should she?
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I think someone should really get off his high horse and stop exaggerating the concept of abortion = murder. Life does not begin at conception.
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Originally posted by soleachip:
I think someone should really get off his high horse and stop exaggerating the concept of abortion = murder. Life does not begin at conception.
Quite true. Life dosen't begin with conceptions. But can you justify murder?
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The high priest contradicts himself
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
~crimsontactics has said that she deserved to be teased. I want to know, if someone really deserved to be teased just because all she's trying to do is to attempt hard to find a love she can rely on albeit in misguided way (no one in her family taught her how, but instead berate her for all her mistakes big and small and ignore her when she needs their presence), got misled by a guy who thinks more for himself than her welfare (even though he will be telling her he loves her etc things that she NEEDS so badly because her family has not been able to provide for her this emotional safety), because all along she has not been cherished, loved and looked after?~
First of all, I want to highlight that the social stigma which is connected to pre-marriage pregnancy had been in our society for generations. I'm sure that the couples, especially the lady, should be fully aware and prepared of the outcome of their actions.
Secondly, I'm sure that the lady, being 25, should be mature enough to differentiate between love and sex. You don't give sex to gain love, neither the other way around. Both of these two aspects are of a different calibre. They don't work together before marriage. So from your argument, are you telling me that just because she is foolish enough to give her body to her bf in exchange for attention, she is totally innocent? Shouldn't she be at fault too for the lack of sexual discipline? Isn't piaking before marriage considered cheap? And where are the protections? Ask these questions to yourself 1st. Misjudging is your own fault, so does being foolishly lured into doing something.
Thirdly, she even got the guts to consider abortion. What do you think she is? God? Having fun at the sake of another's life? This is Sg my friend. The government have been actively promoting married couples to have babies. I don't believe that she will not be able to bring up her child in this country, though it would be a tough struggle. Purposing abortion as a solution is hanging a "TEASE ME" sign around her neck. So shouldn't she be teased?
There is no free lunches in this world, everything have a price. Want to play, better pay.
Then who are you? God? Because you can just judge her as cheap simply because she has premarital sex?
It is not totally her fault that she became pregnant, cannot rule out that the guy is responsible too. Some girls find it hard to differentiate between love and sex, for us both of them are the same and she might believe that her bf thinks the same way as well. So shouldn't the guy be responsible as well for misleading her?
The government has been campaigning for MARRIED women to get pregnant, but unwedded mums are still very much looked down upon. So you can't use this to say since government is encouraging women to get pregnant and give birth, she should also do the same, irregardless of her situation. In my opinion, it is even more cruel to bring forth a child when you are not ready to do so, esp when you do not want him to begin with.
I know of people who are passionately against abortion when they were not pregnant, but the moment they did, the first thing they did was to book an abortion appointment with the nearest clinic.
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
Quite true. Life dosen't begin with conceptions. But can you justify murder?
You said life doesn't begin with conceptions. isn't murder about killing a life? If it isn't a life yet, can you say that a murder has occured?
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Originally posted by XxYaNxX:
It's not easy like that ... She should tell her parents.
she's 25? isn't she?if she needs to go for abortion and needs to tell her parent, then why in the 1st place when she dun need to tell her parent when she had sEx with him (unprotected?) ?
I'm neither supporting nor going against abortion.....
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There's a good reason why the legal age for abortion in Singapore is capped at 16. Exactly the same age for minors. Sex with minors is illegal.
It's not a question of support or against abortion now, we already know most of his entries here on this thread is completely biased and unjustified. The bigger issue is, crimsontactics said, because she had sex before marriage, therefore she is cheap and should be 'teased'.
That kind of mentality, if you ask me, is a little sick.
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Originally posted by soleachip:
There's a good reason why the legal age for abortion in Singapore is capped at 16. Exactly the same age for minors. Sex with minors is illegal.
