Because of 2 captured soldiers...
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i just hope no one is biased to either side when you post
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Oh so you want to talk about International Laws... terrific. So, under which law were Palestine and the arabs allowed to attack Israel cause they were not satisfied by Britain's arrangement?Originally posted by MobyDog:Fair and Rightfully their.. for compensation ?? Under which law ?
How many Settlements were evicted...??? Those less elaborate and non-strategics once I suppose.. So how many were evicted .. not many ? Good for cameras right. ?? So.. how to account for the additional 40 more built ??
And under which International Law is Hezbollah existing under? There was a UN resolution calling for Hezbollah to be disbanded, was it adhere to?
And under which law, secular or religious, are people allowed to strap bombs to themself and blow everyone sky high?
As for the settlements, please cite the source of your image please. I can start my own "news site" and draw my own picture but none of us are on the ground, seeing with our own eyes what is happening. Besides, if the Palestines continue launching rockets even after the return of Gaza, they have it coming. -
I'm partial towards Israel in my replies. Why? Because they act as a counterbalance Mobydog's skewed facts and kneejerk accusations against Israel.Originally posted by dark_snowboy:i just hope no one is biased to either side when you post
If this was an article I'm writing, I would objectively highlight the plight of both sides. It is true that ordinary citizens of Lebanon and Palestine are suffering as a result of this prolong campaign, but isn't the Israelis as well? But so far I'm only responding to Mobydog and correcting his misinformation. -
Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:
not arguing about the long past
Oh so you want to talk about International Laws... terrific. So, under which law were Palestine and the arabs allowed to attack Israel cause they were not satisfied by Britain's arrangement?And under which International Law is Hezbollah existing under? There was a UN resolution calling for Hezbollah to be disbanded, was it adhere to?
Hezbollah is a recognised Terrorist org... what are you talking about. Why are the Israeli's targeting civilian infrastrauctures, petrol stations, chicken farms and milk factories and residential areas anyway.. killing mostly civilians... wearing a uniform doesn't gives a right to commit terrorism (By the very same definition)And under which law, secular or religious, are people allowed to strap bombs to themself and blow everyone sky high?
As I say what else can they do ???As for the settlements, please cite the source of your image please. I can start my own "news site" and draw my own picture but none of us are on the ground, seeing with our own eyes what is happening. Besides, if the Palestines continue launching rockets even after the return of Gaza, they have it coming.
The map was obtained from the Applied Institute of Jerusalem.. anyway .. just google and you will have aleast 3 page full. -
I might have made a mistake on the ATtimes article... but honestly - You are definately partial to Israel.Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:I'm partial towards Israel in my replies. Why? Because they act as a counterbalance Mobydog's skewed facts and kneejerk accusations against Israel.
If this was an article I'm writing, I would objectively highlight the plight of both sides. It is true that ordinary citizens of Lebanon and Palestine are suffering as a result of this prolong campaign, but isn't the Israelis as well? But so far I'm only responding to Mobydog and correcting his misinformation. -
Look at the situation.
Do you really think Israel would bow to international pressure if forced? the choice to give up the Gaza settlements was made by Israel and the Knesset alone.
And it was a painful choice. Past and present Israeli PMs have tried their hand at peace. Shimon Peres was vilified by the hawkish right-wingers and mocked by the Palestinians as inadequate; Ariel Sharon was labelled 'pretentious' when he made the call to evacuate the Gaza strip based on his past record as a murderous General.
On the other hand, what committment have the Palestinians provided? NONE. No end to violence, no end to homicide bombings and hey...throw in more intifadas; HAMAS may have been their popular choice; just look at their poor governance now...the Palestinians are suffering even more than when Mamoud Abbad was in-charge.
And the people themselves are mad if their intent is to vote a terrorist organisation into parliament. HAMAS's refusal to acknowledge the state of Israel is jeopardising the route the peace.
Let's be clear: Israel started out as nothing but their people worked hard and fought hard to be SOMETHING. They turned their tiny refuge into a home, complete with a defence force to be feared and respected. And they did it through struggle and war. Faced with a situation that forced their backs against a brick wall, their only option to survive was to fight. It's like a boxing match, except its a 1 versus everybody, and the last man standing wins.
For those of you who scorn Israel as the playground bully, read their history, read about the men of their time, brave men like Yitzak Rabin together with Yasser Arafat, about the peace that could have been, signed at Oslo, that elusive goal that has prevailed over 1000 years in the holy land.
