Singapore to hang Nigerian trafficker, rejects new appeal.
-
Touche Mon Ami...
-
All the philosophical arguments about what is barbaric and what is not. You forget the rights of Victims.
If you want to talk human rights, think of it this way . You have a right to all those human rights if you respect the rights of other human beings. Once you have committed a trangression in the eyes of law that protects the right of others and yourself even , you forfeit that right.
Why are we talking about protecting the rights of criminals when their victims have those same rights taken away? Drug traffickers and users made their choice but that choice impede on the rights of families of the drug addicts and other victims who were transgressed upon when the drug user commited a crime against them to feed the habit.
You basically have a choice and decision to make for the better good of all . You can either choose to be a law abiding citizen or you could chose to be a criminal. If you chose the criminal way, you pay the penalty.
The fundamental premise behind human rights is the right of choice aka FREEDOM. Those criminals were given a choice. They chose the criminal pathway. They are responsible for their acts . They have to pay the price of that choice which ended up in a criminal act. Drug traffickers are not victims of circumstances when they hang for their crime - because THEY MADE THEIR CHOICE to VIOLATE the laws WHICH PROTECT LAW ABIDING TAXPAYING INDIVIDUALS' RIGHTS to a safe and healthy society
Don't tell me how barbaric it is until you know or seen people crying over young one who made the choice and got lost to drugs. I seen young druggies overdose and go on life support as vegetables for the remainder of the years while their families try to come into terms. Even so teenagers are naturally curious about the world - anything cool they want. These are the youths which we try our best to protect from the evils of drugs.
I have personally seen a case whereby a young person thought she would try just 1 pill - she reacted badly and ended up as a living vegetable. Her parents were all too upset . A teenage daughter they so carefully brought up , destroyed in just a matter of a few minutes because she JUST wanted to try something cool for ONCE.
SO DON'T BLOODY TALK TO ME ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE CRIMINAL, BASED ON YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS MORALS ,- TELL ME WHERE ARE THE RIGHTS FOR THE VICTIMS? WANT TO TALK? THINK OF THE VICTIMS FIRST BEFORE OPENING YOUR MOUTH. Amnesty International only yabbers like a retard when it comes to human rights to the criminals. So are they saying criminals should have MORE rights THAN LAW ABIDING CRIMINALS?
The death penalty is a deterrent NOT a purposely planned herding for people to practice hanging on . It is meant to deter people from carrying drugs into Singapore and destroying lives of human beings especially our youth who might not be wise enough to make their own choices . It is a form of protection a country affords its taxpayers against drugs and its social impact.
Those who got hanged over it - THEY MADE THE CHOICE TO RISK DEATH OUT OF GREED. -
Cut the BS about comparing knives and drugs. Illicit drugs are a crime in itself. A knife is what you need to use in life to cut your meat , your fruits and your bread. It's like comparing an apple falling out of a tree and accidentally hitting someone compared to a durian thrown out of a HDB flat to kill someone ( illicit druglords and traffickers)Originally posted by walesa:Now, on to the moral perspective - drug trafficking, while widely used for pernicious purposes, basically causes harm only to those who make a conscious choice to consume them (for whatever reasons be they to escape from reality or succumbing to peer pressure). To suggest drug lords and traffickers are guilty of their victim's predicament is thus no more viable a suggestion as suggesting a knife manufacturer should be implicated should someone commit murder using the manufacturer's knife (surely, this scenario cannot be an accident!) - that, in essence, is where I'm coming from which you've obviously failed to comprehend. And no, my stance isn't fact and hence needs no consensus or approval from anyone - it's just an opinion which ranks right up there as sensibly, if not more so, as yours.
The illicit drug market is focused on malicious use.
Drug lords and traffickers know that growing and trafficking the substance itself are ILLEGAL. They intend to profit from A CRIME. They do not give a damn about telling people about the side effects. They have no ethics. A person they target is usually the young people and usually teenagers or minors as we call them. Teenagers are their best market because teenagers have the mindset of invincibility and would willingly take up anything that LOOKS COOL or FEELS COOL. Once addicted , that addiction will likely follow them through life and increase the sales for the druglords and traffickers. The law seeks to protect all citizens and their children from such dangers and reduce these malicious people from influencing the younger generations.
These markets are focused on lawful use.
