Don't condemn people in AA
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ah square!!!Originally posted by M©+square:
long time no see u in sgf~! -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:50... Originally posted by caleb_chiang:[Post is too long. Click here to view this post.]
U ppl think AA is chit chat issit?Originally posted by browniebaobao:ah square!!!
long time no see u in sgf~!
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Andrew,
Please lor, why you kill so many brain cells for this so called "condemnation"?
It is not a crime issit ?
It is not a sin , issit ?
When a person kena verbal condemned.. does he/she goes straight to hell ?
Does he/she losses one limp?
So , why are you making such a big deal ?
What are you trying to achieve ?
yah lah, we all know lah.. verbal condemning is not very nice lah.
That's about lor. -
Since this is AA, I am trying to tell people not to live life with the attitude of condemn condemn condemn disease... because....Originally posted by jojobeach:Andrew,
Please lor, why you kill so many brain cells for this so called "condemnation"?
It is not a crime issit ?
It is not a sin , issit ?
When a person kena verbal condemned.. does he/she goes straight to hell ?
Does he/she losses one limp?
So , why are you making such a big deal ?
What are you trying to achieve ? Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:If someone is a condemning person in real life, they start to lose their relationships as well as their influence.
Look around you in school and or work and notice that some people never condemn others. See how they behave and how they react to situations.
Notice how many problems they solve and solve them effectively with the least amount of pain for all involved.
It takes skill and almost super human abilities to control their own emotions.
If you want to learn, learn from these people. It is easier to learn from a real life example. You can do it by thinking and reasoning but you need to be a very clear and honest thinker and you need to have vast experience in life.
If you live in a sheltered environment, sheltered by family, society and religion... it is almost impossible... your mind will be closed shut like a vault. -
Andrew,
Frankly, I think perhaps you worry too much for other people.
Those people who condemn others, do you really think they care about ruining the relationship at all ?
They don't care.
Even if that person really got cursed and end up with a broken body parts. The person who condemn will not feel a pinch, because they don't care about the person they condemn.
Nobody makes condemnation a habit or hobby.
Because there is nothing to gain, other than rantings of anger.
Same as cussing, you cuss at someone, does it hurt them ? No. But maybe you feel better . That's all.
So Andrew, I know you probably has good intentions, but going the way with "because you are not GOD" makes you look like a Fanatic.
Nobody likes a Fanatic as much as a "condemn-er" -
Allos!Originally posted by browniebaobao:ah square!!!
long time no see u in sgf~!
I'll only be around around this time of the year.
You going to Sentosa today? -
Andrew,
I understand what you're trying to do, even if we may not agree with each others opinions most of the time. But its not going to possible for everyone to give advise your way. We are all different, thats what makes each and everyone of us unique.
And sometimes it may look like we're condemning the TS but it may not be the case as well. If you expect each and everyone to think and act like a "Super Human" like you. It is once again not possible as the readers here are from different age groups.
And not to mention most of us if not all of us are not counselors. Who's to say that the harsh way is negative and your way is positive ?
And you believe that the brain is so unreliable, so can I safely say that even your point may not be the correct way as well?
And if I'm not wrong you mention we should not enforce our way of thinking onto others ??
You are doing it now, forcing others to see things your way.
No offence, I could be wrong.
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Why?Originally posted by M©+square:Allos!
I'll only be around around this time of the year.
You going to Sentosa today?
Cheers -
In AA we can only advise from our point of view.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:There are no perfect people in this world and that should be obvious to everyone except for those that think themselves perfect.
There are no perfect lifestyles in this world and that should be obvious to everyone except the those that think themselves living the perfect lifestyle.
Just because you prefer to live life in the "best possible manner" according to your standards, does not mean that others share your sentiments.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a perfect life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a disciplined life.
Some people prefer to live a happy life rather than a careful life.
If living a perfect, disciplined and careful life makes you unhappy, do you think you would want to? Live a perfect, disciplined and careful life? Maybe, if you are a religious fanatic that hopes to get to heaven.