Discover the holocaust, the formation of the state of Israel post WWII, the creation of the state of Palestine, the incredible Entebbe Raid, the six-day war, Yom Kippur and the twin intifadas.
Only then, do you pass judgement.
And see if you come to the same conclusion as you did before. -
the land that the israelis are now on belongs to the palestinians!!! he robbed them of their land and now give them back a small piece. so are the palestinians supposed to say thank you?Originally posted by Uncle_MooMoo:The Israelis were even more poorly armed when people started attacking them with the intention of wiping them off the map.
When Britain split the colony on that stretch of land now known as "Israel and Palestine", the Palestinians could have lived happily but no... they decide that it wasn't enough and together with the arabs attacked Israel.
Many wars later, Israel has accumulated large blocs of land belonging to its aggressors, and to be fair rightfully theirs. If someone attacked you with the intention of annihilation, I'd think holding onto their territory is the least of compensation.
But Israel, under international pressure has already returned the Gaza strip to Palestine. Last October(I think, or December), many Israelis had to be forcefully evicted from their homes. I don't see you mentioning that? Why are you giving a skewed account on the plights of Palestinians only?
After returning those land at the expense of their own citizens, was Israel given a breather? Were the Palestinians satisfied? NO! They continued launching rockets into Israeli territories terrorizing ordinary citizens. Israel avoided any large scale counter-attack even though it's their right to defend themself! -
If Hamas and Hezbollah give up their dogmatic idiocy, the future and dignity of the Palestinian people would be more assured. It is their blood on their hands.
Israel may have over-extended herself, but this is a war against an act of aggression instigated by a recognised terrorist organisation.I already consider this response quite mild, with no strike on either Syria or Iran.
Collateral damage is a reality that we cannot put kid gloves on, it is sad, regrettable, but unavoidable.
Interdiction, personally, is a legal action that hinders the enemy's usage of asymmetrical doctrine in leveraging on CIVILIAN assets and the Western notions of FAIR GAME to enhance their militancy. -
I'm aware of the Israel history.. more than you think. Just don't base it on Religious grounds.Originally posted by BillyBong:Look at the situation.
Do you really think Israel would bow to international pressure if forced? the choice to give up the Gaza settlements was made by Israel and the Knesset alone.
And it was a painful choice. Past and present Israeli PMs have tried their hand at peace. Shimon Peres was vilified by the hawkish right-wingers and mocked by the Palestinians as inadequate; Ariel Sharon was labelled 'pretentious' when he made the call to evacuate the Gaza strip based on his past record as a murderous General.
On the other hand, what committment have the Palestinians provided? NONE. No end to violence, no end to homicide bombings and hey...throw in more intifadas; HAMAS may have been their popular choice; just look at their poor governance now...the Palestinians are suffering even more than when Mamoud Abbad was in-charge.
And the people themselves are mad if their intent is to vote a terrorist organisation into parliament. HAMAS's refusal to acknowledge the state of Israel is jeopardising the route the peace.
Let's be clear: Israel started out as nothing but their people worked hard and fought hard to be SOMETHING. They turned their tiny refuge into a home, complete with a defence force to be feared and respected. And they did it through struggle and war. Faced with a situation that forced their backs against a brick wall, their only option to survive was to fight. It's like a boxing match, except its a 1 versus everybody, and the last man standing wins.
For those of you who scorn Israel as the playground bully, read their history, read about the men of their time, brave men like Yitzak Rabin together with Yasser Arafat, about the peace that could have been, signed at Oslo, that elusive goal that has prevailed over 1000 years in the holy land.
Discover the holocaust, the formation of the state of Israel post WWII, the creation of the state of Palestine, the incredible Entebbe Raid, the six-day war, Yom Kippur and the twin intifadas.
Only then, do you pass judgement.
And see if you come to the same conclusion as you did before.
On the "HAMAS's refusal to acknowledge the state of Israel is jeopardising the route the peace." Look at the Settlement Maps, even I don't really knows where exactly is the Gaza border, it is everywhere and keeps moving around. If you connect each settlement with roads that the Palestinian can't use. There is infact no more Gaza to speak of.
On the matter, on peace. I believe during the truce, Israel did not keep theirs, they con't to kidnap and knock off Hamas and palestinian leaders. When they retaliate, see what the news says.. Palestinians started it.
Hell.. logging off.. have to watch the "LOST" series. -
Yes, if you read what you quote, I already said I'm partial towards Israel. All of it is factual and can be independantly verified. Why am I only speaking for Israel? Because you're already doing the rest lol.
Anyway, the way you quote my post, it's very difficult for me to reply in context.