Knife manufacturers ( if we are talking brand names like wiltshire) manufacture knives for the purpose of daily and necessary use. They did not intend to profit from murder or crime. Their sole intent is to earn their profits through law abiding citizens who use it legally.
Even dagger/sword manufacturers and gun manufacturers sell only through licensed dealers because of the need for registration under the law. That is to do a traceback if a crime has been committed. Even all the pharmaceutical companies and vaccine companies have batch numbers to do a traceback on severe reactions.
Want to talk moral? So tell me where are the BLOODY rights for victims ? Not the druggies but their families and people whom they hurt in order to get to the drugs? How about young people like teenage minors who didn't know better but tried once and got a major reaction from it rendering them vegetables for the rest of their life?
Don't talk to me about sparing drug traffickers or druglords' lives. They are criminals - THEY KNOW Singapore HANGS DRUG TRAFFICKERS if they have OVER A CERTAIN AMOUNT - THEY CHOSE TO COME INTO SINGAPORE - THEY GET CAUGHT , THEY HANG . That is HOW it plays out. -
So those of you so vehemently against drug traffickers hanging....
Go think about it . Would you rather have them entering your country , influencing your child and creating addicts out of them?
Have you known of any teenager who overdosed or got a bad reaction that they became vegetables? Have you seen any?
In Australia , I seen a few and I had mothers crying on my shoulders when their child is pronounced a vegetable or dead. I have seen a heroin drug addict who had to undergo brain surgery - he was screaming in pain and then faint from it because no legit amount of morphine could quell his pain. I volunteered at a shelter for former homeless drug addicts trying to make good of their life and pick up the pieces. They are no saints and they know it . They feel very sorry for their families, the friends they lost and all the hurt they caused them during those trying years. I spoken to some families who tell me of all the things they done.
No. I do not feel a shred of sympathy for hung or about to be hang drug traffickers. They are not the victims of Singapore. Society,community and families are the true victims of drugs. -
But according to Julian Mahon, more Australians are adverse to capital punishment ever since his client was hanged.Originally posted by fymk:Actually there is another lot of Australians who thank Singapore for carrying out the permanent solution. I know most of my australian colleagues supported the hanging. -
How about community service?Originally posted by Ignatiaus:If you say no to Executions
Then what alternative can you offer? Just saying "NO TO HANGINGS" isn't helping at all.
You have to come up with a viable alternative or else this will remain the norm
I, However even though find hangings to be a necessary evil.
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock
Basically
No Drugs = No Hangings... Duh?
Let Robocop tell you something about drugs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWpOas4qr7E
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqtY88BUi0M -
A rattlesnake has its weak points. It can be blown to bits with a grenade.Originally posted by fymk:While everyone is yapping about how good/cruel the death penalty is, did anyone consider the fact that before you even fly into Singaporean airspace , the warning to hang over drugs is broadcast over the airline system? Basically that guy could have ditch his drugs in the toilet system and just get jail for a less than minimal amount of drugs .
He had a choice, people . He made a choice to risk smuggling drugs and therefore risking his own life. Why should Singapore make a concession for the choice he made? The death penalty is meant as a deterrent . Obviously this guy didn't heed the deterrent and that is his fault. Alternative he could have took was to traffick drugs over countries without a death penalty.
It is almost like seeing a rattlesnake (Singapore) which can kill him (nigerian drug trafficker) , hear it rattle a loud warning ( i.e. airplane broadcast system about death penalty for drug smugglers) and then ignore the warning and get bitten to death (i.e. HUNG) . Tell me whose fault is it? Rattlesnake or the person who chose to tempt fate?
-
Originally posted by Ignatiaus:
you are completely missing my point. Have you worked with people with low IQ/poor social skills? Can you explain to me, where selling drugs might be rampant in their countries, how these uneducated people know that selling drugs is wrong in singapore and you can die for that and they will surely know that just cos they have a brain?
You don't get into the drug business without knowing that there are risks to be taken. Even if you are poor, you still have a brain.
Apart from a deterrence, i see it as sending a message to would-be traffickers.
So that covers the ignorance part for them.
