LKY is not only in self-denial, but also not humble.
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Other democratic countries have fair voting systems in place.. they have regular checks and balances.. Their peasants don't make a decision on policy, but they can vote for, or against a policy without fear of a lawsuit coming their way.. thats what I call a true democracy state..Originally posted by dragg:tell me which democratic country let their citizens make decisions on policies? -
since when someone voted against a policy and faced a lawsuit?Originally posted by caramon:Other democratic countries have fair voting systems in place.. they have regular checks and balances.. Their peasants don't make a decision on policy, but they can vote for, or against a policy without fear of a lawsuit coming their way.. thats what I call a true democracy state.. -
Is that a question? Hint: Tang liang hong, JBJ and Dr Chee.. they are allOriginally posted by dragg:since when someone voted against a policy and faced a lawsuit?
against certain issue, and see what happens to them?? One can't come back
to singapore, one is made a bankrupt, and the other has an on-going lawsuit.. -
and these democratic countries are????? all you need to do is name ONE.Originally posted by caramon:Other democratic countries have fair voting systems in place.. they have regular checks and balances.. Their peasants don't make a decision on policy, but they can vote for, or against a policy without fear of a lawsuit coming their way.. thats what I call a true democracy state.. -
USA..Originally posted by Chin Eng:and these democratic countries are????? all you need to do is name ONE. -
you have gotten it all wrong!!!Originally posted by caramon:Is that a question? Hint: Tang liang hong, JBJ and Dr Chee.. they are all
against certain issue, and see what happens to them?? One can't come back
to singapore, one is made a bankrupt, and the other has an on-going lawsuit..
they faced defamatory lawsuits. i.e. saying things with proof. this has nothing to do with democracy!!! -
TLH, JBJ and CSJ was sued because of DEFAMATORY remarks, not because they are against policies. Whether the DEFAMATORY remarks were really DEFAMATORY is another matter.Originally posted by caramon:Is that a question? Hint: Tang liang hong, JBJ and Dr Chee.. they are all
against certain issue, and see what happens to them?? One can't come back
to singapore, one is made a bankrupt, and the other has an on-going lawsuit..
CST, and LKT had voted against PAP polices and NOT SUED....
Don't confuse the issues.... -
Think they voted on the Iraqi war??? Maybe on minor issues in small township, but never national policies.Originally posted by caramon:USA.. -
.... and maybe gun control, look at where it got them....Originally posted by caramon:USA..
Bowling for Columbine!!! so much for true democracy.... -
In democracy, every citizen has freedom of speech and assembly.. If they have a concern, they can voice it out.. In a dictatorship, they control the public media and silence your voices..
In a dictatorship, the circus parliament will ignore your problems.. In a dictatorship, the leaders get to keep their job even if they cannot deliver or perform poorly.. They will continue to get millions of salary even if economy declines..
This authoritarian system in SG must not remain any longer.. SG was a thriving port even before LKY became PM, and that was even after the British shipped the profits back to their queen.. SG is not 'from nothing' as most of the forumers here will like to believe.. it has everything back then..
Are you trying to tell us that SG was a forsaken desert when LKY took control?
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I agree with Caramon on some points, Singaporean politics is just the way it is. Liking LKY doesn't mean we have to prove he is perfect, nor should we ignore all the things that might seem negative to him. Anyways, with all the bad things, and all the good things, he is still one of my favourite politicians.
This topic seems to be more of a personal debate than proving anything at all. =X -
Hmm...
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Is there a clamping down of voice of concern? I don't see the garment closing down the FACTS (Families Against Casino Threats website)? Did MPs who disagree with the casino told NOT to talk about it? Did Straits Times not print letters of concern from people against casinos? The answer the above questions is NO! So there is a freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly? Unless there is a perceived threat to security, I don't think anyone has any fear to gather any where they want. Of course, then the question is what is a perceived threat of security...Originally posted by caramon:In democracy, every citizen has freedom of speech and assembly.. If they have a concern, they can voice it out.. In a dictatorship, they control the public media and silence your voices..