True, losing loved ones does strange things to people. But if you pardon their acts because of that, then you ought to be fair and objective and do the same to the Israelis, isn't it?
Are you saying only Palestinians/Lebanese have parents? Do victims of suicide bombings not have parents? Aren't the soldier kidnapped sons of someone? What about ordinary Israelis who lived through rocket attacks through their daily lives even though Israel has already evicted the Gaza settlements?
Yes there is a humanitarian side to this conflict, and I feel for the innocent on both sides, but like what Israel's ambassador to UN said, if Israel successfully disarms Hezbollah, eventually it'd be ordinary Lebanon that benefits.
When I bring up a Palestine/Arab example to acts you condemn, you conveniently say it's long past. What's passed doesn't mean it didn't happen. Besides, the militant groups of today calling on the "Annihilation of the Jewish State" was as a result of these decade old conflicts.
If you're really concern about the plight of ordinary Palestiness, then you should be hoping for the disarment of these militants. They kill innocent Israelis(also flesh and blood) and bring about repercussions on their own people. Everytime there's a glim of hope for peaceful negotiations, these groups stir up trouble. -
Bingo.
Fighting Hezbollah and Hamas is like fighting ghosts.
They hide their stockpile of munitions and explosives among the populance, commit acts of aggression and then bait Israel to come at them.
It's a game of dare: dare Israel to attack them in their civilian hideouts and risk civilian casualties and international condemnation?
Well, they're calling their bluff. Collateral damage is regretable, but if Israel is to be blamed, so is Hezbollah and Hamas. Deliberately stockpiling in civilians is as cowardly as using innocents as human shields, whether the people are willing or not. This in turn deserves a punitive response.
Which is why Israel designed targeted assassinations against Hamas leaders, which spooked them totally, despite their claims to the contrary. Isolated hits, maximum damage and morale sapping to terrorists cells.
Basically declaring: no hiding place is safe.
Anti-terrorism is a game where the aggressor does not play fair , does not play by the rules. But when forced on the defensive, he cries foul and plays the sympathy card.
Does he truly deserve any? -
Can u blame Israel? I mean, when the country first started out, the neighbours were so hostile towards it that they waged war after war at the country, but repeatedly were pushed back, and even lost land.
Sure, the Israelis can just sit back, and demand the 2 captured soldiers to be returned, but u must see who their captors are. And when their captors are sworn enemies of the country, can u just sit back and do nothing? And Hizabollah had to add to the fuel by capturing some Israeli soldiers too.
Right now, the world wants to talk. but talk is cheap. Look at North Korea/South Kora/US. Look at Taiwan/China. Look at Israel/Palestine/Rest of Arab world. If talking can do any good, all these issues would have been resolved long ago. Yet it didn't. In the end, arms and weapons and wars will have to settle issues.
I am not advocating wars. But reality is, sometimes, action speaks louder than words. The UN is supposedly there to act as meditor between conflicts. But has it done its job at ALL? -
If you really believe that Israelis defied the peace accords, then you SHOULD log off.Originally posted by MobyDog:On the matter, on peace. I believe during the truce, Israel did not keep theirs, they con't to kidnap and knock off Hamas and palestinian leaders. When they retaliate, see what the news says.. Palestinians started it.
Hell.. logging off.. have to watch the "LOST" series.
What nonsense are you sprouting? Israelis kidnapping Hamas and Palestinian leaders?
Name some of these so-called 'kidnapped leaders' if you so claim. Your reputation for warping facts into fiction already precedes you. -
Read this article.. there are plenty more.. but searching for them in too many outlet is beyond me... but this article is not from the usually so-called "BIAS".Originally posted by BillyBong:If you really believe that Israelis defied the peace accords, then you SHOULD log off.
What nonsense are you sprouting? Israelis kidnapping Hamas and Palestinian leaders?
Name some of these so-called 'kidnapped leaders' if you so claim. Your reputation for warping facts into fiction already precedes you.
You should breathe more international APs.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767
Also another good read is from this article from Israel
Who started?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/736009.html
Oh... the name of the assassinated lastest leader - Abd Al-Aziz al-Rantisi on 22 April 2006.
http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/israel_Jossi_0404.html -
according to e bible ,e land rightfully belongs to e jewsOriginally posted by dragg:the land that the israelis are now on belongs to the palestinians!!! he robbed them of their land and now give them back a small piece. so are the palestinians supposed to say thank you?