After all the high profile hangings, I know future drug runners will think twice about coming here. So there again sending a message to the drug lords that we here in Singapore don't f**k around when it comes to drugs.
let me highlight an example. My uncle once has a request to escort a nigerian caught in Malaysia after trying to SWIM there all the way from Nigeria. On the plane trip to johannsburg, after swallowing money my uncle and some other people gave him so he will not be caught, he mentioned that he wanted to swim to singapore since he thinks singapore is a very nice country to be in. My uncle told him his lucky he was caught before he even reaches singapore because they cane illegal immigrants here. The nigerian expressed shock and said he was glad he didn't
swim here. He also mentioned of the high crime rate in Johannsburg and mentioned once if you kill someone over there and you are found guilty and ssentenced to death, after a few months you will see them walking outside on the streets. You think they know they will be happy if they know they won't be hanged in Singapore? they probably don't even know how singapore looks like!
Thailand could cancel an invitation and civil aviation cooperation talks becos of thaksin visiting singapore. What makes you think other countries might not do otherwise? with that reasoning you have, do you think we might as well abolish NS and lets not be silly since singapore has no resources and therefore no one will invade singapore?
fymk, no one says criminals should have more rights and others, nor tough laws are not necessary. But is it really to execute them and is capital punishment an effective deterrent? i mentioned that with some points in my previous post. No need to go into name calling and call AI retards when you hardly know them as an organization. What about those victims of sabotage and those who did not have a fair trial? what if they really turn out to be innocent? unlike those drug addicted users, nothing can save them once they died. What abt their lives? if Australia really start acting tough, i am sure they could solve the problem abt drugs in their country, just as i heard of rampant racism over there. I dunno if the police there are doing a good job but i am sure you does. So you think we should execute cigarette manufacturers and sellers as well?[/quote] -
Is Thaksin Shinawatra such a hated figure that he cannot even travel around without raising a stink? Anyone heard of the phrase "personal visit"?Originally posted by circleofwinter:you are completely missing my point. Have you worked with people with low IQ/poor social skills? Can you explain to me, where selling drugs might be rampant in their countries, how these uneducated people know that selling drugs is wrong in singapore and you can die for that and they will surely know that just cos they have a brain? let me highlight an example. My uncle once has a request to escort a nigerian caught in Malaysia after trying to SWIM there all the way from Nigeria. On the plane trip to johannsburg, after swallowing money my uncle and some other people gave him so he will not be caught, he mentioned that he wanted to swim to singapore since he thinks singapore is a very nice country to be in. My uncle told him his lucky he was caught before he even reaches singapore because they cane illegal immigrants here. The nigerian expressed shock and said he was glad he didn't
swim here. He also mentioned of the high crime rate in Johannsburg and mentioned once if you kill someone over there and you are found guilty and ssentenced to death, after a few months you will see them walking outside on the streets. You think they know they will be happy if they know they won't be hanged in Singapore? they probably don't even know how singapore looks like!
Thailand could cancel an invitation and civil aviation cooperation talks becos of thaksin visiting singapore. What makes you think other countries might not do otherwise? with that reasoning you have, do you think we might as well abolish NS and lets not be silly since singapore has no resources and therefore no one will invade singapore?
fymk, no one says criminals should have more rights and others, nor tough laws are not necessary. But is it really to execute them and is capital punishment an effective deterrent? i mentioned that with some points in my previous post. No need to go into name calling and call AI retards when you hardly know them as an organization. What about those victims of sabotage and those who did not have a fair trial? what if they really turn out to be innocent? unlike those drug addicted users, nothing can save them once they died. What abt their lives? if Australia really start acting tough, i am sure they could solve the problem abt drugs in their country, just as i heard of rampant racism over there. I dunno if the police there are doing a good job but i am sure you does. So you think we should execute cigarette manufacturers and sellers as well?
Speaking of fair trials, Took Leng How may not even have had one.
-
Well some people are sensitive. But to be fair to the thais, they did warn Singapore about it. When it involves a political figure and with the stuff happening around thailand, "personal visits" should be treated with more cautionOriginally posted by iveco:Is Thaksin Shinawatra such a hated figure that he cannot even travel around without raising a stink? Anyone heard of the phrase "personal visit"?