Is it YOUR problem (at a personal level) or the problem of the society (at a population level) you are talking about? Is Singapore like a typical African nation where the king spends millions of dollars on a fleet of cars and ignore the plight of it's impoverished citizens? Sure, you can be disgrunted, at one point or another, we are unhappy over one thing or another, but this does not prove that we are countering dictatorship.
In a dictatorship, the circus parliament will ignore your problems.. In a dictatorship, the leaders get to keep their job even if they cannot deliver or perform poorly.. They will continue to get millions of salary even if economy declines..
I don't think the authoritarian system is that strong anymore. I also do not think it will last forever. I can see the system opening up.
This authoritarian system in SG must not remain any longer.. SG was a thriving port even before LKY became PM, and that was even after the British shipped the profits back to their queen.. SG is not 'from nothing' as most of the forumers here will like to believe.. it has everything back then..
Are you trying to tell us that SG was a forsaken desert when LKY took control?
Singapore was a port, and probably thriving too, with pirates. One cannot take away the good things that were done to us by LKY. Was he authorative, yeah! But he had recently admitted that he had be wrong over a few things.
You can take a few quotations and twist the context to suit your argument but you cannot take away the things that happened and how LKY had performed during the trouble years. I don't think he started off to try to be popular, no leader should try to be popular. The purpose of leadership is to be EFFECTIVE. If a situation calls for a hardline approach so be it!
You have to see the bigger picture. Someone said this to me once, "When given a blank piece of paper, the mind can be paralyized to a point as it does not know what to do with it. The moment another person draws a stroke on it, anyone can and will attempt to modify and criticise that stroke to suit his own needs". -
I don't think that you should compare the President to the Prime Minister. Each post demands different qualities. The President have to be friendly and be accessible to all levels of society while the Prime Minister have to make tough, unpopular decisions. I would have to say though that SM Goh Chok Tong did better in balancing these 2 qualities.
As for democracy, well, our opposition sucked in the first place. Even in a more equitable election, I hope they lose cause they suck more than the PAP. Anyway, take a look at the US, the so-called advocate of democracy. There was so much controversy about the use of the voting machines. The debate was not so much about policies but about insulting each other's character. It's about who has the better image consultant. And the millions of dollars spent on campaigns. So only the rich can win? True democracy? Bah, it's a myth. That's why it's called politics. Realistic democracy is about who is better at playing the political game than who is better for the country. If the opposition can't even handle the PAP, what makes you think they can handle international politics with countries that are even more unreasonable? -
hey caramon can u jus shut ur mouth...
if want den come out and talk
dun hide behind the screen like a coward.
asswipe. -
did u study history or not ah.....based on these sentences and u are criticising MM LKY, show some respect to him can......where do you tink Singapore would e without his aura of "arrogance" during that time.....maybe in those days, it was needed badly and it was deemed appropriate then. Do go read some history be4 u comment on someone who has been there for Singapore.
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Is there a clamping down of voice of concern? I don't see the garment closing down the FACTS (Families Against Casino Threats website)? Did MPs who disagree with the casino told NOT to talk about it? Did Straits Times not print letters of concern from people against casinos? The answer the above questions is NO! So there is a freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly? Unless there is a perceived threat to security, I don't think anyone has any fear to gather any where they want. Of course, then the question is what is a perceived threat of security...
All that wayang shows is after all just a show.. so what if the majority are against casino? They just went on to build regardless of what opinion peasants hold.. Is that the freedom of speech that YOU are talking about?
JBJ apply for a simple demonstration against casino but was rejected.. Is there a perceive threat of security for that? If NOT, why is the application rejected?Is it YOUR problem (at a personal level) or the problem of the society (at a population level) you are talking about? Is Singapore like a typical African nation where the king spends millions of dollars on a fleet of cars and ignore the plight of it's impoverished citizens? Sure, you can be disgrunted, at one point or another, we are unhappy over one thing or another, but this does not prove that we are countering dictatorship.
