Singapore At War
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According to Defence Analysis:
One sign of Dassault's desperation is the plethora of options that the co. and the French govt. are offering in export support. "What do you want? You can have it!" Which possibly raises a question in many customer's minds: if the aircraft is as good as it claimed, why offer all the options?
The fact that is known that the existing model is underpowered, especially in HOT and HIGH conditions (Singapore).
Another problem. Why buy a Rafale F2/Block 05 standard aircraft for delivery at the end of 2004 when you can get a better version in 2006? HMS and full weapons capability were not ready on this standard aircraft. But were on offer fromthe Grippen and Tyhoon from the start.
On top of this, Rafale F3/Block 10 will see an active array radar replacing existing passive E-scan RBE2. Now, there tends to be a rule of thumb: if there are that many chances in a programme, then wait until thehome customer had taken delivery of the system and had discovered all the bugs. this could mean that potential clients wait until well after 2005 before looking at Rafale. -
the malaysian dont want to deploy high profile asset on the spratelys' because they believe that deploying high profilers like fulcrum and hornet would definitely elicit a similar response from other contestant nations, especially china.Originally posted by rsafpage:I don't have range/endurance figures at the top my head. But does someone know the range/combat radius comparisons of the MiG-29-F/A-18C/D-Hawk 100/200? Theres got to be a reason why the RMAF is using the Hawks to keep watch over the Spratlys instead of the MiGs or Bugs(from Labuan).
Derby? What Derby? What Python IV? Never heard of it
so... out of fear of china... the RMAF feels the hawks is best.. since it is considered of low profile and very much a trainer aircraft with strike capability. on the other hand... if they place the fulcrum at the spratelys.. it could end up facing chinese flankers or vietnamese MIG...
as far as malaysia is concern... it is laying a claim... it doesnt want a war.. just think... if malaysia start a dog fight with china... do you think russia will still provide spare parts for RMAF migs... considering the close ties of china and russia??
so... to malaysia... the RMAF already lost the war before it is started... so there seems little point in proving it with shot down migs of their air force. -
And accordng to local sources we *don't* have Python IV or Derby. We don't have any other AAMs other than the Sidewinders and Sparrows you hear??!!Originally posted by YourFather:Python 4 is the Isreali indigenously developed short range AAM. It has an excellent fuse, its HMS capable and is considered alongside the AA-11 Archer to be the best short range AAMs around.(AIM-9L nowhere near) The Derby is a dual short/medium range AAM just released by Rafael(?), I think... not much is known about it...... Can someone give more detailed specs about the Mig-29s of Malaysia and the specs of their Adders....( as in how they differ from the non-downgraded versions) btw, why didn't the Malaysians just get more Hornets instead of getting the Fulcrums..... the logistical burden just isn't worth it... thanx -
I think its not so much as not wanting to start a war, its not having enough balls to take on the Spratly power-brokers. They have the guts to chase and achieve missile lock on PhilAF OV-10 Broncos but not enough to take on China and Vietnam.Originally posted by tripwire:the malaysian dont want to deploy high profile asset on the spratelys' because they believe that deploying high profilers like fulcrum and hornet would definitely elicit a similar response from other contestant nations, especially china.
so... out of fear of china... the RMAF feels the hawks is best.. since it is considered of low profile and very much a trainer aircraft with strike capability. on the other hand... if they place the fulcrum at the spratelys.. it could end up facing chinese flankers or vietnamese MIG...
as far as malaysia is concern... it is laying a claim... it doesnt want a war.. just think... if malaysia start a dog fight with china... do you think russia will still provide spare parts for RMAF migs... considering the close ties of china and russia??
so... to malaysia... the RMAF already lost the war before it is started... so there seems little point in proving it with shot down migs of their air force.
Hmmm...missile lock on a plane of a fellow ASEAN member flying in international(although contested) airspace...hardly a sign of "ASEAN spirit" is it? -
ASEAN spirit??? harlo... you talking about malaysia leh... this god forsaken country dont give shit about spirit or no spirit.. they can just break any words or treatys as they see fit one... they are like the local hooligans... ever try talking sense to hooligans???Originally posted by rsafpage:I think its not so much as not wanting to start a war, its not having enough balls to take on the Spratly power-brokers. They have the guts to chase and achieve missile lock on PhilAF OV-10 Broncos but not enough to take on China and Vietnam.