Speaking of fair trials, Took Leng How may not even have had one. -
I hate to say it but in the case of such people. The people you can really blame is their own Govt for being so corrupt and f**ked up. You can't blame ours for having a judicial system that actually works.Originally posted by circleofwinter:you are completely missing my point. Have you worked with people with low IQ/poor social skills? Can you explain to me, where selling drugs might be rampant in their countries, how these uneducated people know that selling drugs is wrong in singapore and you can die for that and they will surely know that just cos they have a brain? Confused let me highlight an example. My uncle once has a request to escort a nigerian caught in Malaysia after trying to SWIM there all the way from Nigeria. On the plane trip to johannsburg, after swallowing money my uncle and some other people gave him so he will not be caught, he mentioned that he wanted to swim to singapore since he thinks singapore is a very nice country to be in. My uncle told him his lucky he was caught before he even reaches singapore because they cane illegal immigrants here. The nigerian expressed shock and said he was glad he didn't
swim here. He also mentioned of the high crime rate in Johannsburg and mentioned once if you kill someone over there and you are found guilty and ssentenced to death, after a few months you will see them walking outside on the streets. You think they know they will be happy if they know they won't be hanged in Singapore? they probably don't even know how singapore looks like!
That being said, you can't just assume the guy does have low IQ or whatever so rendering the argument moot. I mean they can't all be idiots otherwise how come the world still has a drug problem? Its not like hiring Mr Bean to do the drug running.
Got proof that he is a retard than i'll say otherwise.
This argument has no merit whatsoeverOriginally posted by circleofwinter:Thailand could cancel an invitation and civil aviation cooperation talks becos of thaksin visiting singapore. What makes you think other countries might not do otherwise? with that reasoning you have, do you think we might as well abolish NS and lets not be silly since singapore has no resources and therefore no one will invade singapore? Rolling Eyes
Thaksin came here on his own free will. Not like we hung out a banner saying "WE ACCEPT OUSTED POLITICAL FIGURES".
(SideNote: Thaksin's family likes Singapore as his son visits my friend's comic store quite often)
And we can't deny him entry into Singapore technically because he's done nothing wrong here in Singapore.
Thailand and many other countries will keep on pursuing economic expansion with countries like Singapore that are considered "world-class".
Not doing so citing reasons like these would be quite mind boggling to the rest of the world.
Abolish NS? NS is also meant as a deterrence, along with the death penalty.
If (Touch Wood) we were to be invaded. We know the UN & US will intervene in some way. Sure i've been through NS and i hate it but in some way we need it.
I like to stress the point no one is really innocent.Originally posted by circleofwinter:fymk, no one says criminals should have more rights and others, nor tough laws are not necessary. But is it really to execute them and is capital punishment an effective deterrent? i mentioned that with some points in my previous post. No need to go into name calling and call AI retards when you hardly know them as an organization. What about those victims of sabotage and those who did not have a fair trial? what if they really turn out to be innocent? unlike those drug addicted users, nothing can save them once they died. What abt their lives? if Australia really start acting tough, i am sure they could solve the problem abt drugs in their country, just as i heard of rampant racism over there. I dunno if the police there are doing a good job but i am sure you does. So you think we should execute cigarette manufacturers and sellers as well?
And if you are so against it. Give us a really good alternative.
Better yet, how will you even solve the drug problem?
I don't think you really can. can you?
As for "unfair" trials and "innocent victims", i might sound a little harsh on this but i would say its bad luck for them.
If you talk about karma and all that surely i can argue about Fate.
If Fate decides this is to happen to them. Can you fight it?
Either way Innocent or Not, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As for cigarettes. I don't smoke and if a person chooses to smoke himself to death and give himself lung cancer. Thats his choice.
He can choose to quit through an assortment of ways like medication, therapy, etc.. so its not impossible
And thats a whole other argument. -
Community Service?Originally posted by iveco:How about community service?
Murderer = Jail + Hanging
Drug Trafficker = Community Service
Sound FAIR to the other inmates?
Its a analogy so who for someone who took it seriously and even tried to make it "funny".Originally posted by iveco:A rattlesnake has its weak points. It can be blown to bits with a grenade.
So lets all throw our heads back and say "Ha Ha Ha" -
Originally posted by Ignatiaus:
I've not specified any length of jail term. I believe the term should match the criminal, not the crime.
So you're in favor of locking him up for the rest of his days? Isn't that as good as a death sentence?
Hypothetically if i was caught for drugs. Between rotting in jail and hanging.