Who is the CEO of singtel? who is the one who own temasek holdings? I believe we are the only democratic nation that have so much links between a political party and monopolistic giants.. If thats not dictatorship, what is??I don't think the authoritarian system is that strong anymore. I also do not think it will last forever. I can see the system opening up.
YES, people choose the ways they want to see things.. I rather see things for the present than the past.. what is right in the past may not be suitable for the present.. what despotic action LKY done in the past may not go well in the present.. we need changes..
Singapore was a port, and probably thriving too, with pirates. One cannot take away the good things that were done to us by LKY. Was he authorative, yeah! But he had recently admitted that he had be wrong over a few things. -
Corruption is NOT merely about the taking of undertable money alone.. A truly innovative but GREEDY politician can circumvent that easily by legimitising 'undertable corruption'(illegal) in more ways than one when absolutely power is gained ie a grossly overpaid income (legal)..
Being the highest paid politicians in the world that is NOT proportionate to the size of the country (be it geographically or demographically) governed or the GDP it produces in comparison to others in the world, I proclaimed PAP style is legalised corruption.. -
Its alright to pay millions if we get the results.. but..
Thu Apr 21, 1:26 PM ET Technology - AFP
SINGAPORE (AFP) - Hong Kong has overtaken Singapore as Asia's most electronically-savvy economy and is well ahead of Australia, South Korea and Japan, a global business survey showed.
The annual "e-readiness" rankings by the London-based Economist Intelligence Unit said Hong Kong was tied at sixth place with Finland behind the top five: Denmark, the United States, Sweden, Switzerland and Britain.
Hong Kong vaulted over Singapore, which fell to 11th place, "thanks to innovative development of e-business services, a positive legal and policy environment and advances in mobile services," an EIU statement said.
"For perhaps the first time since the technology bubble burst, the global economy is beginning to feel comfortable in a digital skin," it said. "Spending on information and communications technology (ICT) is growing again with some buoyancy in developed markets."
In the 2004 survey, Singapore stood at seventh place and Hong Kong at ninth. Denmark was the topnotcher in 2004 as well.
Scandinavian countries "remain the best in class in key areas of connectivity, such as mobile penetration and Internet use," the EIU said.
What is CEO of singtel doing??
StarHub launches high-speed broadband services for corporate clients
By Loh Kim Chin, Channel NewsAsia
SINGAPORE: StarHub has launched Singapore's fastest ADSL or Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line services for business customers.
The telco claims its services can provide SMEs and Internet-focused businesses with bandwidth of up to 6 megabits per second.
This is currently about twice as fast as its nearest rival.
That means corporate customers will get faster access to the internet for activities like general surfing, e-mails, video/net conferencing and streaming, virtual private network connectivity and e-commerce applications.
The new services are priced from S$1,500 per month. - CNA -
here's where one can make all kinds of claims without be able to substantiate any evidence. Unless you have prove, you are making slanderous remarks.Originally posted by caramon:Corruption is NOT merely about the taking of undertable money alone.. A truly innovative but GREEDY politician can circumvent that easily by legimitising 'undertable corruption'(illegal) in more ways than one when absolutely power is gained ie a grossly overpaid income (legal)..
Being the highest paid politicians in the world that is NOT proportionate to the size of the country (be it geographically or demographically) governed or the GDP it produces in comparison to others in the world, I proclaimed PAP style is legalised corruption..
You like to take it with the three morality minded citizens and their families that their FACTS website is a wayang show? I don't think they want to be thought of in that way. There is really no MAJORITY against casinos, just a group of concern citizens with a slight inclination towards this issues. My point is merely to state that a Singaporean can take sides and voice their construction opinions without fear of repercussion. You have been harping on the "great" US system. Don't you know that the entire decision making structure is laced with people from various pressure groups and lobbyist many of whom stand to gain financially if certain bills are passed. That's democracy to you?All that wayang shows is after all just a show.. so what if the majority are against casino? They just went on to build regardless of what opinion peasants hold.. Is that the freedom of speech that YOU are talking about?
JBJ apply for a simple demonstration against casino but was rejected.. Is there a perceive threat of security for that? If NOT, why is the application rejected?