It's not a question of support or against abortion now, we already know most of his entries here on this thread is completely biased and unjustified. The bigger issue is, crimsontactics said, because she had sex before marriage, therefore she is cheap and should be 'teased'.
That kind of mentality, if you ask me, is a little sick.
Yes, i agreed. By getting pregnant she is already suffering from the consequences of her action. So if she brings her child into the world, then ppl like him will still view her as cheap and ought to be teased. It is them who caused unwedded moms-to-be to think twice about carrying to full terms.
Kinda contradicts with what he suggested, no?
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Yep.
Ironically crimsontactics is a prime example of the social stigma he's worried about.
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
~crimsontactics has said that she deserved to be teased. I want to know, if someone really deserved to be teased just because all she's trying to do is to attempt hard to find a love she can rely on albeit in misguided way (no one in her family taught her how, but instead berate her for all her mistakes big and small and ignore her when she needs their presence), got misled by a guy who thinks more for himself than her welfare (even though he will be telling her he loves her etc things that she NEEDS so badly because her family has not been able to provide for her this emotional safety), because all along she has not been cherished, loved and looked after?~
First of all, I want to highlight that the social stigma which is connected to pre-marriage pregnancy had been in our society for generations. I'm sure that the couples, especially the lady, should be fully aware and prepared of the outcome of their actions.
Secondly, I'm sure that the lady, being 25, should be mature enough to differentiate between love and sex. You don't give sex to gain love, neither the other way around. Both of these two aspects are of a different calibre. They don't work together before marriage. So from your argument, are you telling me that just because she is foolish enough to give her body to her bf in exchange for attention, she is totally innocent? Shouldn't she be at fault too for the lack of sexual discipline? Isn't piaking before marriage considered cheap? And where are the protections? Ask these questions to yourself 1st. Misjudging is your own fault, so does being foolishly lured into doing something.
Thirdly, she even got the guts to consider abortion. What do you think she is? God? Having fun at the sake of another's life? This is Sg my friend. The government have been actively promoting married couples to have babies. I don't believe that she will not be able to bring up her child in this country, though it would be a tough struggle. Purposing abortion as a solution is hanging a "TEASE ME" sign around her neck. So shouldn't she be teased?
There is no free lunches in this world, everything have a price. Want to play, better pay.
Thank you for responding to my take on this matter crimsontactics
Like I said, I am a single mother myself. I have chosen not to abort my baby and am glad that I didn't because he has turned out to be such a wonderful bright child. That is not to say that things have been rosy. There is some long period of years whereby I couldn't connect with my child at all due to some subconscious resentment that I feel of him. I couldn't play with him, couldn't bear to talk to him, and even habour the thought of harming him. And whenever feelings of love start to well up within me for him, pangs of guilt would strike me as I did habour the thoughts of aborting him and that killed off pretty much any love I could have used to bond with him. It has taken me a long while to accept all of my feelings and to realize instead of denying my own feelings which caused me more grief, it is more helpful to acknowledge my pains and to work on them.
I have married the child's dad and have divorce him in the end. He was never responsible even though he actually SEEMS like a responsible, caring guy at first. How shall I put it, it is something like getting a person to try out a new flavour of coka cola when in reality it's actually a drug. You get unknowingly hooked in the end even though drug-taking is not your intention. To date, he never pays his maintenance and just going through divorce is hell for me enough. I could sue him for this of course, but factor in the paper work, agony and time, it's just plain not worth it. What about all the time he has painted in the young impressionable child's mind that you're the bad guy when in actual fact you've been doing all you could to keep the family afloat? What about him fighting for the child's custody when you know he's simply not equipped to support the child? You know you need to deal with living expenses as well as the well-being of your child, and to fend off this guy and his tactics. Nope, family's not been giving any support. I'd be thankful if there's no drama that'd cause me further grief or to deal with tantrums from my child due to such chaotic circumstances as well as that of my own.