Having to avoid shower rape every day
Doing literally nothing every day
Looking out at a tiny window to the world you'll never see again everyday
Reading the same books over and over again everyday
Avoid being stabbed when you piss off another cell mate
[b]Against
Quick Death
[/b]
Nevertheless, why should we deprive a drug trafficker of the chance to make amends? How will snuffing out his life help? Is culling/snuffing out everything we deem "undesirable" really the best way to go about keeping order, or is it just the easiest? -
I like the Singapore law on Drugs. I wish we have a smilar law in US.
-
YEAH. U FUX WIF SILLYPORE, U DIE. DIE. DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
-
Look. when did I call anyone a retard? Amnesty yaps like crazy for the rights of CRIMINALS but I hardly see them take into any account of how the criminal affected the victims of criminal activity .Originally posted by circleofwinter:
fymk, no one says criminals should have more rights and others, nor tough laws are not necessary. But is it really to execute them and is capital punishment an effective deterrent? i mentioned that with some points in my previous post. No need to go into name calling and call AI retards when you hardly know them as an organization. What about those victims of sabotage and those who did not have a fair trial? what if they really turn out to be innocent? unlike those drug addicted users, nothing can save them once they died. What abt their lives? if Australia really start acting tough, i am sure they could solve the problem abt drugs in their country, just as i heard of rampant racism over there. I dunno if the police there are doing a good job but i am sure you does. So you think we should execute cigarette manufacturers and sellers as well?
I advocated to my organisation (and I will do it again) not to donate to them in any way because they are just a bunch of lawyers/policy advocates/journalists sitting on the ivory tower making moral judgements and yapping away as they do. They are a waste of resources. There are other organisations worth helping like Medicins Sans Frontiers and the Red Cross.
Rampant racism is for those who live in Australia to comment on - you don't live in Australia , you don't have to speculate on what you may think is happening because the fact remains that you don't know .
Nicotine is a legal substance. It does not create an addiction that takes away your mental capacity to make sound judgements as well as to the point of surrendering all necessities (food, clothing , a home) to smoke .
As everybody knows - when you travel , you do not take responsiblity for the luggage when a stranger or even when a close friend asks you to . It might contain anything from a firearm to a bomb . Lock your luggages up securely so that every single pocket will not have an special addition when you arrive. If you don't , you bear responsibility of what is in the bag because there is no other way to prove that the item belongs to someone else.
But you never quite did understand what I am saying - What about the rights of those victimised by drug addicts . drug traffickers and druglords?
You want to talk about how great AI is ....tell them to look those victims in the eye and preach about saving drug traffickers from hanging to mothers whose teenagers were destroyed with the first dose. Tell them to ask families of drug addicts whether the life of a drug trafficker is worth saving. Don't talk about morals when you don't see the result of illicit drugs upfront. -
U.S. drug law is terrible.Originally posted by JSV:I like the Singapore law on Drugs. I wish we have a smilar law in US. -
The crime should match the punishment for the criminal. That is why I am in favour of making the drug trafficker eat all his drugs to experience how it is like to overdose and make him withdraw so that he can appreciate the experienceof how difficult it is to quit. Hanging is too quick an easy death for him.Originally posted by spinsugar:I've not specified any length of jail term. I believe the term should match the criminal, not the crime.
Nevertheless, why should we deprive a drug trafficker of the chance to make amends? How will snuffing out his life help? Is culling/snuffing out everything we deem "undesirable" really the best way to go about keeping order, or is it just the easiest?
If he survives - he can go and make his amends. I am in full support of that. -
I don't give a hoot as to how Australians want to run their penal colony. I maintain that the majority of Singaporeans are for capital punishment. Every time we have a heinous crime involving child killers like Took, public opinion is strongly in favour for the death penalty.Originally posted by iveco:But according to Julian Mahon, more Australians are adverse to capital punishment ever since his client was hanged.
If I am not mistaken, Took's parents tried very hard to collect signatures at MRT stations asking for clemency. All they got were curses from the public who couldn't wait to see him hanged.
I do feel the police investigation system should be more transparent but the death penalty stays. -
No need for insults on a country , oxmush. There are plenty of discussions about the capital punishment for that Viet guy.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I don't give a hoot as to how Australians want to run their penal colony. I maintain that the majority of Singaporeans are for capital punishment. Every time we have a heinous crime involving child killers like Took, public opinion is strongly in favour for the death penalty.
If I am not mistaken, Took's parents tried very hard to collect signatures at MRT stations asking for clemency. All they got were curses from the public who couldn't wait to see him hanged.