You had rightly stated that JBJ wanted to organise a DEMONSTRATION. In itself, the concept of demonstration is WRONG. No one can control the emotions of demonstrations and history has proven time and again that such demonstration has the propensity to turn violent? Can you guarantee that demonstration is not done emotionally?
Well, people need to make a living. If LSY is a PSLE student and is the CEO of Singtel, I will take issue with that. If Ho Chink is an incapable woman with no business acumen, than perhaps that is more than meets the eye. As long as these people QUALIFY for the job, what's the problem. What do you hope to see from now on? Anyone from the Lee family NOT holding on to a job? Just to prove to the likes of you that there is no CRONYISM? What about their cousins and uncles and aunties, many of them are good working people? Perhaps the entire Lee family should remain jobless and not own businesses so that people will not accuse them of milking the country.Who is the CEO of singtel? who is the one who own temasek holdings? I believe we are the only democratic nation that have so much links between a political party and monopolistic giants.. If thats not dictatorship, what is??
As I had said, LKY had admitted in making mistakes. For the present he is honest enough to say publicly what he had done wrong. For a supposedly "arrogant" person, that is a big step, isn't it. However I don't see how despotic LKY was. Perhaps when you compare to the other true despots in the world, LKY is an angel.YES, people choose the ways they want to see things.. I rather see things for the present than the past.. what is right in the past may not be suitable for the present.. what despotic action LKY done in the past may not go well in the present.. we need changes..
You are becoming too emotional on your assessment on LKY, you would not give credit where credit is due. All you are concern is, is to harp on your dislike for one person. Should I then, by reading your post and state that you are a bigot? No I would not do that, because I would not go DOWN to your level. -
Originally posted by caramon:Its alright to pay millions if we get the results.. but.. etc etc
so what's your point? LKY succeeded in developing Singapore - he's a despot, and that the country was already a busy port.
LSY did not get the results, so it's his fault?
Let me see, Lee family succeed, they are not so great because there are other factors at play,
Lee family fails, it's their fault and we should not pay them so much????? -
here's where one can make all kinds of claims without be able to substantiate any evidence. Unless you have prove, you are making slanderous remarks.
Singapore's ministar is getting millions of dollars for their salary.. if thats not legalise corruption, what is? are you saying they are doing a very good job to command that kind of salary?You like to take it with the three morality minded citizens and their families that their FACTS website is a wayang show? I don't think they want to be thought of in that way. There is really no MAJORITY against casinos, just a group of concern citizens with a slight inclination towards this issues. My point is merely to state that a Singaporean can take sides and voice their construction opinions without fear of repercussion. You have been harping on the "great" US system. Don't you know that the entire decision making structure is laced with people from various pressure groups and lobbyist many of whom stand to gain financially if certain bills are passed. That's democracy to you?
What's the use of debating, when one's know that their opinion counts for nothing? will YOU take part in something which YOU have no say in it?? If thats not a wayang, what is??You had rightly stated that JBJ wanted to organise a DEMONSTRATION. In itself, the concept of demonstration is WRONG. No one can control the emotions of demonstrations and history has proven time and again that such demonstration has the propensity to turn violent? Can you guarantee that demonstration is not done emotionally?
People who are passion about something calls for a demonstration.. if no emotion are involved, whats the use of it? so tell me, what is good in a demonstration? a stroll in the park, aka a family outing huh..
I am not good in guessing.. violent or no violent is for you to guess and for us to know..Well, people need to make a living. If LSY is a PSLE student and is the CEO of Singtel, I will take issue with that. If Ho Chink is an incapable woman with no business acumen, than perhaps that is more than meets the eye. As long as these people QUALIFY for the job, what's the problem. What do you hope to see from now on? Anyone from the Lee family NOT holding on to a job? Just to prove to the likes of you that there is no CRONYISM? What about their cousins and uncles and aunties, many of them are good working people? Perhaps the entire Lee family should remain jobless and not own businesses so that people will not accuse them of milking the country
I will says thats too much of a coincidence.. name me another country thats having this situation? maybe suharto, but as you already know, what happened to him in the end.. dictatorship comes to no good end.. *starts praying*As I had said, LKY had admitted in making mistakes. For the present he is honest enough to say publicly what he had done wrong. For a supposedly "arrogant" person, that is a big step, isn't it. However I don't see how despotic LKY was. Perhaps when you compare to the other true despots in the world, LKY is an angel.
