Singapore At War
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woW. 90!!!! It may be old but highly armoured. No wonder our neighbours dare not lay a finger on us.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:I am a new user here and have been looking at this forum for some time.
From what I know, in 1975 singapore bought 63 mk3 and mk7 centurions from india.This was later supplemented by a couple more from isreal in 1994, bringing the total force to more than 90. Thes centurions were upgraded to isreali'sdefence force standard with new engines guns etc. These upgraded centurions were known as Tempest in the SAF. -
Hi guys. CenturionMBT, may i know where you get the book you are talking about, never heard about this book. Centurion is old, but i think that SAF never operate lousy weapon. One thing i'm sure is that we will never be able to see the Tempest in Singapore. A MBT can't move freely in the narrow streets, roads and carparks in Singapore.
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The book "Defending the lion city" is written by tim huxley.It could be found in NLB or any bookstores.Its ISBN number is 1-86508-118-3.
Anyway about singapore not using old equipments,there is still a possibility that the centurions are still used in service.Based from the fact that the combat engineers bridge laying M60 could travel on the road during NDP 2000 proves that MBTs could travel on the singapore's roads.
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THe centurion could travel on the streets if wants to.But, in order not to provoke her neighbours, the government never admited that she operate MBTs.Remember the time when malaysia started to complain when singapore bought the AIM120C AMMRAAM? The government is trying to prevent these kinds of issues. Otherwise, an arms race may occur.
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Well, got to admit that SAf is always ahead of its neighbours that there may be a possibility of sparking off an arms race. Actually, operating old equipments may not be a bad thing, as long as we remain victorious among our neughbours. BY the way, the AMRAAMs have not even reacjed Singapore, Malaysia has nutin to be worried about.
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It's interesting to note that many here seems to see Malaysia as our prime threat. In a number of ways, SG need to be wary of our neighbors. IMHO, the Biggest threat of all is the big one up in the North, flying a red flag with a Big Yellow star, lying claims over the Spratley islands and Taiwan.
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Singapore, being surrounded by muslim countries,is in a way, the Isreal of south east asia.Thats why most of us feel that our neighbours are a threat to us. Furthurmore, our politial relationship with malaysia and indonasia are not very good.But even so,I don't believe that there would be a war in SEA.And even if malaysia decide to have a war with singapore we have allies furthur up north(Thailand).In an event of a war, Singapore and Thailand would form a pincer attack on Malaysia.But lets remember that war would cause great loss to all parties.So, lets just wish for everlasting peace.
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anyway, about singapore's F-16s having thrust vectoring, may I know where this source came from? I don't see anything about thrust vectoring on RSAF jets from all materials I have read.:B
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I've seen many pictures of RSAF F16 from websites, magazines and Pioneer. Some pictures features F16D with afterburner that looks like Thrust Vectoring nozzles. They look extremely alike but i don't think that RSAF F16s has thrust vectoring.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:anyway, about singapore's F-16s having thrust vectoring, may I know where this source came from? I don't see anything about thrust vectoring on RSAF jets from all materials I have read.:B -
F-16A/B no AVEN
F-16C/D got AVEN....the aven looks like a normal nozzle of any F-16 engine nozzle.
But if u have not seen an AVEN....chances is....u wont recognize it....even if i put it right next to your face.
often people relates vector thrust engine to square or box shape engine. but AVEN is even better....since it can redirect thrust in any of the 360 degree direction at 20 degree angle off the usual centre of thrust. -
All right then. RSAF F16C is great. AVEN, BVR capability, high manoeuverability, fly-by-wire controls. But the exact number of F16C and F16D the RSAF operates is never certain. Each one of us seen different sources and have different numbers. Tripwire, how many do you think the RSAF operates. What i think is sure to be more than 60 but the fact is that a government will never reveal the exact amount of this particular weapon that they operates to the public but even so, the Pioneer says that there are 42 of them, there may be more but certainly not less.