What makes one person happy does not necessarily makes another happy.
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If you are not happy with someone's behavior, you can condemn the person or you can condemn the action.
If you condemn the person and classify him as "Evil" or "Bad" you are behaving like a "GOD". That is to say, you presume that you know everything and can weigh everything and are truly rational and and have perfect understanding.
To be able to classify someone as "Good" or "Evil" you have to know everything about that person so that you can balance all his "Good" against all his "Bad".
You have to be able to not just say what "Good" is and what "Bad" is but be the authority to set the standards. You have to be "GOD"
So for all those that think they are "GOD"
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If you are constantly condemning everyone around you and classifying their behavior as "good" or "bad" and think that people must classify you and your behavior as "good".... I think that you are one of the most pitiful and sad person on earth. Just that you do not know it.
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This thread is to debate what the best practice for AA should be, this forum, when people come to ask for help.
Whether "helpers" should be allowed to "condemn" those seeking for help and to condemn those providing advice that they do not like.
To determine what is "condemning others" and what is "condemning certain actions".
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To allow the "condemning of others" and "condemning of certain actions" or to allow only the expressing of opinions.
Example:
"You are very bad because...." (Condemning people)
"This is very bad behavior because...." (Condemning people's behavior)
"I will not do this because... (Giving others their opinion)
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My opinion is that those that like to condemn people and other people's behavior should go to BAR and do it.... I want to see how long they can survive BAR
IS up to the TS to chose which path he or she wants to lead.
Is NOT us as the advisers who would or could forced them to do what we want, is them who will chose the path they want to go.
There is no such thing as the perfect path.
Every path has is pros and cons.
I have seen so many cases that after the TS chosen a path and come back here to complain is bad and decided to blame it on the advisers.
Sadly to say thats life if the TS has chosen the path please do not blame others, no one force you and there is no such thing as the good path. -
Frankly, I think perhaps you worry too much for about me.Originally posted by jojobeach:Andrew,
Frankly, I think perhaps you worry too much for other people.
Those people who condemn others, do you really think they care about ruining the relationship at all ?
They don't care.
Even if that person really got cursed and end up with a broken body parts. The person who condemn will not feel a pinch, because they don't care about the person they condemn.
Nobody makes condemnation a habit or hobby.
Because there is nothing to gain, other than rantings of anger.
Same as cussing, you cuss at someone, does it hurt them ? No. But maybe you feel better . That's all.
So Andrew, I know you probably has good intentions, but going the way with "because you are not GOD" makes you look like a Fanatic.
Nobody likes a Fanatic as much as a "condemn-er"
Some of those people who condemn others, do not realise that they are ruining their relationships, they care.
Even if that person really got cursed and end up with a broken body parts. The person who condemn will not feel a pinch, but their attitude will lead to them living life in an illusionary manner as if they are GOD and spoil their relationships with others.
Nobody makes condemnation a habit or hobby. Because there is nothing to gain, other than rantings of anger, but many of these people do not realise that they are doing it at the expense of good relationships with others.
Same as cussing, you cuss at someone, does it hurt them ? No. But maybe you feel better AND if condemning others is your way of life, you will spoil many of your relationships.
So jojobeach, I know you probably has good intentions, but going the way with hounding me trying to make a case for not condemning others makes you look like a Fanatic.
Nobody likes a Fanatic as much as a "condemn-er" -
This is so much more than giving advice in AA. If you live life with an attitude of condemning, condemning, condemning... you are unlikely to be able to solve problems effectively and you spoil many of your relationships with classmates, colleagues and family. Better to be objective rather than condemn condemn condemn....Originally posted by MiX Metal:Andrew,
I understand what you're trying to do, even if we may not agree with each others opinions most of the time. But its not going to possible for everyone to give advise your way. We are all different, thats what makes each and everyone of us unique.
And sometimes it may look like we're condemning the TS but it may not be the case as well. If you expect each and everyone to think and act like a "Super Human" like you. It is once again not possible as the readers here are from different age groups.