I do feel the police investigation system should be more transparent but the death penalty stays.
Although the government stance is to attempt to get it commuted to a jail sentence for its own citizens, you still have people who disagree. I think 2 australians actually volunteered to hang him themselves for making a bad name of Australia and a lot of Aussies I know actually did support the death sentence because they thought he was a stupid ba$tard who broke the rule of a sovereign nation deliberately. It was published about the 2 volunteer executioners in the Australian newspaper. -
Originally posted by fymk:
uh huh
Look. when did I call anyone a retard? Amnesty yaps like crazy for the rights of CRIMINALS but I hardly see them take into any account of how the criminal affected the victims of criminal activity .
I advocated to my organisation (and I will do it again) not to donate to them in any way because they are just a bunch of lawyers/policy advocates/journalists sitting on the ivory tower making moral judgements and yapping away as they do. They are a waste of resources. There are other organisations worth helping like Medicins Sans Frontiers and the Red Cross.Originally posted by fymk:
You think of them of them as crazy yappers and hardly see them take into any account of how the criminal affected the victims of criminal activity but let me
Amnesty International only yabbers like a retard...
ask you this question i repeated earlier: how well do you really know AI? have you ever worked with them before? do you come into conclusions that they just a bunch . of lawyers/policy advocates/journalists sitting on the ivory tower making moral judgements and wasting unnecessary resources just simply because you disagree with some of what they said? how about you view them with a fair and unbiased attitude before jumping into conclusions?Originally posted by fymk:
http://www.megalink.net/~dale/quitcigs.html
Nicotine is a legal substance. It does not create an addiction that takes away your mental capacity to make sound judgements as well as to the point of surrendering all necessities (food, clothing , a home) to smoke .
Cigarette smokers are just as much an addict as someone hooked on crack, cocaine, morphine or heroin....
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4163
Previous studies have suggested that the earlier someone starts smoking, the more likely they are to be life-long smokers and the more trouble they have in kicking their addiction....
The results indicate that early nicotine exposure can leave a lasting imprint on the brain....
so can you tell me are you qualified enough to judge that cigarette addiction cannot be compared to drug addiction? simple because cigarette is cheaper and easily available?But you never quite did understand what I am saying - What about the rights of those victimised by drug addicts . drug traffickers and druglords?
if i know a parent of a drug addict, i will tell him that i respect the rights of drug addicts and i agree drug traffickers should be severely punished, but
the punishment should not be death. Life imprisonment should be more than sufficient. If they are from third world country/ they got sabotaged into taking drugs, i won't comment further, otherwise i would have told him that drug addicts are also at fault for trying to take drugs
simply because its cool. At the very least putting right and wrong aside, drug ttraffickers sell drug because they want to give their family and themselves a better life. Your son/daughter go to school, there is the newspaper, and he has you as your parents, and there is always the internet to warn you the dangers of taking drugs. Despite all the channels of info available to you, you CHOSE to take drugs simply because its COOL hip-hop and stuff? whos fucking fault is that? stop pushing all the blame to the drug traffickers and absolve all blame from your son or yourself, since you are responsible for your own child.Originally posted by fymk:As everybody knows - when you travel , you do not take responsiblity for the luggage when a stranger or even when a close friend asks you to . It might contain anything from a firearm to a bomb . Lock your luggages up securely so that every single pocket will not have an special addition when you arrive. If you don't , you bear responsibility of what is in the bag because there is no other way to prove that the item belongs to someone else.
now let me ask you how about you stare at the eyes of the drug addict's parents and tell them straight in their face even if their son is innocent/ got set-up by others without having a fair trial, it is his responsibility and fault and he deserves to be hanged? this is the second most important reason why
i think MANDATORY death penalty, not the dealth penalty itself, shld be abolished. Unlike murder, it is so easy to sabotage someone with drugs and you can say goodbye to that person's life. What happen if you accidentally fall asleep and someone slip drugs into the bottom compartment of your luggage fill to the brim with all kinds of clothes or whatever? with the kind of judical system in sg, can you ensure that every drug trafficker is guilty and all of them have a fair trial?
the most important reason why i think MANDATORY death penalty should be abolished is because i don't want to see singapore suffering a backlash from executing foreigners. Ignatiaus, i brought up the thaksin issue to show that unlike singapore, other countries actually have balls and power to do what they want to do. The thaksin issue itself is completely irrelevant. At least i am glad Singapore did not incur the wrath of the germans.