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Tripwire is right. Lets talk about Indonesia's armed forces. This post is so HOT but no one seems to notice Indonesia, who talked cock about Singapore infront of our minister. Who knows about the Indonesia Army. The TNI-AU(Air Force) is weak. 12 F16A/B, Hawk fighters(trainers), OV10 Bronco, A4E, F5. About the Navy, i know nothing. About the Army, i know that they are using very old APCs when i watch the news.
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From what I know. The TNI troops uses the FNC-FN Assault rifles as standards. http://www.securityarms2.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1000/1069.htm
Their webbings looks better than the SAF though.
TNI also have some older version of the AMX-13 light Tanks.
I think they have the old AMX-VCI APCs too but I believe they do have something newer. http://gigene.homestead.com/VCI.html
BTW: It is said that TNI do have some T-72 MBTs, anyone have any info on this? -
From what i know indonesia has 300 light tanks,750 APCS but no MBTS.singapore on the other hand have 350 amx-13 and 90+ mbts.anyway,was it true that RSAF ordered another 20 F-16CD in July 2000,if not,the total force of F-16CDs would be 50 excluding the 12 leased from US.
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From my personal view, Indonesia army and navy was much much more stronger then MalaysiaÂ…. As for their air force, Im not very sure abt itÂ….Originally posted by Patriotic Tim:Tripwire is right. Lets talk about Indonesia's armed forces. This post is so HOT but no one seems to notice Indonesia, who talked cock about Singapore infront of our minister. Who knows about the Indonesia Army. The TNI-AU(Air Force) is weak. 12 F16A/B, Hawk fighters(trainers), OV10 Bronco, A4E, F5. About the Navy, i know nothing. About the Army, i know that they are using very old APCs when i watch the news.
If u wanna compare their navy with the RSN, then I think they are quite compatible with us. The indo operate in a larger fleet of warship then both Malaysia and us!!!. Think thisÂ’s basically becoz of thousands of island to be taken care of!!! As for the total nos of shipsÂ…. I really cant recall now. Coz I have left the forces for more then 4 yearsÂ… and those warship name that I had listed below was totally base on my memories.. so there might be some spelling mistake. On top of that, the nos being accounted for might be incorrect as well.
For what I know, there are quite a few frigates that are highly equipped with powerful weapon.
Their frigates such as,
6 Van Speijk class
3 x Fatahilah class
3 x Tribal class
More then 10 corvettesÂ…Â….. and lots moreÂ…Â….
What I get to know was, they seldom send their Van speijk class to ex with our navy. Their Fatahilah class was one of the best ship in our region!!! Think both of them did equipped with ECM, ECCM and ESM and they arm with harpoon and lots more Â…. Their Singa class petrol vessels was well equipped as wellÂ….
Anyway, if any of u wanna gain more info on the Indo navyÂ… u guys can take a look at the JaneÂ’s fighting shipÂ…. This book has very detail description on their navyÂ…
Btw, if u guys have ever involved in the Five nation defense power (something like that, as for those guyz that served in the RSNÂ… think u guyz should know abt the Start-Fish EX!!!!!! Kekekke scared rite???) itÂ’s a EX that assume war situation when Indo launch a attack towards MÂ’sia and Sin (from my officer)the main objectiveÂ’s was to prepared ourself again the threat from indo!! By nowÂ…. Think u guyz must never underestimate the Indo forcesÂ… it would be easy to handle those pigs at North but not those at SouthÂ…
*simon the snow blower... u r still in the forces rite??? think u guyz should know more then me.... care to update me on this area???
*frog-man....... kekek i dont think u know much on this area..... u carry on ur dive lah.....
Opssssss, yup, why I never mention abt their submarineÂ…. ThatÂ’s becoz initially they have 3 subÂ…. However, due to supporting and technical problemsÂ… non of them are able to SUB now!! Kekekkeekkekk
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If you bleed more in peace,
You will bleed less in war,
Coz the only easy day was yesterday....