Hmmm...missile lock on a plane of a fellow ASEAN member flying in international(although contested) airspace...hardly a sign of "ASEAN spirit" is it?
PhilAF is weak mah... so they wack lah... fuck the spirit... try that on more powerful nation like singapore, thailand and indonesia and soon enough you will see the 'ASEAN spirit' on their media blasting the rest of us....
fuck them lah. -
My Dig on the "bugs."
The Hornet is totally a jackshit aircraft to maintain on airbases. The Airframe, thrust to weight ratio, is designed specifically to operate on carriers. Hence the little under-carriage problems the M'sians had up north. (rumors, unconfirmd) I feel that the hornet is more suited to the mud-moving role than the interceptor/fighter role. According to some Air Force puke, he said the F/A-18 Can out maneuver and out-turn the F-16 and Mig-29, when unarmed. I seriously doubt modern combat aircraft are designed to fly "unarmed." However, its versatile air-frame almost guarantees it to be "suitable" for any role. Word says that a new F/A-18G "growler" would be out to replace the existing EA6-B Prowlers
Anyway about the combat radius.
The F/A-18C/D has an approx combat radius of 537km.
The combat radius of the MiG-29 is probably between 750 to 850km.
As for the hawk, it has a range of 2500km+, which leaves its combat radius around 1250+km. Longer legs than their MiGs and BuGs.
Asean Spirit? What kinda ASEAN spirit made that Malaysian MiG-29 Shadow a 747 into Singaporean airspace? They thought that by hiding under a jumbo jet, our EW aircraft can't see them. I feel that if anybody tries anything funny with us, we should give them a nice shrill on their threat recievers. Send a clear message, "Stand down or you'll be swimming with the sharks."
[This message has been edited by Shotgun (edited 22 August 2001).] -
Guess whose F-16A is this?
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Hmmmm, i managed to trace the records of 47 Tornado IDS and ADV, sold to RSAF. Wierd... What is the RSAF doing with Tornados? Or is it the Royal Saudi Air Force in question here?
Had to recount... geeeze! Jane's probably mistook the Royal Saudi Air Force for ours! They wrongfully featured Tornados with RSAF insignias on them in Jane's F-15E.
Singapore would never be dumb enough to buy such an underpowered plane.
[This message has been edited by Shotgun (edited 22 August 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Shotgun (edited 22 August 2001).] -
hahahahaha u guyz sure about all those information that ur government have??? get fuck ok..... let me tell u what,.... we Malaysian can fuck u all singaporean easily..... our mighty air- force and Navy was the best in Asia and our ground fighter can easily slaughter ur commando's and all suck infantry man..... hahahahahhahhahhaah
singaporean.... REMEMBER THIS.... WITHOUT WE MALAYSAIN FUCKING YOUR MOTHER.... U THINK U GUYS WILL BE AROUND???
FUCK SINGAPORE!!!! CLEAN UR ASS AND WAIT FOR US...... MATE!!! -
i will always support PAP forever. oppositions stir questionable doubt in the general population. THEY always do stupid things like get brained washed people to shout from MRT station about our lousy government(Which is all false).
And create stupid messages like this in our forums...everyone knows that singapore's military is the most effective in the whole of SEA. Having already completed my NS i would comment our army at being ready 24 hours to diffuse any threats. I am forever 100% for singapore. -
well you have an obvious case of disillusionment. Your own country is rampant with crime and poverty. People are running amok with M16s and gunning your own people and your government can't even stop that...Originally posted by RMN-NO1:hahahahaha u guyz sure about all those information that ur government have??? get fuck ok..... let me tell u what,.... we Malaysian can fuck u all singaporean easily..... our mighty air- force and Navy was the best in Asia and our ground fighter can easily slaughter ur commando's and all suck infantry man..... hahahahahhahhahhaah
singaporean.... REMEMBER THIS.... WITHOUT WE MALAYSAIN FUCKING YOUR MOTHER.... U THINK U GUYS WILL BE AROUND???
FUCK SINGAPORE!!!! CLEAN UR ASS AND WAIT FOR US...... MATE!!!
if your own fucked up government can't even control your own country...i say they can't even control a wet dream.