http://omekanahuria.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_omekanahuria_archive.html
Charge of Ms Julia Bohl reduced after the German ambassador and government had mounted a diplomatic campaign on her behalf, meeting several senior Singaporean ministers in the process. Within months several of the charges were dropped and the amount of drugs she was accused of carrying was reduced from 687g to 281g....."impurities" huh? only god himself will know. Some singaporeans are unhappy that their own locals do not get such treatment, so to be fair, imo the best alternative is to change mandatory death penalty for drug trafficking to life imprisonment. I could hardly careless if someone got executed unless it involves me, but i fear of suffering from a backlash if something like this happens again, since i am a singaporean living in singapore. -
this is evidence of the failure of the yellow ribbon project.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I don't give a hoot as to how Australians want to run their penal colony. I maintain that the majority of Singaporeans are for capital punishment. Every time we have a heinous crime involving child killers like Took, public opinion is strongly in favour for the death penalty.
If I am not mistaken, Took's parents tried very hard to collect signatures at MRT stations asking for clemency. All they got were curses from the public who couldn't wait to see him hanged.
I do feel the police investigation system should be more transparent but the death penalty stays.
have u ever done something wrong, and hurt someone such that you regretted it?
if you say yes, you're either lying or you're a young kid who hasnt experienced life.
When was the last time you were willing to repent so badly, but no one gave you a chance?
Many of these criminals come from the wrong background and recieved wrong education. period.
I'm sure that if they were brought up in any regular singaporean family, they would turn out like anyone of us.
Are we going to kill them off just because they grew up differently from you and i?
What we should be doing is to temporarily confine them, give them a second chance, and hopefully reintegrate them into society.
We are not animals. We dont kill off someone just because he has stepped into our territory.
If everyone were to make decisions based on human instincts and have their lives goverened by human emotions such as hate and revenge, we might as well go live in the jungle.
The deterance argument is utter bullshit.
There is already evidence to show that the existance of the death penalty doesn not deter such crimes from taking place.
Which is more effective? Having someone about to be hanged walk into a drug rehab centre and give a talk? Or send someone who has undergone rehab to give a speech about his expericne?
The former might create a climate of fear within a few of them.. but the root of the problem is still there and they would probably turn to other crimes, resulting in a viscous cycle.
an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. -
Everyone has done something wrong and has one way or another which in turn hurt someone. Its called a chain reaction!Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:this is evidence of the failure of the yellow ribbon project.
have u ever done something wrong, and hurt someone such that you regretted it?
if you say yes, you're either lying or you're a young kid who hasnt experienced life.
Of course everyone regrets a wrong action that affects someone else
Then who are you blaming for their wrong education and wrong background?Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:When was the last time you were willing to repent so badly, but no one gave you a chance?
Many of these criminals come from the wrong background and recieved wrong education. period.
I'm sure that if they were brought up in any regular singaporean family, they would turn out like anyone of us.
Us Singaporeans who choose to uphold our own law?
Or the person's govt who choose to overlook them and continue being corrupt?
Don't get angry at the Executioner. Get angry at the parent country that raises such people to become criminals.
If you have such a bleeding heart for them, why don't you fly over there and be a missionary?
Another poorly thought out argument:Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:Are we going to kill them off just because they grew up differently from you and i?
What we should be doing is to temporarily confine them, give them a second chance, and hopefully reintegrate them into society.
If you think they are poorly educated and all that. If you jail them then years later they come out.
What do you think they'll do? they'll probably fall back into the same pattern.
If you talk about re-education, how much does it work? I mean do Govt give them a house and money after jail? Of course not.
How do you integrate a person who only knows criminal activities all his life?
Another stupid argument. We do not make such judgments on instinct.Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:We are not animals. We dont kill off someone just because he has stepped into our territory.
If everyone were to make decisions based on human instincts and have their lives goverened by human emotions such as hate and revenge, we might as well go live in the jungle.
We do not wantonly kill anyone for no reason. The courts are not governed by human emotions but by laws and regulations that have been around since God passed the 10 commandments to Moses.
No one said the death penalty nullifies the drug trade altogether.Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:The deterance argument is utter bullshit.
There is already evidence to show that the existance of the death penalty doesn not deter such crimes from taking place.