As to the issue of age, the more I've come into contact with people, the more I realize that it's a subjective issue. Some young people can be very mature and some older ones can be very childish. What about family background and education and support from family and loved ones? What if you have very little of them all or worse, none? Let me give an example so that it is easier to picture. Everyone knows disability right? Example, someone who has lost a leg would find it very difficult to walk. That is clearly obvious to everyone as everyone can see that he has lost a leg. But what about emotional disability? What if this lady had not been emotionally equipped to handle what life has dished out to her? Emotional disability is something that is not easily visible to the eye. I'm not saying that she should not be accountable for her actions, but what I'm saying is that not everybody has the awareness of what is right and wrong straight away and perhaps it takes time and supportive friends to show her that. Just like there are still unfortunate children and people out there in poorer parts of the world and they don't choose to want to grow up there. Everybody needs a chance.
She thinks about abortion because there is such a thing as abortion in this world. The media has been talking about it, it's in the newspaper, magazine, radio and well, even here, we're talking about it. Who can don't even think about it? Picture a piece of yellow lemon in your mind. See yourself sinking your teeth into it, eating it and drinking all that sour lemon juice. Now stop thinking about how sour is that lemon, forget about the lemon now. Are we able to do it?
I believe, it is not her intention to want to abort a life or not. No girls go out with a guy with the picture of abortion in case if there is a baby. Maybe you could say it's a lack of maturity to think far, but I would rather put it as her current priority then is to seek love. It's like a kind stranger giving you food after you've been starved for 3 days while lost in a jungle during military training. When you are that hungry and thirsty, what are the chances that you would pause to debate whether the food is poisonous or not before eating and especially when the stranger looks like a kind, genteel and vulnerable old auntie?
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Originally posted by soleachip:
The high priest contradicts himself
And how did I?
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
First thing first, they have sex and had a baby, thats their fault, no one forced them to do it, they are both willing parties, so they got to pay for what price taht will be coming up.
Second,she will be, and deserved to be, teased. This is a no-brainer question. Actions have consequences. They wanna have fun, they have to pay the price. However, I'm sure she would be spared the shame and may even be respected if she stood up to the problem and struggle to bring her child up. By then, she will earn the respect of others. But now, to me, she is nothing but a cheap girl.
The guy, he might better off without a dick.
The point is clear-cut, play and pay, nothing else.
Things happen , that's life. No she does not deserve to be teased. -
Originally posted by rainee:
Then who are you? God? Because you can just judge her as cheap simply because she has premarital sex?
It is not totally her fault that she became pregnant, cannot rule out that the guy is responsible too. Some girls find it hard to differentiate between love and sex, for us both of them are the same and she might believe that her bf thinks the same way as well. So shouldn't the guy be responsible as well for misleading her?
The government has been campaigning for MARRIED women to get pregnant, but unwedded mums are still very much looked down upon. So you can't use this to say since government is encouraging women to get pregnant and give birth, she should also do the same, irregardless of her situation. In my opinion, it is even more cruel to bring forth a child when you are not ready to do so, esp when you do not want him to begin with.
I know of people who are passionately against abortion when they were not pregnant, but the moment they did, the first thing they did was to book an abortion appointment with the nearest clinic.
Those people are have a weak mentality and are easily swayed in the face of problem.
The government wants people to have more children IF they could afford it. Apparantly she seems to be financially unstable, thus i don't think she fall into this category. Unwedded moms are being looked down upon is due to our Asian culture and also due to the fact that many are so irresponsible to seek abortion as a way out.
Its not totally her fault. I agree with you. But is she fault-free? Shouldn't a lady of 25 have some form of sexual discipline, like I've mentioned earlier? Being misled shows that she is not mature enough to have a child, yet she had one and planned to have an abortion. Does this shows that she is totally innocent?
I'm not God. However, i judged her to be cheap because she had premarital sex which she can't afford to have, had a baby and planned to abort it. Thats why she is cheap.