You like many other Singaporeans have only read govt sanctioned books and newspapers.. Why are there books about Singapore being banned in Singapore?
You are becoming too emotional on your assessment on LKY, you would not give credit where credit is due. All you are concern is, is to harp on your dislike for one person. Should I then, by reading your post and state that you are a bigot? No I would not do that, because I would not go DOWN to your level.
In a democracy, people can hold their govt accountable for their actions, but the moment you do that in singapore, you will be identify, arrest without a trial, make a bankrupt or worse, sent you to IMH for observation.. -
True, Singapore aint such a democratic country. There are many things that are banned, and im not talking about films.
But well, different leaders have different styles of leading, just like how different people have different personalities -
LKY and his fellow ministar is overpaid, "the good life have spoilt you and distorted your vision" You are really out of touch.. S'pore is the only country which pays millions to their leaders.. Name me a political leader outside of Singapore who even makes half of what LKY gets..
LKY would be the first to tell Singaporeans not to expect high wages for past contributions.. So what has LKY been doing other than writing his memoirs and suing his opponents, to justify a multi-million dollar salary? -
Getting lots of money as salary is a fact. Legalise corruption is an opinion. Two different things, but you are entitled to your opinion.Originally posted by caramon:Singapore's ministar is getting millions of dollars for their salary.. if thats not legalise corruption, what is? are you saying they are doing a very good job to command that kind of salary?
Well seems that lots of people have already voiced their opinion even though things did not get their way.... it is still not a wayang. Did you ever think that things will forever go in your way just because you said it? Did any senior members of your families said no to you? Was it a wayang too?Originally posted by caramon:What's the use of debating, when one's know that their opinion counts for nothing? will YOU take part in something which YOU have no say in it?? If thats not a wayang, what is??
The purpose of not granting the right for demonstration is so that it will not serve as a precedence for demonstration to take place. So you think that by tearing down buildings and overturning cars is a good solution?Originally posted by caramon:People who are passion about something calls for a demonstration.. if no emotion are involved, whats the use of it? so tell me, what is good in a demonstration? a stroll in the park, aka a family outing huh..
I am not good in guessing.. violent or no violent is for you to guess and for us to know..
Coincidence....? you know, in a way, I empatize with the Lees. Even if one of them works in 7-11, someone will accuse them of cronyism. So maybe their exam scores were also kelonged. Have you been to Indonesia? If Singapore's corruption is the way you describe... I'll take my chances here.Originally posted by caramon:I will says thats too much of a coincidence.. name me another country thats having this situation? maybe suharto, but as you already know, what happened to him in the end.. dictatorship comes to no good end.. *starts praying*
No lah... I can always go across the causeway and make these "illegal" purchases.... some of these books are written by obviously anti-LKY people. Of course I agree that the banning is a little paranoia, but I don't think we are so sheltered, after all, hasn't the government been encouraging us to go overseas. I do that, go overseas, I mean, regularly..... and I can tell you first hand that some of these comments and "opinions" are really ridiculous.Originally posted by caramon:You like many other Singaporeans have only read govt sanctioned books and newspapers.. Why are there books about Singapore being banned in Singapore?
Eh?? why are you still out here so free. Not in IMH??? Last I heard, impeaching a US president is also quite difficult.... When's the last time someone wants to hold the Singapore government accountable and got identified, arrested made bankrupt etc. Those that got these treatment made statements that they CANNOT prove or found to be FALSE.Originally posted by caramon:In a democracy, people can hold their govt accountable for their actions, but the moment you do that in singapore, you will be identify, arrest without a trial, make a bankrupt or worse, sent you to IMH for observation..