Australia treating Nguyen like a martyr
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Ugh, reading these forums really shows the horrible side of Singaporeans. No compassion, joking about death. Makes me sick to the stomach and damned ashamed to be called a Singaporean.
People are not pissed off about the hanging so much as being dulan about the lack of compassion that this horrible speck in the ocean has.
I tell you, someday all this will come back and bite Singapore. What makes it even worse is the fact that I spent 2.5 yrs serving the regime that funds Burmese drug lords. And here the politicians are, trying to be all high and mighty while stuffing their coffers with drug money. Sickening! -
Compassion is a misunderstood word.Originally posted by Weirdo80:Ugh, reading these forums really shows the horrible side of Singaporeans. No compassion, joking about death. Makes me sick to the stomach and damned ashamed to be called a Singaporean.
People are not pissed off about the hanging so much as being dulan about the lack of compassion that this horrible speck in the ocean has.
I tell you, someday all this will come back and bite Singapore. What makes it even worse is the fact that I spent 2.5 yrs serving the regime that funds Burmese drug lords. And here the politicians are, trying to be all high and mighty while stuffing their coffers with drug money. Sickening!
What is compassion? Convert the sentence to prison term? The law was made first, to change it is to make a mockery of our judicial system.
Compassion should have started at home - NYT's home. He has decided to put his family in this predicament.
I am sure we feel for his mother, and especially his twin brother who is the cause of NYT's situation, but that does not and cannot change the law.
Burmese drug money? Allegations made by Burmese oppositions? or our favourite opposition "leader"? -
The following paragraph references "Jean Tan", who was the First Secretary of the Singapore embassy in Washington D.C. This
The Singapore government's response again confirms the fact that the
government, through the GIC and the Myanmar Fund, was doing business
with legendary drug trafficker Lo Hsing Han of Burma. Indeed, the rush
in August to shut down the Myanmar Fund--only one aspect of a
complicated web of investments with Lo and Burma's
narco-dictatorship--is a clear indication that something is very wrong.
(As we noted in our article, Lo and his company Asia World are under
investigation by narcotics officials in several countries.)
Beyond this, Jean Tan's specific criticisms do not address the
substance of our article. Nowhere did we say that the GIC?s use of
Morgan Guaranty Trust Co. as a custodian was "sinister or secret." The
newsworthy point is that a major U.S. financial institution had
business ties to a known heroin dealer.
Furthermore, Tan's assertion that the GIC was merely a "passive
investor" is belied by the fund?s own documents, one of which says that
the GIC is a "core shareholder" and as such has a representative on the
investment committee of the fund. "The committee will determine whether
investment proposals are viable and whether they should be approved for
investment by the Fund" says the 1994 document. (As manager of the
GIC since 1991, Eddie Taw Cheng Kong was the GIC representative on the
fund investment committee until very recently. Taw was sentenced in
May to nine years in jail and a $2.4 million fine for accepting bribes
from companies whose shares were purchased by the GIC.)
Tan's statement on Dr. Chee Soon Juan's refusal to set up a commission
is misleading. Dr. Chee was not a member of Parliament and thus would
have been excluded from the commission. His colleagues in Parliament
were afraid of lawsuits and other repercussions. Dr. Chee had already
been the target of a government defamation law suit and was forced to
sell his house and borrow heavily to avoid bankruptcy. Amnesty
International says that Singapore's leaders are systematically
?resorting to defamation suits as a politically-motivated tactic to
silence critical views and curb opposition activity."
Chee still had the courage to speak out, but his questions (in a
letter to the Prime Minister and The Straits Times) remain unanswered
by the ruling elite: Is Lo Hsing Han allowed to move freely in and out
of Singapore, for example? Has the government investigated the
background of Lo's son Steven Law, who has been denied a U.S. visa on
suspicion of drug trafficking? Will the government state clearly that
Burma?s junta is not helping or turning a blind eye to drugtrafficking?
Although the Myanmar Fund is now undergoing liquidation, these
investments represented only a small part of Singapore's total
investment in Burma. The US government has reported that more than half
of Singapore's $1 billion-plus investment in Burma is tied to Lo Hsing
Han and his family.
Dennis Bernstein and Leslie Kean (they are Americans, not Australians) -
Is Lo Hsing Han allowed to move freely in and out of Singapore, for example?
Unless Lo Hsing Han is an escape convict or a wanted criminal in his country of origin there is no reason to prevent him from entering Singapore. If he did what he did out of Singapore, what can immigration do?