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The bible even says that Jerusalem was taken by the Israelites from its native inhabitants(Cannanite or now called Palestinian). Recorded to be wiped out.Originally posted by Chelzea:according to e bible ,e land rightfully belongs to e jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan
In a way, this is one of the first records of genocide in history comes from the bible, the perps being "gods chosen people"
Historically, the Biblical record is contradicted by older Egyptian records. At present, the best available data from archaeology and ancient records is that it was probably built by the "Canaanites". So who truly had the original lands of Jerusalem ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
But if you go far enough.. everywhere belongs to dinosaurus.
If you into more mordern history - Who won the latest war ..
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Israelis caught using chemical weapons on Lebanon.
July 20, 2006 -- WMR reported that the Israeli military was using poison gas on villages in south Lebanon. According to a former U.S. weapons expert who served in Iraq, the artillery shell in a photo taken in Lebanon (below) is a chemical weapon delivery device. It is being handled by an Israeli Defense Force soldier and Hebrew lettering can be clearly seen on the armored vehicle. Another chemical weapons shell of the same type can be seen lying on the ground to the right. It is not known what type of chemical is in the chemical canister, however, gas dropped by the Israelis in villages in southern Lebanon has resulted in severe vomiting among the civilian population.
Media commentators have scoffed that Israel, with its relatively unique history, would ever use chemical weapons or poison gas in any war. It is precisely because of that perception that they are using such weapons. The deniability factor prevents the media from taking seriously the credible reports of banned weapons being used by the Israelis
Israel using chemical delivery weapons in Lebanon. Fuse and chemical canister can be clearly seen in photo of Israel Defense Force personnel in Lebanon. Drawing of chemical weapon is from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons
http://waynemadsenreport.com/ -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
wow
[b]Israelis caught using chemical weapons on Lebanon.
Israel using chemical delivery weapons in Lebanon. Fuse and chemical canister can be clearly seen in photo of Israel Defense Force personnel in Lebanon. Drawing of chemical weapon is from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons
http://waynemadsenreport.com/[/b]
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So now are you suggesting you mistook 'kidnap' for 'assassinate'?Originally posted by MobyDog:Oh... the name of the assassinated lastest leader - Abd Al-Aziz al-Rantisi on 22 April 2006.
http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/israel_Jossi_0404.html
You still haven't named any leaders Israel 'kidnapped' and held for ransom or prisoner exchange.
How now brown cow?
As for assassination, i may not agree with such targeted killings, but the time for waging a fair battle is past. Killing such terrorist leaders in this manner is perhaps the surest way to minimise civilian casualties and collateral damage, and hitting the heart of terrorist morale. And incidently, targeted shoots take out ringleaders and not henchmen, prime candidates responsible for organising mass homicide bombings and kidnaps such as this. -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
I am doubly surprised that Al-Jazeera has not trumped up any such charges against Israel and prompted Hezbollah to do likewise? Nor are there any remote reports of biological agents used over the past 10 days.
[b]Israelis caught using chemical weapons on Lebanon.
Israel using chemical delivery weapons in Lebanon. Fuse and chemical canister can be clearly seen in photo of Israel Defense Force personnel in Lebanon. Drawing of chemical weapon is from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons
http://waynemadsenreport.com/[/b]
Which again lays the suspicion on the authenticity of the article. Wild speculation or theoretical conjecture?
Btw, Wayne Madsen happens to be investigate journalist and columnist. Sound familiar? And he has a strange habit of knocking the bush administration. For publicity stunts and greater viewership? Nothing more than a conspiracy theorist spinning of his own set of stories.
Here's one of his fictional tales:
Wayne Madsen's Vote Fraud Tale Spin -
We all seem so adament on the "by right" of things, trying to say what shoud Israel do and why is it understandable that the terrorists are allowed to kill women and children. Let's look at things conversely shall we?
Two of your soldiers are kidnapped by a terrorist group whose sole purpose in life is your absolute annilation. Not for you to shift away to another continent where you can launch another attack, not disbanded where you can form terrorist cells of your own, but your utter and absolute annilation, ie, your mother, father, friends, wife etc have to DIE. Not shift away.
What should you do in response to them? Give them money in return for your soldiers? So everytime a terrorist needs money, let's capture a few Israelis!
Should the Israelis do prisoner exchange? Next time your friend is arrested, never mind his sentence, let's just kidnap Israelis! No longer should we respect any Israeli laws!
Should Israel seek UN and political channels to get their soldiers back? Has the terrorists ever respected any UN resolution that does not benefit them? When the UN tells Israel and the US to give more leeway to them, the terrorists keep on trumpeting the UN's words. When the UN tells the terrorists to disarm or to support their own muslim governments, they totally ignore the UN. Do you think for one moment the terrorists will bend over backwards just because an infidel, christian/western UN told them to?