Singapore has been stable economically for decades. You guys are trailing shit years behind so don't talk cock and embarasse your nation...
talking about malaysians...every time i am in JB i feel your guys there lack muscle mass and are damn thin...also certain parts the smell is horrible...don't know what it is...but it sure ain't shit... -
It is often rumoured that the RSAF has taken delivery of the Python 4.... though I am not convinced that we really do have it, i assure you....Originally posted by rsafpage:And accordng to local sources we *don't* have Python IV or Derby. We don't have any other AAMs other than the Sidewinders and Sparrows you hear??!!
1 more thing.... I heard that Singapore has the Harpy anti-radiation UAV... is that true??? Furthermore, some people said that our F-16s were seen with HTS pods, and so they extrapolated that we had HARMS... kinda hard to believe.... -
Err... ya right. If you had actually seen the pathetic state of your MiGs, you'd realise how pitiful you are for posting this.Originally posted by RMN-NO1:hahahahaha u guyz sure about all those information that ur government have??? get fuck ok..... let me tell u what,.... we Malaysian can fuck u all singaporean easily..... our mighty air- force and Navy was the best in Asia and our ground fighter can easily slaughter ur commando's and all suck infantry man..... hahahahahhahhahhaah
singaporean.... REMEMBER THIS.... WITHOUT WE MALAYSAIN FUCKING YOUR MOTHER.... U THINK U GUYS WILL BE AROUND???
FUCK SINGAPORE!!!! CLEAN UR ASS AND WAIT FOR US...... MATE!!!
Most Malaysians i know are nice people, UNLIKE yourself. -
Oh Allah!! How you could allow such an idiot cum bastard to be your follower?Originally posted by RMN-NO1:hahahahaha u guyz sure about all those information that ur government have??? get fuck ok..... let me tell u what,.... we Malaysian can fuck u all singaporean easily..... our mighty air- force and Navy was the best in Asia and our ground fighter can easily slaughter ur commando's and all suck infantry man..... hahahahahhahhahhaah
singaporean.... REMEMBER THIS.... WITHOUT WE MALAYSAIN FUCKING YOUR MOTHER.... U THINK U GUYS WILL BE AROUND???
FUCK SINGAPORE!!!! CLEAN UR ASS AND WAIT FOR US...... MATE!!!
The following is not suitable for under 21. so can't post.
I hope to have the chance to run this S.O.B down. Err... correction, I'll rent a Proton Sa qua to run him down. My Honda is too precious.
[This message has been edited by hardware (edited 22 August 2001).] -
The less I say about the (circumstantial) evidence I've seen to rebut that statement the better(for me!!)... LOLOriginally posted by YourFather:It is often rumoured that the RSAF has taken delivery of the Python 4.... though I am not convinced that we really do have it, i assure you.... -
i may b wrong. But as far as i noe, the tail chase range of AIM-120 is 22.5 km. This is still inferior 2 the R-77.ALso, the MIGs i doubt they have such long combat radius, longer den f-18.. n 1 more thing. R-77 E has a combat range of onli 75km
[This message has been edited by F-14 Tomcat (edited 22 August 2001).] -
Combat radius does not equal range divided by 2. You have to factor in stuff like warload, mission profile(hi-lo-hi, lo-lo-lo etc) and stuff like power settings over target, loiter time over target etc. Range specs are often taken from manufacturers data for aircraft in clean condition(no warloads), max internal fuel, and most econ power setting(ie cruise). IIRC to estimate combat radius its best ot use a figure of around 30% max range.
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All the combat radius given were clean. No warload. Except the F/A-18 I think. They included 2 1000lbs bombs as warload. As for the hawk, I only managed to get the range, divide by 2 is good enuff for me. LOL
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Let's make F-16C as the bench mark for combat radius. As the infomations are more detailed,Originally posted by Shotgun:All the combat radius given were clean. No warload. Except the F/A-18 I think. They included 2 1000lbs bombs as warload. As for the hawk, I only managed to get the range, divide by 2 is good enuff for me. LOL
1,370km with 2 2,000lbs bombs + 2 AIM9 + 1040 gal external tank.
630km with 4 2,000lbs bombs + 2 AIM9 + 340 gal external tank.