Has the government investigated the background of Lo's son Steven Law, who has been denied a U.S. visa on suspicion of drug trafficking?
The fact that Steven Law was denied a US visa is immaterial. Do we act according to US's judgement, and if we do, what is the world's view on us?
Will the government state clearly that Burma's junta is not helping or turning a blind eye to drugtrafficking?
I believe enough was stated by the Singapore government, whether others believe or accept or not is not the issue.
As far as I can tell, this particular story stems from a very narrow scope of reporting. A search for this story in the Internet, seems to state the the original source was the same. Example: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/BurmaSingapore_Drugs.html
Also Chee Soon Juan has shown to be a person with very little credibility. Outward the image of an oppressed opposition seem to work wonders with foreign politicians, but in reality, we all know what kind of person he really is. It would be good if the accusations come from Low Khia Thiang or Chiam See Tong. -
There is never smoke without fire.The truth is that, even Lo Hsing Han aside, the government has very close ties to the junta even to the extent of miltary sales, and this to a dictatorial regime that uses oppression on its citizens, is highly suspect.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Is Lo Hsing Han allowed to move freely in and out of Singapore, for example?
Unless Lo Hsing Han is an escape convict or a wanted criminal in his country of origin there is no reason to prevent him from entering Singapore. If he did what he did out of Singapore, what can immigration do?
Has the government investigated the background of Lo's son Steven Law, who has been denied a U.S. visa on suspicion of drug trafficking?
The fact that Steven Law was denied a US visa is immaterial. Do we act according to US's judgement, and if we do, what is the world's view on us?
Will the government state clearly that Burma's junta is not helping or turning a blind eye to drugtrafficking?
I believe enough was stated by the Singapore government, whether others believe or accept or not is not the issue.
As far as I can tell, this particular story stems from a very narrow scope of reporting. A search for this story in the Internet, seems to state the the original source was the same. Example: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/BurmaSingapore_Drugs.html
Also Chee Soon Juan has shown to be a person with very little credibility. Outward the image of an oppressed opposition seem to work wonders with foreign politicians, but in reality, we all know what kind of person he really is. It would be good if the accusations come from Low Khia Thiang or Chiam See Tong. -
In a way, this statement is not far from the truth. I do not believe that there is ONE government in the world that is totally untainted some way or other. On the same tone, I believe each individual is a hypocrite one time or other.Originally posted by LazerLordz:There is never smoke without fire.The truth is that, even Lo Hsing Han aside, the government has very close ties to the junta even to the extent of miltary sales, and this to a dictatorial regime that uses oppression on its citizens, is highly suspect.
The issue at hand is: the rationale for the tough drug law is for drugs LANDING on our borders, in which case NYT is guilty of doing. The law, as well as the punishment, is clear to him and anyone else reaching here.
The moment the argument shifts to issues like compassion, those who did not sin..., second chance, mother issue, alleged Burmese connection, then there is really no end lah. That being the case, no need law lor!
The murky issue with Burma may have to do with ASEAN trade agreement. Arms sales? Like all businesses, we sell to whoever want to pay. On the same note, when we buy weapons, Malaysia also kowpeh.
We are probably NOT the only country dealing with Burma. If I want to nitpick, I'd say that Malaysia is also involved because Kuok Singapore (not sure of the actual name) owns by Robert Kuok who is a Malaysian (I believe).
It is enough to say that the reports quoted were very old, unless something newer and more solid comes around, there is very little purpose in harping on old allegations. -
You have a point.I'm only outlining the fact that the Burmese connections stretches way beyond the current ASEAN FTA spirit.It stretches back to the beginning of the 1970s, with Israeli involvement in the selfsame military and surveillance equipment support from them.Originally posted by Chin Eng:In a way, this statement is not far from the truth. I do not believe that there is ONE government in the world that is totally untainted some way or other. On the same tone, I believe each individual is a hypocrite one time or other.
The issue at hand is: the rationale for the tough drug law is for drugs LANDING on our borders, in which case NYT is guilty of doing. The law, as well as the punishment, is clear to him and anyone else reaching here.
The moment the argument shifts to issues like compassion, those who did not sin..., second chance, mother issue, alleged Burmese connection, then there is really no end lah. That being the case, no need law lor!
The murky issue with Burma may have to do with ASEAN trade agreement. Arms sales? Like all businesses, we sell to whoever want to pay. On the same note, when we buy weapons, Malaysia also kowpeh.