[This message has been edited by NDU (edited 01 June 2001).] -
check it out!!! lots of navy info in this website!!! http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/asiapac/
cheers
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If you bleed more in peace,
You will bleed less in war,
Coz the only easy day was yesterday.... -
Hi everyone. i came back with information on the TNI-AU(Air) and the TNI-AD(Army).
The TNI-AD indeed had AMX13s, but were earliest models , some armed with auto-cannons and machine guns only. They operates more than 270 AMX13. They got 30 PT76 medium tanks and 50 Scorpion ligh tank( 30 armed iwth 90mm guns). They got no IFV like Singapore but poorly armoured old APCs.
Well, they indeed operated 200 AMX-VCI MICV from the 1960s, 50 AMX10PAC90(Modern standard), 55 Sacaren APC, 58 V150 commandoes and 130 BTR40. Their Armour size is indeed bigger than Singapore but it will take more than 1 armour to knock down a Singapore Armour!
As for the TNI-AU, the best they can offer is the 10 F16A/B Vipers they operates. Together with the F16A/B in their air defence role is 12 F5E/F Tigers. They got 22 A4E/TA4E Skyhawks and 40 Hawks of various variants as their attack unit. They also fly some 12 OV-10F Bronco light attack aircraft from the Vietnam War. -
Its true. The numbers i get is a total of 66 F16C/D, excluding those leased from US for training. If you want to know where the planes and bases are positioned, which squadron the RSAF jets belonged to , go to WWW.Scramble.nlOriginally posted by CenturionMBT:From what i know indonesia has 300 light tanks,750 APCS but no MBTS.singapore on the other hand have 350 amx-13 and 90+ mbts.anyway,was it true that RSAF ordered another 20 F-16CD in July 2000,if not,the total force of F-16CDs would be 50 excluding the 12 leased from US. -
Its true. The numbers i get is a total of 66 F16C/D, excluding those leased from US for training. If you want to know where the planes and bases are positioned, which squadron the RSAF jets belonged to , go to WWW.Scramble.nlOriginally posted by CenturionMBT:From what i know indonesia has 300 light tanks,750 APCS but no MBTS.singapore on the other hand have 350 amx-13 and 90+ mbts.anyway,was it true that RSAF ordered another 20 F-16CD in July 2000,if not,the total force of F-16CDs would be 50 excluding the 12 leased from US. -
i dont think anyone now can tell exactly how many F-16s does RSAF have.. they are very good in hiding these figures.Originally posted by Patriotic Tim:All right then. RSAF F16C is great. AVEN, BVR capability, high manoeuverability, fly-by-wire controls. But the exact number of F16C and F16D the RSAF operates is never certain. Each one of us seen different sources and have different numbers. Tripwire, how many do you think the RSAF operates. What i think is sure to be more than 60 but the fact is that a government will never reveal the exact amount of this particular weapon that they operates to the public but even so, the Pioneer says that there are 42 of them, there may be more but certainly not less.
But from all my sources...the number stands somewhere between 60 to 79 falcons..and more is coming in..to replace that A-4 skyhawks.
Originally, the F-16s were suppose to replace the hunters..now it would seems that RSAF intends to use the falcons to replace the skyhawks as well...
Considering the number of skyhawks and hunters together....it would take at least around 120 to 150 falcons to replace all of them... obvioulsy using a single multirole aircraft would significantly reduce the maintainace outlay and training then say maintaining 3 different types of aircraft.
still dont know what the RSAF have in mind to replace those 50 (and still rising) tigerIIs
Heard that once the A4s are decommissioned, they will become test beds and possible eventual "pilotless" remote fighter bomber.