370km + 2hr 10min patrol with 2 AIM7 + 2 AIM9 + 1040 gal external tank.
Maximum take off weight: 16,875kg.
EF-2000 Eurofighter:
Ground attack, lo-lo-lo: 601kms
Ground attack, hi-lo-hi: 1389kms
Air defence with 3hr CAP: 185kms
Air defence with 10 min loiter: 1389kms
Maximum take off weight: 21,000kg
Trip, can you explain on the weaponary of the EF-2000 for the above mentioned type of attacks. -
According to the company website. Air superiority load outs as follows...Originally posted by hardware:Let's make F-16C as the bench mark for combat radius. As the infomations are more detailed,
1,370km with 2 2,000lbs bombs + 2 AIM9 + 1040 gal external tank.
630km with 4 2,000lbs bombs + 2 AIM9 + 340 gal external tank.
370km + 2hr 10min patrol with 2 AIM7 + 2 AIM9 + 1040 gal external tank.
Maximum take off weight: 16,875kg.
EF-2000 Eurofighter:
Ground attack, lo-lo-lo: 601kms
Ground attack, hi-lo-hi: 1389kms
Air defence with 3hr CAP: 185kms
Air defence with 10 min loiter: 1389kms
Maximum take off weight: 21,000kg
Trip, can you explain on the weaponary of the EF-2000 for the above mentioned type of attacks.
6 x BVRAAM (probably AIM-120C or wateve secret weapon)
6 x ASRAAM (Sidewinders, and "others")
2 x 1500 litre fuel tank
1 x 1000 litre fuel tank
Thats a shitload of fuel.
As for ground attack, are we gonna get the brimstone and storm shadow?
I dun care if we get brimstone or not, but the Storm Shadow... mmmm *slurp*
2 x Storm Shadow
2 x Alarm
4 x AMRAAM
2 x ASRAAM
2 x 1500 litre fuel tank
1 x 1000 litre fuel tank
Any what kinda air-to-ground weapons will be made available to RSAF trip? -
Uhh, sorry, but can Trip explain what is that ICM shell thingie that FH2000s are supposed to fire?Originally posted by tripwire:we do have the ICM shells for the arty's FH2000 which is a terror to behold.. far worst than the MRLS...that malaysia can hope to challenge in terms of destruction and cost (cheap cheap)... too bad malaysia wont get those ICMs cos... nobody is selling them... its either u make urself OR.... u can keep eyeballing it from a distance.
As for the 90km astro II MRLS.... its a problem of course... that's where the apache comes in... and if a few dozen rocket is gonna make singapore shake... think of the earthquake the RSAF would deliver to KL with FAEs... in the end... we lost a few flats... they loose a few cities and KL gets the honor of being burns to ashes by RSAF.
Runway denial bomblets?? firing from 90KM away.... they have to pray damn hard that it can hit the runway by luck... afterall rockets have no guidance...
Anyway... its a good excuse for us to start putting some money into ABM systems like patriot or the S300. even the land base Barak AMM could be useful in knocking those rockets out of the sky.
But... we will probably overdo it again... malaysia always talk very very very big one.. like the MIG-29 lies... all a bunch of bullshit... they got a few MIG-29A and calls it 29M, then later call it 29N and all the high tales of the AMRAAMSKI when in truth... their Mig-29 cant carry it until much much later after 3 phase of refurbishing. while during this time we got ourselves as many as 70 falcons of the latest model with AMRAAM to boot.
Now that malaysia claim they are getting the 90km range 4 tube version instead of the 24km range 12 tube version....... a year later wait u see SAF with thoudsands of FIREFLYs aimed at every malaysian towns and cities. denial us the runway and at most our pilot shake leg lor.... but when those missiles flies towards malaysia... god help them.
bottom line... we got the money , we got the technology.. they wanna play with us.... go home and look at their face in their own piss.
At the most... for every MRLS malaysia buys... we can buy ten times as many from the same manufacturer if there is no other better system available. GOT MONEY CAN CRUSH DEAD A MAN. -
ICM = Improved conventional munitions.
What it does, I have no idea. Usually ICMs come in 2 flavours. APICM, Anti-personnel ICMs, and DPICM, Dual-Purpose ICMs.