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Who are you to judge her , are you perfect ?
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Originally posted by soleachip:
There's a good reason why the legal age for abortion in Singapore is capped at 16. Exactly the same age for minors. Sex with minors is illegal.
It's not a question of support or against abortion now, we already know most of his entries here on this thread is completely biased and unjustified. The bigger issue is, crimsontactics said, because she had sex before marriage, therefore she is cheap and should be 'teased'.
That kind of mentality, if you ask me, is a little sick.
I understand why you feel that way. Sorry if I have offended you in anyway. Its just that I'm strongly against abortion as I find that it is no different from murder. I'm also disgusted by the way the couple irresponsibly purposed abortion so easily. I wish for your understanding.
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Originally posted by rainee:
You said life doesn't begin with conceptions. isn't murder about killing a life? If it isn't a life yet, can you say that a murder has occured?
Having a baby in the tummy is already considered a life. So isn't ending its life considered murder? When using conceptions, fertilisation cannot take place, thus a life isn't form yet. And also using contraceptions doesn't harm the mother nor the dad.
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Originally posted by rainee:
Yes, i agreed. By getting pregnant she is already suffering from the consequences of her action. So if she brings her child into the world, then ppl like him will still view her as cheap and ought to be teased. It is them who caused unwedded moms-to-be to think twice about carrying to full terms.
Kinda contradicts with what he suggested, no?
If she bring him to the world and raise him/her up to be a decent people, I would give my total respect for her. The point that I call her cheap is because she had fun, had a baby, and planned to end its life just to solve her problems.
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Originally posted by XxYaNxX:
Who are you to judge her , are you perfect ?
I'm not perfect. No one is. But she is planning to kill a living being, of which should be giving the opportunity to life and strive. And the reason is to end her own personal problems created by her need for attention and pleasure. Thats why I had to make such veil comments of her.
If she were to brought her child up and raise him/her well. Like my earlier post I would give my full respect to her.
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Originally posted by soleachip:
Yep.
Ironically crimsontactics is a prime example of the social stigma he's worried about.
And why is it so? If mothers who choose to abort their children can be accepted in the society, I think those who oppose abortion shouldn't be considered a social stigma. People who oppose abortion, like me, are trying deny the rights to end lives, no matter how harsh we may sound. I don't think it this is doing anything wrong.
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abortion is the best choice to a pre-marital pregnancy, provided if the guy did not marry the girl. (even a short term marriage would do).
if the guy agrees to marry the girl, and give legitimacy to the birth of the child, it would be better for both the child and mother. they would not have to suffer from gossips e.g. "the child is born out of wedlock", " the mother is a loose woman" etc.
but in the above case, where, the guy refuses to marry the girl, the next best alternative is abortion, instead of adoption. yes, you may save a "soon-to-become-a-living-being" by not going for abortion, but do you want the child to be condemn to gossips about his or her backgrounds for the rest of his or her life?
the child will be scarred and branded before he/she even steps out into the world. our society isn't very forgiving towards this sort of pre-marital pregnancy, nor are we very tolerant of it, being an Asian country. Spare the child this cruelty.
also, it is also noted that children from single parent families do fare lower is life as compared to individuals from complete families. in addition, having a child with you also effectively lowers the girl's chances of remarrying and getting a new life. it would ruin her hope of having a happy family.
as for adoption, it is cruel for both the child and the mother. the child would most likely grow up hating his mother for giving him away, and on the other hand, the mother would most likely regret her choice of giving up her child. When you put up a child for adoption, you can't take him back even if you want to. do you want to suffer the angst of parting with your child, and living knowing that he may never get to know you, or worst still, hate you for giving him away?
and regarding the definition of life, how do you define life? does a clump of cells, the fertilise embryo, counts as life? note: embryo =/= foetus.
if some clumps of cells count as life, so do you call eggs and sperms "half-a-life"? so do all those wanking guys out there, are they killing millions of "lives" whenever they masturbate? or are women killing a potential life when they go thru menses every month? and with cloning technology, even your skin cells can be made into a clone of you. so do you classify your skin cells as separate "lives"?
clearly, life does not begin upon conceiving. and to clarify, i am against abortion after the first trimester.