SO!!! any guys and gals and those who wear specks can soon also become pilots of RSAF!!! -
Indonesia is a big country with size in almost everything.Originally posted by Patriotic Tim:Tripwire is right. Lets talk about Indonesia's armed forces. This post is so HOT but no one seems to notice Indonesia, who talked cock about Singapore infront of our minister. Who knows about the Indonesia Army. The TNI-AU(Air Force) is weak. 12 F16A/B, Hawk fighters(trainers), OV10 Bronco, A4E, F5. About the Navy, i know nothing. About the Army, i know that they are using very old APCs when i watch the news.
they have on paper 1 million soldier. in truth only 300,000 are really soldiers, the rest carries no more then a pistol and wears a uniform just to maintain peace and order in the wide sprawling indonesian archeopelogo.
they have alot of tanks including the PT-76 from russia, but these have fallen into disuse due to suhartos' pro western policy after he took over from sukarno. other tanks are lacking in maintainance and spareparts due to financial constraints.
I seriously doubt those tin cans of indonesia can withstand the onslaught of SAF's milan, spike,84, ICM,hellfire, LAW,AGM-65......and blah blah blah....in a conventional war.
Furthermore, for those tanks to be useful against singapore, those tanks must first reach singapore. in view of the severe lackings in Amphibious capability of teh TNI navy....its gonna take a miracle to land a tank on singapore beach admist the barrage of harpoon, exocet and torpedos from RSAF and RSN.
And since indonesia isnt able to produce their own warships and LSTs....its gonna be hard for them to get replacements... and once those ships went under....i seriously dont think anyone can haul a tank across the singapore strait (40km wide) using sampans. 8> furthermore, the FH-2000 of SAF can hit batam from east coast with its 42km range.
The indonesian airforce is also severely crippled by economic woes. it has afew nice planes but honestly....i dont think it can even take on RMAF much less RSAF.
I seriously do not think indonesia is capable of attacking singapore in a conventional war....but i must say...they got lots of cheap lives to throw in a guerrila attack or sabotage expedition.
BUT obviously, such an attack would not happens nowadays as long as RSAF maintain its undisputed leadership in SEA.
because undoubtedly such a sabotage attack would draw singapore to take out indonesia economic infrastructure where it will really hurt alot with RSAF bombing OR using the LALEE. so...i think the indonesians will think twice before starting another konfrontasi against singapore.
ON the other hand. if indonesia wanna wack somebody, i think east malaysia would be THE perfect target...
east malaysia has land link with kalimantan a.k.a. indonesian tanks can just roll over the border, malaysia has no tanks in the entire east malaysia.
indonesia's 300,000 army would be more then a match against the pitiful 30,000 malaysian half baked, half trainned, half equipped soldier of MAF since MAF dont like the idea of giving non 'FULL MALAY' units weapons that would 'compromise' the malays' dominance.
Futhermore, taking out east malaysia would be easy as no way can malaysia send reinforcement in time from west malaysia. in fact, it is doubtful IF malaysia would send ANY reinforcement considering the fact that sumatra is next to KL where the seat of the MALAY power is!
OH!! east malaysia is not under the FPDA or IADS... u see.....eh.... east malaysia isnt near singapore. those brits, aussie and NZs are only interested in defending singapore... not the whole malaysia per se.
but we should all realise that in SEA, no country can go to war without foreign superpower support, including indonesia.
BECAUSE...most SEA nations dont have a really robust military industry to support such a conflict and neither the economic strength to support such a war effort with the exception of singapore.
BUT even singapore would not risk going to war. singapore's abilities are renowned and well known by all. but as long as singapore are not openly threatened by anyone, it is doubtful singaporeans would wanna go to war over land and water (the usual simpleton argument of malaysian on singapore attacking them. hahaaaa...) since these can easily be bought using $$$$.
IN fact.. why risk ur lives for a piece of land (like johor) which wil be owned by the govt. when u can buy one for a song and have the malaysian law and police and army to throw out ANY malaysians who so dare to trespass UR LAND!!;>
why bother to ensalve others?? when u can just pay them to slave more money for u through investment?? muahahahaaaaa.........