And not to mention most of us if not all of us are not counselors. Who's to say that the harsh way is negative and your way is positive ?
And you believe that the brain is so unreliable, so can I safely say that even your point may not be the correct way as well?
And if I'm not wrong you mention we should not enforce our way of thinking onto others ??
You are doing it now, forcing others to see things your way.
No offence, I could be wrong.
I am not forcing anyone even if I can force someone...
Of course my point may not be correct, that is why I do not simply say: You must not condemn people. Period.
I laid out my reasons and if you do not agree with me then you have to point out which reason you do not agree with...
Since you cannot and did not tell us which reasons you did not agree with, then even if you are right, it is pointless... nobody knows because nobody knows why you could be right or wrong.... -
no. u going har?Originally posted by M©+square:Allos!
I'll only be around around this time of the year.
You going to Sentosa today?
u are the 4th person who asked.
btw Andrew, i dun intend to chit chat in here hor, juz that.. really v long time no see ah square post. -
yalor.. why har?Originally posted by Yunhaier:Why?
Cheers
dun tell me u are going thailand to get a wife and settle down there hor. -
I think you've misunderstood me again. I'm not saying that condemning is right and I not saying its wrong.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:This is so much more than giving adixe in AA. If you live life with an attitude of condemning, condemning, condemning... you are unlikely to be able to solve problems effectively and you spoil many of your relationships with classmates, colleagues and family. Better to be objective rather than condemn condemn condemn....
Everyone has their own way of expressing how they feel after reading the threads. You can't expect everyone to be same. By saying that those readers are condemning the TS because you or any other one feels so after reading the replys and saying they are wrong to give such advise don't you think in the same time you are as well condemning these people and judging them as well ??
Human Beings are imperfect. There is no why to change it.
I don't think there is really a way to prevent harsh remarks ........ maybe we can try our best to restrain ourselves from calling names (eg. Bitch... on so on) -
A very good example of we are all different can be seen in this Thread.
We have a good amount of people agreeing and disagreeing with you. We can't say that those that agree with your views are right nor can we say that those that disagreed are wrong.
Guidelines can be set, but at the same time there will always be others that will disagree ........ What do you do then ?? -
Andrew,
Ok. I surrender.
You win.
Off to get my cold mug of beer for the day. -
Condemn:
to express an unfavourable or adverse judgement on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.
I indicate strong disapproval of what the third party is doing or is going to do - I'm condemning his actions.
Yet this strong disapproval (also condemnation) does not prevent me from giving him my advice.
It is sound advice, but it is also an advice with condemnation inside.
Some people NEED some scolding to "wake up their idea".
Take my previous example: That guy actually said that, "What don't steal other people's girlfriend? If you find so hard and finally find someone you love, you don't fight meh? That's called being a coward, not being a man!"
Well. I don't find it really wrong to condemn this guy to hell. Though I don't do it, but still.... -
I tot that was Kopi instead?Originally posted by browniebaobao:yalor.. why har?
dun tell me u are going thailand to get a wife and settle down there hor.
Cheers -
So what are you saying then?Originally posted by MiX Metal:I think you've misunderstood me again. I'm not saying that condemning is right and I not saying its wrong.
Yes some of them start to condemn othersOriginally posted by MiX Metal:Everyone has their own way of expressing how they feel after reading the threads.
I am not expecting everyone to be the same... I am just pointing out to people thatOriginally posted by MiX Metal:You can't expect everyone to be same.
1. The human brain is limited
2. The Information that is required to make a judgment is seldom adequate and accurate
3. The thought processes in Human Beings' heads are unreliable (including your own and my own)
4. To condemn people given 1,2,3 above is not very wise and will lead to strained relationships... and some people might not realise this and I hope that some people now recognises this fact and change, especially if they cannot understand why they seem to have bad relationships all round while other people seem to have good relationships all round. One of the big reasons could very well be that the are always condemning others.