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Originally posted by YouDonKnowMe:
Thank you for responding to my take on this matter crimsontactics
Like I said, I am a single mother myself. I have chosen not to abort my baby and am glad that I didn't because he has turned out to be such a wonderful bright child. That is not to say that things have been rosy. There is some long period of years whereby I couldn't connect with my child at all due to some subconscious resentment that I feel of him. I couldn't play with him, couldn't bear to talk to him, and even habour the thought of harming him. And whenever feelings of love start to well up within me for him, pangs of guilt would strike me as I did habour the thoughts of aborting him and that killed off pretty much any love I could have used to bond with him. It has taken me a long while to accept all of my feelings and to realize instead of denying my own feelings which caused me more grief, it is more helpful to acknowledge my pains and to work on them.
I have married the child's dad and have divorce him in the end. He was never responsible even though he actually SEEMS like a responsible, caring guy at first. How shall I put it, it is something like getting a person to try out a new flavour of coka cola when in reality it's actually a drug. You get unknowingly hooked in the end even though drug-taking is not your intention. To date, he never pays his maintenance and just going through divorce is hell for me enough. I could sue him for this of course, but factor in the paper work, agony and time, it's just plain not worth it. What about all the time he has painted in the young impressionable child's mind that you're the bad guy when in actual fact you've been doing all you could to keep the family afloat? What about him fighting for the child's custody when you know he's simply not equipped to support the child? You know you need to deal with living expenses as well as the well-being of your child, and to fend off this guy and his tactics. Nope, family's not been giving any support. I'd be thankful if there's no drama that'd cause me further grief or to deal with tantrums from my child due to such chaotic circumstances as well as that of my own.
As to the issue of age, the more I've come into contact with people, the more I realize that it's a subjective issue. Some young people can be very mature and some older ones can be very childish. What about family background and education and support from family and loved ones? What if you have very little of them all or worse, none? Let me give an example so that it is easier to picture. Everyone knows disability right? Example, someone who has lost a leg would find it very difficult to walk. That is clearly obvious to everyone as everyone can see that he has lost a leg. But what about emotional disability? What if this lady had not been emotionally equipped to handle what life has dished out to her? Emotional disability is something that is not easily visible to the eye. I'm not saying that she should not be accountable for her actions, but what I'm saying is that not everybody has the awareness of what is right and wrong straight away and perhaps it takes time and supportive friends to show her that. Just like there are still unfortunate children and people out there in poorer parts of the world and they don't choose to want to grow up there. Everybody needs a chance.
She thinks about abortion because there is such a thing as abortion in this world. The media has been talking about it, it's in the newspaper, magazine, radio and well, even here, we're talking about it. Who can don't even think about it? Picture a piece of yellow lemon in your mind. See yourself sinking your teeth into it, eating it and drinking all that sour lemon juice. Now stop thinking about how sour is that lemon, forget about the lemon now. Are we able to do it?
I believe, it is not her intention to want to abort a life or not. No girls go out with a guy with the picture of abortion in case if there is a baby. Maybe you could say it's a lack of maturity to think far, but I would rather put it as her current priority then is to seek love. It's like a kind stranger giving you food after you've been starved for 3 days while lost in a jungle during military training. When you are that hungry and thirsty, what are the chances that you would pause to debate whether the food is poisonous or not before eating and especially when the stranger looks like a kind, genteel and vulnerable old auntie?
I'm honoured to be able to chat with someone who had gone through pre-maritial pregnancy and chose not to abort. I can't judge things for you but to me, I'm sure you made a right choice and is living a life free from any guilt connecting to a child's death.