So for those supporters of the terrorist cause, please answer this question: WHAT SHOULD ISRAEL DO? -
So the defence of Israel should not be based on religious grounds but the destruction of Israel should be? The evil jews who took my lands? The devils who killed my prophets are sitting on my HOLY land?Originally posted by MobyDog:I'm aware of the Israel history.. more than you think. Just don't base it on Religious grounds.On the matter, on peace. I believe during the truce, Israel did not keep theirs, they con't to kidnap and knock off Hamas and palestinian leaders. When they retaliate, see what the news says.. Palestinians started it.
I guess the palestinians are keeping the peace. Of course its ok for them to kill Israeli civillians because they were forced. They are allowed to commit murder because they are poorer than the Israelis. They were forced to kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers because Israel did not pull out of gaza amidst strong opposition at home.
And Israel had no right to protect themselves by having a strong army and building a wall. Israel should sit around and let people kidnap their soldiers. After all, its not as though their military morale will drop when the soldiers realise that their country doesn't care enough about them and simply can't be bothered to rescue them. -
Read my post correctly, I wrote 'Kidnap and Assassination', not 'kidnap' as "Assissination'. What I meant was either/or.Originally posted by BillyBong:So now are you suggesting you mistook 'kidnap' for 'assassinate'?You still haven't named any leaders Israel 'kidnapped' and held for ransom or prisoner exchange
You blame lazy .. lah
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/03/1019441435343.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4806714.stm
And don't play word Semantics.How now brown cow?
Ehhh ???As for assassination, i may not agree with such targeted killings, but the time for waging a fair battle is past. Killing such terrorist leaders in this manner is perhaps the surest way to minimise civilian casualties and collateral damage, and hitting the heart of terrorist morale. And incidently, targeted shoots take out ringleaders and not henchmen, prime candidates responsible for organising mass homicide bombings and kidnaps such as this.
They do it to activist, militants and henchman all the same. You don't generally read it in the news , doesn't mean they didn't do it. Read more APs. -
So what's the Thing that those Israeli's soldiers are holding ???Originally posted by BillyBong:I am doubly surprised that Al-Jazeera has not trumped up any such charges against Israel and prompted Hezbollah to do likewise? Nor are there any remote reports of biological agents used over the past 10 days.
Which again lays the suspicion on the authenticity of the article. Wild speculation or theoretical conjecture?
Btw, Wayne Madsen happens to be investigate journalist and columnist. Sound familiar? And he has a strange habit of knocking the bush administration. For publicity stunts and greater viewership? Nothing more than a conspiracy theorist spinning of his own set of stories.
Here's one of his fictional tales:
Wayne Madsen's Vote Fraud Tale Spin
As for Electronic voting fraud.. he is not the only author commenting on it. Research on this issue more thoroughly yourself.. there are many similar articles out there.. But I'm not interested.. -
So the defence of Israel should not be based on religious grounds but the destruction of Israel should be? The evil jews who took my lands? The devils who killed my prophets are sitting on my HOLY land?
I think you're talking about Jerusalem.. Look at the map of 1948. Both Palestinian and Israeli should have a part of it.. but not now. We are generally talking about Gaza and West Bank. Are there no IDF bases in them ?Originally posted by SilverPal:
Actually both are faulted just the same. It is a fact that Israel kills more Civilians.
I guess the palestinians are keeping the peace. Of course its ok for them to kill Israeli civillians because they were forced. They are allowed to commit murder because they are poorer than the Israelis. They were forced to kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers because Israel did not pull out of gaza amidst strong opposition at home.And Israel had no right to protect themselves by having a strong army and building a wall. Israel should sit around and let people kidnap their soldiers. After all, its not as though their military morale will drop when the soldiers realise that their country doesn't care enough about them and simply can't be bothered to rescue them.
Yes, Israel has the right to defense themselves, so do others. And at the same time they are occupying someones else lands and dotting their landscape with settlements inter-linked with road networks that the palestinian are not allowed to use. To cross the roads, they have to go thru check points. Their walls cuts thru palestinian arable lands in GAZA .
On your earlier post, Does the present map the same as withe the map of 1948 ? Does inhabitants of occupied lands have the right to resist, under Internationa law ? Though targeting Civilians are wrong, doesn't that apply to the IDF as well ? ... which is a legtimate ARMY after all.