicable in a head to head attack with both the firing aircraft and the targeted aircraft at high altitude rushing towards each other at supersonic speed.Originally posted by Shotgun:Sweet mother of Mahathir!! You're another one of them owls! LoL!
Okay, even if the Malaysians recieve R77Es, what's the difference in operations enviroment? Cracked Solid Fuel? Jammed fins? Damaged seekers and god noes what? Maybe it's just an R77 body but R-27 brains. Hell, nobody knows for sure. If I was a pilot, I wouldn't want to find out only when my threat recievers go off.
And honestly, common sense dictates you don't base your most powerful weapons within destruction range of ur potential enemy. Again, If i was the Operations Exec of the RMAF, i would hide my "precious" MiG-29s and Su-30s nice and far from the easy reach of RSAF. Beyond artillery, heavily protected by Surface to air equipment, and beside some kampong. Loft them when I need them, and land them to re-arm. Oh, of course, thats where the Storm Shadows come in. Along with UAVs for BDA.
I'd give my Honest to God opinion. Whether they are Downgraded export version or not, they are still a threat. Honor the F*cking threat.
*PS, I wonder if our E-2Cs can be configured to provide command inertia guidance for our AMRAAMS*
in a dog chase... the R77 range actually dropped to 25km with the targeted aircraft flying away from the firing aircraft at high altitude.
At low altitude.... like NOE flying by the RSAF falcons... the R77 effective firing range plunged to only 20km. heck... even the F-5 tiger with python 4 can play play with RMAF mig.
so fuck the hype on the R77 having 100km range...lah.
if i am a RSAF pilot... i will just use my wild weaseal couple with Hawkeye guidance and go low terrain flying... although if need to, i can fly at night with LANTIRN, until i close the gap against the RMAF mig to within AIM120C range and let then fly.... straight at the malaysian migs... who are still probably eye balling their jammed radars.
so... the situation aint that bad.