BUT if we are not armed, not defended...then all our $$$ would no longer be ours to do as we please. SO WE still need SAF now and in the future to come. -
There a very famous phrase that even kids know....."Do not underestimate the your opponent". No,I'm not saying that Indonesia or Malaysia is our opponent. I'm just saying that we shouldn't think that we are invincible.
Let's not talk about the conditions of the war machines, let's not talk about whether are they well-maintained for war because I can tell you that every army is the same. You think all the 400+ Tanks/APC SAF are in full operationally status? I don't think so.
Okay, let's talk about the tanks of Indonesia. PT-76 is a Russian/Chinese tank. About the size of the BX, slightly lower profile when compared with AMX-13. It also has a good amphibious capability. The Tank was a potent 75mm cannon. Armor wise is not as thick is the AMX-13.(without addition armor)
AMX-10 is fully Amphibious. And very fast on water too cause it has specially built propellers for water missions. 90MM cannon can rip through a T-72 in a single shot. Relatively light armor without addition plates. The vehicle is very difficult to maintain due to many "delicated" parts. Even SAF complaints about the maintaince if it's AMX-10s.
AMX-VCI, although old, has a strong armor. It's even stronger than the PT-76 and the M113's aluminium armor. It has a lower profile too but the engine isn't as powerful. The standard Armament is weak too. It's also as cramp as hell inside.
Scorpion 90, dunno much but 90MM cannon?....nuff said.
V-150, BTR and saracen are very light-armored vehicles. But they are very Fast(wheeled)
Anyone knows anything about the Stormer APCs?
[This message has been edited by Silenthunter (edited 03 June 2001).] -
There is a great chance that the RSAF A4SU fleet would be replaced by a mixed force of F16D and the Eurofighter2000. presently, a squadron of A4SU had been decomissioned and replaced by F16Ds.Originally posted by tripwire:i dont think anyone now can tell exactly how many F-16s does RSAF have.. they are very good in hiding these figures.
But from all my sources...the number stands somewhere between 60 to 79 falcons..and more is coming in..to replace that A-4 skyhawks.
Originally, the F-16s were suppose to replace the hunters..now it would seems that RSAF intends to use the falcons to replace the skyhawks as well...
Considering the number of skyhawks and hunters together....it would take at least around 120 to 150 falcons to replace all of them... obvioulsy using a single multirole aircraft would significantly reduce the maintainace outlay and training then say maintaining 3 different types of aircraft.
still dont know what the RSAF have in mind to replace those 50 (and still rising) tigerIIs
Heard that once the A4s are decommissioned, they will become test beds and possible eventual "pilotless" remote fighter bomber.
SO!!! any guys and gals and those who wear specks can soon also become pilots of RSAF!!!
The most likely replacement for the F5S would also be the EF2000. The EF2000 is not primarily a fighter. It had good ground attack capability too. What i think is that one EF2000 would replace a F5S and an A4SU, but not for all the rest of the fleet. Some would eventually be replaced one for one. Maybe the RSAF may purchase the F16S. Go and check on the F16S, it is highly capable. -
The A4SU would be replaced by a mixed force of F16D and EF2000. Being able to take air supriority roles and attack roles, the EF2000 would also replace the F5S. If the RSAF really intends to purchase the EF2000, it would approximately purchase 70 Typhoons. Being able to undertake the mission of the Super Skyhawks and F5S, it will only need one Typhoon to replace 1 F5S and 1 Super Skyhawk. Eventually, the fleet would be minimised but still, maintain the power and capability of the previous large fleet.
From what i know, other than the 40> Super Skyhawks that are operational now, there are hundreds of Skyhawks stored in the storage. These may be used at fake targets for enemy attack aircrafts or maybe even become unmanned bombers, like what you had said.