We are probably NOT the only country dealing with Burma. If I want to nitpick, I'd say that Malaysia is also involved because Kuok Singapore (not sure of the actual name) owns by Robert Kuok who is a Malaysian (I believe).
It is enough to say that the reports quoted were very old, unless something newer and more solid comes around, there is very little purpose in harping on old allegations.
It's all business,I'm sure.But it's still highly suspect.
Think from another point of view, some factions always benefit when issues are forgotten or hushed up.
I see Singapore being more pro-active on the Burma issue, and that is a good step forward.No point letting that nation drag ASEAN down.Someone has to stand up at one point and let them know that fact. -
Well said, Laz...Originally posted by LazerLordz:You have a point.I'm only outlining the fact that the Burmese connections stretches way beyond the current ASEAN FTA spirit.It stretches back to the beginning of the 1970s, with Israeli involvement in the selfsame military and surveillance equipment support from them.
It's all business,I'm sure.But it's still highly suspect.
Think from another point of view, some factions always benefit when issues are forgotten or hushed up.
I see Singapore being more pro-active on the Burma issue, and that is a good step forward.No point letting that nation drag ASEAN down.Someone has to stand up at one point and let them know that fact.
I am just unhappy that when folks try to prove a point, all they can dig up is something that was written way back in 1998. It would be helpful is there are more substantial data to support such allegations. -
It is enough to say that the reports quoted were very old, unless something newer and more solid comes around, there is very little purpose in harping on old allegations.
Well, I think Singapore can expect some very serious scrutiny for quite a while.
And not before time. -
may i ask something?
what about the view of mandatory 25 to life in some US states for the "three strikes" law?
you could get done for shoplifting and get 25 to life -
Well, laugh it up, guys. You just justified the use of the word "barbaric".
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dude.. you're over there, we're here...
he was here too...
bleeding hearts aside, what pissed me off is all the australian press..
it's as if he deserves special treatment because he's australian
barbaric or not, again, it's not the call of the australians.. others think it's barbaric to eat grubs.. but we're not going into that either
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Bear, I'm in SG at the moment.Originally posted by the Bear:dude.. you're over there, we're here...
he was here too...
bleeding hearts aside, what pissed me off is all the australian press..
it's as if he deserves special treatment because he's australian
barbaric or not, again, it's not the call of the australians.. others think it's barbaric to eat grubs.. but we're not going into that either
I'm not talking about what was done to Nguyen. The law's the law and the Singapore government would be remiss if it were not to uphold it.
What justifies the use of "barbarians" is Singaporeans having a laugh at this situation. Even when it comes to enemies, no civilised society pisses on anybody's grave. -
ahh.. that bit.. yah..
but capital punishment.. is the law of the land...
heck... it's tough.. but that's what the crime is too...
too many people forget what he did... and look upon him, elevating him as some kinda hero...
i mean, hey... they tolled the bells in melbourne for him? someone who, if we had missed, could have walked into melbourne with a pile of dope...
again, i ask.. what have the australians done about the "burmese drug lords" other than support them by buying the drugs? -
Let us face it.
Facts
1) Nguyen is a criminal. This is a fact.
2) Nguyen is dead. This is a fact.
Things to debate on
A) Death penalty on drug trafficking - Debatable
B) Mandatory punishment - Debatable
Do not go over the line by saying Nguyen did this, that, whatever so, now that he is dead. At least that respect must be given. Whatever he did, whether the jurisdication system was fair or unfair, Nguyen is dead. Respect the dead.
The debate should go on now the application of the laws. Enough had been said about Nguyen. -
Well, Bear, my call on the bells tolling is that the guy got baptised, and it was signalling his passing. Why read any more than that into it?
As for the drugs passing into Australia, Singaporeans have been saying that Australia has no place interfering with Singaporean laws. That being the case, what say do Singaporeans have about drugs passing into Australia, even if the situation is a god-awful mess over there?
As Nel's said, it's over. Let's discuss the real issues at hand. -
Well.. its to those whinners out there who keeps on bombaring the justice system of SG. I for one agree in the death penalty and as a deterrent. Drugs make ppl become f*ked up.. I personally love drugs but , but if u are caught with it.. u got no one to blame but urself.Originally posted by Croaking_Toad:Is that supposed to be funny???
It's sad to see a young life put to an end. It's also sad to see why he did it in the first place.