That said drugs still make it through because of couriers who in a way are not afraid of being caught and even death. They obviously do it for the money.
If you set littering penalty to hang to death, you'll see a LARGE DIP in littering but i won't say its 100% but it'll work for most people.
Deterrence is not Eradication
This is another stupid argument. We're talking about traffickers and you're mentioning about addicts who go to rehab.Originally posted by OO_OO_OO:Which is more effective? Having someone about to be hanged walk into a drug rehab centre and give a talk? Or send someone who has undergone rehab to give a speech about his expericnece
The former might create a climate of fear within a few of them.. but the root of the problem is still there and they would probably turn to other crimes, resulting in a viscous cycle.
an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
What? They have trafficker rehab now?
If you put the fear of death into a trafficker and the fear of jail into a trafficker.
Which do you think is more effective? Fair enough to say they'll turn to lesser crimes but at least for you they won't hanged for it.
So basically after reading and analyzing your "argument"
I'd fail you if this was a class
LRN2SPELL
LRN2READ&THINK
LRN2ARGUEWITHOUTTALKINGOUTOFYOURASS -
If a person chooses to traffic drugs or engage in recreational drug use willingly. That person no longer qualifys for the Innocent statusOriginally posted by circleofwinter:now let me ask you how about you stare at the eyes of the drug addict's parents and tell them straight in their face even if their son is innocent/ got set-up by others without having a fair trial, it is his responsibility and fault and he deserves to be hanged? this is the second most important reason why
i think MANDATORY death penalty, not the dealth penalty itself, shld be abolished. Unlike murder, it is so easy to sabotage someone with drugs and you can say goodbye to that person's life. What happen if you accidentally fall asleep and someone slip drugs into the bottom compartment of your luggage fill to the brim with all kinds of clothes or whatever? with the kind of judical system in sg, can you ensure that every drug trafficker is guilty and all of them have a fair trial?
If you say if someone gets sabotaged by your reasoning, there won't be a trafficking problem, there will be a sabotage problem.
How many people in Singapore have ever contested to being innocent in such a case? Why would a trafficker risk huge money in putting drugs in a bag of a person he doesn't know.
Even if lets say the person was innocent in the first place when he got sabotaged. What argument would you have to defend him? What evidence will you provide to the courts to save this person?
We may have gotten backlash from Australian citizens before but not the Govt.Originally posted by circleofwinter:the most important reason why i think MANDATORY death penalty should be abolished is because i don't want to see singapore suffering a backlash from executing foreigners. Ignatiaus, i brought up the thaksin issue to show that unlike singapore, other countries actually have balls and power to do what they want to do. The thaksin issue itself is completely irrelevant. At least i am glad Singapore did not incur the wrath of the germans.
They can't stay angry at us for upholding our own law.
So far no Governmental system has been outraged directly by our Laws because if they contest such an issue, they'll know it'll bite them back in the ass when our own citizen is convicted over in their own country if we choose to contest it.
Its each other's policy not to question each country's laws for the sake of diplomatic ties.
Read my above post on Life Jail Vs Death Sentence.Originally posted by circleofwinter:Charge of Ms Julia Bohl reduced after the German ambassador and government had mounted a diplomatic campaign on her behalf, meeting several senior Singaporean ministers in the process. Within months several of the charges were dropped and the amount of drugs she was accused of carrying was reduced from 687g to 281g....."impurities" huh? only god himself will know. Some singaporeans are unhappy that their own locals do not get such treatment, so to be fair, imo the best alternative is to change mandatory death penalty for drug trafficking to life imprisonment. I could hardly careless if someone got executed unless it involves me, but i fear of suffering from a backlash if something like this happens again, since i am a singaporean living in singapore.
Then imagine yourself. Which do you pick? Hypothetically speaking of course -
Still, the hanging of Took Leng How did not bring much closure. Many people still think there were some unanswered questions. Huang Shuying herself is questionable.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I don't give a hoot as to how Australians want to run their penal colony. I maintain that the majority of Singaporeans are for capital punishment. Every time we have a heinous crime involving child killers like Took, public opinion is strongly in favour for the death penalty.
If I am not mistaken, Took's parents tried very hard to collect signatures at MRT stations asking for clemency. All they got were curses from the public who couldn't wait to see him hanged.
I do feel the police investigation system should be more transparent but the death penalty stays.