The media has its good and bad points, its all about the people watching them to have their own opinion. For my case, I oppose abortion unless its is for a medical condtion.
Your given example is rather interesting, however, what you showed is that the trouble surrounds only you. You can choose whatever way you want to solve it, even self-cannibalism. However, abortion is the subject between both mom and child. The mom may want to survive, but the child would want to live to right? This idea maybe too simple to be impressive, but i that you get the idea.
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Originally posted by deathmaster:
abortion is the best choice to a pre-marital pregnancy, provided if the guy did not marry the girl. (even a short term marriage would do).
if the guy agrees to marry the girl, and give legitimacy to the birth of the child, it would be better for both the child and mother. they would not have to suffer from gossips e.g. "the child is born out of wedlock", " the mother is a loose woman" etc.
but in the above case, where, the guy refuses to marry the girl, the next best alternative is abortion, instead of adoption. yes, you may save a "soon-to-become-a-living-being" by not going for abortion, but do you want the child to be condemn to gossips about his or her backgrounds for the rest of his or her life?
the child will be scarred and branded before he/she even steps out into the world. our society isn't very forgiving towards this sort of pre-marital pregnancy, nor are we very tolerant of it, being an Asian country. Spare the child this cruelty.
also, it is also noted that children from single parent families do fare lower is life as compared to individuals from complete families. in addition, having a child with you also effectively lowers the girl's chances of remarrying and getting a new life. it would ruin her hope of having a happy family.
as for adoption, it is cruel for both the child and the mother. the child would most likely grow up hating his mother for giving him away, and on the other hand, the mother would most likely regret her choice of giving up her child. When you put up a child for adoption, you can't take him back even if you want to. do you want to suffer the angst of parting with your child, and living knowing that he may never get to know you, or worst still, hate you for giving him away?
and regarding the definition of life, how do you define life? does a clump of cells, the fertilise embryo, counts as life? note: embryo =/= foetus.
if some clumps of cells count as life, so do you call eggs and sperms "half-a-life"? so do all those wanking guys out there, are they killing millions of "lives" whenever they masturbate? or are women killing a potential life when they go thru menses every month? and with cloning technology, even your skin cells can be made into a clone of you. so do you classify your skin cells as separate "lives"?
clearly, life does not begin upon conceiving. and to clarify, i am against abortion after the first trimester.
I think at the point where the woman is consious about her pregnancy, her baby would be more than a "lump of cells". Whats worst, living a life of shame or not living at all? Yes, its tough to live a life of shame, but you can work for and achieve respect. There are many adopted kids in the world who had been saved from the clutches of abortion and given the chance to life. They processed more fighting spirit and many are now successful people in their own field and contributing to the society.
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
I think at the point where the woman is consious about her pregnancy, her baby would be more than a "lump of cells". Whats worst, living a life of shame or not living at all? Yes, its tough to live a life of shame, but you can work for and achieve respect. There are many adopted kids in the world who had been saved from the clutches of abortion and given the chance to life. They processed more fighting spirit and many are now successful people in their own field and contributing to the society.
yes. but isn't it best to bring a child into the world with the best you could offer? why make the child suffer unnecessarily?being a young single mother, the child not only has to endure the shame of being a child born out of wedlock for the rest of his life, the mother most probably is also unable to provide financially for the child.
what more reasons to not go for abortion?
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Originally posted by soleachip:
The high priest contradicts himself
I think I get it now. That was silly of me. What I really meant was contraception.
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
Your given example is rather interesting, however, what you showed is that the trouble surrounds only you. You can choose whatever way you want to solve it, even self-cannibalism. However, abortion is the subject between both mom and child. The mom may want to survive, but the child would want to live to right? This idea maybe too simple to be impressive, but i that you get the idea.
Pardon me, I couldn't help asking. In the matter of life and death situation and your wife as well as your unborn child are in danger. Only one may survive. Would you:
1) Save the mother?
or
2) Save the unborn child?