Well, the Stormer is a British product. t is fast, agile and is a tracked APC. Its armour is not able to withstand the ipact of modern anti-tank projectiles but it can be armed with medium calibre weapons and automatic cannons. Its forward slope is a design that make it difficult to be destroyed by modern anti-tank missile fired at its front. Teh Malaysian Army is using it too. It can rival the Singapore Army Ultras but not the Bionix IFVs.
The PT-76 tanks are low-tech weapons. No source saying that the TNI-AD has any upgrade plans of it. As for the economic status of Indonesia now, maintaining these tanks may not be as important as providing quality weapons and equipments for the Riot police. Looking at the News, it tells us that Indonesia invested alot on providing quality bullet-proof vest for the police/troops. A standard weapon for all troops. Standard uniforms and equipments. So the not all Indonesian armour units is going to be operational. However, the air defence may not be very poor. Even though they had little modern fighters, they may be able to use their fleet as point defence fighters. With their Rapiers and thousands of low to high calibre anti-aircraft guns, they are ablt to defend the Capital for some time.
As for their Navy, they are good! They are big. Some with high tech weaponary and some with no missile at all. Even though their fleet is big, they will never make it on their way to Singapore( If someday they attack).
The Singapore Army, i believe not all 340> SM1 tanks are operational but the number of armour units we are able to put on the battle front is goiung to be bigger than both our Northern and Southern neighbours.
Ever thought about all SEA countries join forces to take down Chinese attacking Force. From the present political happenings and disputes and the large arms build up in China, this story of China as another Japan may become true. It all depends on the China government. Ziang Ze Min's service is over soon, perhaps for another year. The new government may be an ambitious one.
[This message has been edited by Patriotic Tim (edited 03 June 2001).] -
The A4SU would be replaced by a mixed force of F16D and EF2000. Being able to take air supriority roles and attack roles, the EF2000 would also replace the F5S. If the RSAF really intends to purchase the EF2000, it would approximately purchase 70 Typhoons. Being able to undertake the mission of the Super Skyhawks and F5S, it will only need one Typhoon to replace 1 F5S and 1 Super Skyhawk. Eventually, the fleet would be minimised but still, maintain the power and capability of the previous large fleet.
From what i know, other than the 40> Super Skyhawks that are operational now, there are hundreds of Skyhawks stored in the storage. These may be used at fake targets for enemy attack aircrafts or maybe even become unmanned bombers, like what you had said.
Well, the Stormer is a British product. t is fast, agile and is a tracked APC. Its armour is not able to withstand the ipact of modern anti-tank projectiles but it can be armed with medium calibre weapons and automatic cannons. Its forward slope is a design that make it difficult to be destroyed by modern anti-tank missile fired at its front. Teh Malaysian Army is using it too. It can rival the Singapore Army Ultras but not the Bionix IFVs.
The PT-76 tanks are low-tech weapons. No source saying that the TNI-AD has any upgrade plans of it. As for the economic status of Indonesia now, maintaining these tanks may not be as important as providing quality weapons and equipments for the Riot police. Looking at the News, it tells us that Indonesia invested alot on providing quality bullet-proof vest for the police/troops. A standard weapon for all troops. Standard uniforms and equipments. So the not all Indonesian armour units is going to be operational. However, the air defence may not be very poor. Even though they had little modern fighters, they may be able to use their fleet as point defence fighters. With their Rapiers and thousands of low to high calibre anti-aircraft guns, they are ablt to defend the Capital for some time.
As for their Navy, they are good! They are big. Some with high tech weaponary and some with no missile at all. Even though their fleet is big, they will never make it on their way to Singapore( If someday they attack).
The Singapore Army, i believe not all 340> SM1 tanks are operational but the number of armour units we are able to put on the battle front is goiung to be bigger than both our Northern and Southern neighbours.
Ever thought about all SEA countries join forces to take down Chinese attacking Force. From the present political happenings and disputes and the large arms build up in China, this story of China as another Japan may become true. It all depends on the China government. Ziang Ze Min's service is over soon, perhaps for another year. The new government may be an ambitious one.