Of course I am not, show me why and how...Originally posted by MiX Metal:By saying that those readers are condemning the TS because you or any other one feels so after reading the replys and saying they are wrong to give such advise don't you think in the same time you are as well condemning these people and judging them as well ??
and so let's stop all schools and educational systems... let's close down AA and every other sites or counseling centers... because like you say: "There is no why to change it."Originally posted by MiX Metal:Human Beings are imperfect. There is no why to change it.
If people continue to condemn others... that is their prerogative... hey, if they want to behave like they are GODS and they do not think that condemning people will spoil their relationships with others... and they do not treasure having good relationships with others... what can we do? We tell people and warn people but they insists on doing it ... so be it.Originally posted by MiX Metal:I don't think there is really a way to prevent harsh remarks ........ maybe we can try our best to restrain ourselves from calling names (eg. Bitch... on so on)
You do it, you suffer the consequences... life is fair. -
We all have automatic thoughts in our heads... and in this case, it is highly probable that in most people's heads the thoughts will be:Originally posted by binarynwitz:Take my previous example: That guy actually said that, "What don't steal other people's girlfriend? If you find so hard and finally find someone you love, you don't fight meh? That's called being a coward, not being a man!"
Well. I don't find it really wrong to condemn this guy to hell. Though I don't do it, but still....
"What a f.......g i.......t; haven't he heard of Karma? Hell-fire? Haven't he heard of Do unto others? Doesn't he consider how bad the guy will feel? Doesn't he consider how he will feel if someone does it to him?"
Yet our assumptions is that if he breaks up other people's relationship, the "other guy" will suffer (we can guess, we can never be sure)
We have also no way of knowing whether the breakup he caused will turn out to be a blessing in disguise for that guy. (we can guess, we can never be sure)
You might say... "Don't give me all that situational morality cr@p, wrong is wrong"
and he said: "No it is not wrong... it is fair competition...."
So is your "It is wrong" correct
or his "It is fair competition" correct?
You think you know.... you are so sure... especially before he came out with his : "It is fair competition"
To him he might even be doing the girl a favour!
So is trying to do the girl a favour wrong?
I don't know... you don't know... we don't know... we are not GOD!!!!!!
Don't condemn others. If you do... you will have very bad relationships all round.... -
You Really think so?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You are forgetting one thing (and that is most likely only one of many considerations that are out there) and that is, if you have a tolerant attitude, to the point that others smoking in a room does not get to you... if you have an attitude like that, it might speak of you living a non-stressful life.
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i think it would be good to have some guidelines on the way or the tone u express your point of views but not to restrict any views or judgements.....
i mean some ppl will post negative replies to the ts in a very harsh or "comdemning" tone...it's not wrong to have negative views but at least u can try to put forward your views in a less harsh tone....
i think it's better this way cos when ts post in aa it shows that ts is willing to listen to views from ppl but when u post your negative replies in such a harsh tone, some ts will naturally can't take the heat, ppl mostly with problems come to seek comforting words, when faced with such a harsh tone they might not be able to take it and will not want to listen to negative views and might even feel that no one understand his/her problems....
whether u post your views in a very harsh tone or a less harsh tone, it's still your own view but if u post it in a less harsh tone, ts might be more willing to listen and think over problems more thoroughly with more views from ppl.... -
I do not fully agree with you. Like you say, my positive might be your negative and at the same time your positive may be my negative. It dosen't mean that if I condemn someone's action or hehavouir means that I feel that I am GOD it simply means that I do not agree with it.
You say you are not expecting everyone to be the same, but after reading your replys against all those that disagree with you ...... I'm having doubt about what you say. (But I could be wrong again as u said our brains are unreliable)
If the thread starters are not able to accept all the different kinds views from the readers here which sometimes are abit too harsh I admit then I suggest they don't post here as I don't think there can be a 100% way of preventing it.
All I can say is that you are someone that believes strongly in your so call values of life, the proper way to behave. I respect you for that.