But knowing very well the consequences of his actions, is not forgivable. I do not understand why the Australians can't see why the death sentence was imposed for drug offenses. For them, maybe a wrecked family is a normal thing.
Countries such as Singapore imposed the mandatory death sentence mainly as a deterent. However, some idiots still try their luck. Never, did we proclaim that the population here is drug-free. But certainly it's much better than in countries where drug related problems are viewed with a closed eye.
Would be interesting to see what the layperson of Australia thinks of the death sentence for drug offences. Would also be interesting to know their feelings if someone in their family was involved in drugs. How would they handle such situation? -
why should i do humanity a lesson and be bound by ur rules and principles ? i am not bound by ur moral values. U dun like my so called humour then maybe he shouldnt post at chit-chat for me to poke fun at. If u dun like it.. why not u do me a favour and shut up.Originally posted by fudgester:What a disgusting piece of so-called humour. I am highly revolted by this piece of crap which you posted.
Poking fun at the execution of a person is not a joke, regardless of the fact that Nguyen is a drug trafficker. You may feel safe and empowered saying all this while hiding behind that computer screen of yours.... well, try telling that to Nguyen's loved ones in the face.
Bet you don't have the gonads to do that. So please do humanity a favour and shut up.
you can think all u wnt about me being all empowerd hiding behind the screen.. i am just like u. another person behind a computer screen. but frankly.. i am not u. People die.. so what ? i dun see u crying for the somalians. -
SpecOps, that was in VERY poor taste. Considering three out of the four men have finished their sentences and are trying to get on with their lives, your bringing up the issue when discussing something entirely unrelated is just not acceptable.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Mebbe we can ask the 4 CDOs involved in the drowning incident to drown Ngyuen instead. Since they like to drown people, ask them try lor.If they succeed at one attempt,grant them early release.haha,just kidding. -
read the article about his hanging. damn sad for his family.
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oh well....
Life has to go on....
UNSW, here i come
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I disagree. Death sentence is indeed a deterence to me.Originally posted by wallabyBob:I think the main problem most Australians have with this case is that the sentence is mandatory. It's hard to understand why that would be the case if Singapore truly wants to stop drug trafficking. Nguyen helped the police and pleaded guilty, and risked the safety of his family in doing so. But he was killed anyway.
Why would any future defendants ever do this?
Killing this kid will do precisely nothing to curb the flow of drugs through Changi airport, but dealing with him and future traffickers might at least go some way to getting to source of this evil drug. -
Make a mistake, pay for it.Originally posted by wallabyBob:As for this...
Well I just hope you never make a stupid mistake Simon.
That is the way. -
Are you from the opposition party? Well, passing off remarks without the facts/evidences to back your statement just gave you the eligibility to join their ranks.Originally posted by Weirdo80:Ugh, reading these forums really shows the horrible side of Singaporeans. No compassion, joking about death. Makes me sick to the stomach and damned ashamed to be called a Singaporean.
People are not pissed off about the hanging so much as being dulan about the lack of compassion that this horrible speck in the ocean has.
I tell you, someday all this will come back and bite Singapore. What makes it even worse is the fact that I spent 2.5 yrs serving the regime that funds Burmese drug lords. And here the politicians are, trying to be all high and mighty while stuffing their coffers with drug money. Sickening!
Well done
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Singapore Hangs Smuggler
By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: December 2, 2005
SINGAPORE, Friday, Dec. 2 - As a small group of protesters stood silently outside the prison in the early light, the authorities here on Friday hanged a 25-year-old Australian man convicted of trying to smuggle heroin through Singapore.
Singapore rejected pleas for clemency from the Australian government and threats of an anti-Singapore boycott by opponents of the death penalty there.
Officials at Changi prison were scheduled to execute the man, Nguyen Tuong Van, at precisely 6 a.m. The Home Affairs Ministry confirmed in an e-mailed statement that the execution had been carried out, The Associated Press reported.
Mr. Nguyen was arrested in 2002 with 14 ounces of heroin at Singapore's Changi airport on his way from Cambodia to Australia. He was convicted of drug trafficking and sentenced to death last year.
If the US denies a man visa cos he is suspected of drug smuggling, then I think he is somehow tied in.
It is not a matter of, "Should we do as US does." It is a matter, "Do you want to credit some trust in one of the most powerful and well funded intelligence agency on this planet." and perhaps carry out further investigation.