What Kinda ICM Singapore has, I am totally clueless.
As for the FH-2000, officially it fires the M107 155mm rounds. The rounds have extended range, how much, I don't know. Any idea on the range anybody?
With the presence of the Bionix chassis, i cannot help but wonder the possibilities it has brought. Singapore an easily build a self-propelled MRLS system, using the Bionix's chassis of course.
Some info on the Astros II
Missile Launcher Systems
Avibras Astros II MLRS
Image: 1 2
Crew: 7
Weight: 20.000 kgs
Dimensions: Length 8m, Height 2.6m, Width 2.4m
Range: 650 kms
Armour: None
Armament: 1 Launcher Vehicle is armed with 6x grenade launchers AND 32x 127mm launchers OR 16x 180mm launchers OR 4x 300mm launchers AND 1x heavy machine gun
Powerplant: 280 hp, water-cooled turbocharged, diesel engine
Performance: Road 70kmh, Off Road 40 kmh
Other Notes: As stated by army-technology.com:
"Most of the ASTROSÂ’ outstanding features are still exclusive"
"Capability of Firing five different types of rockets, utilizing the same Launcher Vehicle, and delivering a massive blow on targets located from 9 up to 90 kilometers"
"The best area coverage with eight types of warheads and unmatched accuracy"
"The same Basic Vehicle Platform for the Launcher Vehicle, Ammunition Supply Vehicle and the Mobile Workshops, Command and Control and Fire Control Vehicle thus providing total interchange ability"
Looks pretty huh? I wonder if its unmatched accuracy is true or not?
[This message has been edited by Shotgun (edited 23 August 2001).] -
According to the Defense Ministry, the Derby is capable of dealing with electronic warfare measures thanks to the homing device developed by the Israel Aircraft Industries' Mabat plant. He said the Derby is already operational after being tested in many successful launches. The Defense Ministry added that the missile can be adapted for modern fighters, including small aircraft like the F-16, Mirage (which is operational in South Africa) and F-5's, used by the air forces in Brazil, Turkey, and Singapore.
God, I love the internet! -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
Couple of questions: could I have a source, for the above statement? And whos Defence Ministry is the quote attributed to, I assume Israel?
[b]According to the Defense Ministry, the Derby is capable of dealing with electronic warfare measures thanks to the homing device developed by the Israel Aircraft Industries' Mabat plant. He said the Derby is already operational after being tested in many successful launches. The Defense Ministry added that the missile can be adapted for modern fighters, including small aircraft like the F-16, Mirage (which is operational in South Africa) and F-5's, used by the air forces in Brazil, Turkey, and Singapore.
[/B] -
More fuel to the Rafale vs EF2000 fire, courtesy of Air Forces monthly forum:
Basically in A/A, current Typhoon and Rafale are on par, with the following measured:
- AMRAAM vs MICA(both will eventually get Meteor)
- T/W ratio sees original Typhoon with the lead, although with the new A/G requirements for Typhoon and M88-3s for export Rafales we're back to even stevens
- Turn/climb rates are pretty similar
- RBE2 vs CAPTOR radar. RBE2 is more advanced, but performance doesn't difer much. Both are scheduled to receive AMSAR anyway, but the Rafale will be 4 yesrs before Typhoon.
- Rafale has TV for its passive search/track system
As you can see, we're in a virtual dead heat here, the so called weight advantages Typhoon had was due to its originally being designed for the counter air role in mind. Adding in the A/G burdens Rafale takes a pretty strong lead, which even Eurofighter concedes, as Rafale has
- more hardpoints capable of carrying fuel tanks, more harpoints for carrying heavy loads, and more hardpoints.
- was designed from the outset with multirole in mind, while Typhoon was added A/G role later. Hence Eurofighter uses the A/A Typhoons data to lie about its AUW
- With increased tanks and CFTs, it can easily fulfil our range requirements
- It has passive track and search systems along with a "active stealth" EW suite, and is generally more "cutting edge" than Typhoon
A look at our requirements or the new fighter will easily see what is better suited. Now just hope that those who decide feel the same way...
Besides,(here me being flippant again), someone once likened the Rafale with CFTs as being a cross between Ashley Judd and JLo. Anything that looks like thats gonna get my vote!